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@markrussell3428

3 ай бұрын

Stock is one of very few to actually debate a transgender advocate. It would be interesting to hear her reflections on debating Deirdre McCloskey (born Donald N. McCloskey). This is a renowned American economist desperate to recieve the Nobel prize who threw away family to go down the autogynaphlic self-absorbed narcissistic route. This comes through if you listen to McCloskey. It was fascinating to see how uninformed an individual that can be brilliant in one field can be so delliousional in another.

@jennawikler4987

3 ай бұрын

It upsets me that gender-critical people are assumed to be extremely right-wing.

@louisapatrice4488

3 ай бұрын

@@markrussell3428😊

@markrussell3428

3 ай бұрын

@@jennawikler4987 Jenna, you left out racist, bigot, misogynist and phobic everything.

@unnamed3932

Ай бұрын

@@jennawikler4987 Don't let it upset you b/c it's a manipulative tactic they use to shut us up & discredit us in the eyes of their cult. They need to keep their cult fearful so they won't stray off the rez so to speak. We know most people are liberal in this camp who are critical of the 'gender' cult & don't need to outsource our thinking to a tribe & don't hv to agree on everything.

I'm a straight woman but I've worked in male dominated fields (I'm a landscaper) most of my life and have always been told I think like a man, act like a man and dress like one too. Im still a woman who likes men. So what am I? A woman!

@balalaika852

3 ай бұрын

I've been told many times I'm like a man too. I find it's a form of sexism. As if women can't be bold, opinionated, and like casual sex, which are the reasons I've been called a man several times.

@carolynbrightfield8911

3 ай бұрын

Ditto here. (Retired science(biology) high-school teacher. Do the two boys (now men in their thirties) both natural births (no drugs) and two years breastfeeding each one qualify me as a woman? Or do the flat shoes, pants, no make-up, solo grey nomad (50 year hb at home with the dog. He loathes camping) make me a man? So over this craziness. We fought so hard to judge each individual on "the content of their character."

@matthewatwood8641

3 ай бұрын

I'm a man. I am artistic, creative, and a musician. I'm much more verbal than most men are. I played sports when I was a boy, but I don't follow professional sports now, and I've never had much interest in football, (I like rugby a lot better). I don't feel one bit like a female.

@matthewatwood8641

3 ай бұрын

​@@balalaika852It's not form of sexism. It's because people don't expect a woman to behave the way a man usually does, they expect her to behave the way a woman usually does. But I'm sure that you will much prefer to insist that it is sexism.

@balalaika852

3 ай бұрын

@@matthewatwood8641 How does a woman behave? I'm surrounded by women who are opinionated and forceful. It seems a commonplace trait among women. Same way it's common for men to be artistic and talkative. Even though men get bullied for not being into sports, it's extremely common for men to have no interest in it. Seems like sexism to me.

“It doesn’t have to be a terrible blow to your wounded ego that you don’t get categorized in ways that don’t fit you.” Excellent sentence. Thanks for this interview.

As a lesbian, l used to be an unquestioned trans ally, who didn’t mind using “preferred pronouns” etc. I one met a guy in First Out who was dressed as a woman. Felt sorry for him as he was alone and got chatting, asked his name, and in a very deep voice he said “DAVID”…I was a bit shocked 😳 and thought it was weird. because how could I play along with the idea he wanted to be seen as a woman. I cringe when I say this, but I did ask him “erm…have you got another name?? Ye’know….bit more femme….?” I used to presume that “trans women” (your old skool transsexuals) were using female spaces, and I didn’t even think or about that or worry about that, I expected it even. How could they possibly go into the men’s!?!? As a lesbian, I was used to toilets in “queer” bars and clubs being an absolute free for all, l had never felt threatened by any gay men. I remember seeing Boy George on many occasions sitting in the ladies at DTPM, chatting away to everyone. Everyone was off their faces, having fun, being young and gender identity politics was in a place where it should have stayed. Then up until about 12 years ago…that’s when things I started to see a very different side to trans activism and it shook me to my core. I felt like an absolute idiot when things started to sink in. My boss/friend had raised her concerns with me, and I thought it was just online rubbish…but then She was suddenly getting a loads of death/rape threats on Twitter and called a bigot/nazi/transphobe ans that she should die in a fire. I was shocked, angry and disgusted and utterly bewildered! l knew her as being way more liberal, left leaning and open than me! If she was a bigot, then I hated to think what I must be!! She had written a blog, a very reasonable one, on biology…she works in media, has a famous husband and engages in feminist politics, so she became a target. 🎯 She sent me some Magdalen Berns videos and added me to a secret facebook with her in it and Kelly Jay Keen. I felt very out of my depth as there were lots of very serious. Intelligent women having these discussions that we just couldn’t have out loud. kJK stood out as she was openly challenging and arguing with people and I thought “she’s funny” (which she is). Anyhooooo…roll on to today… I’ve had the abuse, the name calling, the ostracism etc etc simply for insisting l am same SEX attracted. Blah blah blah…we all know how it goes now. So now, after much resistance, l am now leaning much more to the KJK argument re not playing the pronoun game. I resisted it for a long while, l felt bad for the trans people l like (and who actually pass, so it’s just easy) but due to the nature of this movement and the very sticky path it has lead us down (ie men in women’s prisons and the brainwashing of children) I’m just not doing it any more. I’m angry…I’m up in arms and I feel like some men are taking the living PISS out of us. I won’t purposely be hurtful or disrespectful but l will use more neutral, honest, language. I won’t call males TW any more. I won’t call females TM. I do use the terms “trans identified male/female”. My once apon a time unquestioning ally ship has set sail. I am very much team Genspect, and love the work you guys do, and was very excited to see Kathleen Stock on this one! I am also team Kelly Jay Keen. I appreciate her passion, her anger, her humour and her unrelenting determination to “hold the line” and give women a voice. I think she really has done that for so many women from all different backgrounds grounds. I was very apathetic before…but now I’m in Joan of Arc warrior mode!! The differing views and opinions that are had in this movement are to be expected…as it’s not a CULT!!! I’ve appreciated the many differing views ( not the all out slagging matches). As I try to form my own views and thoughts on things, and not be pushed or swayed…(l know l will be, as I’m human)… I do know l’ve not seen good things happen when it comes to this gender identity bollocks and it’s politics. I also know way more about autogynephilia and transvestic fetishism now, to ever ever ask a man again “er…have you got another name??”.

