Jason, On June 6 of this year (five days ago), the FAA released an update to Advisory Circular 90-66 Non-Towered Airport Flight Operations. It is now on the C editorial edition. AC 90-66 has been my bible, as I operate out of a non-towered airport close to a Class C. There are always numerous planes entering/exiting the pattern and half the time not following written standards. Of course these are standards, not law, so as long as they are following regulations they aren't doing anything illegal, but may be following unsafe or hazardous procedures. In the NEW 90-66C, upwind is mentioned 5 times vs the 90-66B singular mention of upwind. Page A-1 gives us a definition of upwind and departure: "1. Upwind leg. A flight path parallel to the landing runway in the direction of landing. Note: The upwind leg is separate and distinct from the departure leg and often used to reference the flight path flown after takeoff (or a touch and go). 6. Departure-Departing the airport’s traffic area. The flight path which begins after takeoff and continues straight ahead along the extended runway centerline. Note: The departure climb continues until reaching a point at least 1/2 mile beyond the departure end of the runway and within 300 feet of the traffic pattern altitude, and the aircraft continues on its direction of flight away from the airport." There is also a picture which illustrates upwind offset to the right from the runway. My personal usage has been departure leg rather than upwind. I use upwind when there is a runway incursion while I am on short final and need to simultaneously go-around and offset my track to remain clear of departing traffic. Hope this helps.

@lynnharbinson6227

Жыл бұрын

I thought this AC was the topic of the video (until I watched it.). The AC has the definition of departure leg in bold.

@TheFinerPoints

Жыл бұрын

It does, thank you! I just saw / read that and there will be a video update coming. It seems the new AC is clearly stating it's "upwind" if you're staying in the pattern and "departure" if you're leaving the traffic area.

@emergencylowmaneuvering7350

Жыл бұрын

@@TheFinerPoints UPWIND LEG. OLD PILOT HERE. The Upwind Leg is opposite the Downwind Leg on the other side of the airport (BY 1970'S AIM). The leg you use in 3 cases. 1- in case of a go around if an airplane is on the runway while you are on final leg. You go to the right side to keep an eye on it climbing to you. 2- to enter the airport pattern you can use the Upwind Leg entry and inspect the runway from Upwind Leg first (Unless helos there using it). If doing a Straight in Approach, but cannot continue due traffic, you go to the Upwind Leg and climb to TPA.

Hey Jason! At 6:18 you refer to the right hand side of the pattern as the dead side of the pattern, or the side that doesn't exist. Please, please, please make sure you're telling your fixed wing students that the right hand pattern side is typically occupied with helicopters if they are around unless the airport has noise abatement procedures. I started as fixed wing and switched over to rotary. For some reason helicopter SOP's are commonly completely ignored during PPL instruction for fixed wing. Then whenever a helicopter is present, the student (or pilot by then) is confused as to what a helicopter pilot is doing. Often it ends up with the helicopter being completely dismissed because the airplane pilot thinks to themselves "well that guy is just doing his own thing." I can't tell you how many times I've had an airplane pilot turn directly towards me head on when I clearly announced a right base. Or there are many times an airplane will not have a visual on the helicopter but continues to go through the left hand pattern regardless of where our position is because I just don't think they understand we're supposed to maintain a traffic pattern that does not inhibit fixed wing traffic, which is generally considered to be the opposite side of the pattern from fixed wing traffic. I'm currently training for my helicopter CFI but also plan on earning my fixed wing CFI. I think both types of aircraft training could do a better job of instructing their pilots what to expect and how to work with the opposite type of aircraft. Several of my helicopter guys didn't even understand what a tear-drop was for fixed wing because it's not a regular maneuver used by helicopters. The lack of understanding between pilots can be the cause of a deadly incident. If we all are cognizant that our students need to know these things, then we can help make safer and more situationally aware pilots!

@dojoswitzer

Жыл бұрын

I had the benefit of learning at an airport that also had helicopter instruction. The pilots often called their position on the Right Downwind, which was very helpful.

@dojoswitzer

Жыл бұрын

The airport certainly is a confusing place for combined fixed wing and rotary traffic when you throw in the right-of-way hierarchy on aircraft circling in two different directions with different ground speeds. Seems like each fixed wing course should include one lesson by a helicopter CFI explaining their mindset in the airport vicinity. Maybe you should do a joint video with Jason.

@VictoryAviation

Жыл бұрын

@@dojoswitzer Some kind of joint video between a fixed wing and rotary wing CFI would be great. I happen to know a pretty well known heli CFII that was instructor of the year, and he’s familiar with making video content.

@scottmacdougall2843

4 ай бұрын

IFR - departure? VFR - up wind?

@jlhrstv

16 сағат бұрын

Assuming you are flying closer to the runway (a short approach) IAW 90-66C Sect 12.1 then fixed wing aircraft should not normally be on right base there. If you are on a right base 1/2 mile from the approach end of the runway, then I would expect that you would come head on with fixed wing traffic because that is where they are supposed to be. Fixed wing pilots would assume that a helicopter is flying clear and inside of the fixed wing pattern when a helicopter announces "right base"

Hey Jason, this is a great topic. I'm a DPE flying for over 25 years, and yes, this conversation comes up alot. At no towered airports if I am staying in the pattern I will refer to it as the upwind. If I am departing the area, I will use departure leg. This makes it easier for others on frequency to know if I'm staying or going.

How about this? If you're remaining within the pattern, call it the upwind. But when you're leaving the area, you call it departure leg?

