Thank you Pheelan for hosting another great podcast and thank you to Tristan and Steve for a great conversation! I am posting this as a general response to all those that I know are going to take issue with what I said concerning Rome and Pilate. I am not going to be active here in the comments but if anyone would like to debate me about these issues in this channel we can set that up with Pheelan’s blessing. I am out of the eschatology business as far as my channel goes and am going to focus history and ethical teachings like I’m doing now with my Hillel Study but am open to discuss All Things Eschatology here. Below is my blanket response for anyone taking issue with what I said about Rome and Pilate: I know that the power structure in 1st Century Israel was complicated. I know that there was participation on the side of the religious system but ultimately Rome was in control 100% from the time of 6 AD when Herod Archelaus was diposed and it wasn’t much different before that time with Herod. My problem is people associate the “rebuke passages” of the Jews with the general population and that cannot be the case. How else would Jesus have developed such a large following to the point that the Romans needed to bring a “cohort” which is 1/10 of a legion or possibly 600 Roman Soldiers and arrest him at night??? I’m trying to bring some balance here and understand what actually happened and what makes the most sense historically. Have you ever considered which Prophets were actually killed by the Jews in Jerusalem?

@pheelanmcphalen6390

2 күн бұрын

Thanks for the insight, Jeremy. I am all up for hosting a debate on this subject! Let’s see if there are any takers, so we can make plans to do it. Incidentally, I also plan on debating the issue of inerrancy later this summer. I’m not at the point of issuing any “challenges” yet, but will be shopping the idea around to different platforms to see who’s interested. It is a very touchy topic, so we’ll see.

@NHNEU1111

2 күн бұрын

@@pheelanmcphalen6390 Thanks Pheelan, appreciate it!!!

@18144cascade

Күн бұрын

Hi Jeremy. On Pentecost Peter stood up and referred to Joel's prophecy as proof that these were the "last days". It was the last days of the age Joel was living in at the time of his prophecy, or OC Israel under the law. Then he said "all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of "these days". This is followed in the rest of the NT by numerous time statements in all of the Hebrew and Paul's epistles that are in complete agreement that the end of all things was at hand, near, at the door, in a little while. Peter said God was not slack regarding his promises taken with an oath. Then Jesus himself told the apostles that all things would be fulfilled in "that generation"and He said when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then look up for your redemption draweth neigh. The destruction of Jerusalem was the sign he gave the apostles of the end of the age that Joel referred to. Nowhere does it say anyone was required to have a tingling feeling. What changed ,in the twinkling of an eye, was not us, but the world we live in changed. It went from a world of sin and death to one where righteousness dwells - where the blood of Christ cleanes us from all sin. This is inescapable logic. To get around this Thristian said the story is a myth but you and and Brian are looking outside the Bible to history and translation to claim the Bible is wrong. For example, Peter, on Petecost day specifically said OC Israel killed Jesus. Peter said, "Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, "you" have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain", The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom "you" delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go. Pilat said, 'I am innocent of this man's blood,' he said. 'It is "your responsibility!' All the people answered, 'His blood is on "us and on our children!'" In the face of this, who do you say was responsible for Jesus death - don't look in the Bible at OC Israel, you should look at history, it was Rome. I think you don't like the conclusion of the story: "the blood of Christ cleanes us from all sin". But if all in Adam is everyone and all in Christ is also everyone; that is universalism and there is no more sin. This is why righteousness dwells now. We didn't change, but our world changed. The blood of Christ cleanes us all from all sin and we are free. What could be better than that? I think the question you need to answer is the same one OC Israel faced - was Jesus Israel's messiah. If he was all things written were fulfilled in "this generation".

@pheelanmcphalen6390

Күн бұрын

@@18144cascade Hi Don, this is exactly why we’ve spent so much time on 2 Peter. If that was written after A.D. 70-which I believe we can prove-it blows your hypothesis out of the water. There is no legitimate, peer reviewed scholarship that will agree that all the NT writings were written and canonized by A.D. 70. All I’ve seen to support that approach are a few guys who write books and pat each other on the backs. The invitation is open to you to come & discuss these matters in a live stream environment with us.

@NHNEU1111

Күн бұрын

@@18144cascade Hi Don, you have been a bigger part of my journey than you realize. You were the first one on my channel to introduce me to textual criticism and said we need to be detectives and not just accept everything they way it is. Have you done your homework on the book of Acts? There is way more there than in Daniel 11. I appreciate all I’ve learned from you, I wouldn’t be where I am of it wasn’t for you introducing me to Irrevocable. I made so many mistakes in the past. I’m content with calling it the way I see it and leaving all options open as a possibility.

It seems like Pheelan/Brian wants to adopt Tristan. He has him on every week.

