Back in the day, when I first tried to research BPOs, I had a POS. I forgot to refuel it, and somebody strolled in and stole all my BPOs. I nearly quit the game lmao

@Dark001

2 жыл бұрын

I agree tho, it is too easy nowadays.

@dannygrant1416

2 жыл бұрын

you didn't have to have it in the pos I had mine in a station in the system and remote used the pos

I'm honestly not sure what the real problem statement that you are address here actually is. Is it that production is too easy and cheap so that too many people do it? Is it that replacement of queues with industry indexes hasn't prevented consolidation? Is it the proliferation of structures? I do think CCP should not have allowed HS keepstars and should probably nerf them. However, all of these problems are easy to address if CCP wanted to. System indexes could scale up much higher and end Perimeter production, except for the items that are still profitable. Structures could be tuned to have higher costs to buy and operate. Production fees could be increased. Basically some veteran players want to say "structures have ruined the game we need to go back to POSes". That is a big load of horse manure. Living in a POS was a shitty experience unless it was YOUR personal POS. The current access controls with personal and corp hangars are so far superior to POS living that it is like comparing living in a modern city to living in the middle ages. Almost all of the issues with structures can fixed by iterating on their attributes and removing them will not fix the issues.

@mastakazam5094

2 жыл бұрын

Basically, there is no additional cost for the extreme mass-industry that used to exist, nothing to hold back extreme production volumes aside from material cost, and it's very easy to do that so we have global overproduction compared to ye olde days

As someone who lived in a C5-C5 wormhole in a POS... I do not miss them (I never did the Indy stuff, just lived out of one for pvp purposes). I definitely agree that Citadels should have a major overhaul though.

I think part of the problem is crafting is essentially a solved problem a handful of people with a heap of characters pump shit out which basically excludes casuals like me with 1 character from being able to casually build a few ships and save a few isk; Its at the point where the vast majority just want to be able to buy affordable ships and know they can get another one when it blows up, as far as im concerned all the industry items just spawn in jita because its essentially a part of the game ive been priced out of by people who min maxed production 5 years ago; I do a lot of abyssals and i have probably a hundred ship blueprints, its stupid that its cheaper for me to throw them out and buy the end product than buy the materials and build the ship, i guess thats just the nature of the game it would be unfair to industrial players if i could build ships for myself and save a tiny bit of isk

All the changing that has been done in general, was done with mostly one goal in mind: To turn the game into a new-player friendly experience. How to change it to be more easy. Faster to grow. Imaging that this game is out there so many years. Some players are in it for decades. How to close the gap with the newcommers. They came up with the new skilling up mechanic (ak injectors). Throw money and u get there faster (plex). They changed the industry. Now it is easier to become a manufacturer and easier to grow faster than the old days. They changed the war mechanics. Changes were made in favor of the defenders. Less wars now. You need upwell structures out in order to wardeck. That means higher risk and more isk demanding requirements. You can say that the game has become a much ''softer'' experience. On the other hand it has become more expensive. And it is difficult to make isk too. You go missioning in a fancy marauder you are a target for ganking. You mine in a Hulk using an Orca alt to boost, you are again in the crosshair. You move your ore, minerals, what have you and again you are in danger. Only a few categories of players make money: traders, gankers and some manufacturers, etc. High sec is not what it used to be (removal of omber, kernite, changes in mining, belts etc). You want the good staff you have to go to low or null sec. I enjoyed the game more in the past. Now I try to adapt to the new conditions.

@Lighthammer18

2 жыл бұрын

As a pretty new player I have to say that the game sounds absolutely awful back then unless you already were established. It's hard enough already for new players with a massive learning cliff, everyone and their mother trying to scam you and the fucking safety cunts ganking the shit out of us in high-sec.