@Gingerblaze

3 ай бұрын

David sounds like he was an honest and respectful transvestite.

@gabychats

3 ай бұрын

I agree. KJK is who I turn to now more than anyone else and in the beginning when I was first questioning my own views, I found her too harsh. I was wrong and she is right. But it does take a while of soul searching for many of us to finnaly get it. Really I am impressed that KJK got there so quickly. I am also a big fan of Kathleen Stock and Helen Joyce. Cheers and goodluck to us all as we hold the line!

@dyoung1492

3 ай бұрын

@@gabychats it is so nice to hear from others who feel the same ...

@lynnm6413

3 ай бұрын

@@gabychats I also think that when the other side is demented and violent to such a high degree, countering it with female nuance just isn‘t enough. We need voices like Helen Joyce and Kathleen Stock to reach the women who just peaked, to get the information across in a very fact based, stoic way… However, for every woman who has had personal experiences that made her take up the fight irl, Kellie Jay Keen is an amazing woman to follow, because she doesn‘t get bogged down in the minutiae of making it work for ‚everyone‘. Isomer need to stand up and fight for our position first, without handing in the fight after the 2nd round!!

@ellehann

3 ай бұрын

It's interesting and useful to listen to all the perspectives on the gender critical side and to reflect and also shift position. There are so many robust thinkers to admire. Helen Joyce and Kellie-Jay Keen are my favourite. Too much compromise is what has got us into this mess, so I appreciate KJK's stance more and more.

Kathleen Stock talking about her lack of self awareness when younger is honestly making me feel so much better about my whole life trajectory.

Really grateful to hear Kathleen's evolution as she understands more deeply how going along with a fiction and treating it as if it is a reality, so deeply endangers everyone, including the individual themself, but none more so than children.

25:08 The difference with not going up to people and saying "You're fat" or transgressing that taboo about being drunk by saying "You're drunk" - for me that's a completely different category to the necessity now for me to just call a man a man / use the correct language to reflect reality and not play along with a lie. It feels to me like this kind of politeness / nicety / kindness social taboo has been hijacked. It has taken something that society feels delicate about - not offending or hurting someone needlessly, taking their feelings into consideration - and it has warped it beyond all recognition. This social rule of "Don't be cruel, don't hurt a trans-identified person's feelings" has been weaponised, it is like a shield behind which a lot of horrors are being done. The Gavin de Becker bool 'The Gift of Fear' goes into this in detail. A guy who really means to harm you will use social norms about niceness to get you to do what he wants, get you to trust him, and then once you are alone with him, the predator is revealed. In this "gender" situation that can be literally true (e.g. the case of Andrew Miller/"Amy George") but also true figuratively if you look at the medical abuses taking place against kids & other vulnerable people, it is the same dynamic. A cutesy rainbows "be kind" facade, and set of social norms and taboos around speaking the truth supposedly because being truthful damages this vulnerable person, but it is all in fact concealing horrors (the blockers given to the kids, the surgeries, the psychological damage etc.) I think when people feel duped or taken advantage of & it was done by this very dynamic of weaponising kindness, we reach a point where so many boundaries are being crossed for women & kids, and frankly it gets to a place where I instantly feel my back go up when that social norm / taboo gets invoked now, because it is like a red flag, it's like the person using that avenue to implore me is wearing a mask and I've seen too much of what is happening behind that mask. And it is done through language. This stuff no longer resembles "Don't go up to someone and call them fat". The only bad thing that happens when you transgress that taboo is you hurt the person's feelings. Something really insidious and sick is happening here, where horrors are being done behind a mask, and the mask is a victim mask. It's really got the feeling of NPD on a grand scale. The imploring to put the TIP's emotions and feelings first above everything else is a repellant demand now. The cloaking of everything behind the "I'm the biggest victim" facade has meant the trust is gone. The social pressure to do that now sort of provokes the opposite reaction in me, where I started out being very amenable to it and sympathetic, now any time that appeal gets made it feels repellant, it's like a survival instinct starts blaring at me at this point. I feel a visceral reaction. The "empathy fatigue" or whatever you'd call it, is something I am really, really feeling now. You reach a point where now any time someone is dressing themselves up as "The Victim" and making all sorts of demands of empathy and kindness and special treatment, demands we all play along with a reality that does not exist, that is actually the complete opposite TO reality - that stuff now just sets off a warning alarm in me. And I also feel contempt at this point, because I can see how again and again my impulse to be kind was taken advantage of. You feel contempt for this person who is STILL trying to play that game, after everything that has happened, they are still here and still trying to abuse that social contract, trying to undermine and subvert all boundaries, starting with language, the way we are able to describe reality. It's so sinister. ETA: and I realise also that when I first discovered this podcast I was way more indoctrinated and in the cult. I think I left an early comment a couple years back being like "You need to get more trans people on so it's not you telling them their reality" and this kind of thing... It's truly surreal how much has changed in my thinking since then. But I accept you guys were probably moderate back then, and moderate now, whereas I feel I just want to reject the whole project of "gender identity theory" now, I want no part in it, I feel really repulsed that I ever let my guard down with it.

@shandrews

3 ай бұрын

Ditto all of this 👆🏽

@transitionsnc

3 ай бұрын

Thank you for your most introspective comment. Like yourself, I have done a deep dive into transgenderism. I am a bisexual woman and I used to think the trans identity fit with the gay/lesbian/bi identity, but it really doesn't and that's for a variety of reasons. When I actually looked at what is behind this agenda, I became concerned. I have a long time friend who's a trans woman. And I've also known other trans people. I'm not convinced that living as the opposite gender is the ultimate solution. With that said, it does seem to work for a small amount of people. And how long do you go along with someone else's delusion when you can see they are living in a false reality? I don't have the answer to that question. I live in a major urban area and trans women here (along with the "trans" lifestyle in general) are definitely a hip thing. Now when I see trans women on the street, I'm kinda over it. In my head, I'm just like, "You're not fooling anyone" and I no longer wish to subscribe to this false reality. But of course I don't know these people so I just let it go. I don't know what the answer is because that niceness/kindness thing is real. Like if I started calling my trans woman friend "he", this person would be very hurt and offended. But am I being a true friend by subscribing to this false sense of reality? It's so complicated because this friend has been by my side through thick and thin. This person is a true friend. There are so many grey areas with this. I wish there was one concrete answer, but there's not. I definitely don't think language should be legislated but what the right thing to do on an individual level varies so much.

