It´s like solving one of humanities greatest mysteries!

@Bill_Garthright

7 жыл бұрын

Yeah, but it's like a scientist solving quantum mechanics, because I still wouldn't understand it, anyway. LOL

@svenlittlecross

6 жыл бұрын

dude this is so true

Good grief Paradox. It's not surprising people come to the conclusion that the system is broken or that the AI cheats when the way it works is absolutely nonsensical.

@vetgirig4209

7 жыл бұрын

The new system was not better then this.

@marcino457

7 жыл бұрын

Eeki the new system was broken in a different way, if both are shit then I prefer to have the one I'm used to than some new one equally as bad

@jjohansen86

7 жыл бұрын

I'll have to play for a while to make sure, but I don't think it's actually that hard to understand, most of the rules he cites are edge cases (so you might not internalize *everything* that's going on right away, but the main points, the bulk of the system, will make sense right away if you think about it right). The real trick, and the real problem for people understanding it, I think is that they're too focused on the fort, not noticing the return province. That's how I've been thinking. I think that once I get into a game, knowing that the return province is the important thing, I'll internalize the system, probably without remembering all of the edge cases, but knowing the bulk of what's going on. But I'll have to play for a couple of hours before I know for sure whether that's the case.

@Konterfeit

7 жыл бұрын

fixing the system would be ez! Make forts that are sufficiently surrounded (the amount of troops you need to siege it) lose their zone of control because they are BESIEGED! Ain't noone projecting any zone of control from there! And/Or make zones of control block off the supply routes (like distant oversea provinces used to work) instead of restricting movement so harshly, making troops operating without supplies suffer MASSIVE attrition. The way it works now is shit and has been so since its introduction. It was meant to deal with the exploity carpet sieging, but it went the wrong way. Now you can't even pursue armies and you get trapped and wiped for no real reason other than an intricate mechanic forbids your 30k stack to pass by that run-down fort with 100 men in it.

@jjohansen86

7 жыл бұрын

Yeah, I'll buy that it doesn't make sense that a besieged fort exerts ZOC. However, a fix using attrition wouldn't work, since they nerfed attrition with the cap.

That sea return province looks so broken..

@remansparadox8604

7 жыл бұрын

It is, but only if you have an overwhelming force against your enemy. If your foe can defeat your units, they're effectively trapped and can be easily stackwiped.

@axelandersson6314

7 жыл бұрын

Ondřej Šaroun I think it's to simulate that your armies are on on the coast of the Aegean Sea, therefore they can just walk around the forts, but it doesn't make sense how you are able to teleport regiments to the other side of the forts by changing what army they're assigned to.

@cervbond

7 жыл бұрын

In that case it would make sence to allow that even without boarding the ships first

@Blinddragon9

7 жыл бұрын

It is pretty situational and you need naval supremacy in the province first.

@mj11181

7 жыл бұрын

does the boat need to stay to keep the return province on the sea? if it leaves will they be trapped?

who at paradox thought of this system lol, when there's 20 stacks running around everywhere during war in the lategame its impossible to figure out where each one can go and cant go even with the ZoC mapmode. At least give us a mapmode which lets us click on the stack to show exactly where it can and cant go given its current return province or something. Or better yet make a less convoluted system that still has a decent level of complexity from which players can make decisions off but dont have to spend 5 minute studying the map everytime a few stacks arrive at a new front on your boarder or a fort gets taken somewhere

@vitmartobby5644

4 жыл бұрын

ikr, isn't studying the maps fun!

@Muck006

3 жыл бұрын

Without this rule forts would become meaningless ... sort of.

@devilhunterred

2 жыл бұрын

@@Muck006 Why not just make it so that armies can never travel to more than two provinces under enemy zone of control consecutively, which force them to have to siege down a fort to keep going???

Now that I finally understand how forts really work, I am baffled at how Paradox could possibly create mechanics like this... Bypassing forts is simply unfair and gamebreaking in any situation.

@Esty6

7 жыл бұрын

More than likely it was much simpler in the beginning but it led to exploits, so they kept adding more and more 'special rules' to stop exploits but turning it into spaghetti rules.