Thank you for video, irrespective of how thing used to be, it's something that's also been on my mind for a while. Amazed that a keepstar has identical upkeep needs. I guess nerfing structures in most ways will just lead to even more consolidation on building to feed tranquility and icy facilities. I haven't yet decide, even after a year of playing what game mechanic draws so many to Jita most, and if it would be a good or bad thing to "encourage" building elsewhere. I mess around in Hek and nearby giving some extra logistics in finding the right build at the right time for profitability. My guess is when I inevitably move to Jita it will be because this becomes tedious and probably then because some game change or fix draws even more consolidation to The Forge. At the moment I enjoy it out here even though it's cheaper in most cases to set buy orders in Jita and transport and sell in Hek, there is still isk to be made.. I remember you saying that industry was a way of fuelling the other activities you do in eve, although by any account you obviously enjoy it and do it well. I think I would support changes that move production and activity out into the universe as a whole, which I think is rather connected to structure mechanics and I would like standings to have a much larger effect on build costs in npc station although this would probably play into tranquility's hands if I think it through. Getting rid of 100% asset safety in high production systems sounds interesting but even more painful for those on the losing end than now. I've had to shift everything from outlining stations to new bases several times in the last year because unlike ttt, I guess most citadels are more a Labour of love than a profit turning machine.

I think the problem with limiting citadels that way would be npc stations are still limitless meaning there would be no reason to pay the costs involved in some ways . The only alternative would be if the npc corps hired corporation factories or corporation labotaries thar would also be at limited space for slots and at a greater cost than that of the independent citadel option .

Great Vid, thank yas!

I totally disagree with you. I am a very small producer, I have and only use two characters. Changes that are often made disproportionately impact upon the small producer. The issue is that you can run huge numbers of alts that is causing the over production. To limit alts and alts accounts will hit the finances of CCP which keeps the game alive so a no go. Limit the number of slots in citadels will not work as you will simply spread out, block the slots and small people like me will never get builds.

the system cost index was supposed to be the fix to the consolidation of production issue. Clearly the costs aren't high enough.

POS's were a total pain in the arse back in the day for most things, remember the amount of time we used to spend POS bashing in null, that said i used one when wormholes first came out and that was great to use there as most people avoided them. For the payer owned station in high sec, i have rarely been using them apart from one where i do my research in, building is done in 0.0 for myself as making money is best through mining, ratting and PI.

I left the game at POSes, came back to citadels. I was a little sad actually, they should give POSs some niche value or role.

@jamesbrown5262

2 жыл бұрын

Well they are used as forward operating bases for wars, with new changes to make citadels easy to kill yo u might see some more people use them as they are harder to kill and take longer now.

@Ghost-sf4zv

2 жыл бұрын

They're used by nomads, offensive operations and as a quick little safe "camp" for lack of a better term. I know people who live out in jspace and NS regions like feythabolis in an orca and POS. Very profitable and adventurous for them.

This might be a little out there. Instead of limiting the slots use the office rental system. Break it down to a level of does your Corp want to do inventions. You need to add an inventions office. As more corps rent offices the prices goes up. Now you only have access to build/research/invent etc. in stations you actually have offices in. This would push the cost of building in some stations way up and might cause more corps to look for areas of space a little farther afield

@ultimatums1337

2 жыл бұрын

I would agree in general that needing to rent a office to build might be good tho if you are the structure owner I do think that should be your rent. But requiring rent in a structure you do not own makes sense and would force people to spread out

not sure what the issue are either. even if they have made it alot easier for people to get into industry, the profittmargins for it are still huge. im mainly making t2 friggs and selling on local marked, and currently got capacity to make about 40 of those a day. depending on ships and race, they usually have profittmargin of around 80-120%. joined a corp few weeks ago that have the best stations for production, so typical 7 hours or so to make an interceptor, compared to twice as long in my old place. doing your stuff in correct stations and systems, in terms of rigs and so stations have, and not to mention system cost index makes a huge difference on bottom line. got a corp mate that got like 250 - 300 reaction slots, that moves alot of ships to jita for sale, and even there the profittmargins on most ships arent bad at all, easily 30-40%

Yes. Outposts were ok, we just needed some other structure to mine moons like now

I do not miss POS's at all, citadels makes wh life more enjoyable 😍 I don't make much in terms of industry except a couple of valueable blueprint I get from exploration from time to time. I mostly supply the builders with materials 😅

