Its so good to hear from you. Thanks for the review. Saved me a ton of money - not to speak disrespectful of the dead. You and Wendy, blus skies & following seas. Cheers..!

@SailingTalisman

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks so much William.

Good tour Kevin👍

@SailingTalisman

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks Norman!

Agree completely with you on the performance. We baby sat a Dufour 43 for a friend for two weeks in the VI. I was amazed at how quick it was but going upwind was definitely a pounding compared to our Bristol 43. The Admiral made lunch going upwind. She was amazed at how noisy it was below.

@SailingTalisman

2 жыл бұрын

That pounding is almost endemic to the production boats, and is a function of their relatively flat forefoot and light weight. And this hurts their speed when beating into a swell as the boat gets stopped dead every few waves. This can happen to Talisman too, but more rarely. Talisman does this thing where she climbs up a wave, races down the following face, then shears the next wave in half.

Maybe I missed it but what was the price? I see an ad for one in Annapolis at $460,000. The other day I was watching videos of the Kraken 50’ sailboat. This designer is going back to basics with a zero keel (no bolts), one rudder with skeg, one helm and a huge engine compartment. I think people looking for a Bluewater Yacht will find this boat interesting but still $800,000 for initial boat. Probably $1,000,000 by the time it is totally outfitted. Are you and Wendy staying for the US Sailboat Show in October. That should be fun to see all the new boats and accessories!

@SailingTalisman

2 жыл бұрын

Hi Allan. We generally don't research pricing when we do these boat reviews because within 6 months or so the price becomes dated. However, as you note, at any time you can do a quick search on Yachtworld and get current cost, which is a superior method anyway. The issue we try to at least hint at is that there is a significant difference between heavy duty bluewater boats and the lightly built coastal cruisers. But as I'm fond of saying, people vote with their wallets, and by the numbers the production boats are more popular as measured in boats sold. The average buyer just doesn't venture out into the open ocean that often, and for inshore work and entertaining, the production versions are pleasing to the eye and can be had for a fraction of the price. But the only way to get bluewater build quality at an affordable price is to opt for an older boat and do the work to upgrade it to modern specs (which is what we did).

There is a nav station, at end of the seating area remove cushions and slide up the table when in use. Also, Hull design should be considered when touring any sailboat! Anyway, I'd choose an oyster over any production sailboat. Cheers!

@SailingTalisman

2 жыл бұрын

Yep. There's a way to make sort of a chart table, but I'd stop short of calling it a proper nav station. But it's a 43. What are you supposed to do? There just isn't room in these smaller boats. As for hull design, the pattern for most production hulls these days presents a wider transom, hard chines, twin helms, and flat forefoot/plumb bow - and doing all of this with a very lightweight construction (strong enough, but somewhat flexible and very light). The design is inherently fast, but less forgiving in heavy weather due to the fact that they tend to heel more (liking the reduced wetted area). The heavier bluewater boats will often have a center cockpit, which places the traveler behind the binnacle, and this puts the mainsheet directly along the load path from the clew of the mainsail. Booms are less at risk here, especially with a loose-footed sail, and the reason why I complemented the heavy duty boom speced on the Dufour. I was honestly impressed. The center cockpit (on the bluewater boats) typically gives less entertaining space topsides, but does offer a feeling of safety in heavy weather and the larger and more luxurious aft owner's cabin. The aft main cabin doesn't work on aft cockpit (production) designs

Where was this taken? I noticed a boat in the front of this one that is from the town where we live.

@SailingTalisman

2 жыл бұрын

Hi Wayne. It was in Annapolis Harbor, Maryland (Eastport side).

Hi Kevin, an interesting tour around a typical production yacht. I have to say I think fashion plays a major role here. They are designed for the marina. So, "Square Windows"! I mean talk about high stress areas in the window corner - all wrong. I dislike the current fashion of a shear vertical bow. Whack something with that and the shock just gets sent right along the hull - not clever. I also am not keen on semi circular hulls and a bolted on keels. The stresses at the top of these keels are enormous. Having said all that for an inshore party yacht with a huge cockpit it definitey ticks all the boxes, but I'll keep my 485 :-)... Thanks for the video.

@SailingTalisman

2 жыл бұрын

Hi Dick. Great to hear from you again. The design features you note are the result (in my opinion) of quite amazing computer aided design programs that allow for correction to otherwise flawed decisions. Of course, these "corrections" have been built on past failures, such as keels detaching and the crews dying on several of the production boats, but the numbers are supposedly good now. I recall an episode of the Volvo Ocean Race where one of the rudder stocks had sheared off, and the skipper was irate, yelling at the camera that he'd asked for a stainless stock but had been denied, being told that the engineers promised the trick carbon fiber design was way over-engineered. Whoops. I guess they later added another 10% to the formula back at Farr, since these programs are highly proprietary. However, we should note too that Oyster is doing something similar (identical) with their Seascape windows (triple vertical windows inset into the hull, with the lower part at or near the waterline). These are now a signature feature on the new yachts and to my knowledge have been problem free. A lot of engineering going on there to keep it that way.

