Because Elden Ring released after Sekiro, it's easy to think about anything from Sekiro being rolled forward into Elden Ring. However, the development of both games actually overlapped, and they've said in interviews that Sekiro didn't necessarily have an opportunity to strongly affect Elden Ring, as Sekiro concluded when Elden Ring was already well on its way. The potential for a complete, or nearly complete Tomoe concept to get started on for DLC, get scrapped, and then get featured in Elden Ring as Malenia doesn't seem to fit cleanly in the development timeline. So, even if there may be some Sekiro DNA in her design, the idea at least that Malenia is "just Tomoe" or even really represents what a Tomoe fight would've been like feels unlikely.

@Er404ChannelNotFound

3 ай бұрын

Thank you for addresssing that. I was getting really tired of seeing that baseless theory getting spread by people with no evidence.

@Schpeltiger

3 ай бұрын

So you're saying that we can expect to fight Tomoe in the Shadow of the Erdtree DLC? *huffs copium* Let's go!

@liegeparadox2624

3 ай бұрын

My theory is that the overlap is a result of borrowing concepts, without the intent to mirror like the master/student pairs. Like, “hey, we’re working on an incredibly strong swordswoman, we think they’re going to use a katana.” “Oh hey, here’s some concept attacks from one we decided that we weren’t going to make, maybe you can use them.” Then all the code and animations were built from scratch, which is why it feels like it’s a sekiro boss, but has no direct link.

@seedmole

3 ай бұрын

Yeah this is something that irks me about a lot of comments, where people say a company should have learned this or that from their prior game. They always vastly underestimate how long the development of a game takes, and act like things that only became apparent after the release of one game could somehow be factored into the engine of a game coming out a year later.

@hyp0782

3 ай бұрын

It's actually very nice to see a sekiro video after a long time. I am sorry but there is a not cut content model of tomoe in the fountainhead palace. She is seen hugging the sarcophagus of a dead fountainhead noble. That place also should have been the boss area of tomoe. But malenia is never expected to be tomoe because her water fowl dance looks a lot like one mind of ishin. So she can't be tomoe.

"I am Lady Tomoe, Blade of Takeru. And I have never known DLC."

@caio3568

3 ай бұрын

We've found it boys, the video's Master Comment. Now bring it up.

@kamilmalach6383

3 ай бұрын

Underrated comment

@alejandror.3861

3 ай бұрын

Best comment, congrats.

@Yazilei

3 ай бұрын

Congrats on getting the best underrated comment

@mergixedef3723

2 ай бұрын

Truth

Tomoe is obviously the carthus sandworm because of the lightning

@bertvanbeterbed9702

3 ай бұрын

So Tomoe is actually Solaire, got it

@jim_hawkins_blues

3 ай бұрын

Actually laughed out loud

@gr33dl0cknein3

3 ай бұрын

@@bertvanbeterbed9702 Tomoe is Gwyn's firstborn, confirmed.

@sharkattack153

3 ай бұрын

​@@gr33dl0cknein3 yeah, after ds3 the nameless king transitioned and became a shinobi

@thosebloodybadgers8499

3 ай бұрын

​@@gr33dl0cknein3 The Divine Dragon came from "the West", likely then being a descendant of the Ancient Dragons, similarly to wyverns who survived the destruction of their species and changed in numerous ways. Similarly, the forgotten God of Anor Londo exiled himself and made his living with the descendants of the ancient dragons, learning from them and combining their power. Thus did he birth a secluded culture of people, together aspiring for the strength and essence of the dragons. The Divine Dragon is clearly immortal but also has control over lightning, thus we can deduce that the Divine Dragon is actually a perfected form of transformation into a dragon by somebody connected to Gwyn's divine lineage, in turn also creating the followers of the Okami clan who inherited both the might of the dragons and Gwyn's divine lightning. Tomoe is a descendant of the Nameless King and the King of the Storm having hot say gex ❤️

The truth is, Malenia was actually studying techniques under her distant uncle - Sir Alonne.

@LordDragox412

3 ай бұрын

Sir Forever Alonne.

@Babadui

3 ай бұрын

Why is Sir Alonne so loved? I think he's the most overhyped boss in the Dark Souls series: - His lore is just that he was chosen by the Iron King as a bodyguard, teached his weeabos ways to the guards and then promptly fucked off when the Iron King got done by the Smelter Demon. -He has a total of like, 8 moves? And 2 of those are the same move but done in different speed. -He's just as generic as the normal Alonne soldiers, a big dude in armor, but somehow he's cooler? -Hides behind an incredibly obnoxious gauntlet every time you want to fight him. I don't know, I never liked Alonne, it's not a bad fight, but I don't see why so many fans have this raging boner for him.

@lordofshades9852

3 ай бұрын

​@Babadui it's because he's like the player character Shows up out of nowhere, dominated the land

@HoplessNihilist

3 ай бұрын

distant aunt, Tomoe*

@Only2GendersExist

3 ай бұрын

@@Babadui Have you SEEN how pristine he keeps his floor tho?!

Lack of Sekiro DLC has never stopped making me sad.

@thestormwizard6447

3 ай бұрын

On the plus-side, less money for Activision

@childofcascadia

3 ай бұрын

Lack of bloodborne on PC has never stopped making me sad.

@jakevuckturd1201

3 ай бұрын

Lack of having a lack of not having a lack of something makes me sad

@Soulute367

3 ай бұрын

​@@thestormwizard6447I think that's why Fromsoft didn't make a dlc for Sekiro.

@thehungrylittlenihilist

3 ай бұрын

Don't be sad about not having DLC. Be happy a studio made a complete game for once.

Holy shit that detail with the simmilarities between Owl and Sekiro's fighting style goes deep. I thought mikiri and shinobi tools were the only things they had in common, but even the way they attack? This a very cool insight. I understand why Miyazaki says Owl is his favourite boss fight in the game.

@quint3ssent1a

3 ай бұрын

I had a similar realisation when I bought Cloud Passage early in the game from Carp vendor and later I realised that not only Genichiro used the same move but Palace guards use it as well.

@PikkelP

3 ай бұрын

he probably said that only because Owl carries throwable poison swamp capsules.