@meretriciousinsolent

3 ай бұрын

You know, I was where you are three hours ago - I genuinely can't land anywhere on this one. I think the example of a distressed kid is an important one, but I think in that situation I'd be listening and not talking. I wouldn't be affirming. I'd maybe be asking some very general open questions. I wouldn't be saying 'you're not this thing you want to be' because in a moment of distress, you need to help, not add to the harm. The thing I always come back to is how huge it all is... Sometimes people are genuinely vulnerable, sometimes obviously so. Sometimes we can be a stable presence then. Other times a vulnerable person can also be a risk towards us and in that setting I'd be doing what I needed to, to keep safe. No two interactions are exactly the same and I think demanding consistency of people one hundred percent of the time could actually put them at risk. That's not our fault or their fault, but it is true.

@meretriciousinsolent

3 ай бұрын

Equally though... You feed the lie, it grows stronger. I think maybe my stance is to challenge it where it's helpful and safe to. That might be a very gradual process. Or it might be something that someone is unable to do safely, and others who aren't at risk are called upon to step in. The real question is, who do you rely on in a situation like that? And so the loop goes on.

@robertmarshall2502

3 ай бұрын

​@@meretriciousinsolent ​The other issue is that, when the push is to ban "conversion therapy" all the sensible probing you're talking about disappears. Parents are an in an uphill battle against gender clinics, schools pushing binders and secret clubs, teen cliques, social media etc. There's a very real push to separate children and tell them their family is transphobic and that they should embrace their "glitter family". I don't envy any parent trying to fight against the wave of one-size-fits-all affirmation. This is why we need laws against this to 25 for me. Clearly listening and talking over an extended period would make a huge difference.

OH MY GOODNESS!!! YOU’VE GOT KATHLEEN!!! Staying up late here in Australia to watch right now! 😊❤ Thank you, Sasha and Stella and Kathleen!

@ForeverHeHim

3 ай бұрын

My thoughts exactly! Love Kathleen Stock!

25:53 I scratch my head when I try and think of instances when GC people have ever behaved in the mode that the TRAs have in terms of shutting down speech or showing up at people's homes to threaten them, used the police to menace opponents, protested their talks and drowned them out beating drums and blowing horns, or dumped liquids on people at a TRA event, or anything of the like. People can say whatever they like, but at this point with the safeguarding issues around the TIMs in particular, surely it's easy to see why it is so important to point out who is a man, and who has AGP, and why exactly they are doing what they are doing. The obfuscating language IS dangerous. That doesn't mean speech should be silenced. People can play along with whatever fiction they like, but currently we've got the BBC and Guardian playing along, pushing a fiction where the cat killer guy is a woman, and his murdering of another man is being recorded as if a woman committed that crime... Should the law mandate that the BBC can't falsely report that a woman did a crime when it was in fact a man? Should the law mandate that male crimes not be recorded as female & news media should not use "woman, she, her" when reporting on these men? I think so. But in light of our present circumstances, some still want to play along with the fiction that a man can be a woman "sometimes"? I think at this stage, surely expect to get "side-eyed" for playing that game still. ^ With the above being said, I do still see plenty of instances where I'd feel strange using correct-sex pronouns for certain people. Even so, I realised I need to be consistent, because if I"m going to call Buck Angel "he/him", I will need to call Katie Dolatowski or Isla Bryson "she/her". There's going to be cognitive dissonance at some point, I'd rather choose to experience it while I choose to use language that accurately describes reality. Not just for me - for everyone's safety and for the psychological truth you should surely reflect to the person themselves! Who is so spun out in gender dysphoria and reality clashing with their inner life, surely the least helpful thing to do is mirror their distortion back at them. Edit: I appreciated Stock being able to see from this perspective during this conversation. Unfortunately I've felt lately that Stella does not put herself in the opposing perspective very easily.

@Primalxbeast

3 ай бұрын

I don't see any contradiction in using incorrect pronouns for polite people who have transitioned enough to pass as the other sex and respect boundaries, and don't claim to literally be the opposite sex. It would be odd to be in public with Buck and call him she to someone who didn't know he was trans. The problem is that most people claiming to be trans these days don't respect boundaries or reality, and they don't deserve that courtesy because it leads to them thinking they have the right to invade women's spaces.

@L_Martin

3 ай бұрын

@@Primalxbeast I've just come from watching Buck's video on the TIM who worked at a nursery and SA'd a baby. In the video, Buck is calling the guy "he/him" because Buck says this man doesn't deserve respect... I'm not going to play those games. It is totally hypocritical to flatter the TIMs I personally like, like Corinna Cohn for e.g., by using she/her, and then turn around and use "he/him" on TIMs I don't like. I'm not using pronouns as an insult. I'm using them to talk about reality. I'm also not using them to flatter and signal "I like you so I'm playing along and pretending I see you the way you want me to see you" "using incorrect pronouns for polite people who have transitioned enough to pass as the other sex and respect boundaries" -- Ok what about a TIM who is: -Polite -Respect boundaries But who doesn't pass in spite of making every effort / undergoing the surgeries etc.? I'm going to be "cruel" and use he/him while using she/her for a guy who ticks these boxes but passes? Again, it's playing games. It is rewarding some men with the pronouns, punishing others because they don't happen to tick the boxes. That whole calculation is rife with internal contradiction and hypocrisy imo. I think the other thing you tend to find with TIMs who -Pass -Are polite -Respect boundaries is they will NOT be happy if you don't she/her them. They DO want access to women-only spaces. They expect society to play along, they feel they have put in the hard work and we need to reward them by pretending they are a woman. No.

@Primalxbeast

3 ай бұрын

@@L_Martin Fair enough. Many GC people started out respecting pronouns when it was just a few transsexuals who weren't trying to force their views on people until they saw how out of control things were getting with trans ideology. I understand why some people have decided to never use incorrect pronouns, but I don't like to see the infighting among GC people when someone occasionally uses them. We have enough to deal with from the TRAs without us fighting with each other. I don't think AGPs should ever be called she, and the neopronouns are a load of bollocks.

