Hi, Paul Woodadge, WW2TV host here - So much to take in from this show. I loved chatting to Ian. If you have enjoyed this show, please don't forget to click like, leave a comment for other viewers and if you have not done so already please SUSBSCRIBE so you don't miss our next streams. You can also become a member of this channel and support me financially here kzread.info/dron/UC1nmJGHmiKtlkpA6SJMeA.html. Links to any books discussed, WW2TV merchandise, our social media pages and other WW2TV shows to watch can all be found in the full KZread description. Lastly, my own book Angels of Mercy is always available online - more info here www.ddayhistorian.com/angels-of-mercy.html

This really is a must-watch channel if you're interested in WWII history & histography in any more than a superficial way. This channel doesn't do superficial. Yet another great episode by yet another very knowledgeable guest speaker.

My limited knowledge of what I know about some of the secret training facilities the Germans and Soviets had prior to the outbreak of war is now much more enhanced. Thank you Paul for having such a brilliant guest as Ian onboard to enlighten us. Amazing!

Your interviewees are almost always interesting, very often brilliant. . . but this episode and this sub-series have completely changed how I look at a subject I thought I knew pretty well. Thanks Woody and thanks to Ian.

@WW2TV

4 ай бұрын

Thanks very much

Another superb series by WW2TV: each Guest Historian exceptional in their expertise and knowledge, and the quality of content and presentation. WW2TV has shown us, once again, why it has become THE WWII Go-To Channel.

@loreleikomm5802

2 жыл бұрын

totally agree with you, Pam. I miss you on the livestream chats!

What a fascinating week this has been. Thanks paul and experts!

@WW2TV

2 жыл бұрын

Glad you enjoyed it

Some of most bizarre but interesting 'alliance'. Both sides learned a lot which helped in their later war of Annihilation with exceptional brutality

Germany thought Russia would be one of their provinces and Russia thought the other way around.

Thank you for this work. As addition: find a video "The Soviet Story 2008 - English subtitles". Must see as much people as possible.

Fascinating presentation!

This is really good episode.

Utterly fascinating!!

@WW2TV

2 жыл бұрын

Wasn't it though?

@jim99west46

2 жыл бұрын

@@WW2TV The Russians allowing a poison gas plant near Moscow says volumes.

An excellent thought provoking examination of a ideologicaly opposed partnership that suits both sides and ultimately prepares both for the inevitable showdown in the 40s

I didn’t know the extent of the cooperation between these two countries in the interwar period. The Molotov-Ribbentrop pact makes a bit more sense in that regard.

@PMMagro

Жыл бұрын

Both disliked the WW1 peace terms and wanted to revise them.

There's a clip on YT of Hitler speaking in confidence about his astonishment at Russian ordnance mid the Barbarossa campaign. Hitler was unaware he was being recorded. It's called the Hitler-Mannerheim Recording. If you haven't already, give it a listen. The focus of the video is to hear Hitler's normal speaking voice, as opposed to his bombastic public speaking (he sounds, funnily enough, like a middle aged reasonably intelligent Austrian) but what he's actually talking about is far more compelling.Thanks Paul and Ian for a fascinating discussion.

Without defending Germany, everybody forgetts the at least 200.000 Germans that starved to death between the Peace in 2018 and the end of versailles around six months later.

@briandenison2325

2 жыл бұрын

1918

Hello there folks. Excellent presentation of an overlooked aspect of WWII. I’m buying this book

This is as good as it get's! Thanks!

This was awesome. I heard before that the winter war sort of caused a rift between Moscow and Berlin but he made it sound like late 1940 was the pivotal time when Hitler decided the Soviets wanted too much and that war was going to happen, I had no idea it was around that time, imagine if the Soviets had joined the axis, very interesting

@stefanodadamo6809

Жыл бұрын

Hitler wanted to crush the Soviets since well before taking power.

Ian book is amazing...clearly with more details on german side as mentioned in the video. When I read it I finally appreciated the importance of Von Seeckt , way more than usual narrative starting later. Russian side I hope Ian will have the chance to seek more into archives , maybe less on Tucachevsky (he was not alone) and more on others . Paul is right on the other point about tech development (especially air) often overlooked , anyhow great book

Excellent discussion. Thank you.

@WW2TV

2 жыл бұрын

Glad you enjoyed it!

Another super interesting show all about the little known inter war period - multiple rabbit holes!!!

This is absolutely fascinating and insightful ! Thanks a lot! I am gonna buy the book - can't wait to read it!

Wow I agree with Paul if the book is a good as the presentation this would be a "Game Changer" and a must purchase. Thanks for the new insight into this period, I'm continually learning how much I don't know.

@WW2TV

2 жыл бұрын

You're very welcome!

