I really like the message in this one. The bad sandbox begs you to look at everything it has, and the good sandbox has you desperate to see what's there

@jmlkinc

2 жыл бұрын

That's a really good way to put it.

@starmaker75

2 жыл бұрын

Good sandbox go: hey if wanted to play linear, that fine, but I recommend you explore, but hey played what you wanted to play. Bad sandbox games: hey hey, play all these sidequest before you can progress. Looks at these graphic that we whip our developers to make it look pretty. Isn’t this sandbox great, great I’m right. You have to explore it or else.

@MrRenanHappy

2 жыл бұрын

At this point, maybe Ubisoft would benefit from making a more linear experience instead of doing an open world "sandbox" game

@HansMaximum

2 жыл бұрын

The golf course analogy is really well thought out too.

@FrabascooSauce

2 жыл бұрын

@@MrRenanHappy some quality linear story like PoP: Sands of Time. Crazy that pre 2010 ubisoft could have you glued to the screen like that

Your example of an open world being more like a golf course was spot on. That really makes it easier to explain to others and also helped my understanding of how current “open world” games really behave.

@sluttyMapleSyrup

2 жыл бұрын

Jim Stephanie Sterling also had a good line, ""Open-world" is a setting not a genre"

@eliju420

2 жыл бұрын

It's a great metaphor and really puts into words why I don't like a lot of open world games, but couldn't really explain why. It's not really open world if everywhere you explore is a dead end unless you have an item or did hit a plot point yet or something.

@nickrustyson8124

2 жыл бұрын

His examples though, not great, GTA is the best example of a Golf Course you can get

@-jobrocodwawz-6226

Жыл бұрын

@@nickrustyson8124 yeahhhh but it's a golf course where between each hole you can go on a killing spree with all the new toys you got

@chrisdaughen5257

Жыл бұрын

Yeah. But aside from linearity, the approach makes players feel obligated to spend hours clearing up the nearby golf balls/ side quests around the course before getting into the cart and moving to the next hole.

I am a real open world game addict, but when I booted up elden rings map I realized how often I had to strain my eyes in other games, and after just a few hours I was realizing I was using landmarks, LANDMARKS to navigate the world instead of yellow blips, what a novel concept.

@lukecariaga917

2 жыл бұрын

I think this is actually a key point Yahtzee overlooked. The success of these less-handholdy open worlds is dependent on thoughtful environment design. BOTW and Elden Ring don’t need to rely on a bajillion map icons because players organically discover content via strategic sight lines. Both games make clever use of verticality in their worlds to ensure there’s always points of interest in view to draw players’ attention. By contrast, if you simply removed the map icons most open world games like Watch Dogs: Legion or Cyberpunk 2077, they wouldn’t necessarily be improved because their worlds weren’t designed to be played “blind”. The only open world I can think of which could still work after the gutting the map icons is Ghost of Tsushima, thanks to its hills, towers, and plumes of smoke. I also think Red Dead 2 hit a great balance in its map system. The world may be too sprawling to eschew maps and quest pathing completely, but there’s tons of side content to organically discover that the map alone never even hints at.

@razagan1343

2 жыл бұрын

@@lukecariaga917 very well said, thank you for this

@erickchristensen746

2 жыл бұрын

@@lukecariaga917 A giant word-pile of goodness you posted.

@sharpfang

2 жыл бұрын

@@lukecariaga917 I think Cyberpunk would do pretty well if you had to find terminals with maps, or printed maps on buildings, metro maps on the metro and so on. Not that it would really fit a setting - whatever you say, using GPS map in your phone to make your way through a city is one of the few things that originated in the Cyberpunk genre and became our daily reality, so removing it from CP77 would feel weird, but the gameplay wouldn't lose out.

@pramitpratimdas8198

2 жыл бұрын

@@sharpfang i don't think botw or ER's approach would work with Cyberpunk since its much harder to navigate a city without a map. You also can't put mountains or huge trees in the middle of the city visible from everywhere

General Radhan and Malenia were both CENTRAL to the marketing yet they are COMPLETELY optional bosses which I respect.

@The27Spartan

2 жыл бұрын

And they'll both tear you to pieces.

@JayCross454

2 жыл бұрын

Ahh, my boy, Radhan...hold this army of phantoms for me, please.

