Download my results here: docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vQn26pgEWCn3ltGXISeCdxuPblN4wj7IBSASOVsO5WOP_DyDxGpKGcTj5-FiDoMRdZqINlLZLROjQKZ/pubhtml And check out the original cyclone shootout here: kzread.info/dash/bejne/X3eol7Rvj8XQaJM.html

@cjhification

5 жыл бұрын

Thought your testing procedure was good, you kept the hose in the same place on the meter, and made sure to do controls too with just bare kit.

I watched this video before buying my CT Cyclone, so I knew what I was getting into when I got it. I also picked up an airflow meter to do some testing of my own & found a 27% drop in suction when running it through the 27mm hose. So, I started do ing some testing & experimenting. I added some tape to act as gaskets to the perimeter of the 90º elbow where it seats into the lid, as well as the bottom of the conical piece that seats down into the Systainer. These two modifications were able to bring the total CFM loss down to only 14%. I'll be searching for a thin foam tape to make for a more permanent gasket, but it would be great if Festool developed their own proper gasket set, as it improves things dramatically.

@christiangogol6658

2 жыл бұрын

I also built a testing apparatus and have been improving efficiency. I'd like to implement your modifications and test it. Care to share any more details?

@julianweiser9985

2 жыл бұрын

Wow, especially in this pricerange its a shame they didnt construct proper gaskets.

@boxoffluffys

2 жыл бұрын

It’s a brilliant separator I’m a professional floor sander . Use some tape to seal a couple leaks and run it all day long on big machinery . Small footprint in vehicle.

Hi Mr Wood Whisperer - interesting review, just came across it - bit late. When the CT Cyclone came out, I bought one as well to use it and to compare it against my Oneida cyclone. Instead of a wind speed measurement instrument, which I tried as well, I have used a tool to measure pressure - which I think is a bit more reliable and it definitely produces numbers which can be reproduced. To cut a story short of many evenings of measurements and comparisons between cyclones and vacuum cleaners - the conclusion was that you really need to keep your filters clean, because that is where you really loose pressure. Not so much the 90 degrees angles (which I expected) and not so much the cyclone type. Of course hose diameter makes a difference and so does hose length, but the largest influence on the efficiency of the whole system, that lies in the filters. So the new Festool midi vacuum cleaner with the filter-cleaning handle on the outside - that is a good improvement.

I love these reviews because this pushes the manufacturers to think outside the box and make improvements. You carry the mantel well Marc by being a voice for these comparisons and pushing these guys to try harder to make quality products that cater to the woodworkers needs, especially when they ask for a pretty penny. Thanks for doing this!

No one seems to mention pressure drop. Thanks for bringing that up. Great video. Thanks for sharing.

I always appreciate testing like this. Good stuff.

Nice video and test. Science without over complications. Thanks!!!

I too have had mine since they came out. It’s a great bag saver. I use mine with my CT-Sys which has a notoriously small bag. I now change the CT-Sys bag once every 9 to 12 months. Before I changed it monthly or more on a big project. With the new larger capacity, the CT-Sys is now my dedicated “portable” Dust Extractor. I use it with all appropriate Festool tools and for clean up. I just remodeled a laundry room and bath room and the CT-Sys with Cyclone was my only Dust Extractor for sawing, routing, sanding, and even Kapex duty. My CT-36 with Dust Dust Deputy now stays in the shop.

@baja1980s

Жыл бұрын

yeah i just picked up this cyclone from Festool and cant wait to use it. I was wondering how often I'm gonna need to change the Bag in my ct26... wow you say 9-12 months!! that's a heck of a great deal of money savings in filter bags...

super helpful as always. Sure do appreciate your candor and thoughts!

What I would really like to see is a compact system by someone that utilizes a cyclone separator that is integrated into a short vacuum unit. There's no need for 4-6 gallons of debris storage in most shop vacs if you're using a separator so I'd rather have something that the total height can live under a bench or miter station.

I went with the Oneida a while ago for the CT vacs. It works very well, little drop in suction.

I was considering this purchase but after the review the hesitation I was feeling seems justified. Thanks!

Surprised to see you doing a Festool review after hearing about your opinions about reviewing products your podcast but I do enjoy your take on these comparisons.