The biggest thing I didn't know before watching this excellent talk is that there were serious negotiations for the Soviets to join the Axis after the successful division of Poland. Surely the Germans and Soviets would have eventually gone to war as long as Hitler and Stalin were both in power, but they might have conquered more countries before doing so. WW2 might have caused even more death and horror, which is difficult to imagine. Thankfully they didn't reach an agreement. This was a fascinating topic, yet also very grim. Poland could see their destruction coming and were powerless to prevent it. Also, millions died because both sides underestimated the danger the other side posed. Stalin apparently didn't believe the Nazis would invade the Soviet Union. The Nazis thought the Soviets were weaker and less technologically advanced than they actually were. The result was Barbarossa and the death and suffering of tens of millions. What can we learn from this? Assess your enemies realistically, don't underestimate them. Better to expect them to be stronger than they actually are and prepare for that. The Nazis were (thankfully) destroyed because they underestimated the Soviets and failed to prepare for a long war. They didn't see the Soviets as fully human. It still amazes me that they expected the Red Army to respond to the prospect of certain death after capture, by collapsing. Also, don't abandon good ideas simply because the source of those ideas is politically out of favor. How many Soviets died because they destroyed the field manuals written by a general killed in the purges? Perhaps a Red Army more competent and with sounder doctrine could have prevented the Nazis from advancing so far into the USSR in 1941, and then ended the war in Europe a year earlier, which would have saved millions of lives. It feels to me that the outcome of all this Soviet-German, then Soviet-Nazi, cooperation was about as bad as it could have been. It is among the most destructive chapters in all of human history, resulting in more human caused deaths than any other period except for Mao's great leap backward.

Super insightful! Another corker!!

This part of the lead up to WW 2 is often ignored by modern western historians.

Very good discussion, thank you.

@WW2TV

2 жыл бұрын

Our pleasure!

Perfect title for your book.

Homerun program going on here, great guest Woody, I can't wait to read , connected so many dots, you be on your way with Drachinifel numbers of subscribers Woody 👍

@WW2TV

2 жыл бұрын

I hope I can reach Drach's numbers - that would be wonderful

@flattblackcopper4558

2 жыл бұрын

@@WW2TV Keep it up brother, you will get there, that was fantastic program, big fan from the state's 👍

Of course, the most obvious inference from Prof. Johnson's work and the reason so little research and discussion has been done around the matter is that his work severely batters the cartoon image of Soviet communism as the great and virtuous hope of the downtrodden, exploited masses and cosmos spanning bulwark against fascism. Perhaps Professor Johnson could one day research the possibility that the German death camps and economics of slave labor were modeled on the Russian gulags. Could it be that elements of German/Soviet cooperation involved German inspection and note taking of the gulags?

And of course you had Richard Sòrge in Germany during this time. BTW a show on him might be a good idea.

@aka99

Жыл бұрын

good idea. hope ww2tv will do a video on him

It's interesting how both devils had to spend time eating flies. Two dictators that are totally opposed to each other, both willing to make a 'deal' to suit their own needs. Stalin, without doubt, the greater poker player uses the deck more effectively against his opponent. Sadly for Poland, but humorously in terms of the final outcome, "biting the hand that feeds you" came back with a huge bite after Barbarossa and defeat on the Eastern front.. Fantastic topic and presentation, highlighting the deviousness on both sides, from the end of WW1 thru to and during the onset of WW2.

Consider Kalkhin Gol and two front problem...truce with Japan also favors the Molotov Pact in Summer 39 esp. Eastern factor IMPORTANT and usually overlooked...good vid btw in it's details. Look also BTW at the 34 Pilsudski Pact with the failed water colourist!

@brucealbert4686

2 жыл бұрын

That would be the cheap with the small moustache.

@user-wj6dt5bq3w

3 ай бұрын

Pilsudski's 1934 pact with Germany was just non-aggression, nothing else was envisioned in it. Pilsudski and his successors refused repeated German offers to join a future war against the Soviet Union.

Were the American Auto builders General Motors and Ford in volved in this industrial assistance?

@WW2TV

4 ай бұрын

Yes

1:21:49 especially now, going back will likely have to wait...

They are extremely similar

❤

If the co-operation was at this level prior to 1933 and possessing an intimate knowledge of the soviet military-it begs the question why was the soviet military equipment numbers so vastly underestimated??at the onset of Barbarossa

@WW2TV

Жыл бұрын

Good question. I guess because the Soviets limited what they shared with German visitors

@susandavidson3344

Жыл бұрын

​@@WW2TV ... watched the FB (book) story w/ much fascination. Plus the FB Roundtable Lecture. In light of The Hitler-Mannerheim Recording, is it not the case Prof Paul would have very definite "answers?"