This was an enjoyable, albeit at times heated, discussion. Thanks, guys! I think next time we’ll have another FP on board, though, just to make it more balanced. Also, apologies to Steve for appearing to pile against him. It was unintentional.

@pheelanmcphalen6390

2 күн бұрын

@stcizzle Again, Steve-unless you can affirm the Apostles’ Creed & Nicene Creed, your moral outrage is a bit absurd. Max King was a fanatic and a quack who didn’t understand that the Bible he was holding was the result of centuries of development, and was not magically dropped down to earth in A.D. 70.

@davo_pantelist

2 күн бұрын

@@pheelanmcphalen6390 Brian... You seem to chastise Steve for some apparent “moral outrage” though I thought he was just sharing some heart-felt opinion, but then you've immediately followed that with this... “Max King was a fanatic and a quack who didn’t understand that the Bible he was holding was the result of centuries of development, and was not magically dropped down to earth in A.D. 70.” Considering you've said of yourself in this very presentation not to have ever read Max King... like what gives, how does that gel!? Just sayin'.

@pheelanmcphalen6390

2 күн бұрын

@@davo_pantelist Hi Davo, just to clarify, I hadn’t read Max King when I endorsed FP & Universalism. However, I have since read his material. I have his 700+ page book “The Cross and the Parousia.” I respect Steve. But his position was the weakest in the room. Anyone who thinks that the Massoretic Text is a “pure” version is severely deluded. Even the modern critical editions of the Greek have to take account of the various readings. How can the Bible be “inerrant” if it’s a translation based on impure texts? Steve clearly didn’t know what to do with this info, and it shows.

@pheelanmcphalen6390

2 күн бұрын

@stcizzle What I’m saying, Steve, is that your claim that the 2nd coming is past places you outside of historical Christianity-by any creedal standards. So who cares if other doctrines formulated by the church since the Reformation are true or false? You should be endorsing more intellectual inquiry, not less 😌

@pheelanmcphalen6390

2 күн бұрын

@stcizzle Hi Steve, I would disagree slightly with your proposition that God preserved the scriptures, and amend it to say that God preserved the Faith. I agree with the principle of General Inerrancy, but not with Absolute Verbal Inerrancy. And it seems that if the doctrine on which the 10,000 Protestant denominations are built. I would rather say they got that part wrong & that God preserved the faith, than that God preserved the texts but didn’t preserve the “one faith” of the church. We agree in the middle on many things, but we start from opposite ends of the room. I have said before that I don’t agree with mythicism. I haven’t studied the whole Plato/Socrates connection yet, but have Plato’s works and will look into it when I have more time. Personally, I think mythicism is just trying to shock people. There are academics out there who don’t believe in a Christ & have way too much time on their hands, & they are competing with each other on shocking the religious community. I think that is childish and transparent. Some of my views may shock ppl, but I am not stipulating my arguments based on their shock value. Time & better scholarship will correct that.

Sorry guys, but this was crazy. It is not time statements that determine who is in Christ and who is still in Adam or in Moses. One is in Christ BY FAITH and one is in Adam by nature (birth). If one is in Christ, they are "under grace." If one is in Adam, they are "under Law." Full Preterism messes everything up by saying we are in the NH and NE, which is when sin is no more. Full Preterism states that the Law passes away with the passing away of the heavens and the earth, which for them is the Temple. Tristan is right. If Full Preterism is true, then anything after 70 AD is meaningless! He's also right about the fact that Christians have inner turmoil between the flesh and the Spirit. That's because we are NOT in the NH&E. Thank God Full Preterism is simply a lie. Why not just admit that Preterism misinterprets the time statements and gets everything wrong. Jeremy does a good job of showing that Rome was the true beast! And guess what? The beast was not defeated in the first century and cast into the lake of fire. So, I guess there is another beast to come up from the Abyss. I know Tristan talks over people, but he is really just asking how the Christian experience changed after the NH and NE became a reality. I would have liked to hear Steven's answer. Pheelan is absolutely right about the separation judgment and the flood motif. I would have loved to ask Steven, doesn't fulfillment mean that ALL the motifs have to be fully met in 70 AD for FP to be true? I almost felt sorry for Steve. Not really. I hope he realizes the futility. Full Preterism is officially crushed!

@davo_pantelist

2 күн бұрын

@MrCGal220: "Tristan is right. If Full Preterism is true, then anything after 70 AD is meaningless!" I wouldn't give Tristan's thoughts on "preterism" too much credence... he's on record as believing that both Jesus and the NT are mere "myth".