Nice review. I have the Dust Deputy you reviewed in the past, mounted the bucket to a small Harbor Freight furniture dolly ($7.99) and it fits perfectly, also provides stability far superior to the plastic wheels that come in the kit.

I am sure I told you this in the past, but you have such an amazing voice! You really need to get a side job as an audiobook reader!

I'm a little surprised to see you do a product review Marc. It seems lately you shy away from product review videos. However, I'm glad you made this video. It's full of a lot of good useful information.

THANK! YOU! And, PLEASE test the Oneida as well.

This is not for a casual users, got slammed a lot in the reviews here, but I use it with the festool drywall sander and it is amazing. There really aren't a lot of options to collect drywall dust without ruining your vacuum as the dust clogs your filters and overheats the vacuum. So money well spent for me. Good review, but left out some uses.

Marc, as always I appreciate your honesty. That’s very important. I currently use a Dust Deputy with a small hose with my Festool vac. The Festool might be a good option for me if I can find a way to justify the cash to but one. When I go in that direction I’ll need to look closely at the Dust Deputy and Festool options. Thanks.

I've had great luck with it for over a year. Before I had it, drywall dust in the non-AC dust extractor would clog the bag and destroy suction in minutes. Now, nearly no dust makes it to the bag.

Great little review, as always.

Your testing procedure is greate ! Thanks for the video

I bought it and so far it works fine. Not sure how long I'll get that back in savings on bags as I go through maybe half dozen bags a year now. Having finished a new shop and have more clients that will ramp up a bit but, I have a dust collector now and use a table saw a lot more. Time will tell. It is a good well built accessory.

Thanks for this, Marc

After watching this video I got an idea. You have your dust collector and you also have your dust extractor like these for small tools as you know large system is not that great for hand tool dust collecting applications. So, I bought a Kirby vacuum cleaner motor head which has an impeller that is separated from the motor, which has a separate assembly to get cooled. The impeller sucks the dust and within few inches exhausts it to a bag via 3 inch pipe. I’ve removed the bag and connected the three inch hose to a 4 inch hose to my large shop three stage dust extractor with cyclonic action. This way I have one place for all the dust from the small and large tools, none of the filter expense of expensive small systems like festool and other, takes very little space and it’s in-line install setup for under 100 bucks. Awesome video as always very informative. Thank you.

Very interesting, thank you for posting this.

Cool to see in action, thanks! Not trying to be a troll here, but for me, shop vac cyclone performance is based on suction power (vs airflow) as that is what helps me pull dust through my tools. The second is how well it separates the fines to keep the filter clean (and thus longer lasting suction). And with all that said, I admit I haven't tested many out to have an educated opinion.

Would just like to add ,, I use mine on a syst vac , and no loss of suction at all. It fits neatly in the van as it's a systainer... if I didn't have this I would be emptying the tiny bag every 5 min on a router table or thicknesser..

You did well-Thank you. I will build a another simple working cart to combine my Festool Middi and Oneida Dust Deputy above it.

I just saw a review that showed the Festoool cyclone suck up half a container of sawdust with only 2.5% finer dust left in the lower unit. Seems to be working pretty good to me.

Thanks for your response.

Nice rewiew, thanks!

Thanks for the review. It might be obvious in your shop but in the video at a 1.07 it isn't clear if the exhaust goes through the central column from the bottom or from above the horizontal baffle into the column not shown on the opposite side to the intake. Winston Moy had a similar CNC made design that the exhaust went into the column sides. A thien baffle has a 270 drop slot but this is in-between in concept.

I bought my first Festool tool last week, a TS 75 with a track long enough to cut a 4x8 sheet of plywood. I haven't even used it yet, but you can tell a lot of thought and precision was put into it, the fact it comes with it's own hard shell box alone is a huge step up. I think it will be Festool all the way from here, slowly though, they are pricey. But I've learned that if I save my money and buy something that is known high quality I won't have to buy it again any time soon. Thanks for the review.

Have you tried out the Dustopper? Works with standard big box buckets. Performs about the same as dust deputy in suction loss and dust separation. However its vertical footprint is tiny compared to the deputy, the small one even.

Home Depot's Dustopper with some insulation foam tape added to the lid can't be beat at $45 all included (buck and tape).

$375 for a rubbermaid bin, a tortilla holder and mid-size plastic toolbox.

@markf.4063

5 жыл бұрын

That's what it looked like!