@escalonn

7 жыл бұрын

Bullshit, it’s not bypassing, it means you left an opening by not considering all possible routes of attack. It is great that this kind of strategic mistake is possible in EU4, which a kindergarten fort system would not allow.

@brenokrug7775

7 жыл бұрын

That's true, Arumba has no clue about it LOL

@zackslaststand

5 жыл бұрын

I don't really think it's particularly difficult, or complex to be honest. It's just poorly explained, poorly visually indicated and poorly communicated and as such incredibly difficult to internalize but when you're a dev who's played a bazillion hours of eu4 and now the ins and outs of the game and designed the system your self I'm sure that it makes a lot of sense. I think this is another case of the classic Paradox problem of what's probably a brilliant system entirely hamstrung but poor communication and tutorialization.

@RafaelCosta-oi3be

4 жыл бұрын

@@zackslaststand I'd say you just pointed out a great p a r a d o x....

Jesus this is way more complicated than I thought

@Madhattersinjeans

5 жыл бұрын

I'm thinking once you can get the hang of some weird game mechanics like this you're good to go for university. This is some logic puzzle stuff. just wtf.

I've watched this video for the last 3 years and I still don't understand forts

@Lawrance_of_Albania

3 жыл бұрын

all i learned is if you make one fort, then leave one empty province and then in next ANOTHER fort, u make an wall, so i made a wall across the balkans and anatolia, if i am defeated or sudenly attack i always have a time to respond Now making fort in midlle of russia is nonsence to me

@deadpirateroberts9937

Жыл бұрын

@@Lawrance_of_Albania So far i’ve done the same fort building for borders except I leave two provinces of space in between the forts, and its worked it saves you from building more forts.

Something I've found in my games that may explain why players think AI cheat on these rules is: if you path an army before forts are unmothballed and then the forts get maintained even if you wouldn't otherwise be able to move to the province where they're heading now that the forts are on because the game calculated the path before there were any zones of control your army will be able to move to its destination. This results in armies being able to skip forts that were not maintained before the start of the war so long as the pathing movement was calculated before the forts were maintained. I suspect that players who often keep their forts off and do not manually turn them on before the start of the war but rely on the checkbox to automatically raise forts and army maintenance when at war feature will see enemies 'cheating' when it comes to their forts because the enemy will have a day at the start of the war when all the forts haven't updated their zones of control because they were just turned on that day. This day gives the enemy's armies a chance to pathfind wherever they want in the player's land. The other side of this is you can get multiple of your enemy's forts if you declare war when they're mothballed and before you unpause direct an army to each fort in the enemy's land.

@mouseman9287

6 жыл бұрын

thanks man

5 ай бұрын

Bruh the ai cheats so much its obvious and kinda frustrating

Even after playing for hundreds of hours you can always learn something new in EU4.

@ystudbeast3

3 жыл бұрын

I am at 800 hours now and I still don't know how forts work lol. idk if i will ever understand it or care to lol xD

Man I always thought that return provinces had something to do with retreating armies... Thanks for the thorough explanation!

Okay, thank you, you've made me understand the system more, which only made me even more sure that it's absolutely fucked. No army movement should work like this in any game ever. I can't understand why they couldn't come up with something other than this convoluted, unenjoyable bullshit.

Pls make more vids like this, you're so great

@remansparadox8604

7 жыл бұрын

Thanks. And don't worry, I have plenty of videos planned. I'm juggling about 30 ideas for new videos right now, spanning everything from new guides, in-depth analyses, mod spotlights, nation spotlights, and other random interesting things you can do/have happen in the game. And those are just my ideas for EU4 videos! I'm planning on getting into Stellaris and CK2 videos as well.

@HumanistAtheist

7 жыл бұрын

Your channel is a candle in the dark. Awesome work. Thank you!

@poetpool7787

7 жыл бұрын

You are my drug

@mokies7811

7 жыл бұрын

+Trader Vic like urbino

Please teach me more buddeh

@1sb3rg34

6 жыл бұрын

Vujo Gaming It's you!