@Ancient078978

3 ай бұрын

The mikiri counter deathblow Owl uses in his fight is the same as the finishing blow Sekiro uses on him. They step onto the other's sword, jump over their head, and stab them through the back. They then pull their sword out while making a praying gesture. Owl even brings up its name as he dies: "Death of a Shadow." The way shared fighting styles were portrayed in Sekiro was really cool, and it's a shame Elden Ring didn't do anything similar.

@alexanderhenriquez9354

3 ай бұрын

@@PikkelPyou know what, youre probably right. Now i want the pocket swamp ninja tool

@carlossssssss5492

3 ай бұрын

​@@Ancient078978How would they even do something like that in Elden Ring? ER and Sekiro are very different types of games.

Until that clip at 2:51 I never noticed that Malenia changes her sword length mid attack by sliding the sword to a different position in her hand. That's a cool detail.

@intensebug

3 ай бұрын

Mohg also does this with his trident, he slips his grip further down so he can swing farther with it and catch you when you think you're out of range, at least on a couple attacks

@teaz3139

3 ай бұрын

She does something similar to half-swording, a real life medieval technique.

@lewisleslie2821

3 ай бұрын

I wonder if the sparks imply that she has some kind of gear or wheel in her prosthetic palm that allows the blade to slide through her hand like that. A very cool detail indeed

@chilfang2422

3 ай бұрын

Margrit does it too but hes way more obvious

@SupaFly-gx1zo

3 ай бұрын

You never heard the metal click as she moved it back in place during the fight? They made that so obvious

It think people compare them because Waterfowl Dance bears a striking resemblance to Spiral Cloud Passage visually, a combat art of Tomoe

@BlueOga

3 ай бұрын

This needs to be a top comment.

@Cameron115

3 ай бұрын

I was waiting for Zullie to mention this but shocked to see it absolutely nowhere in the video, I hope there's a response to this comment about it, not saying it proves anything but I want to see what it could mean if anything in this context

@milesedgeworth132

3 ай бұрын

Yeah, it's weird that they never mentioned that and only mentioned the similarities she has to Sekiro.

@nygomi8652

3 ай бұрын

Reviewing them, I wouldn't say so. There's similarities in the last swing and air slashes, but the tempo of the moves is very different. Waterfowl has a much more noticeable pause in the swings: 1,2,3,4, --, 5,6, -- , 7,8,9, -, 10. Meanwhile Spiral has virtually no pauses and is continuous in its nine swings. It's clearly inspired by, but is different when you examine it.

@geld1620

3 ай бұрын

​@@nygomi8652 well if normal spiral cloud passage was in elden ring it would actually be undodgable lol. I don't think pointing out timing changes done for gameplay purposes is the richest insight. Lotta people familiar with sekiro get the reference basically right away that she's just doing spiral cloud passage cus, well, she's just doing spiral cloud passage lol.

I like this version of Kakariko Village. It sounds like it's being played by Mist Noble.

@ultraphoenix95

3 ай бұрын

I like to hang out at night in Kakariko, it's calm and relaxing.

@davidhong1934

3 ай бұрын

I wonder if the Mist Noble has a mix tape

@raskal8112

3 ай бұрын

Hey, I get that reference! Literally only because I saw a message at the beginning of consecrated snowfield that said "mist noble?"

@SireBab

3 ай бұрын

I can see that, the volume felt weirdly loud for a xully xully video though

@blarg2429

3 ай бұрын

@@davidhong1934 Don't you mean a mist tape?

Seeing as Elden Ring and Sekiro were in development around the same time, and Malenia as a character was clearly fully conceived by the time Sekiro came out (as evidenced by the 2019 trailer), I think it's likely that during this time Miyazaki just liked the idea of a "dancing swordswoman" archetype, as seen with the okami women in Fountainhead Palace, descriptions of Tomoe in dialogue, and of course Malenia herself. The juxtaposition of someone that posseses a striking elegance and refinement while still being able to kick your ass harder than anyone else is absolutely in line with the kinds of characters Miyazaki likes to make

@ZullietheWitch

3 ай бұрын

I was just looking at the 2019 trailer earlier, but I completely overlooked that implication of it. Malenia already being shown that early establishes a pretty narrow timeline.

@vitya1980

3 ай бұрын

@@ZullietheWitch Bosses almost certainly went through several different revisions and certain moves were added at different dates. TBH, I just think some Sekiro anims and effects were reused for final version Malenia. She seems to have atleast one move (her spin kick thing) directly lifted from the purple interior ministry ninja dudes, plus her Waterfowl just seems to reuse the fancy effect work from Sekiro. People make up all these wild theories about cut content, when reality is just a boring "they reused the animation rigs lol"

@conspiracypanda1200

3 ай бұрын

​​@@ZullietheWitchWe do know that Malenia was severely scaled back several times. The ground based Waterfowl that was removed is certainly a nightmare that could be more reasonably countered with Sekiro mechanics.. Doesn't mean she was Tomoe or used any of Tomoe's supposed assets, but just like a lot of DS3 had inspiration/design overlap from Bloodborne, I'm pretty sure the same happened here with Sekiro and Elden Ring.

While I don't think a lack of lightning necessarily means much, given the Tree Spirits different elements, the lack of similar animations is pretty convincing. A "vague Sekiro inspiration" rather than ported over assets seems most likely, especially since being the game's poster girl would have gotten her a lot of care and attention in design.

@artemisDev

3 ай бұрын

Yeah, I think the only thing they took from Sekiro was waterfoul dance, but I must say she her attacks does fit Sekiro more. But that's rather subjective.

@TannerGr8rix

3 ай бұрын

I think Malenia is partly a style tribute to Sekiro(the game), Wolf/Sekiro(the character), and the Dragonrot disease in Sekiro. Wolf wields a katana and has a prosthetic limb, is concerned only with fighting/killing and serving his lord, his resurrective powers cause sickness to those around him through supernatural means (Dragonrot) and present as bleached white skin and hair, and pursuing a path of such violence can/will lead him to succumb to a destructive power (Shura) if he doesn't seek balance. Meanwhile Malenia wields a katana WITH her prosthetic limb, is never ascribed motivations beyond being The Undefeated and the Blade of Miquella, she's cursed with the Scarlet Rot which gradually destroys her own body and her closest followers and presents as bleached skin on her body, and pursuing a deadly war with Radahn and choosing to release the Scarlet Rot leads to her inevitable embrace of a destructive power.