@sogen7967

2 жыл бұрын

radhan is optional?

@wiener_process

2 жыл бұрын

@@sogen7967 Well, as far as I know, you only have to beat two of the shardbearers before going to Leyndell, you can choose which ones, but for most players it's going to be Godrick and Rennala. This means you can complete the game without even setting foot in Caelid.

@sogen7967

2 жыл бұрын

@@wiener_process I had no idea that's crazy

In game design courses taught in recent times, students are taught that if a mechanic, level or even side quest is missed, than that is poor game design and should be fixed. You hit the nail right on the head as to what the issue is here.

@SolaScientia

2 жыл бұрын

They're really trying to appeal to the 100% completionist people, aren't they? I've got too many games I want to play or am in the middle of playing to worry about doing every single thing in a game or playing it multiple times for all the endings. Only my absolute favorites get revisited enough to let me unlock all the endings or do every possible thing in the game. That said, the achievements based on getting a certain number of kills with a certain weapon or whatever rarely get my attention because I figure out what weapons and styles work for me and I ignore the weapons I don't like.

@sluttyMapleSyrup

2 жыл бұрын

@@SolaScientia Yeah if I manage to 100% a game, it's because the game was so enjoyable I *wanted* to spend time finding all its secrets, not because I had a checklist of things to find or do. I collect all the weapons and spells in the Souls games (and will for Elden Ring too) because they're all neat and all have either unique lore entries, looks, stats, or weapon arts attached to them, not simply because there's an achievement for doing so.

@SolaScientia

2 жыл бұрын

@@sluttyMapleSyrup Exactly. I'm honestly not likely to platinum any Soulsborne game partly because of difficulty and partly because of wanting to play other games, but I enjoy the challenge and I'm grabbing everything as I go. I love Bloodborne, but I'm not likely to platinum it thanks to the damned chalice dungeons. I've 100%-ed 2 games: Bugsnax, because it was fun, easy to do, and I love that little acid trip of a game. Astro's Playroom, because it's fun as well and still a go-to game for when I just want to chill and play a game with no consequences for screwing up. I haven't gotten the platinum for the network speedrun bit because it requires a total speedrun time of under 7 minutes and I'm rather trash at platforming with a time pressure. I love the fun in Ratchet & Clank, but most of the achievements require specific weapons and I stick to using the same 2-3 the whole time because the others are basically useless.

@Reifgar

2 жыл бұрын

@@SolaScientia Platinuming Bloodborne isn't that tough, and I'd be more than happy to help you through the dungeons.

@SolaScientia

2 жыл бұрын

@@Reifgar Thanks! Except that I'm playing it offline. No PS+ account and no real need for one since I don't play any games that require it (no multiplayer games and the like). I dabbled a little in the first dungeon after the Blood-Starved Beast, but I felt way underleveled. I could have a go now and probably have a much easier time. I know one dungeon has a bunch of chime maidens who spawn a shit ton of spiders. There's also one that halves the health bar that I'm not looking forward to messing around in.

The other problem with "golf course" open worlds, is that I'm almost fearful of exploring something cool in the distance before "I'm supposed to" because it will either be a side-quest that is entered awkwardly, or a main quest that is completely barren until a specific story mission.

@Tyler-gg6xt

2 жыл бұрын

Really? I usually run into cool gear at my level... that I swiftly realize I actually wanted to get later because it's useless when I need it precisely because I was exploring. Why am I simultaneously rewarded and punished for exploring? It kills the desire to explore

@E1craZ4life

2 жыл бұрын

I mean, I suppose it depends on if you have an underlying mission throughout the game or if there’s a specific end goal for the game as a whole. The difference is that the former allows you to create your own end goals, while the latter requires you to figure out how to achieve this one specific task.

@AfferbeckBeats

2 жыл бұрын

So many games give you that "I'm not supposed to be here yet" feeling when you happen upon a place that is obviously a set piece for something later in the game. Elden Ring instead makes you think "oh shit I really shouldn't be here yet"

@XaadeTheBlade

2 жыл бұрын

Or the GAME BREAKS...

@XaadeTheBlade

2 жыл бұрын

@@AfferbeckBeats No. Elden ring makes you feel like "I might be able to do this, if I'm perfect and make no mistakes". Other games literally throw up invisible walls or crumble into piles of forever soft-locked game saves.