This seems needlessly confusing and it makes me angry

@chunkychew6995

4 жыл бұрын

This one time it was physically impossible for me to finish off the enemy, I got soooo mad and rage quit.

best eu4 youtuber hands down

if this game keeps getting more complicated it is going to require a college course to understand Watched video and wow that is complicated as hell. Would you say it if more advantageous to build your forts one provience back or is it still effective to put them right in the boarder as they'll project a zone of control once you've started pushing the boarder back?

@KnufWons

4 жыл бұрын

Valosar based on what I see it makes the most sense to build them one province back

@RafaelCosta-oi3be

4 жыл бұрын

Honestly it already takes more brainpower than many courses

Great video explaining a terribly presented mechanic! UI elements being obscure (return province) UI elements being incomplete (friendly+hostile ZoC overlaps) UI elements being completely absent (distance rule) Then there's the completely counter-intuitive & unrealistic results that the mechanics create. Oh yeah, and the loopholes relating to the transferring of units between multiple armies...... A terrible convoluted mess of a design.

Thank you! This was a huge help! Thanks for the great visuals, both from the custom gameplay and post-editing. You made it really easy to understand something I'd been struggling with. Love your videos!

Great videos man keep them coming. I am loving the quality and effort you put in. Considering setting up a Patreon as I am sure this takes up a lot of time and it would be nice to support someone condensing all of these wiki's. Keep it up!

More really amazing and helpful information. Probably more actionable information per minute than I have ever seen before on a channel like this. Truly stupendous stuff!

You are the unsung hero of eu4

Once again an excellent video. Great watching you - concise, informative, essential info. Great job.

Man I saw few of your videos. Your videos are so good, informative and well made.. great job man. I played this game since it was published, and I learned from your videos... I am so amazed... keep the good work. sorry for my broken ENG

My brain hurts

Fantastic video as always! Seeing a new Reman upload always makes my day. You've got a little background buzz on the audio though FYI, audible around the 4:11 mark.

Holy shit, Reman, ANOTHER video? You're on a roll!

Reman your voice is butter for my cavities

Oh man this explains a lot, thank you sir!

I don't like the fort system. It's overly complicated. If I have to calculate graph traversals for something as basic as movement, the game design has failed. Also the UI in EUIV is too primitive to display the ZoCs properly, maybe PDX could look at XCOM or Civ for UI/UX a bit, not that Firaxis does a perfect job, but a lot of it is easier to grasp/use.

@jacobmunro4458

7 жыл бұрын

Does Civ or XCOM have anything resembling zone of control?

@mdocevski

7 жыл бұрын

No not zone of control, but other ui elements that display zones, like city radius in civ, bombardment range, or area markers in xcom like granade or possible locations for graple or melee, or other zones displayed OVER the map/units.

@CleverClothe

7 жыл бұрын

Civ has had zone of control for a long time. They have even had different rules over the years. However, Civ is a turn based game so they can do things with ZOC (like slowing your progress) that EU4 doesn't do.

@mdocevski

7 жыл бұрын

CleverClothe​ i ment the ui aspects of it, sorry if I wasn't clear.

@777Terraner

7 жыл бұрын

EU4 is also turn based. Every Day a turn. Only difference to Civ is, that all Players make their turn at the same time, and there is no end turn button but "game speed" and Pause.

Holy crap, this was frustrating me so much in a game the other day and I didn't even know this was a thing! Thank you Reman. Love your videos buddy.

Thank you very much for your guides. They are outstanding! Hopes you will keep making them :)

That was actually much simpler than i thought it was. Thanks!

I have never paid attention to the return province, thanks for the great video clearing things up.

Thank you, this guide is extremely helpful. I think I'll have to watch for these things ingame to really understand them but I get the basics now.

Oh my god the sea rule! How did I miss that! And I thought I understood it well, great vid!

"A bunch of enemy forts grouped together introduces no additional complications" except that you can occupy a fort inbetween others, but when you go back to where you came from its suddenly unreachable. Example: macedonia, edirne and constantinople are forts, start in tarnovo. move to plovdiv, occupy it, move to edirne, occupy it, move back to plovdiv. plovdiv still counts as zoc, edirne now also does. by the distance rule edirne is now unreachable. should it be retaken by its owner, you can suddenly move in.