@EmilKlingberg

3 ай бұрын

Have you seen the mod someone did, bringing her into sekrio, everything matches the combat perfectly. Truly makes it look like she was some kind of cut boss

@simonealcazar816

3 ай бұрын

@@EmilKlingberg That took multiple animations for other bosses from Sekiro including having to reconstruct her move set to fit Sekiro’s combat style. They even speed up some of her moves. It only looks like it fit AFTER he changed a lot in how she was program. It’s actually proves she wasn’t designed for Sekiro.

@jamesarthurkimbell

3 ай бұрын

@@EmilKlingberg Ongbal said he found the fight pretty clunky and bad. Obviously From would put more polish than a modder, but this clearly isn't a case of "just put her in the game and it works"

i always thought that one thrust attack she does would make for a perfect mikiri counter.

@SaHaRaSquad

3 ай бұрын

There's a mod which puts Malenia into Sekiro with Sekiro mechanics and yes, she fits perfectly into that game.

@justinhurowitz70

3 ай бұрын

@@SaHaRaSquad they had to change her significantly to make her work in sekiro and even then its noticeably different from actual sekiro bosses

@lebronjames635

3 ай бұрын

@@justinhurowitz70no shit as it’s a boss from elden ring. They obviously had to change some stuff, and this goes both ways

@wraithwrecker_

3 ай бұрын

@@lebronjames635 Doesn't that kinda prove the point though? That Malenia probably wasn't an unused Sekiro boss?

@justacasualguy13

3 ай бұрын

​@@wraithwrecker_ no one actually believes that malenia was just ported from sekiro to elden ring, obviously she had to be changed drastically to work in a completely different game. but it is absolutely possible that the foundation for her design was an unused boss from sekiro.

I always thought that Malenia's "flowing" style was related to the blind swordman, her mentor who taught her how to fight her curse by using a flowing style that kept her in constant motion in contrast to the "stillness" of rot. If the master-student relation is also valid for Elden Ring, then it would make sense to not find those kind of animations in Sekiro since they came from another unseen character from Elden Ring's lore.

@RavensWings11

3 ай бұрын

That's a really beautiful insight.

@nightfall_6521

3 ай бұрын

Damn I can't believe Zatoichi was Malenia's teacher

@goofygoober875

3 ай бұрын

what the hell is the "stillness" of rot? that makes no sense, anyone inflicted with rot is in agonizing pain as their limbs fall off and their body turns into mush from the inside. it's analogous to cancer

@ansar4454

3 ай бұрын

Even bigger conspiracy is now coming into fruition - final DLC boss will be Malenia's mentor

@liamsmurthwaite9434

Ай бұрын

this is 100 percent correct if you find the flowing water sword (the blind swordsman's sword) the ash of war is almost identical to the waterfowl dance but not as powerful

I think you should make a separate video showing similarities in the way Teacher/Student fight in Sekiro as there are way more than people realize. I can give a few examples that i know of. 1.Owl father throwing a shuriken then dashing and hitting Sekiro is like Chasing Slice ability Sekiro can Unlock, Whirlwind Slash is used by Inner Father and also Mist Raven, Owl father can use Shadowfall like Sekiro can. 2.Emma Dashes like Ishin and Input Reads Heals into an attack similar to Ishin and there are many other similarities. 3.Floating Passage is also used by enemies in Fountainhead Palace and they also use Bow like Genichiro. 4.Different enemies in Sekiro can use Ashina Cross. Ichimonji, High Monk, Praying Strikes, and Ninjatar Slash.

@ivorymask2599

3 ай бұрын

i always found it notable that Lady Butterfly and the Interior Ministry Shinobi used attacks very similar to Senpou Leaping Kicks and High Monk

I've never been more satisfied with a several minute video that basically just says ''probably not but I have no idea''

2:50 I absolutely need to point out how insane Malenia's animations are. Pay attention to her sword arm during her flurry technique here. From could have easily just made her attack faster while holding her sword toward the grip like always, but they made her shift her hand position further up the blade so she can swing faster. And then for the last stroke in the combo she slides her hand back to the grip position and you can HEAR the sound of metal on metal as her golden prosthetic moves across the sword. And there are sparks! They did NOT have to do this yet they did. This is why we all spend so much time outside of these games pouring over everything. From's attention to detail is just crazy.

@Sam-iv8iw

3 ай бұрын

I do believe that this was also to make that attack have less range, also wouldve looked really stupid if the sword was fully extended for the attack Edit: also the sound is used as a cue to determine if malenia will delay the extending of the sword, longer sound = delayed extend

@dgalloway107

3 ай бұрын

@@Sam-iv8iwProbably too long to be swung that quickly without building full body momentum like with Waterfowl.

@mythicalthings1796

3 ай бұрын

Too bad shes such a mechanically unsound boss otherwise.

@carlossssssss5492

3 ай бұрын

​@@mythicalthings1796👎

@Sam-iv8iw

3 ай бұрын

@@mythicalthings1796 truth

For me it’s also always been the name of the move. “Waterfowl dance” sounds exactly like a name that would come from someone who was from the fountainhead palace

Def used the notes and bones (Great warrior woman protecting a divine childlike being out of devotion) but over and above that they seemed to create Malenia from her own lore both in design and in fighting style. Love this approach to game design

@specialnewb9821

3 ай бұрын

Yeah, general concept but not more imo

@TannerGr8rix

3 ай бұрын

Like how Artorias is a Dark Souls character design tribute to Berserker Armor Guts, Malenia is a self-referencing tribute to Sekiro

More likely, we've seen Tomeo's moves in Inner Genichiro. The Sakura Dance, the varied transitions into Floating Passage, the double reverse... these are exactly what you'd imagine in a boss who has that style but better.

The ‘never confirmed to begin with’ part at 3:56 with the reflection in the water? Brilliant

Interesting, I think this rumour is so easily spread because Malenia just felt like a character you would fight in Sekiro. I’m surprised nobody has gotten Miyazaki to confirm or deny anything about this yet.

@ZullietheWitch

3 ай бұрын

Sekiro was published by Activision and Elden Ring was published by Bandai Namco, so there's no world where he'd ever confirm it even if it were true, just because of the potential legal issues.