@normanboyes4983

2 жыл бұрын

I assume you are referring to the square windows as the famed cause of the Comet airliner failures? While it is well understood that square corners do act as stress raisers what you see in this design is not particularly what you get and the square corners may just be the aesthetic finished surface that carries no structural loads. Those loads are probably carried by an internal ring stiffener and then to the hull monocoque. BTW the history of the Comet structural failure has been revised as understanding of fatigue failure has developed since the 1954 investigation. IIRC the conclusion of current thinking is that it was less to do with the ‘square windows’ and actually created during the manufacturing process of punch riveting (rather than drill, rivet and glue) which caused small cracks which grew under the repeated loading of the pressure cabin. I believe the actual aircraft that were lost were also used as sort of test mules and they were subjected to harsher pressure testing than actually required ‘by law’ presumably because De Havilland wanted to increase confidence in their design and manufacture - however they did not realise these additional stress cycles work hardened this early alloy, making it more vulnerable to cracking.

Nice boat, but I prefer an Oyster only because they are get at sea. I think the new 495 is in my future!!! Happy sailing

@SailingTalisman

2 жыл бұрын

Hi Dennis. We prefer the Oyster too, obviously.

Kevin, the interior quality of your Oyster 485 is surely way higher than that Dufour. I guess after 25 years it would look really shabby with peeling veneers, discoloured plastic etc.

@ukrainewarroom8410

2 жыл бұрын

Yup, and that's why I hate the modern boats, most of them look like cheap caravans inside. The boat I'm looking at, i want a 2005 or older model, because after that they changed the interior to this pastic coated wood style interior. It looks nasty. It's not the price, but that way I'm also getting a better quality interior for less.

@SailingTalisman

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah, the Oysters (and other semi-custom brands like Hallberg Rassy, Amel, Swan, Hylas, Malo, Najad, Tayana, Passport, etc.) have a totally different/insane level of quality. Oyster takes a hull and builds a wood frame inside, then fits it out with heavy fiddled hardwood doweled, glued, and screwed to the veneered marine ply panels. It's amazingly strong and you can hang your body weight from most of it. But that's also why we bought a 20+ year old boat instead of a newer one. The cost was just way out of our price range for new, or even near new, and it's so important to reserve a cruising fund so you actually go sailing once you buy the boat.

I don't wish to say anything negative about the Dufour, but the only one I would want is the old 12000 CT with that amazing interior and decent offshore capabilities.

@SailingTalisman

2 жыл бұрын

Yep. Understood. We often tell folks that the older Jeanneau's and Beneteau's are better built. If you get back into eighties, you see boats with huge winches and heavy build quality. Even the 1995-2003 Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 52.2 was a pretty rugged boat that can be found pretty inexpensively these days.

Actually quite like quarter berths - they don't look as fancy but you can't fall out of the bed, essentially have in built leeboards. Not so sure about the batteries being so low down.

@SailingTalisman

2 жыл бұрын

Hi Tom. I like the quarter berths too, for the reason you mention. Our aft cabin has built in lee cloths, and they are absolutely needed on passage, and perhaps that's why I see beds on the newer Oysters that look like you could fall out easier. I'm thinking that they just figure you'll rig the lee cloths in any event, so why worry about people bracing themselves. I think the low battery design is something that's common to most boats, and getting weight low and centered helps performance greatly.

Nice boat! Thanks! I missed the cost? WTF?!

@SailingTalisman

2 жыл бұрын

Hi Peter. We never list a price when we do these tours since the number becomes outdated almost immediately. The easy way is to simply look it up on Yachtworld. This will give you current pricing, and since the footage is only a couple of months old, I'd say it would be current for this boat.

@hunsadersrockinranch

2 жыл бұрын

@@SailingTalisman Why wouldn't you state that in the video? The sale of this boat is ? ? ? On todays date? Subject to change!

Interesting, I agree with your assessment, you would have to upgrade a few pieces of equipment to give it blue water capabilities, but all in all well thought out, and nicely finished. If you are in Annapolis and you have the opportunity to do a tour of an Island Packet 420 I would be interested in your critique.

@SailingTalisman

2 жыл бұрын

Yes, we'll be at Annapolis, although Talisman will still be on the hard. We have it in mind to invite the viewers to come over the Bert Jabin Yacht Yard (in Annapolis) for a tour if they want. The boat won't be in presentation condition as we have a bunch of projects that will be going on, but nevertheless an opportunity to see what she looks like first hand.