@L_Martin

3 ай бұрын

@@Primalxbeast I don't like the in-fighting either. Unfortunately though, this entire post modern project of queer theory is about language. So inevitably we end up here if some GC people want to go on using language in academic "queer theory" terms, agreeing to the re-definitions, agreeing to share a fictional reality with people who think words create reality. I always thought the big rift in the GC scene would be between those who would make allowances for HSTS, and those who refused to allow even the "vulnerable non-threatening" HSTS in out of the rain. Instead, what we're split over is AGPs, and that's where I am really really puzzled, because the moment I learned AGP was a thing, it essentially upended my entire view of what "trans" meant.

@Primalxbeast

3 ай бұрын

@L_Martin I think that only a tiny percentage of the people calling themselves trans these days are actually trans. Trangender can mean anything these days, from just being a bit gender nonconforming, or just wanting to not be a boring "cis" person, to claiming to be a woman to get into women's spaces. The trans umbrella has become so large that pretty much anyone can be included, and then they want privileges because because they claim to be so oppressed. There are very few people who have real gender dysphoria that would still be present if society wasn't encouraging people to think they have it. Medicalization should be a last resort, and only for adults who have had years of counseling. I've never fit in with other females, and I'm happy I grew up in the 70s and 80s, because if I was a child today people would be telling me I should transition because I act like a boy. Being a woman who isn't feminine is much better than being a fake man, stuck taking damaging pharmaceuticals.

The trouble with the polite kind supporting approach ( the many legal fictions) has led us to where we are today

@lovelover4408

3 ай бұрын

“Thin end of the wedge” as KJK says

Love this conversation. It's so destructive what's going on. I'm in such disbelief about all the institutions and professional groups/ associations that are going fully on board with this...... I'm just dumbfounded.

I have a daughter thank God I am aware of the gender cult. There are so many times i wished I was a boy as a child. I was jealous, and felt left out and weak. Cant even imagine my Mom saying ok and taking me to the gender clinic.

People have to make instant judgments to navigate life, heavily tattooed bikers, hoodied youths on dark streets , men in dresses, child abusers, if there are good uns among them fair enough but that kind of detailed investigation is not practical on every daily encounter

@Gingerblaze

3 ай бұрын

Thank you for stating this. Many of those speaking on this DO NOT recognize how extremely important this instinct is to personal saftey. Especially for children.

40:05 Buck Angel who almost died from vaginal atrophy, and who considers it a sign of disrespect for people to use female language for her _even though she _*_knows_*_ and admits she’s female?_ Even Buck knows nobody should want to live Buck’s life.

@Gingerblaze

3 ай бұрын

Many who use she/her for Buck, do so as a sign of respect. Interesting how another would view that as the opposite.

@lovelover4408

3 ай бұрын

There’s nothing disrespectful about recognizing someone’s sex ❤

@hoppetosse8

Ай бұрын

@@Gingerblaze I don't fully understand. Buck is calling themselves grandpa and Buck. So now I'm confused. I always thought he? wanted to be called Buck and he?

Along with the tragedy of the many children that are being led to believe in gender ideology by their ideologically motivated, or naive parents, there will be a smaller, but significant cohort of children that are listening to their parents repeating "Trans Women are Women" around the dining table and being profoundly confused as to how their parents, and society in general, could be so utterly deluded. It is the equivalent of being told by a parent that when they hold up 2 fingers they are actually holding up 3, and to believe anything different means that you, the child, is the one that is wrong. It's an awful, existentially confusing model of adulthood that will lead to insecurity and deep confusion in the child about the nature of authority and even what it means to "know" what the truth is. My 12 year old son is a questioning sort and is perpetually baffled by it all, "How can so many people think this is true!? What is going on?".

@Gingerblaze

3 ай бұрын

Yes, it causes children to (rightly) question the intelligence, and competence of those charged with their care and who they are supposed to trust. It makes them question their own instincts which are there for their own saftey. This puts them at considerable risk developmentally, physically and psychologically. A real Emperors new clothes.

Finally Dr Stock!!!! :):)

I remember once just saying to someone that "you can't have inclusivity without exclusivity" which i thought was quite obvious. LIke you can't have rich without poor or dark without light. You could see by the look on their face this had never occurred to them.

Regarding what Kath says about being "immersed in a fiction", and also about having a "male gender identity" ... this might seem a bit random, but has she (or Sasha or Stella) ever read Terry Pratchett's Discworld novel 'Monstrous Regiment'? It's about a girl who joins the army, disguised as a boy, to search for her brother. In the course of the story, she meets more and more girls and women who are also disguised as boys and men (to the point that it becomes a running gag). It gets especially complicated and funny when these "lads" have to disguise themselves as *girls* to get past some guards ... By the end of the story, most of the women go back to their regular lives. A few decide they like the army life, so they re-enlist openly as women as soon as the rules change to allow it. But one character turns out to be happier "living as a man" and stays permanently in disguise. I've had some strange internet debates with people who seem convinced that that particular character is a transman, and that some of the other characters must be trans too--that they're "really men on the inside". Yet the characters themselves make it clear that they know they're women playing a role: immersed in a fiction, as Kath would put it. They can come out of it at any time.

The difference between the language policing around this particular group and any other is that they don’t leave any room for accidents or well meaning people who don’t see the person in front of them as anything but what their biological presents. I kind of wanted to never leave my house again around 2015 when I accidentally called a classmate “she” and was not only corrected, but the implication being that I was some sort of monster who did it on purpose to ruin their mental health. I really just wanted to quit that class and society in general. I’ve never experienced this particular kind of venomous behavior. We’ve all accidentally insulted someone now and then. It’s impossible to be a human without making mistakes. But to have it chalked up as something inherently evil within the person making the mistake is where it can be a threat to our very existence.

@Gingerblaze

3 ай бұрын

And if you were using the persons natal sex as your guide, is it really a "mistake"?

I love Kathleen Stock!! 3 of my favorite women together. Thank you!

Genspec disappoints. No such thing as true trans

Yeay! I have been waiting for this one, Kathleen is so great :)

I love listening to Kathleen Stock ❤

Thank you! This was so great. Genuine and vulnerable content. So wonderful.