@SDMacMan

5 жыл бұрын

"tortilla holder" hahaha

@nualln

5 жыл бұрын

*Slaps roof* "This bad boy can hold so many tortillas."

@xXAnchormonXx

5 жыл бұрын

Allen Arrick lol too good

@XxPackerManxX

3 жыл бұрын

Bags are ridiculously expensive so in the long run it's a money saver. Stick to your Harbor Freight 👍🏻

Thanks for the info! 👍👊

Cool idea thanks for showing it off for us. But it took 5 minutes to figure out it wasnt norm talking to me. Digging that beard!

@woodwhisperer

5 жыл бұрын

Haha thanks

The suction loss is coming from the part that goes from the center of the cyclone to the connector hose. Looks like it's only an inch, inch and a half in diameter.

Thank you Marc! Your reviews and tool feedback are always on point. Thank you for just giving the facts in plain english.

On the plus side, you can probably store small tools/accessories in the dead space of that container...?

Well done! Good research work

Good stuff... keep it coming!

Nicely done 👍👍.

Interesting cyclone design... Can't remember where I saw that before...

@zawiasc

3 жыл бұрын

Germans concentration camps i think

I noticed the same issue on drop in suction but I gained back what suction I perceived to have lost by ditching the short 27mm hose supplied with the cyclone kit and using a 50mm hose cut down to the length of the short supplied hose. In your test you used a long 50mm hose. There still is a slight decrease In cubic foot per sec/min but if you then upgrade the tool end hose to 36mm hose all together you end up with more cubic foot than you had with the basic set up. Basically ditch the shirt 27mm gap hose and ditch the tool side 27mm if you want superior sucking for Kapex, router, track saw etc… If you are only using sanders the cyclone is fine with the 27mm hoses because you need to turn down the suction anyway or the vacuum pulls the sander into you work surface and causes sanding abrasive cut circles/swirl marks. I have 3 of these set ups. One for Kaypex, one for sanding and one for high chip creating tools like the router. All gave the cyclones on them all on the original provided bag.

I love your unbiased reviews and this one is no exception. Personally - if I could afford, and justify buying one of these - I would walk away from the purchase feeling that I had just let go of $375 for a plastic box with some plastic bits in it, while the cost of e.g. the Festool CT SYS CLEANTEC, with a 1000W motor and all sorts of technology and accessories costs only $20 more at $395. I think that most people will agree that while Festool do produce some very high quality tools, but there is a quite big snob factor connected to the brand name too, which, as in this case, allows them to charge a ridiculous amount of money for almost nothing.......and, in many cases, get away with it too!

@bighands69

5 жыл бұрын

+J F That is not the reason Festool accessories cost so much. They employ about 700 people and have revenues of about $350 million. SO everytime they produce something new for their tool system it is going cost money and they are not going to be making a large profit on the accessories either.

@_J.F_

5 жыл бұрын

@@bighands69 I am not sure how the number of employees, and their revenues, has anything to do with the asking price of $375 for this cyclone plastic box? Besides, all other tool producers who invent, design and produce their own tools also have employees, and of course revenues too. Where is the difference? I agree that superior quality obviously cost more to produce, and therefor also cost more to purchase for the end user. I also agree that a lot of Festool's tools are indeed very high quality, well designed, and produced with fine tolerances and made to last. This cyclone box is, however, just a "plastic box" that has clearly been developed on the basis of the existing systainer box. In my mind this does not justify an asking price similar to that of an entire vacuum system with a motor, intricate motor parts and electrics, along with a lot of accessories. If you decided to buy an above average quality and expensive lawn mower, an then had to buy the grass collector separately, and that cost almost the same as the lawn mower, I don't think you would be smiling all the way home with your new lawn mower priced grass collector.

Excellent. Great to know.