Honestly, overproduction in EVE has always been an 'issue' when there's a hole in the market, industrialists have filled the gaps. In the past that was primarily the big alliances and a few really big industrialists. The big difference being that some of us have been at it in EVE for almost 20 years (I started in 2005), the amount of resources you have amassed in all those years could pretty much lock up the industry/market if CCP didn't open it up as they did. I'm really happy that we can still play EVE Online without having to submit to the 0.0 overlords. The massive wealth still has a huge advantage, but there is still room for the smaller/newer players if they want to. The pricing of the 'unlimited' slots is the great equalizer, if there's a lot of demand, higher costs, less profit and certain products become unprofitable. You can move you're production to another system, but then transportation costs become a thing...

Jita (high sec) is controlled by the titans of industry. Null sec is controlled by the mega corporations. If there was a way to say, set up industry in low sec that didn't get swatted by mega corps, that's a new avenue that smaller players could jump on.

I'll agree, while I don't love the idea of the idea of going back to limited slots, there should be some cost to mass-production higher than just system cost index ... probably that should be higher than it is, and maybe a station (owner) can mitigate some of the extra cost by installing additional service modules of the given type - which would then cost more fuel. Oh yeah, and the non-market service modules should cost more fuel! All that cozy station service unlimited and for less fuel? There should at least be a higher base fuel cost for citadel operations!

POS were quite exciting as a new player , the setting them up in null was hairy and they were always running out of fuel , so many times people would just have to fill a hauler in high sec and solo hope for the best to get the fuel there !. Eventually they became tedious and abandoned . I think we used them for pvp bases . Defending them was fun if you had starbase defender 5 or whatever the skill was . there was a name for the max defended ones but i forget it .

@goldeneagle256

2 жыл бұрын

my corp still have couple of poses up, so they still have their uses, mainly for people flying caps. they are big pain to keep fueled tho

Right before CCP reworked industry in 2014-2016 something T1 industry was overproduced despite the need for level 5 efficiency skill. That was before Citadels and new interface. Probably now it is just a question of investing your time to manage logistics, production and selling rather than any other in-game limitation again. Last time I had time to do HS industry in EVE in late 2018 - early 2019 I calculated to be capped at about 120 MIPH counting only the time it took me to setup industry and manage trade. That was decent for HS but also very calculation-intensive despite me having my own industry calculation tools so it felt fair. LS and NS are completely different and it is mostly about your ability to organize cheap logistic of materials and products then production line or production alt amount limitation. Much can be gained there with the stacking of material efficiency bonuses, but then you also need to be able to defend the production plant meaning you in practice cannot do it alone. By the same logic a fleet of alt-miners should be considered a problem in HS as well because you can mine 30+ MIPH per alt and thus pay off your 150 MISK account "bill" in 5 hours of mining monthly. If you want to mine more than that it is profitable for you to scale right until you run out of the capacity to manage this OPS safely.

@Taz6688

Жыл бұрын

Remember when people used to research BPO's to higher levels, it made searching out better prints worthwhile and training manufacturing skills as high as possible to cut losses, now there is no point in any time or effort it's all been nerf'd into the ground.

Agreed! And maybe its as simple as setting up a limit of job slots in Citadels with permits that owners can control for whom gets how many of these to use and who does not. Cause right now its does not make sense for 'me' to have my own Citadel. To me, they are nothing but a pricey liability. But I would love for their to be a good reason to invest into a Citadel. If its not actually profitable, then my spreadsheet say don't do it. I wont. And its a big part of the game I do wish to play with. But I won't spend that kind of ISK just to 'play'. Everything, including War, has to be economical or I find something in game that is.

can i get screwed over when running a job in a publicly available citadel?