It is incredibly difficult to trust any therapist who does not value or is not knowledgable enough to speak in language which is based in objective material reality. Especially regarding this issue. For a therapist to not hold this as a principle value, does not facilitate trust in their ability to actually help.

24:40 you all talked about using language to participate in someones fiction, in an imaginary engaged state, but tell the truth about sex where it matters, and that if language that is mandated, legislated, compelled that is wrong. Dr Stockk explained the experience for academics & philosophers, meanwhile Sasha & Stella insisted on equivocating in the indulging of others fictions - and this is totally unhelpful to those who endure the pressure of other peoples fictions in the work place or they will lose their job, the woman police officer force to intimately search a trans identified man, the school children forced to call the AGP teacher Miss or they will be on detention - so yes you are handmaidens & capitulators in being unwilling or incapable to empathise with the nonsense the rest of us have to stomach out here. Angry! Tell me about it! I am not for compelled speech, I am for the truth in language where it matters to define and explain reality. This is not a free speech issue. Yes a TiM can tell me he is a she, but that is a lie and I will refuse to comply with him and say so. 24:40 Dr Stockk pronouns: I do not have a theory about TiMs! I do not care how, why they want to be 'women' - they are not, and they can get out of our toilets, changing rooms, jobs, sports, refuges.

@Gingerblaze

3 ай бұрын

Its very unfortunate how utterly out of touch with how this impacts the most vulnerable women and children are when objective reality and linguistic honesty is betrayed under the guise of "politness",

@artemisrising1693

3 ай бұрын

Utterly disconnected with what women & girls are enduring day to day. Clueless. Repeating & complying with someones delusional ideas has consequences for women & girls - don't they get it???

Joost Meerloo wrote Rape of the Mind in which he clearly explains the relation between Pavlov reaction and trauma. What happens in society is that the trauma gets a symbol or a word (jew star, the n-word etc.). Then not the actual criminal violence (the camp or being hanged by the kkk) becomes the object of anxiety, but the word/symbol that reminds to it. And then a cultural war starts about those icons and those need to be banner to get a better world. But that appears to be untrue. They forget about the innitial crime that was the real problem. This has happened on a large scale in genderism. Every word related to sex is banned: homosexual and lesbian became ‘lgb’, transsexual and transvestite became transgender, the term ‘gender reveal party’ while it is about revealing the sex of the baby, androgynous became ‘non binary’ (as if Brian Molko didn’t have gd. He was a key example of what nowadays gd non binary is) and countless other new language that confuses and blurs accuracy and it becomes impossible for everybody to actually articulate what they mean exactly with the set of new words. There is no trauma like the jew star in genderism, but def an unseen high level of Newspeak and Doublespeak as explained in 1984. Shifting the language poles constantly. ‘Gender incongurence’ is a more recent trick to introduce Foglanguage.

@karinelaxa959

3 ай бұрын

What do you mean by gd?

@yurilandman1

3 ай бұрын

Gender dysphoria

@Gingerblaze

3 ай бұрын

@@karinelaxa959 gender dysphoria

@yurilandman1

3 ай бұрын

@@Gingerblaze indeed that

Gay man here. It's nauseating the constant victimhood narrative within the alphabet community. It's a cliche template that's regurgitated that has no meaning. If you ask to clarify or give examples, one is attacked as a heretic.

Always enjoy the clarity Kathleen Stock brings. Thank you!

@widerlenspod

3 ай бұрын

Thank you so much. We loved having this conversation with Kathleen, as well!

I am a gay man. I adore Doc Stock. Oh god it all gets so mashed up 😂😂

Another superb interview. Insightful and lucid. Thank you!

Maybe I discovered why I have never believed any of this trans stuff-it's because I never believed in Santa! (Sadly, I had older siblings who told me straight away.) Great insight from Kathleen, especially admire her ability to sympathetically see through other people's eyes, for example, why some women cannot abide men who act out their agp-ness. Her personal story was also SO interesting.

I have been watching your videos 24/7. It could have happened to me! It's so scary! It is happening all around me and to my friends' kids, but I don't know how to talk to them about it.

Great conversation.

Great convo, as always! Such a great guest too, so measured and intelligent and great to see Kathleen relaxed and laughing as in many of the interviews I’ve seen her in she’s being vilified, she’s so brave to speak out. Her description of children imagining being all kinds of different things reminded me of my first encounter with trans at the school I used to work in. A male child in reception (4) wanted to be a girl and his mother was affirming. I remember my colleague saying ‘well what if he comes in saying he’s Spider-Man…..??’ It’s just what small kids do isn’t it, we need to let them imagine and then be there when realisation kicks in xH

New hypothesis: gender incongruence is an internal imbalance of miasma, grey bile, and phlogiston.

Love Dr. Stock, and since I'm a word nerd, love this topic.

Transgender is an umbrella term for subjective identities: I think, therefore I think I am X. It's not objective unless another agrees.

_phlogiston_ may not be a scientifically useful concept, but it’s a hell of a good word for scrabble.

@saracorbin1152

3 ай бұрын

9's are pretty hard to come by in Scrabble, but that would be a spectacular one.

Fascinating discussion about language and how collaborating in people's fictions leads to severe consequences, both on a personal and a societal level. A must listen for those who still think that they'll use incorrect pronouns as a mark of respect as it isn't harming them. It is harming an awful lot of people and society at large, this demand that we all participate in a fiction. Kathleen Stock has become more relaxed, more confident and less concerned about causing offence than when she first was catapulted into the podcast circuit about this topic. That's great to see.

Does Queer Theory (applied post-modernism) not aim to eliminate 'the binary', and erase boundaries, so that there are no categories separating good and bad, right and wrong, female and male, adult and child?

@markrussell3428

3 ай бұрын

@marieparker3822 Stock actually described post modernism rather well, it is a way of thinking responsible for a tsunami of BS that has disregard for finding truth and prefers to create (manufacture) truth. It is abysmal and any academic discipline that ends in "studies" has ZERO academic credability given its foundation is jello to the point it constantly must reinvent itself in order to stay ahead of any accountability for the real damage it does.

@charlesbrown1365

3 ай бұрын

Pretty much

@charlesbrown1365

3 ай бұрын

Abolish male supremacy not binary gender .