No Nav station? It seemed a little cramped.

@SailingTalisman

2 жыл бұрын

Hi John. As another commenter points out, there are small tracks along the bulkhead (visible in the video) that allow the seat to be made into a small chart table. But I still wouldn't grant it "nav station" status. The fact is that this is a small boat and as things get smaller, something has to give. It's a zero sum game here. Whatever you get in one area gets taken from somewhere else, so it's a matter of trying to predict what the buyer/owner is willing to give up. Unfortunately, and this is the case with all boats I find, the main thing that gets sacrificed is stowage, which you desperately need on a liveaboard cruising boat.

I would choose an Oyster 62 with in boom furling.

@SailingTalisman

2 жыл бұрын

It would be a nice ride! Plus you'd still get the horizontal battens in the sail.

Problaby saildrive propulsion instead of shaft. Saildrive is another point of maintenance added.

@SailingTalisman

2 жыл бұрын

Wow Camilla. Best comment yet! I never mentioned it, but Saildrive is something that benefits the builder more than the buyer in my opinion. The main feature for the builder is that the engine manufacturer takes over warranty for the entire engine and outdrive, whereas with direct drive the warranty is only for the engine, while the builder must warranty any alignment or other shaft/bearing/prop issues. And the service interval on the rubber diaphragm that waterproofs the hull-to-Saildrive is something in the neighborhood of 10 years, which is a period of time that flashes by in an instant. The diaphragms are pretty tough, kind of like car tire material, but should one fail your boat sinks. And to replace them requires disconnecting the engine from the Saildrive unit, undoing the motor mounts, and literally sliding the entire engine back far enough to disengage the spline shaft. It's no small task.

@camillawilliams3954

2 жыл бұрын

@@SailingTalisman Indeed. Warranty is one thing but the manufacturing cost is also an argument. It’s easier and less time consuming to build in sail drive than shaft propulsion. Even Hallberg-Rassy is now installing sail drives in their new boat series and many are following.

@SailingTalisman

2 жыл бұрын

@@camillawilliams3954 Agreed. Interesting stuff out there.

I don't know about that one.... In a strange way it reminds me of a Coleman Pop-Up...

@SailingTalisman

2 жыл бұрын

Hmm. A lid for every pot, my mom used to say.

Give me Talisman any day !!

@SailingTalisman

2 жыл бұрын

Indeed.

It seemed a little odd that the batteries were right below the steps.

@SailingTalisman

2 жыл бұрын

Hi Martin. That's pretty common, and Talisman's are similarly located. Batteries are heavy and this weight is best kept along the centerline of the boat and as low as practical. Amel locates their aft/outboard inside a settee, but Amels are a completely different animal.

@mvdeehan

2 жыл бұрын

@@SailingTalisman Thanks Kevin that makes sense!

@SailingTalisman

2 жыл бұрын

@@mvdeehan You bet!

Chartered a 460gl last year in Italy. Encountered a squall. That stupid lose cover they have for the stove on their boats, almost killed my wife. Flied like an F15. The engineers of this company are not sailors!

@SailingTalisman

2 жыл бұрын

Hi Joel. I once read about a guy who was nearly killed by an airborne frozen chicken that was ejected from the refrigerator box (by way of the lid) when the boat was knocked down in heavy weather. He suffered a serious concussion and was out for the rest of the passage. It's taken some time for Wendy and I to get the knack for prepping Talisman for heavy weather, but we also benefit from the boat being very "stiff" (as opposed to "tender"), and she rarely heels dramatically. To your point though, I would agree about the engineers except that they are sailors. If you look at who designs the big production boats you see names like Umberto Felci, Judel/Vrolijk, Philippe Briand, and Farr Yacht Design. Perhaps it's an after the fact change that results in some of the stupid stuff, but I actually often give them credit for adding the little touches their owners ask for (although that definitely happens with Oyster too).

Gardenindhose in the engingroom, typical Volvo- Penta. Crap.

@SailingTalisman

2 жыл бұрын

Hi Haken (?). Ours (Talisman) is a Yanmar, which I've been happy with. Volvo Penta is probably the next largest supplier (or perhaps the largest), and the folks we know that have them seem okay with the brand. I'd say they have a reputation for being expensive when it comes to parts. Some of the newer Oysters are now using Volkswagen TDI diesels. But the people I feel sorry for are those that have Perkins. According to Kim and Simon on Britican, Caterpillar bought Perkins and is now no longer supporting the brand, making parts increasingly difficult to source. I'd also opt for direct-drive rather than Saildrive.