Slots Slots Slots! :)

the problems are bigger because of lateral scaling of accounts i have never understood infinite slots either nor its the same fuel cost regardless the station size i can understand having 3 sizes of stations i would prefer a basic station can have 3 service modules but if you put a basic build module with 100 slots you are locked to only being able to add 2 more basic build modules putting up service slots for open rent at a set cost or the owner can give slots out no cost but cancelation of slots doesn't stop active use but stops it after current use or at the end of paid term and fees held in escrow till service time has finished next level of station can use 2 different service top tier can have 3 different having a system where a player can only have 1 slot per npc station is a good idea , i would also like to see more time penalty's on npc as well but i also believe builders should be able to use what they build + science skills on top i also believe system index probably needs a higher % and get there faster than now with it scaling faster the higher the security

I'm a null sec indi/pvper for me the part about them that I think is bad in the keep stars holding supper fleets it made having supper caps to dam easy and as a result there no longer is the big down side to having 1 or 10 now every one has them and forts are to cheap making caps storage a big problem as well

For me- I don't think capitals should be in Low Security space. There, I said it.

Fuel and slots for rent atleast. This is for sure an issue

citadels entered the game with such promise. they were even rumored to be replacing npc stations beside just poses. but then enter the ccp devs and goons in general that started whining about how hard the astrahus was to destroy. fast forward 6 or 7 years and they're simple to blow up now. vulnerable all the time too so no searching/planning for the window. that came into play in delve when we glassed it so it worked in our benefit (be careful what you ask for i guess) .in short i don't think citadels were a bad idea, just piss poor on delivery.

Ccp's improvement's the past few years 🤣

sounds like trying to reduce the amount of stuff in the game by reducing the rate at which it is produced.

Pearl Abyss are the ones trying to monetize everything and destroying the game out of pure greed...

Bring back slots but in a better way then it was before. Getting rid of them was the easy option out that ruined the game.

citadels are not perfect (far from it) but they are only a symptom of the problems eve has. in my experience its more that the developers ( guess pressured from the higher up 's ) over the last 7 to 8 years fucked with people playstyles to much. also if you dont have connections and or a big alliance to defend , citadels are very easy to kill nowday's, and with the cores added not long ago it puts a large target on them (at least in highsec).

Honestly i wouldn't address it. I consider it a feature, not a bug. For disclosure i made 5 bill in production industry in the last month(and more with pi and the products from it). Industry didn't get easier it got harder because researching your markets becomes more important. As in any true free market information is what makes money. The easier access to industry just made it more of a competition. I mean just look at all the comments your videos get from discouraged industrials who thought this was a get rich quick scheme just to figure out their stuff doesn't sell because they didn't research their markets and thus didn't have all information. Apart from that, i might add, there's more defective market mechanisms like hypernet in the game(not complaining). I started an alpha account for hypernet in November and deposited 3 billion isk into it. I keep a spreadsheet with all the accounts assets summed up, and let me just say this is a really easy 6bil profit per month for a 3bil investment(and the profits are only that low because I use some of them for plexing my other accounts and don't reinvest everything). On a sidenote, industry has also gotten more risk. Back in the day you could remote your valuable bpos as in have them in an npc station while using them in a POS. If the POS got blasted, you only lost the work. Not sure(and don't wanna try) if asset safety covers this

@wizardbrandon3544

2 жыл бұрын

Not calling you a lier or anything but most of the things I have checked don't make any money and tend to make minuses (I use ravworks to check ) so I'm not sure how you are making that much at all

@JohnDeaux

2 жыл бұрын

@@wizardbrandon3544 check the eris(two catalyst) for example. Cost about 42m to build sells 56 in jita decent volume. Goes rather well on hypernet too for extra profit. Another example would be Kronos. I build them from the advanced moon materials up at around 300 mil profit a piece. More if I buy mats from buy orders. Kronos sells rather slow though. There are other things like these, do the research

@wizardbrandon3544

2 жыл бұрын

@@JohnDeaux Are you including the buying of the t2 BPC? cause they are expensive as well

@MyKharli

2 жыл бұрын

@@wizardbrandon3544 you remind me when our entire corp wasted 6 months intense science training skills to get into the t2 bpo lottery ...epic fail .