Awesome Guide! Great work with with explaining it. I was getting kind of frustrated because I was playing Castile, and at war, England beached troops in Vizcaya, but was able to move between all the coastal provinces up there. Now I get why they could do that.

Great guide! Really nice job, achieving to make EU4 seem clear, and teaching stuff to 1000+ h players. Thanks a lot

I like the mechanics. Thank you for the explanation. The last video about trade helped me a lot by playing as the Mayans and making a fortunes in Chesapeake Bay .

This cleared up SO MUCH. Thanks for the explanation!

This is the best EUIV vid I've ever seen. I learned more about this daunting game mechanic in a few minutes than in hours of playing and watching others complain about the 'broken' fort system.

Two videos in a week? Reman you'll spoil us!

Now you are officially my God .

Nicely done. Very useful information. Thank you.

Thanx for this video! I didnt even knew about this complex fort control system. Now I can use it in my benefit, instead of feeling frustrated about it.

If this isn't bad design - rules so complicated you can't grasp them and largely undocumented, and no UI element to show that 'province of origin' or anything else about it...

The end of this video was like watching the god of knowledge download information directly into my brain. I finally understand movement mechanics after only a few hundred hours!

First up, good video on explaining something I simply could not figure out at all by just playing the game. As an avid EU3 player I have just recently switched it up with EU4 and all the expansions (July 4th sale and all) this was one of those things as an EU3 player I had never encountered and was just baffled by. My intro game (playing England) and is playing around with the controls this was massively complicated and infuriating to the point I almost rage quit several times. I totally understand the desire to change things up, but man have they (Paradox) gone overboard with the changes, still learning, a little uneasy about how complicated the game has become. One of the reasons I never adopted Heart of Iron was the insane complication of the game mechanics making it very very hard to get into and to navigate around when your country/empire got too big, alas I am fearing a similar predicament, hoping some sort of automation comes along when I learn more taking away the need to pause every 30 seconds or so to just get a sense of what is actually happening.

arumba was wrong confirmed

@Adriharu

7 жыл бұрын

This is what happens when you become too arrogant. Start blaming the game for your lack of knowledge.

@Percebob

7 жыл бұрын

I can certainly blame the game for making something too complicated for most people in an area of gameplay that clearly doesn't benefit from it.

@HalbyStarcraft

7 жыл бұрын

he articulated one of the 'commonly held misbeliefs' from this video as if it were true, then when it wasn't true, he was sad. specifically thought the return province, and distance from it, had nothing to do with zone of control, and that each province had a specific fort it was tied to... thats what i thought too, this video is awesome.

@joaozin156

7 жыл бұрын

No he wasn't. He even showed in the video, he tag switched to France and he tried to replicate the exact movement that France did in his LP, Yet he wasn't able to do the same thing france was able to do it. So this comment by Reman is wrong, the AI can cheat the fort system whenever they feel like doing it.

@haressae5859

7 жыл бұрын

He was right

Liked, Subbed, and I'm contemplating putting your video in my Sig for EU4 boards

Wow, the 2 province rule enlightened me. Now i understand why the ai can make moves that i could not fathom. Question: If the sea province is set as the return province, does the 2 province rule apply? Means you could move 2 spaces inland way from the water? Can you run THROUGH a fort with the 2 province rule ?

@jacobmunro4458

7 жыл бұрын

>If the sea province is set as the return province, does the 2 province rule apply? Means you could move 2 spaces inland way from the water? The fact that it DOES apply is why setting the sea province as the return province allows you to march around the coast. >Can you run THROUGH a fort with the 2 province rule ? This is also shown in the video, multiple times at that.

@gregtorlinski3249

7 жыл бұрын

You can't because you only count empty zones for the 2 province rule.

@souldeluna

7 жыл бұрын

What is shown is that you can move 1 space away form the sea province as every province borders the return province. It was there that he showed that you can run through forts but they all were adjacent to the sea province, my question would be if the rules change if you try the same on only land? Run from the border through a fort to siege a fort behind which is only 2 provinces away from you. Another question i have is that i read somewhere if you split your troops behind enemy lines they will lose the return province, is that correct? Or will only one army have the return province set and the other one has none set?

That trick of moving all your units to the "relief force" can save many games!