@jcace13

3 ай бұрын

Ahh, that does make sense.@@ZullietheWitch

@BloodyArchangelus

3 ай бұрын

From has whole rights of sekiro. There can not be legai issues/@@ZullietheWitch

@violet9214

3 ай бұрын

Which is really sad because by god do I want this stupid conspiracy to die Great video though :3@@ZullietheWitch

@GodakDS

2 ай бұрын

​@@ZullietheWitchThat is almost certainly false - a publisher does not own non-implemented gameplay ideas; hell, Elden Ring uses some of Sekiro's animations as it is without any legal issue. Assuming that Malenia is even composed of non-implemented Sekiro ideas, Miyazaki might just not want to confirm, or has not been asked in an interview. Ultimately, Malenia was finished. She is in a game. If Tomoe was at one point an idea, she was not finished. She is not in a game. Miyazaki might not want to dwell on an idea he was unable to bring to fruition.

0:28 - diference between 5'11 to 6 foot.

I think a detail that added more fuel to this rumor might be that the unused version of Waterfowl Dance (the one shown at 0:44) is really similar to the Floating Passage and Spiral Cloud Passage combat arts in Sekiro, which Genichiro uses.

@dreamz1417

3 ай бұрын

Also I'm pretty sure (been a while since I've played 1.0) that she has something akin to a Sekiro deflect that got patched out. The Sekiro inspiration is hard to disprove, but I don't think she's reused Tomoe.

@Gensolink

3 ай бұрын

@@dreamz1417 I think it's still very much there, if you combo her too much there's a few actions she can do and one of them is the back dash that back dash will BLOCK your attack for a small bit before retreating

@SaHaRaSquad

3 ай бұрын

No, it's very different. Floating Passage and Spiral Cloud Passage look more like Rivers of Blood's weapon art, with Floating Passage even having similar red effects. Both Passage combat arts consist of a series of two successive slashes in alternating directions and one final slash, while the original Waterfowl Dance is more chaotic, has a different rhythm and includes two spins. It's not even close.

@moneyspider2172

3 ай бұрын

@@SaHaRaSquadThat's what I thought. When I saw that weapon's skill I could have sworn it was one of Genichiro's attack animations

@ASmashedPumpkin7

3 ай бұрын

@@dreamz1417 lmao they didn't patch out her parry, and it isn't very much like a Sekiro deflect, she uses it to retreat

I'm still mildly curious about the harpy and bat enemies in elden ring. There's one bat in particular, up in the mountaintops near where you complete the jellyfish questline, which has an interesting pattern on its wings. It has Eye Spots, a kind of intimidation style camoflauge commonly found on butterflies to make birds think twice about eating them. It's the only bat I've found that has this. It suggests that they evolved that pattern to ward off the big raven enemies in the area, but since there's only one of them, it either didn't work, or isn't an evolutionary trait- perhaps it's paint.

@thediabolicalraisin8953

3 ай бұрын

There's more with marking on them, there's one before the shack. They're also way stronger, too.

I really liked how you demonstrated the similar animations of all the characters in sekiro, clean as hell also this might be the best thumbnail/title combo you've ever done

Zullie! You forgot the most crucial thing! Her Waterfowl Dance is based off of the Spiral Cloud Passage skill in Sekrio.

@tateramessar8787

3 ай бұрын

it is not

Another some other interesting points to bring up such as the shadow clones Okami we’re said to be ghostly, and True Monk (while not a biological Okami) is infamous for making ghostly shadow clones Malenia also makes Shadow clones Then Malenia has a deflect animation, something no other character in Elden Ring has And then there’s the Okami to consider as possibly reflecting Malenia’s fighting style. Okami fight in a dance-like manner and so does Malenia, with even Spiral Cloud passage looking eerily similar to Waterfowl There’s also more similarities that Malenia has to Tomoe and Sekiro that were glossed over but they’re still notable. Both serve young lords and spread rot wherever they go.

@brandenp09

3 ай бұрын

Only nitpick on your list is that Radagon has a deflect animation

@damienmcneff7715

3 ай бұрын

@@brandenp09 his is actually closer to a parry, as he has a similar effect as carian retaliation

@Chonk_enthusiest

3 ай бұрын

I always thought those "clones" were a reference to her daughters

@nightscout9979

3 ай бұрын

@@Chonk_enthusiest There are four constructs made of Aeonian Butterflies, perhaps representing the four "daughters" who are working for the Scarlet Rot outer god. Malenia starting Phase 2 with roughly 80% HP might also represent these "daughters", with the missing 20% representing Millicent refusing to bow to the Scarlet Rot.

regardless of whether there is a connection between Malenia and Tomoe, this video raises an interesting question about similarities in movesets between student/master pairs. In Elden Ring, we know Malenia learned her sword skills from a legendary blind swordsman. If we ever see him in-game, I wonder if From will carry over this trope from Sekiro

@spartanscv

3 ай бұрын

There are items already talking about It, Malenia master fighting style is a reactionary one, they wait for the enemy to attack, that is why Malenia is so passive in first phase

@zoid_on_youtube

3 ай бұрын

@@spartanscv yeah I was just wondering if we will see similarities in his moveset and Malenias to the same extent we saw in the master/student duos of Sekiro, provided we ever meet him

@alexandere9368

3 ай бұрын

Iirc there is curved sword with unique moveset that belonged to him

@2:46 Oops, Sekiro got a blade to the face there; what a wonderful father, amirite?

I'm kinda glad to see this idea being challenged a little bit. It's such a pervasive idea, yet it has very little basis of support to go on. I've seen people swear by this idea as part of their criticism of the boss's presence in Elden Ring, and while there certainly are things to criticize about the implementation of some of her mechanics, I think the Sekiro idea is largely a red herring. There's no evidence of it and it also doesn't matter. This isn't to say it would be unremarkable or uninteresting if the idea was true; it certainly would be both intriguing and noteworthy if it was. It's just that it doesn't really matter either way. Edit: many people in these comments are bringing up how modders have brought Malenia into Sekiro, claiming she "feels" right at home. They fail to consider how much had to change in order for Malenia in Sekiro to even function. Her waterfowl has to drop the aoe phantom slashes, she has to lose her heal-on-hit mechanic (or it must be redesigned), and she must be given perilous attacks which either can't be blocked/parried or must be jumped. None of these fundamental things are true of Malenia in Elden RIng, and these design principles are essential to the design as a whole. These aren't just things that get tacked on. Just because you think a modded version of her "feels" right in Sekiro doesn't make the mod evidence for Malenia originally being a Sekiro boss. There's literally nothing to this idea at all. It's pure vibes and nothing else.