@deanfowlkes

Жыл бұрын

That is a very convenient way of describing it. And, it is, in essence, universally accepted as such. Except, that it is not correct at this current time. Think of it this way. The Departure Leg is the Runway Extended Centerline. The Upwind is a parallel runway Track/Tract. At least, that is the way I read it. The FAA will and should have to clarify this.

@WX4CB

Жыл бұрын

which actually this is the way i was taught to do it...

@108hitchcock

Жыл бұрын

I agree

@craigsanders6925

Жыл бұрын

Unless I'm departing on the crosswind or downwind leg. :)

@TheFinerPoints

Жыл бұрын

Turns out, that's the guidance! From the FAA -- AC 90-66C released 8 days ago

There are six legs (upwind, crosswind, downwind, base, final, departure) in a traffic pattern (see AIM Fig 4-3-1 as well as all of the other diagrams in the AIM, PHAK, Airplane Flying Handbook, and AC 90-66C that call the first segment from the runway the departure leg). Why would you want to have two of them with the same name and cause exactly this massive confusion? Well, for some reason, that's the situation we have. It appears, as you realized, that the first leg from the runway was called the upwind years ago and then all of the diagrams were changed, but the ATC terminology wasn't. You've done a good job of making everyone aware of it. That's the important thing - awareness, and the fact that in quite a few cases, there will have to be extra comments made or requested to clarify our communication. (If it were up to me, I would have ONE name for each leg as in Fig 4-3-1 - no confusion - no issue).

In my almost 30 years of flying i have never used any name for this circuit leg at all and atc here usually instructs to maintain runway heading on departure. (this is from flying in swizzle and canada)

Read the Airplane Flying handbook 8083-3C page 8-4, and there the FAA talks about the upwind leg as: " a course flown parallel to the landing runway in the same direction as landing traffic. The upwind leg is flown at controlled airports and after go-arounds. When necessary, the upwind leg is the part of the traffic pattern in which the pilot will transition from the final approach to the climb altitude to initiate a go-around."

@RetreadPhoto

2 ай бұрын

Overseas it can be flown at uncontrolled airports, and sometimes by foreign pilots at uncontrolled airports here in the US.

Thanks for posting this video. I learned to fly in 1979 and stopped flying in 1990. I came back as a rusty pilot last year and it’s like I started over. I was beginning to think the term upwind was a figment of my imagination. Good stuff!

I was taught upwind during my training. Additionally, tower has instructed me on more than one occasion to extend upwind 1 mile before starting crosswind.

Jason, love that your brought this up! I just had this discussion with my CFI.. True, the FAA changes things and Terms, from the 1970's till now.. and you are traveling into the wind, so its UP into the wind... but departure is departure and upwind is upwind, that is opposite the downwind.. the AIM from 2023, is below... the bottom line is listen to the controller at a controlled field, and at an uncontrolled field, communicate with others to avoid any surprises or issues rather than arguing about definitions of words on a page in a book.. SAFETY first.. According to the AIM (4-3-1), an upwind is “a flight path parallel to the landing runway in the direction of landing.” It is not the takeoff or climb out (which is actually not labeled in the AIM). there is a graphic labeling as such in the AIM as well. love the content, fly safe aviators!

First I am a student pilot. When I go around I call out that I am going around and that I am on the departure let. My understanding is that the upswing is parallel the runway on the the outside of the pattern. If I decide not to land on base and keep going past final I will call that I will be on the upwind. If I hear anyone say that they are upwind I am assuming that you are not flying over the runway and that is where I would first look.

I agree with you and I have always been taught that it is the "upwind." The only time I use "departure leg" in a radio call is if I am departing the pattern straight out... as a student I would frequently use runway 30 and depart straight out when doing solo XC flights. When I am staying in the pattern I tend to make radio calls that I am on the upwind, for situational awareness to other pilots, as I fly out of a very busy airport with skydive ops and pilots from other near bye schools. I don't think I have ever heard anyone who is JUST doing pattern work refer to it as the "departure leg." Only those who are leaving. Great video. I've been hearing a lot of discussion about this lately. Thanks for sharing!

@jlhrstv

15 сағат бұрын

If you must be on the radio when you are taking off, perhaps "Departing runway XX remaining in the pattern" would avoid any ambiguity. "Upwind" just means too many things to too many people. For example, my first reaction would be to look for you parallel to the runway, opposite the downwind prior to mid field as I learned from the AIM and other current FAA documentation.

Without over complicating things I like to think about it like this. The traffic pattern has 6 parts: 1) Departure 2) Crosswind 3) Downwind 4) Base 5) Final 6) Upwind (think go-around) Departure and upwind are different, when you side-step on the go-around, that would be the upwind leg. Upwind is not the “dead zone” on the other side of the pattern. I hope that helps. I like the video, great topic.

@RetreadPhoto

2 ай бұрын

True, in America. Not the case in UK, Australia, New Zealand, and possibly Canada. If they’re headed in the same direction as the runway heading, it’s upwind, period. It can be on takeoff, offset to go around, or on the dead side.

Omg. I have that 1980 flight handbook. It’s astonishing how good it still is. Well, a plane is still a plane.

I agree about the numbers “fower” and “fife”. I don’t think I’ve ever actually said that in real life 😂 …..but I’m definitely particular about saying “tree” and “niner” for sure!

The AIM pilot/controller glossary lists the traffic pattern portions as: Upwind, Crosswind, Downwind, Base, and Final approach. I learned the upwind as the defined parallel leg that is to be used to view the pattern and runway or a safe way to configure and enter from the opposite side of the pattern.