@markrussell3428

3 ай бұрын

@@charlesbrown1365 Male supremacy is a femenist delliousion. Women that measure themself relative to men will never be truly happy given they fail to appreciate their own greatness and significance. Men live short lives and are more prone to suicide? That's not something to aspire to.

When I think of inclusive language, I am always tempted to recall a story from 1972 and the Bell Telephone Company. Someone in the Bell System, usually described to be a feminist, complained about the term "manhole" as in "manhole cover." Well, some wit put together a response in a Memo that was widely distributed. It read as follows: "The term "manhole" will henceforward be depreciated in favor of the more accurate term: Common Underground Network Terminus." Of course, you know that no term of any kind in the Bell System escaped being universally referred to by its acronym.

I was interested in Kathleen’s philosophical research areas before the ‘Sussex experience’ blew up. I’ve since bought and read Material Girls. I’m a Sussex philosophy alumnus. Before I had spent my life in the infantry (British Army) and had been involved in various operational theatres. I ended up as a mature student due to increasing difficulties adapting to civvy st after leaving the army. At Sussex I became interested in AI and cognitive sciences and from there a research interest in autism/Asperger’s. (I won’t spell out the link. Suffice to say it was to do with error patterns in AI generated speech programs.) My original research focused on people diagnosed with either high-functioning autism or Asperger’s syndrome. (IMO not the same at all, though Asperger’s has effectively been legislated out of the nosological window by APA/DSM-V in yet another round of logico-linguistic blunders). Dry academic theory eventually runs out and you need some some sort of social or ‘hands on’ experience of working with such people. In the early 2000s I ended up working closely with a man diagnosed with Asperger’s. I’ll call him Steve. He trusted me and, after a few months, confided to me a desire to change gender. He had, I learned, already discussed this with his parents. His mum I think was ok about it. His father was difficult to read. One day I turned at the family home where Steve (let’s say he was 23) lived with his parents for a scheduled meeting, the pre-arranged goal of which was to get Steve more relaxed interacting with staff in shops. ‘Steve’ was now Mary and wearing women’s clothing, make up and jewelry. He greeted me at the door like this. I was aghast. Not on moral grounds. But the decisions & actions had passed far too quickly in my opinion. Eg. I’d like to have been forewarned so that I could thought this through and planned, eg, contact the police, shop owners, &c. Though I add even taking such precautions would have been seen as at the very least at the limit of moral permissibility by Mary I was shocked and half-inclined to say we can’t go out like this. But what were my reasons?? I was pretty sure that it was me with the problem. We went out. People stared, gawped, sniggered. Said unkind things. (I’ll come back to this.) But the crunch time came when Mary (it’s odd how suggestive quotation marks or their absence can be) wanted to go to the toilet in a department store, insisting on a ‘right’ to use the women’s facilities. I was not very supportive. I proposed using the gents and I’d accompany him. I didn’t think there was any right allowing a male to use a female’s facilities given that there was a male toilet . A fiasco was brewing between me, Mary, and the store staff. Remarkably, they relented because of the Asperger’s ( not on grounds of Gender Identity), and we waited for a propitious moment. Mary went into the empty women’s toilet. Had I been forewarned I could have reflected on what to do in just such a situation. (You’d be surprised how being an NCO in the army helps with identifying and then planning for pitfalls). Going back to the parenthetical rider, this eventually became mentally too much for me. I asked for a 6 month sabbatical partly on mental health issues (I had two of very challenging adult Asperger’s cases), partly because I did have research to write up. But also I was an emotional wreck. I’d presented original material at Autism Oxford 1999, at Christchurch, Oxford. Then International Autism Conference, Glasgow, 2000. Then I collaborated with the Neurology Dept, Medical Center, Ohio State University, Cleveland on cognitive modelling of high-functioning autism. So I was busy enough. All the contact I had with people affected by autism was mediated via Hampshire Autistic Society. But the intensity of that work effectively broke me. I was kindly granted a sabbatical. I went to rural France (a sort of Wittgenstein Norway thing !!). I extended the sabbatical for another 6 months. Then resigned. But we were working with the first generation of diagnosed autistic adults back then. I hope you find this interesting. Thanks for posting your talk. I enjoyed its relaxed but analytical style.

3:18 will you maybe also talk with Abigail Shrier about her new book "bad therapy" whilst you do indeed have clients in really urgent need for therapy?

@widerlenspod

3 ай бұрын

We are working on it!

Great title

I have a mad crush on Kathleen. She is so intelligent!!

40:15 Oh she's says we don't know how the DICE are gonna roll... I misheard Stock but it still fits

The idea that by changing beliefs you can change real relationships reminds us of the story of the man who drowned because he believed in gravity.

It's hard to keep thinking critically when there's a big shiny orthodoxy right in front of you & everybody in the comments is telling you the world will end unless you eat it

I like Kathleen Stock well enough. I recently read an article entitled "Trans and Nonbinary Identity in the Age of Profilicity" and it reminded me of her very reasonable positions.

Sasha asked such a great question that allowed Kathleen to open up about her sexuality and identity. Fascinating to hear her identify with masking and feeling more as a man, ironic given her strong feminist disposition. Despite identifying with her "sister" Judith Butler in this regard, it's profoundly a false construct. The exteriour wrapper that is her identity reflecting an expression of maleness covers what is actually happening "under the hood". Men tend to be more hyper-sexual and physical, including a greater propensity to violence. Dress, cut your hair however you like, the man is wired different this is the reason for men in female spaces.

The most ridiculous thing about the term “chest feeders” is that men also have breasts. So if a person is really so triggered by the idea of feeding a baby from their breasts, but not by the actual act of doing so, that they can’t even see the word “breast” written on a website, there’s something else going on. It seems very much like they’re just trying to exert their power and control over women. Pregnancy and breast feeding being such realms that only women can biologically inhabit. It’s as if they picked on terminology surrounding birth just to be sure that they had a hold on our culture.

@Gingerblaze

3 ай бұрын

Its the dismembering of the role of mother from the act of human reproduction and nurturance. Breast feeding is often called the fourth seas9n of pregnancy.

I would love if you had KJK on!

@joce11

3 ай бұрын

Yes, me too but im doubtful that will happen.