@Kek393

3 ай бұрын

Many of Malenia's fundamental mechanics are either taken straight from Sekiro or don't fit Elden Ring as a game. That's why people latched onto that idea.

@manjiookami7962

13 күн бұрын

Yeah, people are barking on the wrong tree with this "She's Sekiro boss" thing. One attack visually looks like it came from Sekiro and it's hard to dodge because you are playing Dark Souls character who can jump, basically a piece of an outdated gamedesign that doesn't feel comfortable to use against any enemy in this game. Oh and she can deflect your attacks but you can parry her either so point is basically just built on the shared feeling when collective ego was smashed by a piece of code which said "Learn to play the game at least once". Like it's literally the only boss which is basically making people to memorise her attacks and literally dance with her. In the context of the cut lore part and mod when you can cure her it's simply beautiful. But too bad devs thought that fighting Godskins 5 times during the game is more important than keeping possibly the best questline.

On the subject of masters, I do hope we meet the blind swordsman who taught Malenia in the DLC

@TREVORVADER

3 ай бұрын

Make him use that unused waterfowl dance then give it to us as an AoW

One of my fav vids ever by you. So much stuff I didn't know about/didn't realize crammed together. Thank you!

Her waterfowl dance is cloud passage + one mind after slash. They probably didn't port anything, but they must have had a draft of a boss for the dlc, which they abandoned and reworked it to be malenia.

Seeing Ishin and Emma and Owl and Wolf with the same stances is sick. That wolf vs malenia looked epic too

zullie your videos bring me so much joy thank you

Fromsoftware fans when the developers make a loose end that is not explained anywhere: "NO it must have been cut content, they wanted to use it in a DLC"

@seekay8079

2 ай бұрын

No, lol It's not just people wanting it to be cut content. It's been common for From to take unused content or future content and repurpose it.

@riccardocirielli

2 ай бұрын

@@seekay8079 doesn't justify the cope

@seekay8079

2 ай бұрын

​@@riccardocirielli What cope? Cope suggests that what they're saying isn't true, but it's usually right. Yeah, there are some instances where fans are just seeing things that aren't even there, but From has always teased new projects or rehashed unused ones in their games.

@riccardocirielli

2 ай бұрын

@@seekay8079 a lot of stuff was just put there without much thought just for cosmetic purposes and yet Fromsoftware's fans always think that there something deeper. That's the cope lol

I want to point out someone made a Mod that ported her into Sakiro, it was fantastic to watch

Unrelated, very much unrelated, but Bloodborne had this horseman enemy with a peg leg that was cut from the final game (some call it the Nameless Cainhurst Knight) and to me it looks very similar to both the commanders and the banished knights' armors in Elden Ring, it even has a small dragon on its helmet in a similar fashion to the banished knights' one.

It's ridiculous how good your content is. Keep it up.

she can animation cancel into a deflect, dodge, counter-kick which is very core to sekiro's flow. Also spiral cloud passage from sekiro is basically the blueprint for waterfowl dance. I think these are by far the biggest reasons why she feels like a sekiro boss.

I wonder if Activision being the international publisher may have resulted in there being less cut content clues in the game files? With Dark Souls and Elden Ring being more of a solo operation I imagine FromSoft didn't mind leaving some old references to unused content here and there, since they know only themselves and any plucky dataminers will ever see it. Whereas with Sekiro being given to Activision for publishing and possibly some other things like localization and other minor tweaks, maybe FromSoft feared leaving too many unused assets would create a lot of back-and-forth about what was necessary to be included? Also considering Elden Ring was likely well underway by then, they may have thought it best not to leave anything in Sekiro that could give hints to what was upcoming in the event of data leaks, or when the trailer for Elden Ring dropped. Just a thought though. Great video as always Zullie!

2:40 I knew Owl taught Sekiro everything he does like with whirlwind slash, shadowrush, mikiri counter etc, but I never realized they do the exact same combo string lol.

this was a particularly fantastic video. loved seeing that insight about sekiro, what a wonderful game.

Thank you Zullie for your videos, greatly appreciated :)

I think that fromsoft have a bit of a history bringing a boss in the style of their previous game into their current project. Sister Friede, Demon of Hatred and now Malenia are each bosses that would seem right at home in a previous title.

@goofygoober875

3 ай бұрын

i know friede uses at least one of maria's animations where she spins as she leaps into the air. the opener for the third phase

While Genichiro doesn't appear to resemble Malenia's fighting style I do find it interesting to see the similarities in Isshin and Emma's stances to Malenia here at 2:15, it makes me wonder if there are any shared animations or overlaps in ideas there, not to mention old Isshin's area of effect blade flurries in phase 2.

@jamesarthurkimbell

3 ай бұрын

Probably both are descended from Sister Friede animations

Zullie, this is amazing!! Ive often pondered if there is a connection that is beyond thematic there.

Wow.. That was dense. Great vid!

I think this is also a pet theory of a lot of people because Waterfowl Dance *feels* like a combo chain that you would be expected to parry in Sekiro. That attack feels incongruous with the rest of Elden Ring since there aren't a lot of ways to punish it until she's done. Add to that the instant grab stab she does that does a truck load of damage and can one shot a character butttt if you were Sekiro, you'd just revive after being killed.