The only names you can interchange are Departure = Extended Centre line

Notice in the AIM has BOTH. Upwind is anything parallel to the runway. Departure is if you are coming off the runway (including a go-around). Don't over think it. Upwind = Final/Departure. Just train to use either and make sure you're proficient in understanding it in action.

Great topic, I think you nailed it - just as long as we all understand each other’s intentions and positions in the pattern, that is what really matters. Thanks for the great content as always!

@SoloRenegade

Жыл бұрын

in the 2023 FAR/AIM, AIM 4-3-1 clearly shows the upwind leg of the traffic pattern. if flying the upwind without taking off or landing, it is upwind, per the FAA. And if on parallel runways, the upwind must be flown directly over the runway with no offset/sidestep allowed.

Thanks for the feature and thanks for digging into this! I just talked about this on my latest podcast episode, but wasn’t aware that older FAA materials called it upwind. I still think departure is superior and clearer because just like downwind doesn’t mean anything without a “left or right” designation, upwind is the same way. You said yourself that if a controller instructed you to enter the “upwind” that you’d need clarification because it doesn’t make sense to enter the extended centerline and you’d need to know if they meant right or left upwind. So those are my thoughts and I appreciate you digging into this, Jason! 🙌🏻

@TheFinerPoints

Жыл бұрын

Thanks for your thoughts on this!

@SoloRenegade

Жыл бұрын

in the 2023 FAR/AIM, AIM 4-3-1 clearly shows the upwind leg of the traffic pattern. if flying the upwind without taking off or landing, it is upwind, per the FAA. And if on parallel runways, the upwind must be flown directly over the runway with no offset/sidestep allowed.

@jimallen8186

Жыл бұрын

@@SoloRenegade funny because when you go initial to overhead break, you’re essentially entering on an upwind and you’re going to offset to not be directly over the runway so as to see traffic lifting helping to determine your interval as well as to not have someone climb into you.

@SoloRenegade

Жыл бұрын

@@jimallen8186 if you sidestep a parallel runway, you're intruding into the parallel runway, and that's not ok. Why are you overflying a runway with traffic on it taking off into you?

@jimallen8186

Жыл бұрын

@@SoloRenegade That is assuming you sidestep sufficiently far enough to be over the parallel. Most major military fields have parallels yet they still arrive in the overhead side stepped away from the pattern side meaning toward the parallel side looking for their interval into their breaks.

The textual portion on page 8-4 of the Airplane flying handbook (FAA-H-8083-3C) makes the distinction between the upwind and departure leg.

As someone who hasn't yet flow and only recently started learning flight terminology. My immediate gut was that upwind was any leg parallel to the downwind but in the opposite direction and departure was specifically the upwind leg on a take off or go around and would not include that same leg of flown over the runway without any landing attempt.

Hi Jason, I've had my license for just under 10 years, flying out of Camarillo (KCMA) in SoCal. I have only ever heard, or used, upwind for that portion of the pattern on the extended centerline right after takeoff. I agree that is the more clear descriptor for that portion of the pattern.

AIM 4.3.2, Figure 4-3-1, graphically defines the upwind and departure legs. Upwind is on the opposite side of the runway from the downwind.

@TheFinerPoints

Жыл бұрын

Well it's hard to draw what they really mean. It's both parallel to the runway and along the centerline depending on context

Eventually everyone will get on the same page with the departure leg, just like we did with the PTS versus ACS. There’s a couple old timers still referring to PTS but it’s a lot less frequent than a few years ago.

Greetings Jason, my training is fairly recent, PPL Oct 2022 but I was taught both terms. The upwind was to be used when a pilot is deviating from runway center line on final due to fouled runway or during take off or land to move out of the wake turbulence. Departure was as you audience described in PHAK. (Central KS).

The Upwind Leg is opposite the Downwind Leg on the other side of the airport (BY 1970'S AIM). The leg you use in 3 cases. 1- in case of a go around if an airplane is on the runway and you go to the right side to keep an eye on it climbing to you. 2- to enter the airport pattern iyou can use the Upwind Leg entry and inspect the runway from Upwind Leg first (Unless helos there using it). 3- If doing a Straight in Approach from the direction of landing, but cannot continue straight in due traffic, you turn to the Upwind Leg and climb to TPA.

I'm a new pilot that trained at a Class D airport. I never thought of that segment as a leg of the pattern because I'm either leaving the pattern or about to call crosswind. I or the tower controller would say depart straight out or centerline or something like that. I was aware of the upwind being offset from the centerline. For a longtime I thought I should just offset a few runway widths so I can see traffic on the runway but the first time I used it, a CFI told me that it should be as far out to the side as the downwind leg.

Thank you i ll learn a lot about it

Totally agree with your logic. Got my PPL in 1998 and never heard anything other than upwind leg. What genius in the FAA decided to change it and cause a bunch of confusion and for what purpose? IMO they need to change it back! If for nothing other than consistancy as you stated. Good video

Great video. This has been a point of confusion for me as well. When I hear upwind, I definitely think of something that is not the same as the 'departure leg'. I always seem to figure it out, but eliminating the confusion would be better.

I only call it departure leg if I intend on leaving the airspace. If im staying in the pattern...upwind.