German-Russian cooperation is the normal for the continent the anomaly is Britain and later the US succeeding in keeping the continent divided and in fact succeeding convincing these nations to go to war with each other to the detriment of both. This is the ancient British tactic, creating conflicts in Europe where they can become important, against any dominant power that might be, the Hapsburgs, the French or the Germans. If there is cooperation, Britain (and the US) become irrelevant, German technology combined with Russian resources is unbeatable for a naval power.

If the co-operation was at this level prior to 1933 and possessing an intimate knowledge of the soviet military-it begs the question why was the soviet military equipment numbers so vastly underestimated??at the onset of Barbarossa Reply WW2TV 1 reply WW2TV 4 months ago Good question. I guess because the Soviets limited what they shared with German visitors Reply Susan Davidson ​ @WW2TV ... watched the FB (book) story w/ much fascination. Plus the FB Roundtable Lecture. In light of The Hitler-Mannerheim Recording, is it not the case Prof Paul would have very definite "answers?" Wanted to highlight this, as even the Enver Pasha "near capture" story itself is fascinating [intrigue]. Still the BIGGIE is: why was the soviet military equipment numbers so vastly underestimated?

Book cover has a photo of two quite famous soldats - Schnell Heinz and Krivoshein for USSR part of the deal. They better would not fight each over. But they did. Many things happened. None of them good. That was a long story since Russia had German tzars since 18th century to the 1917.

What about the Soviet-BRIT partnership, wade that Faustian?

Which one is Faust which one is Mephistopheles ? Tough choice

1:15:50 Excuse my French - На напающего бог.

I wish that Ian would mention at least a bit of the 1920 Polish-Bolshevik war and the ultimate failure of it for the Bolsheviks and how it essentially weakened the hand of the Russian Bolsheviks government in its diplomatic dealings with the German Weimar government and military.

@WW2TV

Жыл бұрын

There's only so much that can be said in one show

@markgarrett3647

Жыл бұрын

@@WW2TV It doesn't have to be a long exposition but a sort of short but succinct mention on how that conflict played a role in shaping the dynamic of the Russo-German relations well into the pre-1939 invasion of Poland.

@WW2TV

Жыл бұрын

@@markgarrett3647 Or maybe Ian didn't think it was important as you do? There's also that possibility

@markgarrett3647

Жыл бұрын

@@WW2TV Yeah I'm also curious about that phenomena as well with how until only a few years ago that that momentous conflict is sparsely mentioned by most historians when talking about Eastern European geopolitics and pre-WW2 European diplomatic and political maps even though it shaped them as much as WWI did.

They were doing to Poland what Britain and France did to Africa, Asia and Arabia. They learned from us.

Did i miss Kalkin Gol?

@WW2TV

2 жыл бұрын

This had little to do with the Stalin/Hitler situation?

@aon10003

Жыл бұрын

@@WW2TV Kalkin Gol Happened at the same time as Germany accelerated the signing of the Molotov Ribbentorp pact. So Soviet was in war with Japan when NaziGermany proposed a pact. This is important. The nightmare for Soviet was a twofrontwar, som they had little options but to be more cooperative than otherwise. And Soviet attacked Poland the day after there was peace with Japan.. Stephen Koitkin described the situation in the book. Hitler waiting for Stalin.

The question here is who's Faust?

Trivial question. What language did the Germans and Soviet officers communicate in? Did the Germans learn Russians?

@WW2TV

Жыл бұрын

Both really

Was there a serious attempt to turn Russian Army Officers?

@WW2TV

2 жыл бұрын

Ian talks a little about this in the book as I recall

Please do not neglect to keep in mind that the Soviet Union had ( 1 ) offered, with Czech government agreement, to provide armed forces to Czechoslovakia in an attempt to deter an entirely predictable move by Hitler to devour the rest of what remained after the Sudetenlands annexation. A move wholly scuttled by Polish refusal to allow passage of Red Army forces to Czechoslovak territory through Polish territory. ( 2 ), Franco-British diplomatic and military representatives despatched to Moscow in early 1939 displayed absolutely nothing resembling serious contemplation of an alliance with Moscow to deter, and, if necessarily, wage war against Hitler in the event of further aggression. I refer anyone interested to the fascinating, very candid memoirs of V.M Molotov ( in English published, unfortunately in an expurgated version, as ‘ Molotov Remembers ‘ ), in which he repeatedly refers to Politburo references, on innumerable occasions, along with Armed Forces and intelligence estimates that the pact provided nothing more than up to 24 months of ‘ breathing space ‘.

@WW2TV

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks for the comments. Some of these points are covered in Ian's book. There's only so much we can include in one show

@matthewwhitton5720

2 жыл бұрын

@@WW2TV Oh, I fully understand that. I certainly have no criticisms of your show at all, of which I’m a very keen fan.