1:04:42 I’m not sure I would be so dogmatic about who the good guys and bad guys were in 70AD. That is always a matter of human perspective, depending on the “side” you’re on. One thing all can agree on is AD 70 is a judgement - and it is at least a judgement on what is remaining of the Israelite nation. Zephaniah 1:7, regarding a coming judgement on Judah refers to them as YHWH’s sacrifice. And those who were coming to destroy Judah as YHWH’s “consecrated” guests. Whether this refers to Babylon or Rome, it should shed light on the situation as to God’s perspective of the good guys and bad guys. Israel accepted the covenant with YHWH and he explained what would happen if they upheld or broke the covenant. We can have trust in God because he is faithful. He did what he promised he would do. Thus demonstrating to the world HIS faithfulness.

@pheelanmcphalen6390

Күн бұрын

Thanks for weighing in, Russ. There’s a lot about this subject which we’ll have to get into in another panel discussion. Perhaps you’d like to join! I agree that “bad guys” & “good guys” are not always readily identified.

@NHNEU1111

14 сағат бұрын

Hey Russ, I should have explained better but this was a hot one and things were moving fast. I was attempting to draw out what the authors perspective of who the bad guys were. I am convinced that Rome is the Beast and The Harlot so the attention of judgment is focused on them. How this affects everything else in Revelation I’m not sure yet and need to do more research but I’m trying to bring some balance to the view in the preterist world that this is all about 70 AD and the Jews getting judged. I can at least say that Chapters 17-18 are not about 70 AD and the focus is Rome getting judged for persecuting the Christians.

Folks: anyone who thinks that the Massoretic Text/Leningrad Codex is a pure restoration of the Hebrew Tanakh is invited to read Robert Govett’s “Dissertation 2” in his book “Isaiah Unfulfilled.” Govett was a proto-dispensational author. His contention, supported by contemporary scholarship, is that the Masoretes corrupted the Hebrew text due to their cultural and religious biases. If his allegations are true, then this blows the doctrine of inerrancy right out of the water. archive.org/details/isaiahunfulfill00govegoog/page/n15/mode/1up

I don't understand the rejection of universalism by FPs, their own position isn't widely accepted and is controversial to begin with, plus its not like they put much weight on church history or tradition anyway. I actually don't see much of a problem with universalism, many orthodox Christians have held this in history, I think FP is the problem here, not the salvation of all. Great discussion btw.

@NHNEU1111

14 сағат бұрын

Thank you I agree! I tried to ask Steve what his issue with Universalism was but we moved on to something else and I let it go.

the church fathers thought JESUS was GOD on His Cross (the abomination of desolation) ...that means they were not Resurrected ...they were blind to it like most today.

Brian is way too interested in IO, I think he has a crush on it. He will probably become IO soon.

@pheelanmcphalen6390

Күн бұрын

Personally, I believe that apostolic Christianity ended in AD 70. I’ve held that view for a very long time. I identify with confessional Christianity-not apostolic Christianity. I argue for ancient Catholicism, not for preterism or dispensationalism-though I agree with certain points made by both parties 😌

@BibleTheory

4 сағат бұрын

This is a mean-spirited comment that misses the point of a conversation meant to search out the truth. As a fellow believer, I went straight to praise and worship music in my car to thank God that there a people like these men willing to dive deep and search out the tougher matters. I think Pheelan has made his position quite clear, yet you would still make this public rebuke?

@pheelanmcphalen6390

Сағат бұрын

@@BibleTheory Thanks, Ben. I’ve dealt with Jerry A. briefly on fb. He makes a lot of accusations. 🙄

Jeremy... IF in your mind you find the heinous bloodbath of AD70 couldn't have had attached any redemptive reality associated with it, THEN you must likewise IF you want to be consistent, cut all and every redemptive reality associated with the likes of the Exodus from Egypt before it, where countless dead were likewise associated with that event all of which in the focus of the Scriptures was indeed portrayed as a redemptive reality... you CAN'T have both ways, at least not consistently - just sayin'.

@NHNEU1111

14 сағат бұрын

Hey Davo. My issue is I believe most of the NT minus Paul’s undisputed 7 letters were written after 70 AD. If there was a redemptive quality to AD 70, why is it never mentioned by any NT writer. Did any early Christian’s believe there was a redemptive reality to 70 AD?

The last Adam is us as we Resurrect. [1 Corinthians 15:44-45 KJV] It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. The Original Greek didn't have "LORD": [1 Corinthians 15:47 KJV] The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

What a shame!! 4 men who have read the scriptures and other historical books etc still don’t understand God’s main objective that is clearly stated in the Holy Scriptures…….. Pheelan is dominating the discussion because it is his platform…This is what he does all the time….nearly all that he said is gossip! Jeremy asked “how did they experience the change”? Dumbo!!! The change began when Christ started his ministry and it was completed when Christ resurrected……

@NHNEU1111

14 сағат бұрын

I was referring to the change in 1 Cor 15. I know you don’t believe that was fulfilled at the Cross. The issue wasn’t a when question it was a how question. The dilemma is they already had the spirit but Paul was looking for another change. “Putting on immortality”