Hey Jason, I am a former U.S. Army Air Traffic Controller (Tower Operator). When I was assigned to Butts Army Airfield at Fort Carson in Colorado Springs, we would have "classes" of eight aircraft at a time from the Air Force Academy enter the traffic pattern. They were supposed to spend a fixed amount of time in our pattern before heading to the next airport for T&Gs. Frequently the next group of eight would start to report inbound while most of the previous group were still in the pattern. One method of sequencing them into the existing traffic was to have them enter the upwind. So with eight aircraft in left closed traffic, I would have the inbound planes enter the upwind on the right side of the runway (what you called the dead side) and I would call their crosswind to sequence them between two other aircraft already in the pattern. It actually works quite well. So there is a practical reason for using the upwind leg at a towered airport. It was another tool for separating aircraft and maintaining a "safe, orderly and expeditious" traffic flow. Also, as @MattHeaven states, we would have our helicopters enter right traffic for the sod area adjacent to the active runway - obviously this requires very good situational awareness on the controller's part, and you could not utilize the upwind entry with helicopters in the right traffic pattern.

I don’t think I’ve ever flown into an airport busy enough that I needed to make a call during the upwind.

Nice video. Thanks!!

@TheFinerPoints

Жыл бұрын

Glad you liked it!

I have always felt that the upwind leg was parallel to the runway prior to the crosswind leg and the departure leg was the extended center line through and beyond the crosswind leg. If someone reported upwind of say runway 9 I would expect to see them parallel to the runway in the landing direction.

One last comment. Before I was IFR rated, to be honest departure leg may have been a foreign language to me. During my initial PPL training when we (my instructor and me) went to a non-towered airport, we would say "upwind". The first time I heard "departure leg" was during my IFR training. Yes, I'd heard the tower at KNEW say "Bird activity on the departure leg of runway XX..." Conversely, I also recognized the call out "Traffic on the upwind runway XXX." My point is, if ATC doesn't standardize it, then it's a free for all.

I've come across this topic before. I've always called it the upwind leg, but at least as of today, the AIM 4.3.2 also specifies the definitions. Upwind leg: A flight path parallel to the landing runway in the direction of landing. Departure: The flight path which begins after takeoff and continues straight ahead along the extended runway centerline. The departure climb continues until reaching a point at least 1/2 mile beyond the departure end of the runway and within 300 feet of the traffic pattern altitude. So to me, it seems like the departure leg is, while taking off, from the ground up to 300 below traffic pattern altitude, along the extended runway centerline. And the upwind leg is near pattern altitude to be used for things like go-arounds and perhaps reviewing runway/airport conditions before a landing at a non-towered airport.

Jason I agree, it's all about safety. I'm a three-year Private pilot and when I was taught if you had to do a go-round you sidestepped to the right and called in up wind. I actually like the idea of a departure leg. Recently from an uncontrolled airport I had to do go round from an extended downwind and called the upwind I would love to have known that the pilots taking off knew that I was to the right south of the airport. Extra information traffic was landing zero nine and 12 at the same time.

@jimallen8186

Жыл бұрын

You should only sidestep if you’re going around due to traffic conflict. Otherwise why add the extra maneuver while you’re low and slow. Side stepping also can create a conflict should anyone behind you be approaching fast as that is their safe out.

Two collinear lines are also parallel…the upwind leg can be right on centerline and also parallel to centerline.

I always thought of upwind as the term that would be used if you had to divert from a landing because of a conflict with another airplane taking off. You would enter the upwind leg - parallel to the runway and offset enough so that you could keep the other aircraft in sight.

@emergencylowmaneuvering7350

Жыл бұрын

Right.

I'm a student pilot, and if I need to extend my upwind to allow for spacing: this is exactly my call on the radio, if remaining in the pattern. If I'm leaving for a cross country, practice area, than I will radio those intentions and heading appropriately. N552AT departing to the north practice area.....if remaining in the pattern, I'll climb to 1800 before entering the crosswind, from the upwind.

Howdy Jason, first thanks for the excellent content. Your videos on landings really cleaned mine up and helped me pass my checkride. As for the silly phonetic alphabet, it's the phonetic alphabet the military has used for eons. When training as a young infantryman decades ago (I feel old just typing that), I asked a question using a set of grid coordinates similar to the tail number you used as an example. Lots of 3, 4, 5, and 9s. The practical example given was to have us record numbers read over the radio while being fired at with 30cal machine guns. Those hard syllables come across much more clearly, and when reading numbers in combat you're not normally identifying who you are - but where you would like close air support, fire support, or in the worst of situations MEDEVAC. Having to say it twice may mean you, or your fellow soldiers, don't live long enough to make the second call. Having later been responsible for brigade level radio comms in combat for about 9000 hours, using anything but the NATO phonetic alphabet makes me twitch but you're still right that I'm asked to say again more often than not when I "do it right". At any rate, now you know where it comes from!

Good analysis. Upwind here in Australia. Cheers.

Obviously, the first part of the traffic pattern should be called the "arm". Think about it, there are no other arms in the traffic pattern, it's all "legs". Therefore, it can be called the arm with no ambiguity!

30 years of ATC, 35 years of piloting. The FAA has a lot of disconnects where they change things in one community (pilots) but they forget to inform the other community (ATC). Every pilot I issued Upwind too never didn’t understand. I think I most often said “extend you upwind leg”.

Yeah, most North American pilots and controllers understand the interchangeability of some terms such as upwind and departure leg. However, I have about 30 years of military and airline international flying. I am here to tell you that the use of just one non-standard word or phrase destroys the ability to communicate with a pilot from Pakistan or a controller in Colombia with possibly deadly results. That standardization begins with instructors using and teaching only the terminology published in FAA documents or the foreign equivalent. Terminology occasionally changes. IPs should be the first to adopt new terminology. Build and teach correct, standardized habit patterns BEFORE you (or a student) get that job flying B747s around the world. Instructors at a college-owned flight school near me love to use and teach what they THINK is fighter-pilot talk. C'mon, guys and gals, real fighter pilots are professionals -- NOT Maverick in Top Gun! The controllers at Frankfurt, Germany will eat you alive!