Holy shit! It actualy makes sence. This has been so helpful

Really dig the vids, you deserve more subs. ZoC is stupid I really preferred the way they had redone it in the beta a while ago, where a fort protected all lands in an 'Area' as defined by the game, it was so much more intuitive and easy to understand.

thx for that. this was giving me a headache for quite a while. Cheerz.

amazing analysis 👍 certainly gives me new informations

Everything in this game is quantum physics. Reman, you're a goddamn hero.

Rules: 1. 3:30 You can always move from an empty province to any other province 2. 3:41 You can always move to previous province; this won't exile your troops 3. 4:04 You can always move to a sea province 4. 4:18 You can move to any province up to *2 distance away* from return province 5. 6:28 You can always move into adjacent fort if in ZoC 6. 8:38 You can always move to/from friendly Zoc. The map can be misleading 7. 10:01 Occupied forts have no effect on yourself Rules 4, 5, 6, and notes e and f are the ones to remember. Try to not have 1 province thin ZoC walls Notes: a. 1:10 Types of provinces b. 1:40 Return province basics c. 2:54 or 5:26 Distance from return province extends into accessed countries d. 5:47 or 6:58 Rule 4 or 5 allows you to "ignore" forts on coasts if return province is the sea. Not sure how these are different e. 7:25 ZoC never crosses enemy borders, regardless of occupier f. 8:02 ZoC extends into neutral territory g. 9:30 Occupied forts do not have a friendly ZoC

You help me a lot, great video! Thank you!

you're simply awesome, Reman

Again great video!!! Man where are you? Give more EU4 content cheers!!!

Finally figured out what that fort with the flag means, thank you!

Amazing work 👍

Will you ever post more videos, Reman? You got me into EU4, and I've enjoyed every single thing you've put out.

You completely nailed it!

Do you need to maintain a transport fleet in the sea tile for it to stay a valid return province?

@remansparadox8604

7 жыл бұрын

Nope, the return province still stays there even if your boats move. It also stays in neutral land if you lose access.

OK, _this_ is confusing! But it's a lot better than the understanding I had previously. And at the very end of your video, I think maybe you've cleared up a puzzle for me. Thanks! I had a problem as Korea invading Ming. At one point, I took their fort and moved past it into open land (their land) that had no zones of control. But then I couldn't get out again. It was like a one-way door. I could roam around taking provinces that weren't within a zone of control, but I couldn't escape from them even through the province with the fort (which I still controlled). Eventually, I just made peace, so I could get my armies out of there. I controlled all of the provinces - the one I was moving from, the fort province, and the province I was trying to moving into. But if I understood you correctly, I reset the "return province" when I went into enemy land that no zone of control (because I'd taken the fort that had established that zone of control). That still seems screwy to me. But next time I play, I'll have to look for that "return province" icon. I never even knew it existed. So this video will help, even if I still don't understand everything. Thanks!

This is very helpful, thanks for making it

This is much needed. Thank you.

@krblack4009

7 жыл бұрын

BTW you should be Paradox's new minister of clarification.

Rule 1: You can go from any empty province to any other province Rule 2: A unit can always return to the last province it was in previously Rule 3: You can always move from a land province to an adjacent sea province regardless of any forts Rule 4 (Distance Rule): Units can move to any province that has a distance of 2 or less from the return province Rule 5 (Fort Rule): Units that are on a zone of control province can always move to an adjacent province Rule 6 (Friendly Zone of Control): You can always move to OR from provinces with friendly ZoC Rule 7: When your troops take a fort, the province reverts to whatever it would be if the fort was deleted (but it still generates a hostile ZoC against enemies)

@KnufWons

4 жыл бұрын

Rule 5 only applies to Fort provinces

This is great - wish i could upvote it more than once. 1 Question though: With Strait crossings, do the sea tiles count torwards the distance rule or do the linked provinces count as adjacent?

This is really helpful. One thing, though; the AI does *kind of* cheat. They can't access provinces that they shouldn't, however, if they can reach a province by any of these mentioned rules, no matter how far or how long it would take them, they can take the most direct path. This was apparently added to prevent exploits, however, it is easy to see that it could lead to them walking straight through a fort and thus people come to the opinion that it's broken.