@horsefish2525

2 жыл бұрын

You have to be insane to allow Red Army to enter Polish territory. You dont know but it dosent mean that Poland didnt know that Soviets are criminals and murderers on same the scale as Hitler. When Soviet offered help to Czechoslovakia it only passed few months from this Soviet crime: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Operation_of_the_NKVD. It was a part of the Great Terror en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Purge. Few year earlier Soviet procured Holodomor. Poland was deluged with thousands of victims who sought first food and the second security. The were idiots on the west who said then that it is a conspiracy theory. During the collectivization of Ukrainian farmland in the First five-year plan and the Holodomor, numerous Soviet citizens of Ukrainian and Polish nationality fled across the border to Poland. Interviews of Soviet refugees by Polish border guards provided the first knowledge of the famine to the West. Poland also sent agents provocateur across the border in order to encourage Ukrainians to revolt against Soviet rule, which was ineffective and only increased Joseph Stalin's paranoia about rebellion and dissidence in the region.[7]

@horsefish2525

2 жыл бұрын

It is my the second commentary here The 1st has disappeared?

@GNeves302

2 жыл бұрын

@@horsefish2525 Convenient of you to omit that Poland was interested in territorial expansion at the expense of Czechoslovakia.

In both WW1 and WW2,, Germany could have fought on. With history, it's whose version you care to believe.

@WW2TV

11 ай бұрын

What do you mean?

@clarkgable2733

11 ай бұрын

Germany had the means to fight on. At the end of WW2 Germany was deploying new weapon systems. Doesn't really sound like a nation that is defeated. If a few V2's had started to fall in NY and Washington, DC, there would have been a truce. We were lied to about WW1 and WW2 massively. Hitler did not commit suicide. According to History Channel's documentary series, "Hunting Hitler", Hitler escaped, went to South America, developed Nuclear weapons and a delivery system, and then retired.

@WW2TV

11 ай бұрын

Wow, you're a full-blown tinfoil hat wearer. Try reading actual history. The Reich was utterly defeated

"Her (Poland's)existence is intolerable and incompatible with the vital needs of Germany. Poland must and will disappear through her own internal weakness and through Russia’s action - with our assistance. For Russia, Poland is even more intolerable than for us; no Russia can allow Poland to exist." -General Hans Von Seeckt, 11 September 1922 Source:

Possibly the most repulsive treaty in the sordid history of Machiavellian geopolitics.

@WW2TV

Жыл бұрын

Yes indeed

I am in no position to comment as I have not access to the extensive documentation. That said, The agreement between Russia and Germeny. is described as "Villainous" Why so a value judgement. OK Stalin and Co are Gangsters. They behave as such. Their actions might well be regarded as "Pragmatic" and in the best intrestes of Russia and themselves. They have no obligation to UK and France. Who by the way in Sept 1938, have without consultation. Signed away significant, vital stratigic areas of Czeckoslovakia. the Czechs wern't given an option just presented with the fact. Now that's what I call "Villainous". Britian and France. Who took no action over the Reoccupation of the Rhineland. No action over the Anschluss in Austria. Both in contravention of the Treaty of Versailles. signed the London Naval agreement in 1935, permiting Germany limited navel expansion including submarine building. Took no action over Germany declaring an expansion of armed forces and Airforce. Did not declare war when Germany occupied the rest of Czeckoslovakia. . Hitler was writing about "Living space" in the EAST. Not the "Home Counties" The Polish Gov wouldn't counternance an agreement with Russia. The UK French delegation had no negotiating authority. and was headed by a Kings euqerry. Hitler sends his Forigen Minister with full authority. Stalin is no more ready for war than UK,& France, less perhaps. Strikes me the "Villianous" pact is sound pragmatic sense given the situation. Ps. Great channel with top class discussion and Guest contributions. Liked and subscribed

Creating Chechoslowakia and Poland after ww1 was a huge mistake.

Get off the tracks Pinky 🙃

@WW2TV

2 жыл бұрын

I have no idea what that means, but thanks for watching

@flattblackcopper4558

2 жыл бұрын

@@WW2TV Pink Floyd reference, in the episode you laughed at being pink, love ww2 history, love pink floyd, hoping to hire you one day for a dream vacation, I'll do what I can to promote your channel, love your work, can tell you love what you do,that's killing it, in my book. You ever make it to Indianapolis, dranks on me. Cheers brother

@WW2TV

2 жыл бұрын

@@flattblackcopper4558 Ha, I've never been into Pink Floyd, so the reference went over my head. I would probably get a punk or rockabilly comment though.

@flattblackcopper4558

2 жыл бұрын

@@WW2TV curious, what do you consider rockabilly?

@WW2TV

2 жыл бұрын

@@flattblackcopper4558 I like the original 50s stuff like Ronnie Hawkins, Carl Perkins, Gene Vincent etc and also the revival stuff like The Stray Cats etc