@lynnm6413

3 ай бұрын

As long as Stella hasn‘t understood how AGP‘s think, that‘s not gonna happen

I can’t find a podcast called bungercast

It’s common for black women not to wear make up day today. Even as teens. There’s not the same pressure as for white women. Some black women do wear make up everyday but it’s seen as a choice. When dressed up for special occasions most black women will wear make up. When I think of the black women I work with I’d say more than half don’t wear make up at work.

@suedavis1781

3 ай бұрын

As a white woman I wear some makeup to give 'color' to my otherwise pale skin. I don't use the foundation but lippy is essential!😅

@janerogers190

3 ай бұрын

Black women usually have great skin too. My white skin is pretty wrinkly...a black friend tells me that 'black don't crack!'

GLAAD just “declared the word homosexual to be outdated, derogatory and offensive.” Wait until you see this one.

Please interview Dr Michelle Elliot (Kidscape)

I'm a heterosexual woman but I was never interested in wearing makeup and stereotypically feminine clothing. Not that I dress in a masculine way, and I wear dresses and skirts because they can be much more comfortable than trousers. But I see my refusal to take part in the "beauty race" as a form of emancipation, I refuse to spend my energy on trying to be "pleasing to the eye".

Product placement at 33:41?

Oh no it's that dreaded word - fragility 😢

I suspect Kathleen has never been in a relationship with a man in which she has had to stay silent and tiptoe metaphorically around subjects he has deemed taboo, for fear of his aggression. Our refusal to call men "she" often stems from the knowledge that to do so is appeasement, and that it is the thin end of the wedge. Call one man "she" and we lose the whole of female-specific language.

@YEALANDS2024

3 ай бұрын

Kathleen is a lesbian.

I think a person can suppress or repress their sexual orientation, who they are, at least for a period of time but it will probably cause difficulty until the person can accept themselves as they are. But I don't think we have a 'gender identity' though I do think we have certain traits, for example, Kathleen Stock has some traits that we would traditionally associate w/ being male though she is clear that she is not male.

Excellent ❤ thanks However, watching a lot of these videos I have questions. ?Why is the talk always about Transwomen(males)? ?Why are we not more concerned with Transmen/boys(girls/females) who are transitioning at a far larger rate than males? It appears that the healthcare system is more willing to medicalize females and chop off bits than with males. Is not time to save the girls from this insidious and harmful system? Stop spending time on what Transwomen(males) want and point out the mutilation of girls?

@widerlenspod

3 ай бұрын

We talk about the girls a lot. Definitely be sure to tune in next week to our episode with Laura Becker!

@acerrubrum5749

3 ай бұрын

​@widerlenspod Thank you for the reply, no criticism to you and your channel. It seems pervasive across all channels. Squeaky wheels and all that, the Transwomen(males) are at volume 10. Meanwhile, the girls transitioning are the quiet majority. It is disheartening that "gender" stereotypes have made such a resurgence. I personally have never had to check my genitals before baking a cake or using power tools 😂 I've come to the decision, that since I'm told that gender is a, social construct, then I don't need to use it. I'm also not using man or woman since the language has been twisted, female and male work just fine and are harder to manipulate. Keep up the great work you do. Thank you.

Lol the US status quo is not conservative. Even in right wing states conservatives are the minority. Religious conservatives are even a smaller percentage, most will never meet one so they remain a boogeyman of the woke. Percentage of people who identify as "conservative", is most likely under 10%. Today many are crazy liberals. If you think the US is "conservative" it sounds like you have experienced it with someone conservative or you were told it was by a woke mind. The woke also make the US sound like a third world country that forces females to give birth while guns go off in the background. The US is probably far more woke than the UK- especially with the size, there is plenty of room for more and more. Why the US votes red is for economic reasons and dislike of taxes - these people are still social liberals. Most right wing voters are socially liberal or you would see a totally different society.

51:45 This stuff is definitely hard to understand. She stopped wearing skirts and heels and make-up and therefore has a "male-associated" gender identity and thinks of herself as a man? I'm really surprised to hear her saying things like this as it surely validates much of the "gender identity theory" nonsense. And she attributes this "feeling like a man" to the fact she is attracted to women? It really contrasts with what so many lesbians & gay men have been saying about being same-sex attracted NOT making them not a member of their sex. But I guess in queer theory terms, "gender identity" is not sex? Is she saying that the absence of performing stereotypical femininity for men, connects with feeling like a man? Or she thinks like a man? Feels like a man? To me, it sounds like gender theory rubbish, and a woman wanting to dissociate from being a woman. Why can't she feel and think and have the personality she does and still be a woman? Have women even as impressive as Doc Stock been conditioned to think that "women don't/can't be intelligent or think or feel this way I am, and therefore I don't feel like a woman" ? Bizarre. And disheartening. I appreciate she says it's hard to explain. But I was taken aback to hear her say these things. Stock is usually incredibly careful with her statements and takes great care in how she couches her statements & frames her thoughts. This felt out of left field just like "oh but btw I feel like I am a man" ?

@j.e.6372

3 ай бұрын

It’s the same logic shared by 99.9% of the non-women and tims/tifs. I’m younger than Stock and spent the majority of the nearly 30 years I’ve been out of the closet as a lesbian among the vanguard of the exact group that spread this particular brand of not-like-the-other-girls misogyny. The Queers. The group who think lesbians are not women and read Stone Butch Blues like it’s a religious text. Yeah, a lot of lesbians feel like we are “womaning” wrong, especially those of us who knew very young, but that does not make us “male associated” women. That particular logic is what has decimated the lesbian community, going completely unchallenged by people who apparently care about what harm “gender identity” has caused. I have personally lost many friends (as in, they have died) on the Altar of Divine Spiritual Masculinity horseshit that is peddled to dykes. Women need to stop fracturing their selfhood into gender stereotypes or this will never stop. Nothing more “feminine” than perceiving yourself as a man when you’re a lesbian.

@eco7221

3 ай бұрын

As a lesbian I find particularly this comment completely frustrating and disheartening.

@L_Martin

3 ай бұрын

@@eco7221 Why?