@JohnDeaux

2 жыл бұрын

@@wizardbrandon3544 i am doing the blueprints myself. Megathron bpc is 600k on the market if you don't have the BPO, and prospect decryptor + data cores are about a mil. You get 1bpc about every three runs. Buying the two blueprint obviously takes a lot of profit. But most bpos don't cost that much in terms of how quick you get a return

Citadels are overpowered when it comes to basic logistics, Outposts were already kind of lame, and I get why giving players hangars is important but at the same time having citadels, which you can pop down anywhere, with unlimited storage space, unlimited jobs, unlimited everythingl, just makes industry nothing more then bean counting because its just too easy to get into by anyone, and yet the only people who actually benefit from this are big nulsec empires who can set up XL citadels with rigs and reduce their material needs to the point where anyone who wants to get into any kind of production, especially t1 production, has no chance at turning a profit because a testie or goon decided to flood the market that day

No. Citadels did not ruin the game. How CCP handled(and didn't) some of the timer and build and anchoring mechanics didn't *help* the game. But so much of the issue is WAY beyond the scope of just citadels, from the rorqual/resource boom to the neglect of some aspects of space to the meta shifting to feroxes and muninns and alpha platforms for so long as they did. And let's not forget entosis fax. Citadels were *part* of the problem, but they certainly were not the lion's share. As a reference, I had a large faction Duckstar(thank you youtube) research POS in HS for years with like, 12 research alts. When Citadels came around, I just moved them to null sec for the research boost. Them being in null sec *also* allowed me to train them into rorquals and the like, and take part in even a little of all that hoovering of resources that went on for years. That also being said, POS's generated a LOT of fights. CCP should have not cut them out as they have, but re-envisioned them in their old role of mining POS's so they could continue to do that. Athanor's and Tatara's seem to me to be a poor replacement. But, so too is the meta shift to small, cheap alpha ships a problem in that regard, too. HOW I WOULD ADDRESS IT: I would expand upon what was done with the new components for ship production. Obviously not use metric boatloads of basic PI materials that are an absolute pain in the rear to move, but instead use some of the midtier stuff. I'd also introduce more ship size specific components, so instead of just capital construction parts, have large, medium, and small as well. Drones and shuttles and basic ammunition could still be built with basic raw mining material, maybe basic modules, too, but everything else I'd add more layers to. This would also include more faction based material as well. Lasers and laser hard points have different requirements than missile hard points. Minmitar engineering is different than Gallente. This should reflect in the BPO and materials requirement. Now the bottleneck wouldn't be about how much mexallon you can mine, but how much of the Gallente internal automation systems and large construction parts you have for building your dominix. As for alting, the best solution is counterintuitive. Drop slot requirements altogether. If I don't need an alt to do 15 research jobs, then I won't have an alt. if I don't have the alt, then I won't be inspired to do something useful with it while it's doing nothing but jobs so won't train it into a hulk. Unfortunately, that boat has sailed. There are too many people with trained alts who making that change now wouldn't inspire them to stop using their alts. So, the only viable answer for these is storage fees. Every character using a hangar in the citadel reduces from the citadel's overall storage. Alliances are forced to spread out, put up more citadels, spend more fuel, or else charge their membership to discourage huge stockpiles of stuff. But then again, I'm just some crazy dude on the internet.

Lets just destroy jita and reset the bar......

So... I wasn't around before citadels, so I have no way to directly compare, but... Your premise is that the unlimited number of available production slots in citadels is a large part of the reason that overproduction has killed much of the profit in industry. Question.. why are unlimited production slots in citadels a problem, but the ability to set up unlimited industrial alts "not" a problem? Please don't take this as a criticism, I use multiple alts for farming activities too, but it would seem to me that the ability to set up an unlimited number of alts, paid for through in game activity, is in one way or another in the mix for every imbalance in this game that people complain about. From mining bots to FW bots to null ratting, any activity that can be set up for a minimum of input to generate isk is nearly impossible to regulate as long as there is no limit on the number of alts a single human player can use. Anything that makes PvE activities less tedious, including unlimited production slots in citadels, then becomes subject to abuse by anyone willing to set up the right kind of "alt army". Something like limiting available production slots in citadels would simply lead to more expensive slots and more citadels. It would seem to me that removal of the ability to have more than one standard 3 alt account of ANY type on a single PC would solve many of these imbalance problems. The loss of the ability to multibox would kill the mining/ratting/fw/ganking bot fleets, and the inability to have 27 alts doing planetary/industry/reactions/research would end the imbalances there. One account, up to 3 alts and any PC determined to have more than one account gets all involved accounts deleted. It would probably also institute a wave of rage quitting the game would be unlikely to survive, but it would end the imbalances.