Personally, I think the reason we use upwind vs departure around me(all controlled airspace) is because if you have planes in a left and right downwind simultaneously, there isnt an upwind side. That leaves the extended centerline as your only upwind. We dont ever use the word "departure" except to communicate our intentions either on the ground or in the air. Using it any other way would likely be confusing. With that said, i am curious if the "departure" and "upwind" leg is really only intended to be used with an uncontrolled field. It is only here would you announce a left/right crosswind or a straight or 45 "departure" leg and have a usable upwind.

@SoloRenegade

Жыл бұрын

in the 2023 FAR/AIM, AIM 4-3-1 clearly shows the upwind leg of the traffic pattern. if flying the upwind without taking off or landing, it is upwind, per the FAA. And if on parallel runways, the upwind must be flown directly over the runway with no offset/sidestep allowed.

It should be departure leg. Upwind leg is parallel to the downwind leg at 1000ft AGL (or 1500ft AGL for jets). Imagine an airplane coming on a heading 360 to land on runway 36 but he can’t do a straight approach (which, by the way, is forbidden at uncontrolled airports at some countries). The pilot will join the upwind leg, then crosswind leg, downwind leg, base and final. The departure segment may be known as upwind leg by american pilot but it will centainly generate a lot of confusion with foreign guys.

@SoloRenegade

Жыл бұрын

departure leg only applies for taking off and DEPARTING

@jcmedau

Жыл бұрын

@@SoloRenegade right. And upwind leg is part of the traffic pattern for landing

@SoloRenegade

Жыл бұрын

​@@jcmedau in the 2023 FAR/AIM, AIM 4-3-1 clearly shows the upwind leg of the traffic pattern. if flying the upwind without taking off or landing, it is upwind, per the FAA. And if on parallel runways, the upwind must be flown directly over the runway with no offset/sidestep allowed.

@SoloRenegade

Жыл бұрын

in the 2023 FAR/AIM, AIM 4-3-1 clearly shows the upwind leg of the traffic pattern. if flying the upwind without taking off or landing, it is upwind, per the FAA. And if on parallel runways, the upwind must be flown directly over the runway with no offset/sidestep allowed.

@jcmedau

Жыл бұрын

@@SoloRenegade that is what I’m saying. The segment flown immediatelly after takeoff should NOT be called upwind leg. It is the departure leg.

Interesting discussion. In Alaska I've only heard "upwind" used, both by ATC and pilots at uncontrolled airports. Agree with your point Jason that if I used "departure" at an uncontrolled airport, other pilots might infer that I'm departing the pattern when in fact I'm not. If I am departing straight ahead after take off, like most pilots I make it clear that I'm departing "runway" heading.

@jimallen8186

Жыл бұрын

For most the time aviation has existed, it has been the Upwind. It is only recently that it has been renamed Departure because one person whined excessively about this subject. I agree it is confusing and really if you’re staying in the pattern Upwind makes much more sense. It is a “Social Construct,” meaning humans defined it and it only exists because humans defined it. And it can be and was changed by humans.

As far as Tree, Fife, etc. that's how I learned to say the numbers training outside the US. Recently, while on Denver Center, ATC talked to an Ethiopian Airline and ATC was saying Tree, Fife, etc. Pronouncing the "TH" sound and other sounds is difficult for many non-native english speakers.

Maybe we should differentiate the Departure Leg versus the Upwind Leg by altitude. Anything at Traffic Pattern Altitude from one runway end to another should be called the Upwind leg. Anything below the Traffic Pattern Altitude should be called the Departure Leg. Just a thought.

My assumption on the use of the “upwind” had been that it applied in the situation where I go around due to spacing with departing traffic. I offset to the right , keeping the other traffic in sight and so fly the “upwind” leg

@SoloRenegade

Жыл бұрын

in the 2023 FAR/AIM, AIM 4-3-1 clearly shows the upwind leg of the traffic pattern. if flying the upwind without taking off or landing, it is upwind, per the FAA. And if on parallel runways, the upwind must be flown directly over the runway with no offset/sidestep allowed.

@goose8494

Жыл бұрын

@@SoloRenegade I see that diagram. As per Fig 4-3-1 , I’m still curious..under what circumstances might I find myself flying parallel to the landing runway in the direction of landing? And at what typical height? And for how long, terminating by what method?

@jimallen8186

Жыл бұрын

Exactly as you would were you entering from the initial through the overhead break.

Like Airspace the FAA screws with sit that worked for decades ! From the 60's its been "UP Wind "

I just did some training at a small untowered field in the midwest, and apparently local tradition is to enter the pattern on the "upwind" opposite the runway from the downwind, make a left turn to cross runway centerline and join the crosswind leg, then proceed normally to turn left into the downwind. CFIs and other airport staff were adamant this was normal, but I've never encountered it at any other untowered fields I've flown into. There was a lot of flight training occuring at this airport, and I have a feeling any transient traffic attempting to enter the pattern on a base leg or straight-in would have been met with some degree of hostility. I trained at a Class D where 'upwind' could only be synonymous with the 'departure' leg, because our tower frequently had traffic in both left and right traffic patterns simultaneously.