@eco7221

3 ай бұрын

@@L_Martin For the same reasons as you specify. I should have clarified, I find Kathleen's comment disheartening. It's regressive! Wanting to partner up with women rather than men, doesn't align me with men, preferring checked shirts over flowery ones doesn't align me with men. It just makes me more recognisable for my tribe which, let's face it, is one of the reasons why we style ourselves the way we do. I was very disappointed with Kathleen's comment because it sounds like trans regressiveness. Heterosexual women tell me they like my style and think it's cool but don't dare having a buzzcut themselves. So much of our thinking and behaviour is group think and behaviour. I had hoped Kathleen Stock was a more emancipated thinker than she presents herself to be in this interview. I was disappointed because I thought that she simply rejected societal demands for "doing gender", that she was a gender abolitionist in a sense, but here she is talking about being dissociated from being a woman. This perhaps legitimises people like Stella to say that lesbians fancy themselves as men, which I found deeply offensive (she said this in another place).

@L_Martin

3 ай бұрын

@@eco7221 Yes, it's really depressing. It's a shame, another lesbian commented as well but her reply isn't visible.

I still don't know what 'gender-inappropriate' means.

Terms such as "chest feeding" is not neutral language, it is de-humanising language.

I almost didn’t recognize her with the longer hairstyle.

Sounds like Foucault saying there are no scientific truths.

51:56 Is she seriously saying that ‘gender identity’ really exists and that she has a ‘male gender identity’ and therefore she’s actually a man?! Maybe she’s ironic and I don’t get that (English is not my first language) but I’m confused.

@widerlenspod

3 ай бұрын

She's saying she identifies WITH men, not that she identifies AS a man. So she is saying she can understand that feeling of "gender identity" but she very clearly knows what a woman is and she knows that she is a woman.

"does my bum look big in this?"

@lynnm6413

3 ай бұрын

Any woman asking this already knows it is a yes…otherwise she‘s not ask

You are a virago. A masculine woman, just as there are effeminate men. So the point is to keep clear the difference between biological sex which cannot be changed without severe consequences and gender which is psychic, social and cultural and can be changed.

Their negligence is disgusting. They should all have their licenses revoked. They’re also spreading this form of behavior that’s poisoning our society. They must all be stopped

Awesome! Kathleen Stock thinks of herself as a man!! 😂😂😂 That is honestly great to bring up the image of the self within the self without imposing it upon othera

@j.e.6372

3 ай бұрын

I dont trust women who can’t conceive of themselves as women because they like comfortable clothes and value men more than women. That kind of deep adherence to sex stereotypes is the reason we are in this mess to begin with.

@Gingerblaze

3 ай бұрын

And yet her personality does not come across as particularly masculine at all.

@charlesbrown1365

3 ай бұрын

Yes , gender is determined by objective bodily characteristics, not subjective feelings.

@gh4939

3 ай бұрын

I don’t think that’s what she was trying to say

@lalynn967

3 ай бұрын

​@@gh4939but that's what she said.

Thanks for the great interview. Kathleen you put it perfectly. I have a male brain but a female body so I am a woman who can hang w the dudes and get treated like one often but I am a woman. Was called a boy as a child even

@Gingerblaze

3 ай бұрын

Do you mean you have a more boyish personality? Brain sex doesn't really exsist.

@clairhonnor6211

3 ай бұрын

The male/ female brain thing , not a thing. Been debunked. Women who ' aren't like other women ' need to have a think about why they are so proud of that.

I really dont understand the issue. A transwoman is just another type of woman. What's the problem?

@SchrodingersTransCat

3 ай бұрын

A white woman is a female. A black woman is a female. An old woman is a female. A disabled woman is a female. A woman who has had a hysterectomy is a female. A warrior woman is a female. A transwoman is a male. Spot the difference. 😉

I've seen ALL of Kathleen Stocks interviews on KZread and I'm always surprised how boring she is.

@LeCerfMalade

3 ай бұрын

So boring you're obsessively watching ALL of her videos? 🤭

@eco7221

3 ай бұрын

​@@LeCerfMaladeI get the comment, I also obsessively watch gender related interviews. Stock is influencing the debate but she's not my favourite thinker. I was very impressed with her work to begin with but my enthusiasm has waned. I couldn't put my finger on it for a while but now I get it thanks to this interview.

@Pigletpronto

Ай бұрын

Guess what - it’s a boring issue & what Stock is achieving is bringing forth straightforward commonal garden sensible about it & so for the rock stars lookers, they are going to be unimpressed I guess. It’s her put of pure logic that’s genius beauty. & yeah I think she also looks lovely. She’s a fighter for the dignity of men & women, she provides that vigour and yet I also feel sad for her own distress she’s been through reflected re her own dress sence & what it’s meant. I want it to mean nothing ( bar fun or fresh on occasion I can bother to think ) I’ll wear anything, plad plain or bouquet. Full make up for major event or non at all most of all. I personally find a good way to be is invisibly sexually - no need to project what is no-ones business bar mine with my partner. I want more for her but she’s already got more power than most of us perfect by our fingertip. Thank her for defending facts via language

@hoppetosse8

Ай бұрын

Then don't watch I guess?

I don't know where is the problem in being trans .. some people have gender dysphoria. At a great level ... It's like criticizing some one who has a condition.. It's real ... Also people are attracted to genders not sexes ...

@VaporRize08

3 ай бұрын

No, I'm attracted to ones sex primarily as a lesbian. I'm same sex attracted. Within that sole attraction to females, how women dress may affect my attraction to them. But primarily they must be female first.

@apocalypse12345

3 ай бұрын

@@VaporRize08 ok so one of you must be masculine the other should be feminine ... Musculine lesbians desire FEM lesbians ... I don't see egalitarian homosexuality as making sense .

@VaporRize08

3 ай бұрын

@@apocalypse12345 this is just you making stuff up. There can be any combination of dress in a lesbian relationship. What makes it a lesbian relationship is the two participants be female and only attracted to females. You must not have much experience with homosexuality if you think masculine lesbians only want femme.

@joen4642

3 ай бұрын

21:30

@apocalypse12345

3 ай бұрын

​@@joen4642homosexulity is on a scale of variation . Genuine gender nonconforming kids should grow up to be trans... Because they suffer dysphoria. Some kids are effiminate.. but they have no problem with Thier sex . So they grow up homosexual ...genders dysphoria is permenant ... To deny this is a lie .

you ARE dealing with a cult