FromSoft games have one other thing in their favour: they trust the community to talk about and share their discoveries. So yes, not everyone will find this super awesome dungeon in the north, but more people are engaged and talking to each other about what they find than if it was just plastered on a map.

@eragon78

2 жыл бұрын

Community comments are also a CORE part of the game even for a solo player too because if you're online, you can see other people's messages on the ground telling you hints about things (or lying). So it helps in that way too. There are plenty of times i go into an area and find a secret that I never would have found on my own because of a sign on the ground helping me to find the way. So the game actively encourages exploring and reading signs other players leave with helps with engagement.

@hollandscottthomas

2 жыл бұрын

This is the first FromSoft I’ve gotten to play at launch since DS2, and it’s crazy how much I missed the way the community cobbles together all its tips and tricks in the first few weeks. It’s a super underrated part of the experience.

@VanillaSnowGolem

2 жыл бұрын

.

@SketchyJohnny

2 жыл бұрын

@@eragon78 I had this super cool experience where I hit a locked door and saw a message that said something like "try heading west" and when I did I found the key being guarded by a dragon. That was infinitely more interesting than mindlessly running to a quest maker.

@raskbell

2 жыл бұрын

@@eragon78 Personally hate the mechanic. I've been playing offline and enjoying not having them. Watchings videos of others littered with ghost players all over the place looks terrible. Sure you may miss a secret or ten, but thats part of the challenge no? Reminds me of death stranding that also had this mechanic. Some placements were super helpful, but most were spammy/trolling/or straight up spoiling the game/challenge.

he has so much to say about this game he immediately followed up with an extra punctuation 1 day after the review lol

@meapickle

2 жыл бұрын

Sorry to say it, but his review came out on the escapist site last week so really he had a week to make this vid

@Aelesis

2 жыл бұрын

@@meapickle so did this extra punctuation, though. 😂

@meapickle

2 жыл бұрын

@@Aelesis now that I think about it, don't I look like an idiot 😝

@desorn146

2 жыл бұрын

I think you are missing the point. Elden ring is not the subject of the video because he has much to say about it, it simply is the most recent highly marketed open-world.

@kurtisdeakin

2 жыл бұрын

@@desorn146 THANK YOU!! Ironic op doesn't realize he's the subject lol

A decent way to tell the quality of open world is to compare the initial impression of different people, if they all did the same and experienced the same, it's just a golf course, but if they tell interesting stories about stuff that the others didn't found, then it is really open.

@Nanook128

2 жыл бұрын

@@sleepykhajiit1875 a decent way =\= the best way

@Vethorm

2 жыл бұрын

@@sleepykhajiit1875 by that logic skyrim has a quality open world, which I believe it has. It is not the best game ever

@ForeverMasterless

2 жыл бұрын

@@sleepykhajiit1875 Skyrim has a great world and approach to open world design. The issue is the mediocre combat, quest design, dungeon design, and terrible dialogue.

@harveytheham6002

2 жыл бұрын

@@sleepykhajiit1875 hmm I'm not sure about that. What % of players do you think would tell you "after I left Helgen, I traveled to the next town to the north where I encountered a shopkeeper asking about his golden claw. Went to Bleak Falls Barrow and discovered a word wall. Then went to Whiterun"? Or maybe went to whiterun first if they didn't encounter the shopkeeper. I would say it's probably a really high percentage of players followed that initial storyline. Whether they veered from the main quest at that point or not is up for debate. I should add though that I don't think it had a bad open world design, I thought it was actually pretty good. But definitely could see the rail-roading.

@chukyuniqul

2 жыл бұрын

Honestly I'm just glad elden ring let me have the fight on horseback against sentreenel. It was probably one of the most exhilarating experiences I've had in recent times.

Definitely something I noticed way back when Breath of the Wild first came out. Ever since then I really haven't played many games with icons everywhere. It's so much more fun to just explore, see something in the distance, then go and explore it rather than be following quest markers every second of the game.

@charliericker274

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah, I had that feeling with Witcher 3 a lot. Beautiful world, that I ended up simply speeding through to get to the next objective because that big open world didn't offer much in the way of exploration. To be clear, I loved that game for it's story and gameplay, I just wished there was a bit more to do outside of your questlog.