@Splax77

7 жыл бұрын

There's no "kind of" about it. If the AI is allowed to make moves that would be invalid for a player in the same situation (which it is), then the AI cheats.

I´ll bet this guy is a teacher. He´s great at this

Reman, I love your videos, could you make posts detailing if anything changed for the 1.3 update?

Amazing video!

you are doing gods work

Could you explain how forts effect movement in other ways? I was unable to move an army into a small one provience nation because it had a fort. The tool tip said it was because a fort prevented movement across Rivers or something. Since the province was surrounded by a river I couldn't touch it. I know if I had ships I could have invaded from the sea but it seems silly that I can't cross a river because of a fort but he can cross into my land freely!

This guy speaks enchantment table

3:15 confuses me, why would olonets be a 2? wouldn't it be a 1 since its an neutral right next to the neutral 0?

Hey first of all, I love your videos they're really helpfull and great if you're trying to know more about the inner workings of the game. Second, one thing i think you didn't touch on in the video that i was wondering about is, what happens in the example of the aegean sea being the return province if your fleet gets wiped out by an enemy navy? Do you simply not have a return province, does the aegean sea stay as an acting return province while not actually being one (you can still move around as if it was but if your army gets taken it has no where to return to), or does it reset to being the last province you where in capable of being a return province ?

I once had walked into a system of 4 forts or something and got my army stuck inside so I was wondering if you could think of a way I could use that, like a set of 4 forts borders to trap ai invading armies

So when you merge two army with different return province, the return province will be the same as the first army?

Oh my god! I knew I recognized that song, I've been a longtime listener to iamsleepless (:

Why every non used province when you create custom nations is colonizable? When I create a custom nation the other countries aare still there. How do I change that? Thanks for your answer

guy in 2020 here .... I love you man!

Reman, would you consider an analysis video explaining what happened in Arumba's Rights of Man campaign?

Thank you! I would guess that most people have the same problem I did: Not aware of the return province mechanic, that this is what really matters. I had no idea that the return province was the main thing the game used to calculate, so nothing made sense. I think I'm going to be using and abusing a lot of the things I've learned. For example, there might be more border gore between myself and an AI that I plan to attack in a later war, as I take provinces that can serve as amazing return provinces and let me access a ton of land with the forts the enemy has up.

as a new eu4 Player i see people in comments talking about old and new system, is this system still the way it works or did they make different movement system now ?

God i love your videos, they clear so much shit up.

Great video, didn't understand everything, but that rule of the return province will be so useful. I always play carefully anyway, and I try to not overlap ZoC with my forts to avoid problems. I think that's the simplest rule for building forts at least. If you don't overlap ZoC, you will see a more expected behavior.

Great vids. So how do you calculate/know enemy stack's entry province?

One thing that I've learned to be cautious about is merging armies during a siege. I typically split my armies to avoid attrition, but when you merge them, the return province can get lost. I once got stuck on a single province I couldn't leave with an army too small to siege down the fort it was on, and couldn't disband it either.

Since the introduction of ''devastation mechanics'', having forts withing you territory and not just the border is very valuable. Devastation ticks down at 0.08 a month whereas you can get 10-15% devastation in one little war. It would take forever to tick down, but, provinces within the zone of control of a fort get an additional 0.80 down tick a month for a total of 0.88 a month. That is 11 times faster with a fort than without one. I have a fort in every state just for this reason alone. I can recover in 2 years from a war whereas without forts, you would need 20 years between wars to recover your 'devastation'... Anyways, great video :D

I know zone of control doesn't apply across enemy borders, but what about ally or subject borders? If I have a fort on the border with any ally in a war, will my forts zone of control effect their provinces?

At 4:50 could the army move into Etkara as that would be only 2 provinces away from the Return Province, thus bypassing the wall of forts?

Great information, thank you

Great video! The reason that people say that the ai cheats is because if they can get to a province in any way, they're allowed to take the shortest route to the province. This causes some problems, because the ai should sometimes only get to your province by taking the long route through Siberia, but they can just walk through your forts in India if that route exists. Edit: Clarity

Thank you Sifu Reman.

thanks for teaching me what pedagogically means

Very well done, thank you!