Jeremy my friend. I don't even know where to start when you said "who killed Jesus" then quoted the creeds and said Pilate killed Jesus. He came in that time in history for a reason. At the beginning of Jesus’ ministry after the 40 days in the wilderness, Jesus came to Nazareth went into the synagogue and read: (Isaiah 61:1-2) Jesus closed the book mid-sentence, and sat down. (He only offered mercy.) (Luke 4:16-22) • Did not include: “and the day of vengeance to comfort all that mourn.” The end of his ministry Jesus spoke to the multitudes, and the Scribes, and Pharisees in Matt 23. Chastised them for their many crimes to the people. Accusing them for what they and their ancestors had done to the prophets He sent, that were killed and crucified. Jesus said that on you (those standing there) will come the judgment of all the righteous blood shed on the earth. • “The day of vengeance to comfort all that mourn.“ The finished sentence in (Isaiah 61:2) • “How long, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” rest a little while longer, until your fellow servants, who would be killed. (Revelation 6:10-11) (5th seal) • For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all things take place. (Luke 21:22-33)

@NHNEU1111

2 күн бұрын

I know that the power structure in 1st Century Israel was complicated. I know that there was participation on the side of the religious system but ultimately Rome was in control 100% from the time of 6 AD when Herod Archelaus was diposed and it wasn’t much different before that time with Herod. My problem is people associate the “rebuke passages” of the Jews with the general population and that cannot be the case. How else would Jesus have developed such a large following to the point that the Romans needed to bring a “cohort” which is 1/10 of a legion or possibly 600 Roman Soldiers. I’m trying to bring some balance here and understand what actually happened and what makes the most sense historically. Have you ever considered which Prophets were actually killed by the Jews in Jerusalem?

@Reborn-Adopted

2 күн бұрын

@@NHNEU1111 [Matthew 21:37-41 KJV] But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. 38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. 39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him. 40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? 41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

@Reborn-Adopted

2 күн бұрын

@@NHNEU1111 [Acts 2:23 KJV] Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

@james-cq3mi

2 күн бұрын

@@NHNEU1111 You know that Pilate had no desire to kill Jesus, but the apostate Jewish leadership sure did. "And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming." (2 Thessalonians 2:8) The power base that dwells in the temple now has all of the authority to persecute the saints, which was given by Nero. They aggressively did that for 3 ½ years. The dragon gave power to the land beast. (Revelation 13:4) • Peter and John healed a man and was teaching the resurrection of Jesus from the dead. The Sadducees were filled with indignation, put them in prison. (Acts 4:6-7, 5:17-18) • Stephen addresses the high priest and the counsel and reminded them about the call of Abraham. Explains what God’s true tabernacle was (temple not made with hands) and accusing them of resisting the Holy Spirit. The presiding authority, this high priest, sitting in the temple of God and unlawfully passing judgment, Stephen was cast into the city and stoned. The witnesses laid down his garments at the feet of Saul (Acts 7) • Here Paul later defends himself and explains what happened on the way to Damascus, and prior to that the high priest gave him letters to bring back in chains those Christians who were in Jerusalem to be punished. (Acts 22) Now Paul is a threat so the chief priests and certain Jews and they plotted to unlawfully kill Paul. (Acts 23) • The Sanhedrin plots to kill Jesus and persuades and colludes with Rome to do it. This is the time when the chief priests say “we have no king but Caesar.” Jesus will meet Caiaphas, the high priest at that time, face to face. Matthew 26:62-66 (the man of lawlessness)

@juenmmonterrey7767

Күн бұрын

@@NHNEU1111 no, rome was not 100% in control, that just shows how biased you are, but you have a knack on eventually getting it right... the edomite jews had some authority and some deals in place where they had the last word..idk why jeremy or you have made a topic of the simple fact it was passover, the jews could kill or release a prisioner and the jews decided to release barrabas and kill jesus , as easy as that... bonkers me how jeremy and you go on rabbit trails.

Steve is gasping for air, because he was taught to cherry pick his way through the bible, but when you get challenged on your beliefs thats when the cognitive dissonance appears. You have to learn to let go of your belief and what ever translation you hold onto. Learn each book of the bible is written by different authors at different times with different beliefs. The bible is NOT a cohesive book, if you believe it is, you have some studying and research to do, you are holding on to a phantom.

@pheelanmcphalen6390

Күн бұрын

Hey, Simon! Long time no hear🙌. So how would you explain the events of A.D. 70? It supports Christ’s parabolic eschatological teachings regarding a purgation and transfer of authority. The wicked tenants were cast out in A.D. 70, and what we know as the Church of Rome presumptively took over from that point. At least, we can say that Christianity ceased to be a Jewish religion after A.D. 70. 🤔