Great review, thanks for taking the time to do so. Each brand seem to do an adequate job for most small tools like you said, but I think my main concern was how wobbly and breakable the Festool system looked all stacked up and clipped together like that. One accidental knock from manoeuvring a two by four for instance and it looks like the money spent would instantly turn into a sorry pile of cracked and broken plastic! I expected something far more solid looking from those guys. Thanks for the advice and information.

nice review

On a jobsite for a one day job, I think it would be practical to keep the dust enclosed in the system. No bags or buckets and less cleanup. But in a stationary shop I would definately use the money on a dust collection system. You can get a lot of pipe for those money

thanks for review

Nice review. I see you changed the festool mitresaw to bosch mitre saw to a dewalt mitre saw. Any reason why? Would love to hear. Thanks

I’m tinkin Festool have ripped people off for years, they do have some unique engineering advances over competitors however a little vacuum cleaner with connectable dust hoses & hyper inflated prices make it difficult to purchase, nice review 🍻👍

@bighands69

5 жыл бұрын

Festool tools are built as an entire system. If you have a festool saw then you would use the festool dust extractor so that you can properly use its switching and dust extraction. You only think it is expensive because you have no idea what to use the tools for. Mafell is about 3 times more expensive than festool.

@ThekiBoran

5 жыл бұрын

It's only a rip off if you're forced to buy it. But we live in a mostly free market economy so you actually have no justification for bitching. Are you a cashier at 7-Eleven? I have about $5G in Festool stuff and based on the piss poor after purchase service of Festool USA I'm unlikely to buy any of their tools when it comes time to replace them except for their sanders and the domino tools.

As a hobbyist, my rationale for Festool is time savings. The Domino has been amazing in that regard and has not only saved me some of the precious little time I get to go into the shop (I work full-time) it has also allowed me to do some pretty creative things I would have been hard-pressed to do before. Their Quad drive drill is a monster. I have a Dust Deputy over a shop-vacuum (a la Jay Bates) and it works great, but I was hoping for good reviews for the Festool Cyclone so I could have something lower to the ground and easier to move. (Or I could just put better wheels on the shop-vac cart...) Thanks, Marc, for another informative video!

Thanks for the test info. Is there a screen around the tube that leads to the vacuum? I.E. the tube that is in the center of the cyclone?

I've been using the festool cyclone for a year now and I am extremely satisfied with it. I have not seen any problems. Only benefits so far.

@AJNpa80

10 ай бұрын

But do you have the cfms to drive the turbo nozzle beater bar which requires the larger hose? I just bought this when they couldn't tell me which size connection to the vacuum it had. Saw the thin hose, though I'll use one of my other fat whip hoses, opened the top, has an inch thick black plastic duct. It can't drive my festool beater bar brush on a 7m hose. How could they make it without at least the mid sized hose in mind? Dropping to the small sander hose from the start is a major drop in volume. I run planex, renofix, both larger hose, both create bulk, as well as cleaning attachments. Guess I'll go back to sweeping more to save my filters and picking up the things I won't have lift for. They should at least offer another lid\duct for larger hose. It's gonna have to go back as it fails at 80% of what I do. I cat handle the rotex with their proper hose but that's it. Takes forever to fill a bag with one of them anyway. So it's just added bulk and complexity for reduced performance in my operation. Mid hose even would have been great.

this is really interesting thanks.

thanks for sharing the video

Would it be possible to test air quality when using each one? Festool is known for dust containment, so I'm wondering how it would stack up to the Clearvue. In such a test, using the best filter in each one. One reason to buy Festool would be to keep the fines at a minimum if there was a big difference. I don't have a Festool vac, just a Ridgid with a Clearvue and it works really well for visible dust. I've always wondered about the fines, though.

Thanks for the review Marc, I have the Oneida for Festool, was wondering how the F-for-F stacked up. The cone on the Oneida is about 11" high, with the router and miter saw I have not noticed a big loss in performance. The Oneida uses a large hose from the cyclone to the CT, with one straight and one 90-deg fitting. The separation is very good, very little dust in the vac, it's all captured in the Oneida bag. thanks again, cheers...

@allenkream6565

4 жыл бұрын

Peter Parfiit showed 98% capture od sample shop dust with the Festool attachment. Hard to believe Oneida could signiicantly better.

When you have your Cyclone and you have a liner in it does it suck the bag inward a little until you get a couple inches if saw dust in it. or should the plastic liner suck to the walls of the container. I just purchased one and installed it on my CT36 and that is what its doing.

I own a black systainer style Dust Deputy that is connected to my Festool CT 36. The thing that interests me about this cyclone is the clear containment bin. I cannot see when my Dust Deputy is full. Does this one stay clear enough to tell when it's full or does it cloud up?

So I think movement of air by cubic feet would need to be calculated to really get an idea of quality. So the speed alone is one factor. I think speed is good for machines that try to "throw" the dust far and the speed catches it before it flies away.