@strange_Net

2 жыл бұрын

Hey Kane, good question and im happy to throw in my thoughts here. With unlimited slots open up the option of having X alts to run production/industry. Prior to this you had limited slots based on the number of POS (Player owned stations the old type) a player was willing to run. These had limited slots of around 40 in total. These could be a mix or just a certain type of activity. To do what I do now with several alts I would have had to have had around 7 POS depending. Each could be attacked, each cost fuel and they had limited space for storage. Fuel at the time was around 500 mil per month per large POS. Management of said POS was a nightmare and scaling it up wasn't great fun (not that this is a bonus). Now in contrast we can have 1x station and the whole of New Eden can use that station for all manufacturing, invention, research. This has lowered the bar massively for players but has encouraged people to make alts for industry. Couple that with extractors and injectors you can have many more accounts for effectively free. Restricting alts would drive many players out of the game. Id guess over 25% of the PCU are alts and pretty much everyone has a second account so the income for CCP would plummet. Eve has always encouraged multiple accounts and was/has been fine for over a decade. So that's why I believe unlimited slots are an issue. However Im not sure just limiting slots is the answer but I should would like to see extra large structures at least have to use more fuel than a regular structure.

@michaelkane6797

2 жыл бұрын

@@strange_Net Good points all, and thanks for the response. While I've managed a few Athanors and a Raitaru, I haven't worked with larger structures. Certain structures offer bonuses to fuel use or module effectiveness, but I never considered the fact that it costs the same to fuel a module in a Sotiyo as it does in a Raitaru. I think you're right, the case for adjusting the ongoing operating costs and perhaps even available slots for various operations could and probably should be made.

no ccp's excessive squeeze of the game.

There is no trouble with Citadels. Since CCP probably monitors this stuff. Be advised and warned. All the nullsec alliances are HEAVILY dependant on citadels. Nullsec alliance are what keeps the lights on. Like it or not, that the way it is. Leave them alone (the citadels AND the alliances) or finally face destruction.

CCP has ruined the game by turning the game into a cash shop grab, furthermore on top of it all CCp has polarized the game into 2 sides just about and keeps trying to force grand scale War for headlines in the game universe by turning everything in to lootbags.....just like they sold out providence's original stations to everyone else ingame by making them lootbags

Skill extraction ruined the game, the game was time locked to an extent, unless you bought a character you had to spend time in game, now you just need a big wallet, you could make a new character, and apart from the time loading the skill point be flying a Titan in a day. The old system was crap, trying to find a slot moving stations just to get a print in, I had mine at the best possible level, almost no loss, some 45me others 30 - 40me with the right skills you had very little loss. Then the elephant in the room decided all prints were going to change, instead of hunting out a good print to fit your skills to cut costs and maximise profit, overnight they were all the same. The only trouble in Eve is the people behind Eve, they bring something in, change something, no matter what, later they find it should never have been changed, unintended consequences ripple out and force other changes and nerf's, nothing they have done has worked out, there has always been some change which ruins something else, then they change something again instead of saying "We fucked up, we need to go back it was wrong"

I think there are much bigger problems with the game, and citadels are at the bottom of the list.

No skill injectors did

For me, pretty much everything ruins the game. I tried playing on Singularity for a while, its a much better experience without other players around. But then I discovered another MMO that has a great community, deep story and horizontal progression so, goodbye Eve! I'd love to sell my accounts... My main would 'cost' about $1500 in skill injectors plus a few tens of billions of ISK in ships.

Obviously a nod to the carbon tax/climate change/green energy crowd. Duh! 😁 sarc.

No. Citadels did not ruin the game, the player are ruin the game.

@strange_Net

2 жыл бұрын

Im not sure what your saying here. Players use the tools we are given how are we ruining the game?

@unclebrave9020

2 жыл бұрын

@@strange_Net The Player ruin the game and not the game self.

Total Noobspeech

You should not talk about things you know nothing about