@azzzanadra

2 жыл бұрын

that's why i played through assassin's creed 1 without the GPS and doing my best not to open the map. the game is designed to be played that way.

@VanillaSnowGolem

2 жыл бұрын

.

@anagoth9

2 жыл бұрын

BotW and Elden Ring also have a lot fewer "quests" compared to a lot of open world games. The games are centered around the exploration first and foremost, not around the tasks/challenges the game gives you to complete. In either case, games should make better use of an in-game journal mechanic. On the one hand, you have games like Skyrim that give you just the barest blurb of a quest description but it's largely irrelevant since you can ignore all of the lore and story significance and just bee-line to the quest marker. Elden Ring has the opposite problem where NPC questlines can be VERY obscure and hinge on cryptic dialog that you'll hear once and then never again because the NPC moved to god knows where. It would be a major QoL improvement just to have some way to review dialog in-game rather than having to manually write down every word that every NPC says just in case it becomes important several hours down the line, because the alternative is having to look up the wikis which ends up spoiling a lot.

I like how the "story" in elden ring has zero urgency. I can take my time exploring and enjoying the world and side quests and not have a cyberpunk situation where the game is like, "oooh you're dying oh no better hurry, we're gonna annoy you about it but not have it affect gameplay in any way".

@RaxusXeronos

2 жыл бұрын

Fromsoft's Souls games and Souls-like games usually have that whole 'the world is fucked up one way or another with or without you' vibe. Really lends itself well to an open world. You're not in a hurry. You're actively encouraged NOT to rush.

@charliericker274

2 жыл бұрын

Don't worry to much about it, go kill some beasts... it's for your own good after all.

@hihihi1q23

2 жыл бұрын

Unfortunately, if you explore too much the game punishes you and you end up missing out on side quests.

@samjabbari9537

2 жыл бұрын

It was incredibly immersion breaking how in Cyberpunk characters would wait for a week in front of doors for you to go through them. Outward is a game that handles urgency pretty well. The story is about rising tensions between different parties and you have to try and deescelate the situation so that the conflict doesn't turn into a war. Generally, you can explore how much you want and waste time but when you accept a main quest, the game makes it clear that you cannot fuck around. If you waste too much time while doing a main quest, you can fail and have your city being blown into pieces and lose all the stuff you have bunkered there. By the end of each main quest you did a bit of deescelation, which gives breathing room so you can continue exploring.

@TheOneBearded

2 жыл бұрын

@@hihihi1q23 How so? I can't recall anyone so far that you can miss out. I'm in the snowy mountains right now.

Being allowed to miss out on things is what led to my experience in Elden Ring where, almost 60 hours of playtime in, i discovered there is a whole-ass map toggle dedicated to underground areas because that was how long I'd been playing before I found one of those areas. An entirely separate layer of the world just appeared. Nearly SIXTY hours into the game. If it had been a western developed game I'd have expected to be tutorialized in underground exploration before hitting up the first major castle area. Blew my mind.

@caindis-abel-dhisbrother9601

2 жыл бұрын

oh boy, it gets bigger.

@kentonbaird1723

2 жыл бұрын

Wait.... You can toggle between them?

@caindis-abel-dhisbrother9601

2 жыл бұрын

@@kentonbaird1723 yup

@kentonbaird1723

2 жыл бұрын

@@caindis-abel-dhisbrother9601 .....this game has too many weird little mysteries.... Did you know you can stab a weak spot on top of those fire breathing tank things? I accidentally learned this today.

@caindis-abel-dhisbrother9601

2 жыл бұрын

@@kentonbaird1723 yea. there's a note that mentions that though. you know, the clues you can buy at merchants hehe. never tried to jump attack though, just backstab the fuckers.

One of the keepsake items you can start with in Elden Ring is a pair of keys you can use on a statue before you enter the open world. It leads to a dungeon that should definitely NOT be attempted by a starting character where there's loads of things that can brutally murder you with ease. But if you're skilled, smart and lucky you can complete the are and get some nice stuff out of it. Because that's the kind of game Elden Ring is: it lets you try and fight way above your weight class if you want to (and it's a bit of a troll by not telling you in advance), but if you have the right stuff you can walk away with some sweet loot if you know what you're doing. It's how I got one of the most powerful talismans in the game pretty early on.