How would you compare this to a wall mounted dust extractor in terms of efficiency and dust extraction?

great video

Given the need for airflow to collect from machines that usually produce the larger chips, that separators are meant to pick up to save filling bags, that drop using the 36mm hose really makes it a bit redundant for woodworking. Shame. I wanted to want it. Thanks for the review. This is the only one I’ve found looking at that airflow. The suction pressure tests only test how well the drop box seals work. Which can usually be fixed easily but not airflow restrictions

it is necessary to use the larger clear containers or can the bottom piece serve as the catch?

There's a fairly new solution that's also low profile that's sold at Home Depot for $40 - Dustopper. I can mount the bucket + Dustopper on top of my Festool vac and achieve the same results.

I have the Oneida Super Dust Deputy that you mentioned at the end. They released a second version (the one I have) that is made out of anti static material and I notice a loss, but like you said for tool use it isn’t a big deal. I like the Festool version’s ability to have a systainer on top, but don’t feel the need to replace mine (yet!). Thanks to doing the review, I know we were wondering how the Tupperware would perform! 😀

@woodwhisperer

5 жыл бұрын

Good news is if you don't want to use the cyclone, you can always store your Sunday leftovers in it.

@PeterBoyes76

5 жыл бұрын

The Wood Whisperer leftover brisket!

@RJ_Taylor

5 жыл бұрын

I have the Oneida too. After seeing Marc’s review, it occurs to me that the biggest advantage of the Festool design might just be that transparent collector bin. Sure would be nice to know how full it is without risking a face full of fines.

@Ziflinz

5 жыл бұрын

I would say that's crazy talk, but you might have given them a new idea for a Festool warming drawer.

I have the Oneida Dust Deputy that sits on top of the CT and I’ve been mostly happy with it. I get almost no material whatsoever into the CT. My one complaint is that the CT clips don’t hold it very steady and it comes loose pretty often, but, not having my CT full of dust and constantly changing HEPA filters, it’s been worth the tradeoff. However, recently the hood on my CT 26 fell apart and by “fell apart“ I mean the plastic disintegrated. Festool said that happens, especially in hot, humid conditions, which we have here on the Mississippi Gulf Coast. I ordered a new hood and the design has changed and now the Festool clips don’t interact properly with the Oneida collection box whatsoever. I’m probably going to have to fasten it with bungee cords.

I would like to know if this system works with fine dust, like concrete dust or fine wood sanding.

For me as a trade person, works better an long life filter bag, which I’m using for couple years now. I don’t see myself spending another few hundred dollars just to do the same thing. CT 26 with long life filter bag is the best! 🙂

Have to say I'm super happy with my Festool cyclone... also, all my Festool hoses are super smooth - zero ridges - surely this would make a big difference? Also worth mentioning that the festool hoses are very clever in that they actually taper from wide to narrow along their length to minimise any suction loss from reducers. And... I'd already bought the thing before seeing this. ;-)

I kind of freaked out when I got mine and noticed the suction loss. I have a CT48 hooked up to the CMS router table and I want to say there’s is a reduction in collection. I see debris on the table and on the floor and even in the dust hood. It’s a fairly new system with a fresh bag so I’m unsure if I should be using the festool cyclone with the router table or just go straight into their regular bag. Anyone got any tips ?

Please forgive my ignorance but my ct 36 has a bag inside it that catches all the rubbishy and sawdust, when it fill up I simply empty it. I’m a little confused as to why I would need so ting like this ?

I see you now have a DeWalt miter saw, I was wondering why you didn't have the Bosch glide anymore, is it a suitable saw for making tables and bedroom sets? Is it a good saw or a flop? I am considering buying the Bosch and getting into their line since they do have a lot of things in their system and things coming out in 2019 that seems to rival Festool for a lot less money.

Oh my how years go by. Papa pasta, you're starting to look old. Seems that my reflection has somewhat changed too 🤔 Anyways, keep up the good work!