@Gakulon

3 ай бұрын

Not to mention her multiple thrust attacks which would be prime candidates for the Mikiri Counter

@raptorxrise5386

3 ай бұрын

What are you talking about? Waterfowl is far from the only attack in ER that you cannot attack the boss during (ignoring the fact that some weapons actually can hit her between flurries) like for example morgott has at least one (a combo longer than waterfowl btw) in his second phase. Also "instant grab" what? Her grab has a massive windup what are you talking about its like the most telegraphed move she has

@TREVORVADER

3 ай бұрын

@@raptorxrise5386Morgott isn’t practically invincible during his long combo thing and he doesn’t get anime slashes around him to cover himself including during what should be the player’s attack window like Malenia does

@DeadpoolX9

3 ай бұрын

@@raptorxrise5386 I don’t want to step on your toes here but a second and a half arm raise (which you could definitely put a perilous attack warning over) isn’t really “the most telegraphed” attack compared to “hanging in the air for three and a half seconds” for waterfowl dance

@tyomega9939

3 ай бұрын

@@raptorxrise5386The lengths at which people are trying to say she’s basically a sekiro boss are very desperate tbh. I do not doubt she took INSPIRATION, but she’s an Elden ring boss through and through-seeing her ported into Sekiro shows how pathetically easy she is because she was never designed to be a sekiro boss in the first place

Thematically I always saw Malenia as more of a culmination of the different games Fromsoft has made in the series. It's not a big leap to see inspiration from sekiro, bloodborne, and souls in her design. From her prosthetic limb that's low key a trick weapon, to the designs around her armor and themes of decay, rebirth, and transformation. She also emulates some of the more iconic entities, as i recall people immediately making Lady Maria comparisons. I personally was reminded of Orenstein in her color palette and fighting style when first encountering her. Can't say for certain if this is intentional or not, but it's how I read the design of her character.

@nox6497

3 ай бұрын

Great insights. You can see similarities in a lot of things across FromSoft's games, and that kinda makes you appreciate the subsequent things even more.

@isaacbruner65

3 ай бұрын

Yes, imo Lady Maria had an influence on Elden Ring in several respects. Look at the seppuku ash of war. She does something like that in a phase transition doesn't she? Also, Bloodhound's step is one of her moves.

Great analysis. Thanks.

I am also surprised to find out that Tomoe and lord Takeru share so many things in common with Malenia and Miquella. Tomoe and Malenia have both spread rot, both carrying a dance-like fighting style (waterfowl dance and spiral cloud passage), and willing to do everything to serve their lords/brother. Meanwhile Takeru (Former divine heir) and Miquella are both forever young and both desperately looking for ways to cure their dearest companion's rot and their own curses. They have so many things in common that I don't think it's coincidence.

imagine being a goty but not getting a dlc, while your brother also being a GOTY and gets a DLC

thank you for this!!!!

2:25 omg isshin and his adopted grandkids practicing ichimonji is adorable

you always pick my favorite tracks from botw ❤

tomoe's animations/assets have not been used in elden ring, so we are going to get the dlc for sekiro, thanks

@DeadpoolX9

3 ай бұрын

DLC coming out like 5 years later is the most Sekiro thing I have ever heard

This video provides no concrete answer one way or another. It does, however, find even more ways to make me love the attention to detail between both of these games.

I personally find that one of Tomoe's techniques, Spiral Cloud Passage, to be very similar to waterfowl. Both attacks involve successive sword slashes that release shockwaves, and Geni even uses a "lesser" version of it (his flurry attack) Maybe waterfowl and SCP could be this link between Malenia and Sekiro?

Oh my god I just realized the way she jumps and is suspended in the air before the waterfowl could likely have been when Tomoe uses a lightning attack. It's quite similar in timing and style to how characters such as Isshin and the Okami Warriors in Fountainhead Palace use lightning and of course she would need to be mid air to do so.

Will you cover the giant sky temple ruins in limgrave? Read the ruin fragment description. Try to see if you can take the models out of the ground and put them together. I sadly cannot but I'm sure you can. :)

@ultraphoenix95

3 ай бұрын

They come from Farum Azula

@Anton2046gfkn

3 ай бұрын

@@ultraphoenix95 Farum Azula is very far away though on the world map. Is it confirmed?

@Birbucifer

3 ай бұрын

@@Anton2046gfkn Well they're the exact same assets, and the ruin fragment lore blurb kinda confirms that they're from Farum Azula. But a video showcasing the ruins put together would still be really cool

@GoodName111

3 ай бұрын

@@Anton2046gfkn Yes, they come from Faruk Azula, you can also look at the carvings on them to see that they are the same. AlsoFarum Azula exists outside of the time in the rest of the Lands Between, as such it is implied to having always been crumbling.

@Ulqui_210

3 ай бұрын

Not explicitly no, but keep in mind that a Beastman of Farum Azula managed to set up shop in a cave within Limgrave despite its distance from Eastern Caelid.

While I see the similarities and where some of her moveset could be countered with Sekiro’s mobility mechanics, a lot of that could be said about even Dark Souls 3 bosses. Its the same with people saying Demon of Hatred is a Dark Souls boss but then touting Guardian Ape as one of Sekiro’s peaks. Its bizarre and doesn’t seem to get that across the Bloodborne, Sekiro, Souls, and Elden Ring, Fromsoftware have a pretty consistent language in regards to communicating motifs in combat and creating responsive and engaging encounters, even if the games have differences to their gameplay. Even if you don’t like Waterfowl or her fight, Malenia clearly had her model, lore, animations and fight made for this game. She wasn’t a last minute asset rip slapped together with a new model to increase the roster of bosses last minute, and therefore was developed with the combat of Elden Ring in mind. Wether you believe that she’s overtuned or that her breaking of certain rules is unfair is another matter. What is more likely than asset repurpose is that the dev team took inspiration from Sekiro’s visual design as the two games’s development cycles almost overlapped. Miyazaki has stated before that he enjoys putting bits of Japanese culture in the normally aesthetically western games Fromsoftware creates and with Sekiro they dove deeper into the Japanese aesthetic. When applying that same cultural inspiration to Elden Ring, they also might imported the same visual language Sekiro used to convey parts Japanese culture like swordsmanship, therefore creating a Japan-inspired boss that has a similar visual language to her attacks as the bosses of Sekiro.

@simonealcazar816

3 ай бұрын

No! No! You can’t talk about this logically. You must continue to spread lies to feed their copium!

beautiful music, great video

Tomoe and sekiro were supossed to be very similar. Like the common "the story repeats itself" thing that fs loves So the fact that malenia have a prosthetic, is protecting a young boy, having connections with flowers/blossoms (the everblossom thingies) and is unintentionally cursing those around her with a "rot" makes me wonder if she was inspired/based on tomoe's unused lore material The waterfowl dance being a... dance (tomoe is said to dancelike fightstyle) and the fact that sekiro can get a skill that is almost identical to it is interesting too When i talk about this theory a lot of people say "she would be too easy in sekiro" or "she doesnt fit sekiro design" and bruh We're not saying that she's literally tomoe copy and pasted onto ER If she was lady tomoe at some point, she was probably in a very early development state. And her design and lore would've been 99% changed besides the possible inspired or referenced details It's not a "i'm certain of it" theory. Is more like "i think there's a chance of being the case and that's cool" theory yk

I think at the very least, Tomoe's concept, of a brilliant swordswoman, and her deep affection towards her young "master", carried onto ER's Malenia and Miquella.