@FloridaGoth

2 жыл бұрын

If you're talking about that dragon tree worm guarded by that asshole shredder statue thsn i hate my life and everything about that area lol

@LuisSoto-fw3if

2 жыл бұрын

Fuck! I forgot about that gate! I think I havent gotten the key yet :(

@FloridaGoth

2 жыл бұрын

@@LuisSoto-fw3if getting to the boss door is a horrible experience. Make sure you fully trust your characters hp or ability because that dang boss is as frustrating as it was to get to him

@timmyman9677

2 жыл бұрын

It's not the only troll at the beginning of the game.

@GuidingOlive

2 жыл бұрын

@@LuisSoto-fw3if It's just a stonesword key, you get plenty as you explore around. Even some merchants sell them. But yes, that area is a giant bag of dicks that will kill you if you're not ready for it.

Yahtzee is understandably bringing up his baby lately, he is becoming such a dad. I think most of us are happy for him and a bit sad that time does not stand still.

@flaco3462

2 жыл бұрын

I wonder when he'll gain the curse of Kane & Lynch dad bod.

@VanessaMagick

2 жыл бұрын

Just extremely disappointed he isn't gay.

@satan1841

2 жыл бұрын

@@VanessaMagick I am personally shocked lmao

@hnglbanana

2 жыл бұрын

took me a few tries to realise you were talking about his Literal Child and not 'the latest from software title'

@Shizkeb

2 жыл бұрын

@@VanessaMagick good

One thing I really love about Elden Ring is that does have interesting stuff shown on the map, but as part of the actual map art instead of icons. If there's a building or a cave or a notable landmark there will almost always be something interesting there (and it shows you where to find maps if you're close enough to the map point, a clever way of encouraging venturing into the unknown without making you find a needle in a haystack). And NPCs will give directions based on the map instead of just having an icon pop up. I think in over 60 hours of play so far I've had only one NPC actually mark an icon on the map. It might be nice if the game let you look back at dialogue instead of having to remember it or write it down, but having to chart out a route on the map makes it feel more like actual exploration. So it's not perfect by any means, but it's been a long time since any game I've played has given me this sense of wonder and adventure.

@Ch4pp13

2 жыл бұрын

I talked to an NPC that wanted me to retake a Fort, said it was to the south just past some woods. I crossed a bridge, found a wounded lady saying the Castle had been overrun by its lower class and everyone is either dead, or will be soon. Personally, I connected the dots. Cleared the Castle, fought a boss, returned to the first guy. No, that was something completely different and I did it just because I thought it'd progress that storyline. It was amazing.

@Crosshill

2 жыл бұрын

imagine if the elden ring map didnt show your location and you had to make do with a compass and triangulating notable landmarks from the map to determine where you were, i'd love to get slapped in the nuts like that cause heck knows im blind and lost and eternally confused

@zensoredparagonbytes3985

2 жыл бұрын

@@Crosshill try outward

Saints Row 2 is another example of a great sandbox because there’s tons of stuff for you to find and discover that aren’t related to the main missions or side games. Once I stood staring for five minutes as two cops chased down a guy in the suburban area near Aisha’s house and watched as he climbed fences and ran through yards until the cops caught up and beat him to death before going on their merry way.

@SymbioteMullet

2 жыл бұрын

Coincidentally another game Yhatzee really likes...

@theexecutioner5244

2 жыл бұрын

God I love Saints Row 2

@TroublesomeOwl

2 жыл бұрын

I love SR2, however it had some really bad design elements in the sandbox . the "you need more respect to do this mission, so drive another truck around shoot shit at some more buildings for a while THEN we will let you do what you wanted to do"

@pokemonmanic3595

2 жыл бұрын

@@TroublesomeOwl that’s true but this is talking more about the open world design than the mission set up. Plus there was enough variety of mini games you could just stick to your favorites and grind respect

@nickrustyson8124

2 жыл бұрын

Saints Row 1 also does the same thing, and I hope the new one does this too

At this point I’m starting to say there’s a difference between ‘sandbox’ and ‘open world’

I feel like a lot of the reactions really reflect in what they like about the game; the exploration and how it's so much bigger than everyone thought. Miyazaki never stood there boasting about how many square metres the sandbox is; they took their time working on it, showing things whenever they were ready, and didn't say that it was gonna be the biggest bestest thing ever. Everyone was excited because it was gonna be the next FromSoft title and they had proven themselves, not because Keanu Reeves told everyone to get excited.