I agree with your opinion on this.

Upwind LEG for me (used occasionally) has always been offset from runway. (i.e. opposite side and direction from downwind but same offset parallel to runway). Never heard anyone call the departure LEG the upwind LEG. Certainly both on departure leg and an upwind leg you are traveling in an upwind direction. But departure Leg and upwind leg are positioned differently. See AIM figure 4-3-1.

@shanehunter9276

Жыл бұрын

This is what I came here to comment as well. The upwind (as I learned it) is the path of travel exactly the other side of the downwind, with the runway in between. For example: the wind changes direction and so does the preferred runway; I just entered the downwind for RWY 12 and the airport switches from RWY 12 to RWY 30 for landing- I am now on the UPWIND leg, remaining at pattern altitude and entering the crosswind (midfield or towards the departure end of RWY 12, and then enter the downwind for RWY 12. I’ve always called it the “Departure Leg” when taking off and staying in the pattern. In a left traffic pattern during a go-around situation, if someone called “upwind” I would be looking to my right for traffic. Jason is right- this could be a safety concern when we are divided on our situational awareness and communicating our location near an airport.

I’ll blow your mind. Two different CFI’s, same airport, non towered pilot controlled……in 16 hrs of flight instruction and well over 100 touch n go’s……never once heard or been required to call out Upwind OR Departure leg. First call l ever make in pattern traffic is left crosswind. But l’ll be saying Departure Leg is my DPE asks me what it’s called. LOL. Great and informative video.

Upwind is what I was taught and I currently use for the leg parallel to the runway, you use this if you have a runway incursion and need to side step or if you are entering the pattern from the opposite side of the downwind, which I know is not recommended, but there are folks who enter the pattern at crosswind and base too. I will make my call as I am taking off that I'm on the departure leg for runway 9. If I am departing the pattern to leave the area, I will make a call Departing the pattern to the West for example.

@emergencylowmaneuvering7350

Жыл бұрын

Rrrighttt

For safety, I was taught, and agree that you should not be on the radio during your departure roll and initial climb out. If you intend to do a touch 'n go, announce that just before turning final, and stay off the radio until you are above 500' and ready to turn crosswind.

When I taught students I told them it is departure but you'll nearly always hear ATC refer to it as upwind. I wanted them to know the correct name, and the in practice name.

Jason, I fly out of KNEW (Lakefront Airport in New Orleans). I have heard controllers say something like "NXXXXX, cleared for takeoff runway 36R, traffic is a Cessna on the upwind about to turn right crosswind, no factor." I have also heard the tower say "All traffic be advised heavy bird activity on the departure leg of runway 36L and 36R." So, i think the FAA may call it the departure leg, but if you say upwind, the tower and all traffic knows what you mean. It seems the terms are interchangeable as the one controller in your video said.

I was taught upwind, crosswind, downwind, base, departure. Upwind being of downwind, departure is extended centerline.

Ever since Trent Palmer’s “inspection pass” was dismissed by the court because the FAA handbook was just guidelines and not binding. I’ve started questioning that the FAR/AIM are sole source for what’s “right”. We train to be standardized with the handbooks, but it doesn’t protect us

I’ve only ever heard and only taught “upwind” at least up here in WI, I’m pretty sure the consensus between our ATC guys and pilots is all “upwind”

I am firmly in the “upwind” camp! (Granted, I learn to fly way before the FAA’s change.) Glancing at the title, I even assumed that this video was going to be about departing the pattern on the upwind leg, i.e. straight out. I agree with you that calling it the departure leg invites confusion!

I think there’s also a difference that I sense (personally anyway), between “upwind” and “upwind le.” Formally, the leg is parallel, here and in the UK where they use a different pattern entry (vs 45-degree or overhead). But the movement and direction either way is upwind, regardless if you’re on centerline or offset or a full leg distance away. Departure leg only refers to the climb out from the departure end of the runway, and may or may not involve an actual departure. That departure leg happens to be the relatively same segment of air for the pattern as the takeoff or go around (unless it’s offset for an obstructed or occupied runway), which are coincidentally upwind. “Continue your upwind (leg or movement)” is wholly appropriate and effective, because “Continue your departure (leg)” will confuse the hell out of someone staying in the pattern. I don’t think everyone has to use exactly the same term all the time, it’s more important that it’s clear to all participants involved in the conversation, including others in the pattern. Nobody should be confused by upwind, if used at the departure end of the runway. Pilots may be confused to hear “departure leg” (which incidentally takes longer to say than “upwind”). And could cause someone to incorrectly think they should keep climbing as well, as in “departure climb.”

I think if someone just departed and calls “turning departure to crosswind,” I’d look for traffic climbing into the crosswind. Whereas, “upwind, turning crosswind,” might have me first look at TPA - co-altitude with me, if I’m in the pattern.

Hey Jason, I thought I’d share this. Per AIM 4-3-2 upwind leg is a flight path parallel to the landing runway in the direction of landing. Departure is the flight path which begins after takeoff and continues straight ahead along the extended runway centerline. Also, Figure 4-3-1

This upwind/departure thing feels like another Mandela effect to me! I've always called it the upwind leg and have never seen or heard it as the departure leg. Hm, will now have to dig out my old 1996 or 1997 private pilot Jepp book... But I agree with you Jason, on keeping the labeling of the legs (upwind, crosswind, downwind...) consistent with each other. And, like you said, hearing someone call "departure" sounds to me as if they are departing the area/pattern. Thanks for another great vid! 🤙🏼

Glad you came up with this. I am (was) fine with both terms UNTIL I learned that the term "upwind" is used for, let's call it the "Dead Side Downwind". And I also think, this is the only problem we have here: That one term has a double meaning. So; I had the exact same situation as you had. I learned "upwind" and just recently I was pointed on the nowadays documentation that says "departure", while referring to something which hadn't had a name in my world up to then as "upwind". I for one will try to follow this new naming conventions. May take a while, but I'll do my best. So long, take care!