@Oracle_Orhyn

3 ай бұрын

Or, could be the opposite. We know both games were developing alongside each other, and with GRRM having wrote the major relationships of characters, we will never know which one influenced the other. So I just assumed both were as equally influential as the other

I'm so scared of her

@n8doggy733

3 ай бұрын

me too. but Tiche aint, thank god ❤

It's a fine line between insane and genius. Great vid.

This is so cool I think honestly my favorite part was comparing sekiros characters to each other. I’d love a more in depth break down on that (if there’s more to be seen of course). I always knew they used the same big flashy things like combat arts or owls shinobi tools but seeing how owl even mirrors wolfs light attack string is so sick. I also just love seeing any appreciation for sekiro in 2024 I adore that game. Great video as always, really impressive use of mod tools.

Would have been interesting to see Malenia's moves compared to the Okami, seeing how Tomoe was an Okami herself. I always thought part of the conspiracy stemmed from how the proto-waterfowl dance has her moving similar to the Okami warriors, doing these gentle little hops on one foot, spinning around and having this overall "floaty" feel to it. And of course, how the final waterfowl dance resembles Spiral Cloud Passage, which was probably Tomoe's technique.

The waterfowl dance always reminded me of Genichiro's flurry attack

Really neat how the search for cut Sekiro content lead to amazing Sekiro details right under our noses. Something poetic about that.

Great video, thanks!

I think Malenia definitely has the same kick animation as the interior ministry shadows though

@sunbleachedangel

3 ай бұрын

and Imps have the same animations as those gremlin things from DS3, so what?

@specialnewb9821

3 ай бұрын

From's been reusing animations for years and years

@eriknorman1690

3 ай бұрын

Not to mention the crabs aren’t even retextured from DS3

@garurumon1203

3 ай бұрын

Is... a simple kick xD

@jewelaloo7831

3 ай бұрын

@@eriknorman1690 this is a lie, they are lol. its like the only thing they changed about them, the crabs in ds3 look like rocks and the crabs in ER actually look like crabs.

now I want to fight Malenia in Sekiro. Imagine parrying that waterfowl dance~

@asabovesobelow1362

3 ай бұрын

It's already up on youtube.

@kurgo_

3 ай бұрын

You can do it with the land of reeds mod. You can also fight bloodborne bosses within said mod.

Love how Emma's left hand moves after her Ichimonji, never noticed that before

Sekiro is my favorite game ever, or so I say, and in all my playthroughs and all the lore videos I've seen I've never noticed or was told about the student/teacher style parallel. Feels amazing to learn something new about Sekiro, and to be surprised by the depth and ingenuity of your analysis even after all this time.

Completely missed out on the part on how Malenia's cut waterfowl has the same hopping movement as the Okami in Fountainhead Palace where Tomoe resided.

@simonealcazar816

3 ай бұрын

It isn’t though….

@ShuraTheSoulEater

2 ай бұрын

@@simonealcazar816 It is though

@simonealcazar816

2 ай бұрын

@@ShuraTheSoulEater It’s not. Sorry.

One aspect that wasn't talked about in this video is Malenias waterfowl dance vs Tomoes spiral cloud passage. They are visually very similar, down to the vfx

@wraithwrecker_

3 ай бұрын

Importantly, the version of Malenia's waterfowl dance to which you refer isn't the version that appears in game; it's cut content.

I don't know why, but the lightning being audible at the end is really satisfying

Think this theory rose from the spiral cloud passage skill from Sekiro feeling conceptually very similar to Malenia's waterfowl moves, along with her unused waterfowl feeling more... oriental? If that's the right word. Personally more than anything else, when I fight Malenia the flow of the fight feels like I'd have much better time playing as Wolf than my Elden Ring character. Waterfowl feels like it was meant to be parried like you do Genichiro's cloud passage, which is what gave/gives me the impression her moveset finds it origins in Sekiro.

@spartanscv

3 ай бұрын

Waterfowl attacks are way slower than even the most basic Sekiro enemy

@twistedgwazi5727

3 ай бұрын

waterfowl was definitely built for elden ring mechanics and not for sekiro. the first flurry is meant to be outspaced, the second is meant to be i-framed, and the third is intended to fly directly over and past you when you roll towards it, and to stay right on you when you dodge backwards. those specific strategies are super clean and effective when theyre executed properly, just very tight, which would not be the case if it was supposed to be deflected.

I think people get fixated on side characters in From games way too easily. Velka, Tomoe, the Gloam Eyed Queen, probably more. Its like focusing on the hole instead of the donut.

@rafsandomierz5313

2 ай бұрын

Still wondering why nobody focuser so much on Stormveils king that Godfrey defeated.

@thehungrylittlenihilist

2 ай бұрын

@@rafsandomierz5313 was it not the storm hawk ghost we give to Nepheli?

i would assume the connection is drawn from the similarity between spiral cloud passage and waterfowl dance, spiral cloud passage being a skill devised by lady tomoe. regardless, she has plenty of other moves reminiscent of sekiro skills that have nothing to do with tomoe, which just seem to be moves wolf is capable of using

Personally I think that Malenia was designed for Elden Ring, but her prosthetic took some leftover ideas from Sekiro. Something about her arm seems much more intricate than most other things in the Lands Between, I could definitely see someone with an arm like that in Sekiro though. Maybe not gold however

I'd say the closest is that unused Waterfowl Dance, which looks like Genichiro's floaty combo attack

@simonealcazar816

3 ай бұрын

The animations aren’t the same, like at all.

Maybe Malenia just went to Raya Lucaria to respec her character from archer to sword fighter.

Kakariko village music goes hard

Malenia's Waterfowl Dance and Genichiro's Spiral Cloud Passage attack seem pretty similar. So if Malenia has remnants of Sekiro's design for Tomoe after all, then it wouldn't be that surprising to be honest.