Just bought it after my preseparators were spitting out puffs of dust when my festool punches the filter. Bought it quick. Can't believe there's such a small restriction. I need to use the larger hose for several items. The times we need a separator we're using larger diameter hose for bulk dirt. The grinder, vacuum scraper etc. Can't believe it drops to the small hose. Can't use their turbo nozzle beater bar with it. If I can only use it with the standard sanders which will take a month to fill up with running full out what's the point of the extra bulk and trouble? Trying to think how I could rig a thing to run 50 mil hose to the separator and make a part of the same diameter to switch in for the black lid thing. I need to use at least a 36 mil hose as I am running a planex and a renofix, grinders and want to vacuum bulk dirt without filling my filter bags. This defeats the purpose. Harbor freight just came out with a dust deputy knockoff for a bucket. Just need a thick bucket. Oneida also came with a separator that rides on festool. Just can't put your vacuum nozzle box on top of that.

Where did you get that shirt Marc? I was the Art Director on that God of War for the first 2.5 years of the project. I have been watching your videos for years. Worlds collide. Keep up the great work.

@erikjakobsen1889

5 жыл бұрын

Christopher Sutton hahahahaha! From me. Good to see you here Chris. Miss you bro!

I used an old festool sustainer box as a base for my homemade cyclone. Way cheaper and just as convenient.

Have you seen a clone of the Festool dust separator that fits on top the CT?

Two things I noticed on the product. First the fittings on the inside are not tight. There is not even a gasket to provide a tight seal. So you may be loosing some suction there. Secondly the the internal hose from the cyclone to the external port appears to be small. So your airflow is going to be restricted no mater how big of a hose you connect to it.

Despite them adding a bottom section. The clear section is not attached to it so the assembly just wobbles! I actually wonder just how stable this is?

Pretty damn sweet cyclone thingie there

Good video, Marc! Interesting that the 90 degree turns really didn't affect it. That surprised me.

Hey Marc, good test! 👍Looks like both systems sucked! (scientifically) I wish Festool made toothbrushes! I'd take out a small loan and buy a few! 😆

Hey Marc, I won't say anything bad about your testing process. It's more than I have done and you explained it as well as you could without taking us down a one-hour rant about air pressure, airflow, and whatever else some people have thrown at us.

I was really hoping for Muppet Marc to make his tool review debut ;)

Hey! What about about DUSTOPPER Home Depot has? We swear by it at work. It takes a regular bucket as the body. No real assembly required & it’s only $20. I don’t know if it compares but I’d like it if you could add it to your testing. I’m interested in how it compares.

What happened to the Bosch Glide Saw I thought you liked it?

I see the problem, the tubes in side are small and causing a restriction.

Would love to see a review of the Oneida system for Festool!

@okafka5446

5 жыл бұрын

kzread.info/dash/bejne/jIx6xdCDj6-7ps4.html

Great machine

Good review. I like it. I think the problem is Festool in the narrow pipes of the cyclone. Therefore, on a large hose, you lose a lot of power. It is sad. I wanted this for myself. I will think now. Thank.

@bighands69

5 жыл бұрын

It is not a problem because their machines have perfect dust extraction. It is a problem for people that will be trying to use this set up with other tools that may have poor dust extraction.

What I would like to see is the difference in the quantity of material collected, like you did in the older cyclone shoot out with the CV Mini and the Dust deputy. Only a very minute amount was in the Oneida bucket and I didn't see any at all in the Clearview bucket. That is the whole purpose of these cyclone separators

@woodwhisperer

5 жыл бұрын

That is the purpose, but if the unit has a dramatic loss of suction, separation is a moot point. unless you’re OK with losing suction. I’m not. I’ll have to wind up selling this unit.

Good review. I bought one of these a couple of years ago, and the suction does suffer, although as you say, the CT Cyclone still does its job perfectly. Using the anemometer won' give you meaningful results, as with the smaller hose you will have a higher velocity airflow, and with the larger hose, a lower velocity BUT more than likely an increase in volume throughput. Need to measure cubic ft min / litres per second to get a decent comparison 🙂

@GageDrums

Жыл бұрын

He wasnt comparing the differences between hoses it was to compare if the drop was more significant depending on the hose used

I have the Oneida super dust deputy that fits the Festool ct26 exactly. It is great and cheaper than this one. If I didn't have the Oneida already I might consider this.

People saying for a hobby woodworking the quality of Festool is worth it but .... I'm not convinced yet. Some of the tools are several factors more expensive. Now the dust collection, which is incredibly important I think for a hobbyist, is where Festool starts to earn their $$. I consider Festool specifically for that. Though I haven't been able to justify the cost for myself yet.