I was trained by an old school CFI and He thought me to say Upwind. Just recently I learned about departure leg, the FAA needs to clarify that just like they did when the changed “position and hold” by “line up and wait”. I agree with Jason. Also, I was surprised to see “northwest aeronaut” featured on the finer points, great aviation content too, go check it out if you haven’t!

I learned to fly in the ‘70 and there was only upwind. However, when preparing to became a ground instructor, I discovered this whole departure/upwind renaming business. Now I use the terms per the manuals with departure leg just being on centerline. The only two situations I think of that I use “upwind” is if I need to sidestep for a go around, or if I enter a downwind for a rwy but then once getting a good look at the field I decide to land on the opposite runway, so I announce my position as the “upwind” for that runway.

@Pressplaysubscribe

Жыл бұрын

So do you tell ATC you are extending your departure?

@HelloWorldETX

Жыл бұрын

@@Pressplaysubscribe I guess, in a sense, I always have. From ATC I would request a “straight out departure”, “left (right) departure turnout” but I have said that long before the renaming of the leg because I was referring to departure as a verb, not a noun. I am not sure I have ever requested to “extend my departure leg”. When on CTAF I will announce using the same phraseology. If ATC said “extend your departure” but I already have takeoff clearance, I would take it as “extend your departure leg” because that is the only thing that makes sense. I don’t see them ever saying that meaning to wait, because then they would say “delay your departure” I will need to monitor myself to see what I actually say, but I believe when I am using “departure” as a noun to identify the leg, I say “departure leg” to differentiate it from the verb “departure” I certainly don’t get my panties in a knot if someone says “upwind” when they are on their departure leg, because 1) I know what they mean and 2) I said the same thing for 40 years. Until the FAA emphasizes the switch, it is just my preference to use the latest recommended phraseology. That said, I say it but have always thought “niner” was silly, only say “tree” if the controller says “tree” and I don’t think I have ever said “fife”

I don’t think I’ve ever heard of that in Canada, most of the times in control zones, they always just say “fly runway heading”

I always use upwind as the term that would be used if you joined the pattern parallel to the runway but not on the downwind / or jogged to do a go around.

Figure 4-3-1 in the 2007 AIM uses both terms in the diagram. "Departure" aligned with the runway, and "Upwind" offset from the runway. And AIM 4-3-2 (c) has definitions: 1. Upwind leg: A flight path parallel to the landing runway in the direction of landing. 6. Departure leg: The flight path which begins after takeoff and continues straight ahead along the extended runway centerline. --- So, is a line parallel to itself? It's debated among Mathematicians, some of whom take opposite sides. The common sense approach is to be aware of both terms.

Jason, even if an AC is published with some specific terminology, it may take us all a year or two to feel comfy with the terms. Remember when we switched form "position and hold" to "line up and wait" ? Oh, and I still encounter some pilots who refer to the local Delta as "positive control" - -that's been what, 25 years ago?

Be strict with yourself and generous with what you’ll accept from others. In that spirit, know and understand both terms.

As a student pilot, I’ve always used “upwind”. I may be overreacting but this sounds like a recipe for a mid air collision.

Somewhat new private pilot (4 years), but have a lifetime of family GA experience... I call it the departure leg (and I usually say 'just off the ground') when I'm aligned with the runway and upwind for parallel to the downwind. I do announce that I am 'sidestepping' to the upwind on a go-around or if I am overflying the airport for a windsock inspection. If I hear upwind leg, I do usually assume that they could be on my departure leg. Now that you mention it, it is confusing! hahaha Another change that I haven't got used to is 'line up and wait.' BRING BACK "POSITION AND HOLD!!!"

Needs to be a split term in the hand books. IE "straight out departure" in pattern "up wind" "down wind departure " We can keep going

Interesting discussion. Here in Australia, I've always been taught and referred to it as Upwind and all the material refers to it as upwind. When ATC calls to join upwind, our AIP states "directs circuit entry tracking upwind over the nominated runway centreline". I've been given that before. At non-towered fields, when departing upwind, I'll just say "callsign, Departing upwind runway number, height, climbing ..., tracking...". Also, no turn outs opposite circuit pattern until 500 above circuit, or 3NM from field.

@deanfowlkes

Жыл бұрын

Australia and a lot of other countries have different traffic pattern entries than the US. In the US, there are no Upwind or Crosswind traffic pattern entries. Those are non-standard entries and are recommended to be avoided. We also have a midfield crossover entry onto the downwind. This entails crossing over the airport from the opposite side of and perpendicular to the downwind. If this is done 1000 feet above traffic pattern altitude, you can descend down to TPA 1-2 NM past the downwind to join the downwind from a descending teardrop shaped turn. I have spoken to a few Aussie, South African, and European pilots flying here in the US. They find the local techniques simpler and safer than the Crosswind crossover of the extended centerline.

I agree with you that departure leg leads one to believe they are leaving. We can all take that am with a grain of sand though as I don’t currently have have a stake in the game so to speak (I’m not a certificated pilot). Although even with the statement people are making from the aim whether either is called out on the radio they are headed in the direction of the active runway. However I still agree that the term departure means leaving the area to me.