I'd just like to mention that if you attack Malenia when she doesn't have any hyper-armour, she folds over in pain very similarly to most enemies and human bosses in Sekiro.

@CannonClasher55

2 ай бұрын

@@ViviRavan Ah, I didn't know that.

0:28 if I were Wolf I would be feeling some things.

I was hoping you could bring up the curved swords' moveset as it is presumed to be Malenia's mentor's fight style. And the fact that they're not really the same as her unique katana moveset even though they're also master and student.

I don’t know if this is anything of note but Malenia did have a mentor, the blind swordsman who seems to be based off of a traditional warrior. She adopted the waterfowl dance from him and his fighting style so it appears there’s a connection there. Not directly from Sekiro but at least inspired by it.

Poor Sekiro Fans Lacking a PROPER DLC, I get the malenia conspiracy Her Clear Swipes and relentless attacks for parrying the long Thrust for mikiri counters The Waterfow Dance being literaly just Spiral Cloud Passage The Kick To Break Posture it's All Perfect

@TREVORVADER

3 ай бұрын

Yeah I don’t get how people dismiss it so easily

@simonealcazar816

3 ай бұрын

@@TREVORVADER Because there is literally no evidence of her being a cut Tomoe bosses outside of “ShE HaS KaTanA, ShE Do FaSt sLaSH aTtAckS, ShE SeKiRo.” It’s BS. Just accept it. Could there have inspirations, of course! You literally has a version of Mist Raven with Raven Mist. Despite ER being developed first, Sekiro and ER were developed at the same time. Just like AC6. AC6 has similar red lightning that acts exactly like the Ancient Dragon lightning. That’s it.

@esa8871

3 ай бұрын

Also she has that one slow jumping slash that look a lot like lightning of tomoe attack just without the lightning.

That stupid kick she has is absolutely a Sekiro move, first time I fought her I instantly saw that xD and waterfowl reminds me of those water art slashes you can learn from Carps in sekiro xD

@wraithwrecker_

3 ай бұрын

Fromsoft has had kicking enemies before Sekiro. I replayed Sekiro recently and I don't remember encountering any enemies whose kick attack resembled Malenia's.

@eglewether5523

3 ай бұрын

@@wraithwrecker_One of the kungfu arts you can learn, I didnt use them much but that weird knee turn around kick or whatever you call it ... dont take it too seriously, its more of a joke xD

@simonealcazar816

3 ай бұрын

@@eglewether5523 Very difficult to take that as a joke when people unironically use that as proof

Wonderfully conceptualized.

I was under the impression that the body Sekiro prays to before the Divine Dragon fight was Tomoe, but i could be wrong

@shadowfire04

3 ай бұрын

as far as i understand, tomoe never made it to fountainhead palace because she couldn't get the mortal blade and so couldn't complete the incense. i think it's just supposed to be a random shrine maiden like in a lot of fromsoft games.

@yellowsaurus4895

3 ай бұрын

I always thought this was the case too. Tomoe was rumored to be an Okami, so her returning to the fountainhead to die among her own kind would make sense. And the fact that we fight the divine dragon specifically using lightning reversal is supposed to be another hint, i think.

@yellowsaurus4895

3 ай бұрын

​@@shadowfire04 I'll have to brush up on my tomoe lore, cause i think you're actually right about her not making it to the fountainhead, but I'd also be surprised if it was just a random shrine maiden. The fact that the corpse is so clearly part of the setpiece where we find her suggests that she's meant to be an important figure, imo. It would be so weird of From to put her front-and-center like that, at the entrance to (arguably) the most important fight in the game, if she really was just some rando lol.

@partydeer1640

3 ай бұрын

@@yellowsaurus4895 takeru (or a previous divine heir, I don't remember) made it to the Fountainhead Palace in some way. So the body is either someone random, Takeru, or Tomoe. Maybe a slight plothole since we know Tomoe didn't possess the mortal blade, but idk

If malenia isn’t built out of unused parts of sekiro that makes her being the way she is even more infuriating

@TREVORVADER

3 ай бұрын

Yeah because if she was made from Sekiro parts there’s an excuse. Built from scratch it means they purposely built her to break the rules of the game. Which is a very bad precedent to set for Fromsoft going forward because one of the main things going for them over other similar things like Nioh for example was the lack of essentially artificial difficulty.

@shinyhydreigon7257

3 ай бұрын

@@TREVORVADER skill issue buddy

@TREVORVADER

3 ай бұрын

@@shinyhydreigon7257 typical rebuttal for anytime anyone has criticism. I’ve her beat her many times. Doesn’t mean I have to think she’s good.

@shinyhydreigon7257

3 ай бұрын

@@TREVORVADER Can you point me in the direction of the Fromsoftware Souls games rulebook? Regurgitating shit opinions isnt a critiscism.

@simonealcazar816

3 ай бұрын

@@TREVORVADER Doesn’t breaks the “””””””””rules”””””””””buddy. Keep dreaming.

Awesome details about Sekiro

Very sad you didn't mention her attack patterns during waterfowl. The way she swings the swords, creating multiple air attacks simultaneously while jumping around and seemingly balancing herself on one foot while doing so, was straight out of how the creatures fought in Fountainhead Palace, and there's the combat art "Spiral Cloud Passage" which does that too. Not saying I 100% believe the theory, but if I were to argue in favor of it, I would certainly mention it, perhaps even make one of this comparisons to see if they are actually that similar. Just a tought.

also, while malenia is very fast and aggressive, if you try to fight her using sekiro's mechanics, she's actually a lot easier than most sekiro bosses

@tyomega9939

3 ай бұрын

Exactly. She’s designed at Elden Ring’s pace, she’s just the fastest boss within ER. All the talk about how easy she is if you port her into sekiro falls flat because she simply wasn’t designed for sekiro

@Tulip_bip

3 ай бұрын

@@tyomega9939 i mean that's the thing, people say she's like a sekiro boss because she's so aggressive, but she doesn't fit in nearly as well as people think she does

@Kek393

3 ай бұрын

She was nerfed multiple times in development from what I understand

I think just like how the demon of hatred was created as an homage to manus from dark souls 1 and plays exactly like a dark souls boss, requiring mostly dodging and timing for attacks instead of parrying and breaking his guard, Malenia is also an homage to sekiro bosses without the parrying. Both are the hardest bosses in their respective games and both are homages to other games.