@vertclecintron7015

2 жыл бұрын

Not only did they not crow about the size in marketing, they also sort of lie about it during the game. The 'full' darkened map you see at the start is massive... but it actually grows even larger over time and doesn't reflect the hidden second map.

@shreksmeatballs9435

2 жыл бұрын

@@trequor *Potential spoiler about Caelid, Royal Capital, and the Mountaintops area. * Same here. In a similar way, I accidentally opened the teleporter chest in the Dragon Burnt Ruins in Limgrave and got teleported to that crystal tunnel in Caelid. I looked at my map and saw that I was SO FAR northeast, I thought that was the end of the map, the northern eastern end at least. Oh boy, was I wrong.... Later I got teleported to Leyndell from the Weeping Peninsula and it was literally MILES north from Caelid. Then I looked at the skyline and saw that there was a HUGE mountain the east of that with a Cauldron ( which is a "Forge" as we see later in the game ). Uncovering the scale of the map was absolutely jaw-dropping.

@trblemayker5157

Жыл бұрын

Its just another open world game with the map markers turned off. How exciting.

This essay reminds me of why I love Skyrim. Once you escape Helgen, you can go anywhere you’d like. Go join the Thieves Guild, defeat all the Dragon Priests, get married, build a house, on and on, and THEN you can go talk to Alvor in Riverwood. While the game still has a plot that you must follow, once you’re out of the tutorial, it gives you free reign to tackle its many challenges at your own pace and in whatever order you please.

@fearedjames

2 жыл бұрын

@@trequor Skyrim suffers from it but also was smart not to show anything until you find it. So the map literally doesn't matter shit, because it is basically just a checklist of shit you already did since most the time you'll have actually completed or done something at 90%of the points.

The "golf course" thing is brilliant. I've been aching to describe older JRPGs and their big maps as something other than open world, and golf course will do nicely. Yes, the map is big and open, but you can't just explore it. You have to go from A to B to C in that order. You might eventually get an airship that opens up the world to explore, but usually it's near the end after you've seen a lot of it.

@maninblack3410

2 жыл бұрын

Right, but in the video that’s line has a major negative connotation whereas if you’re playing an older jrpg you don’t really *want* to be able to go to random locations that don’t have any plot for you yet because you haven’t done x, y, and z. In those older jrpg’s the world compliments the narrative. It’s there to give the story a larger scope, heavier stakes, a sense that the world your saving is lived in. I really think describing those worlds as golf courses would be an insult, and if that’s what you mean 🤷‍♂️ then go for it, not everybody likes them.

@danilooliveira6580

2 жыл бұрын

@@maninblack3410 I think it has a negative connotation because he was specifically talking about jiminy cockthroat open worlds and how they market themselves as trying to be a sandbox. but there isn't anything intrinsically bad with golf courses, people like golf, a lot of games follow the golf course formula in different ways and they are great.

@voraito

2 жыл бұрын

Because old school jrpgs are NOT sandboxes. They are linear stories and their overworld is closed off until you move the plot and that's not a bad thing. The end game "airship" travel is there to evoke a feeling of freedom and catharsis as you have slowly worked up to that point to basically conquer the game world piece by piece.

While Elden Ring is definetely a AAA game by budget, marketing and awareness, I almost wouldn't define it as that. Fromsoft is unique in that their president, Miyazaki, actually came from designing and directing video games, and continues to work in that capacity. Most other big companies have CEOs who come from the business world, like Ubisoft, EA, and Activision. Unsurprisingly these companies create business products calibrated to have broad appeal, rather than follow a unique vision. This makes Miyazaki basically the only auteur with AAA resources, but without AAA mindset and corporate structure.

@StrikeWarlock

2 жыл бұрын

Amusingly, the other person who shares this kind of background is Satoru Iwata.

@skeetsmcgrew3282

2 жыл бұрын

Im gonna guess you are a young guy. AAA games have only pretty recently been factories churning out trash made with corporate requirements and directed by investors. It wasnt more than a decade ago that the AAA companies made promises and delivered on them. Its been totally turned on its ear in fact. We just expect AAA to make uninspired garbage and indie to make amazing masterpieces now.