Upwind is one of the sides of the runway i.e opposed to the downwind side, departure is departure

@SoloRenegade

Жыл бұрын

agreed

@RetreadPhoto

2 ай бұрын

Disagreed.

@RetreadPhoto

2 ай бұрын

That would mean every single controller in America is using “continue upwind” or “continue your upwind” incorrectly. Which would be an asinine assumption or assertion. There’s zero confusion as they use it. AKA “don’t turn crosswind yet, Sonny!”

Next topic, When ATC advises traffic is it “Negative contact” or “Looking for traffic” regs have the official response, I was told by a (questionable) CFII/ATP to not use the FAA reg and use the common “Looking for traffic” Semantics, so I tried negative contact once and was told not to.

Upwind is parallel to the runway. When you're taking off, parallel is OK for the first half or so of the runway but then you better start getting very un-parallel or you'll start bouncing through the bean field. “Parallel” doesn't just mean right and left, it's also up and down and everything in between.

I tend to agree with you, Jason, but I'm happy no matter what we call it so long as we can stop pilots from saying "last call," so I can stop replying "two Bud Lights".

Awesome topic. Almost as much fun as "report 3-mile left base" runway XX. I think a key issue is where does a pilot look when they hear "upwind"? Over the runway as for a takeoff or low approach, slightly to the upwind side as for a sidestep, or equidistant from the runway as the downwind but at pattern altitude on the upwind side, opposite direction (the upwind leg)? Wish there were a unifying term for that portion of the runway along the centerline. For an interesting take, read "So, Where in the Pattern is the Upwind" a Jason Blair blog post. Finally, some confusion can be avoided if using "takeoff", "climbing", "departing", and you're going to stay in the pattern, by adding "left closed traffic" or "staying in the pattern".

@cgtbrad

Жыл бұрын

I primarily fly untowered airports and I find pattern entries instructions for towered airports to be really confounding! It doesn't scare me and I have no problem flying into towered airports, but I almost always ask for clarification or a an approach further out if it looks busy on ads-b. A couple weeks ago I flew into Saint Augustine and the controller told me to enter a 2 mile right downwind. After one vector for traffic, he had me basically on a base at the numbers and then told me to go straight to the runway cleared to land. That was all fine because I didn't really understand where the mysterious 2 might right downwind was supposed to be anyhow! :D

Hi Jason, great video. You mentioned you couldn’t think of when you’d be in a parallel upwind separate from the departure leg. I fly out of the same Hillsboro airport as Sam, and we used to depart on 20 and land on 02 for noise abatement. We would always depart 20, left crosswind, then upwind, crosswind, downwind, base, then final for 02. We always had an upwind parallel to 02. Luckily we now have a more standard pattern with departing and landing on either 02 or 20 (much quicker) By the way, even with that history I call the departure leg upwind. Maybe I’ll start calling it departure leg…

@chetmyers7041

8 ай бұрын

Would you ever call "departure leg" if you are approaching to land or remaining in the pattern? In my mind, DEPARTURE implies leaving the area.

I'm upwind. If I hear departure, I'm thinking they are departing the pattern more or less on runway heading.... Or I might extend that logic to "maybe they meant being on the portion of the upwind leg after liftoff but before leaving the pattern on the runway heading".... I'm with you, upwind is better

I have been reviewing basics for my CPL ground school and it does say the same thing here in Canada. Upwind refers specifically to the upwind side of the field, opposite to the downwind side, but the first leg of the circuit is listed as departure. That said, I have heard it called the upwind and called it that myself. As long as everyone concerned understands what is being said it is kind-of irrelevant.

in Canada we have the upwind side opposite of the down wind side

I agree that upwind is superior because: 1) it’s easier to pronounce and rolls off the tongue faster 2) we therefore spend less mental cycles talking and have more time to aviate, navigate and communicate 3) makes logical and grammatical sense: opposite of DOWNwind is UPwind However, I’m having to learn “on departure leg” for my PPL regardless 😂 🤷‍♂️

I had ATC tell me Sunday to extend my upwind after taking off

I'll have to get my books out but I'm pretty sure when we read the theory, 'upwind' was only used when we stayed in the pattern. I have never used it during my 3 years as a pilot. Yes, I'm new and still learning :) Now, what I do call out isn't departure either, it's more like 'started rnw 19 and entering the pattern'. That said, I haven't been airborne for long so the sample size is small. Might add that I fly only in Sweden and usually only come across very local traffic and the radio is usually quite... non strict? Great content as always, thanks and keep it up!

Upwind. Departure means I'm departing. If side-stepping, I'm side-stepping 'right or left" of centerline. If going-around, I'm going-around to remain in the pattern.

Upwind is only used on a go around (or a circuit without landing). In a full circuit or GA, you turn slightly to the dead side of the runway as you go around. That is upwind. Departure is when you are, departing. I.e after you have just taken off (leaving the surface).

When the controller said "extend upwind" I immediately imagined him saying "extend departure"... and cringed.

Easy: When you leave the TP, it is Departure Leg, when you stay in the TP, it upwind.

I'm with you Jason. The controllers at the airport I'm based at routinely ask us to "Extend Upwind" and I've never heard them say to extend my departure. That would probably confuse me and I would remind them I am requesting a closed pattern.

@emergencylowmaneuvering7350

Жыл бұрын

You can depart the runway and turnaround it to land again, and again, and again, repeat 10 times//LOL>>