@halkon4412

2 жыл бұрын

​@@skeetsmcgrew3282 Everything feels more rote and uninspired when you're older. AAA games have always been trend-chasing and profit driven. Sure, there are certain areas of games that have gotten markedly worse, like bugs, polish, and monetization, but newer games have also improved in terms of more advanced storytelling, quality of life features, performance settings and accessibility. Either way, they've always been led by focus groups, investors, and business school grads; people are just more tolerable of the first few of them they played than the next 50.

@CaptainZark

2 жыл бұрын

I think this might be the big difference between Japanese and western developers. All the other AAA auteur company heads i can think of are Japanese (Hideo Kojima, Suda51, Satoru Iwata just to name a few) the only none Japanese dev i can think of with these kinds of resources is... David Cage... kinda shows you the dark side of this setup

@BLZ231

2 жыл бұрын

@@StrikeWarlock Didn't he die though?

Elden Ring really knows how to tease, and interest player to explore without being obnoxious about it. First thing you see when you leave the starting cave is a boss that for most new players will be impossible challenge at first. Immediately game nudges you to go off the beaten path. One after another, and you're finding interesting things in your surroundings. Few minutes later you forget about the next point in your quest, and you're in a totally optional dungeon. Hours later you are hungry to see everything. Scouring every corner of the map for secrets. New armors, weapons, spells, lore, some interesting environmental storytelling. There are so many breathtaking locations that just being there is a reward on it's own. Everything in this world feels deliberate, and interesting. Everything feels placed by hand, and with purpose. And for a game with such immense scale and density of content this is something quite special.

I've got a rule of thumb for sandboxes - it's not as much about how many icons there are, but more the amount content they point to. I tend to find that games like Horizon or Far Cry or even the Witcher 3 hold my attention less, because most of the places they tell you to go have so little to do there. You find a single chest/collectible/5-dudes-standing-there-waiting-to-be-killed in the middle of the field, do whatever is required and move on, the perceived start-to-end of the task feels so brief. Contrast with games like From Software, or Skyrim or BoTW and when you get to a place, there's normally more than one thing to do at the location. It means your brain switches gear from "follow world map" and into "explore current location" for a significant period of time, so the content feels more substantial.

@LuisSoto-fw3if

2 жыл бұрын

Going from " I need to kill this boss" to "I killed this Boss" to "I need to explore and then kill this boss" rise and repeat is great, it feels like each dungeon I enter is a new world waiting for me, and when you do find those BIG dungeons then it really makes the whole experience come nicely together!

@sluttyMapleSyrup

2 жыл бұрын

@@LuisSoto-fw3if And then you get the moments of, "I need to explore because I have no idea where *A* boss is!"

@VanillaSnowGolem

2 жыл бұрын

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@t.7124

2 жыл бұрын

Elden Ring definitely carries Skyrim's torch with how caves and dungeons are big expansive things rather than rooms. It's so crazy to me how long it's taken for game developers to realise that Skyrim works because it has expansive dungeons inside of these places with things to find, like shouts. I was so sure Cyberpunk would have gotten the memo due to how arrogant the marketing was, but going deeper into a cave which has a bandit camp, a boss and a treasure chest at the end is such an interesting thing to do when you stumble across the cave yourself. Elden Ring actually has that, where a cave would lead to boss with interesting things inside. I really want more games to take this approach, and ironically Horizon Forbidden West got kind of close

@LuisSoto-fw3if

2 жыл бұрын

@@t.7124 CP77 had lots of "dungeons", althought they were mostly tied to side quests. I remember the first time I played and one of the quests was to save a boxer or something like that, that was trapped at a gyms basement. There was so many ways you could approach the rescue! CP had it's issues but it's still a great game

The golf course analogy was perfect

I hope Yahtzee can eventually finish this one hell of a game. Hell, I'm sure most of us won't mind if you took a one week holiday from ZP to play more of that.

@GretgorPooper

2 жыл бұрын

I, for one, would even love watching a follow up review of it once he's done!

@MrMarttivainaa

2 жыл бұрын

@@bloodred255 The manga was better, the anime totally butchered Glaivemaster Hodir's character arc.

@draxxilion5957

2 жыл бұрын

@@bloodred255 The audiomanga is a good option, or one of those voiceovers on youtube.

@danilooliveira6580

2 жыл бұрын

reviewers that dedicate themselves to a game or a genre are a lot better than those that try everything. but sadly they make less money. but personally I would love to see Yatzee take on doing 30 min to 1h long documentary style reviews on specific games he dedicates +100h on. there are so few of those on youtube, and they are probably some of my favorite reviews.

@InfiniteDarkMass

2 жыл бұрын

@@MrMarttivainaa lol, is there actually an anime and a manga? Because I just assumed this is a "the book was better" joke, but nobody seems to stop and say "just kidding". = )

"Japanese games don't care about you missing things". And now I'm reminded of how I simply walked out the door of a temple in Final Fantasy X, missing a key item and there was no way to go back and get it. Completely fucking my ability to do a lot of the endless cool optional shit in the game.

@MrChaladar

2 жыл бұрын

Well in that particular case, the message you were supposed to get was "Fuck you buy the strategy guide" because that was how publishers got their double dip before DLCs.

I’m amazed how these developers could design such a huuuge map and still surprise players with brilliant yet organic locations and environments. The team some how designed a 1000 breathtaking unique locations and glued it all together into a single map. This is a milestone in gaming.

@HenshinFanatic

2 жыл бұрын

Apparently Miyazaki is really into cartography, so he really tries to go all out with the maps he makes.

Completely nailed it. I found myself wondering similarly about why I hated AC Valhalla's world so much but couldn't stop exploring Elden Ring and it really does come down to all of the exploration being pure discovery rather than me hyperfocusing on a waypoint and more or less knowing what I'm gonna find when I get there. I've even caught myself with this game doing that to myself. I look up a guide to a place with a cool weapon and don't take things in or explore on my way to the waypoint I set for myself then on my way back I notice things I didn't notice on the way there.

@SolaScientia

2 жыл бұрын

I like the option of adding markers on the map. I find myself getting easily sidetracked on my way to do something in Elden Ring and then I forget what I was originally setting out to do. I love stumbling across new caves or an elevator or whatever, but I sometimes forget where I saw it or I go there instead following a path I'd set myself. I like putting a marker for an NPC or a cave or whatever to help me remember to investigate the area. I like that it's my choice and that the map isn't plastered with a zillion icons. I'm just using them to help me keep track because there is so much to find in this game.

I always respected the original Dark Souls for having the confidence to hide an entire zone (2 zones technically) behind TWO illusory walls, in the middle of a completely unremarkable side room, at the bottom of a swamp level that practically begs the player to *not* explore it because of how deadly it is (and also heavy on frame rate.) I mean, that's weeks of work on something *most* players are unlikely to see, at least on first play throughs.

I've put 40 hours into this game and my best friend has put 70. It's all we're talking to each other about. And while there's definitely a bunch of stuff we've both seen and done it seems like 70% of the shit we tell each other the other person didn't see yet, which is crazy. There's an entire dungeon with major quest NPCs on the other side of it that I found and he didn't because I hit a wall leading into that area that turned out to be illusory and he didn't.

The witcher3 became vastly more fun once I installed a mod that tied the minimap to the witcher-senses button, in that the map and the markers would only appear if I was meaning to look for something specific, and was otherwise undistracted by that busy work while I explored. It gives me hope that most games seem to do that now.

Was not expecting an immediate follow up to the elden ring review. Im here for it!

“At that point you’re not making a sandbox. You’re making a golf course” That’s such a good line

I guess I'm so used to the handholding that Elden Ring is bumming me out. I keep not wanting to explore too much because I feel like I'm missing quests. "Why did that random mob have a name and give me his whole armor set? Was he part of a quest-line I just botched?" Non-stop anxiety, but I love it.

@HHH-rf2hv

2 жыл бұрын

You will miss out on quest if you're not using a guide or walkthrough, but it's better that way. You can always check guide on your NG+

The thing about BotW and Elden Ring and Yakuza is that, despite being products made by a company to sell, they are also labors of love made by people who really wanted to make something amazing and bordering on art.

@TheRedCap30

2 жыл бұрын

@@yungoldman2823 definitely, they are art in every sense of the word

@VanillaSnowGolem

2 жыл бұрын

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@atypicalpinetree4212

2 жыл бұрын

I'll just pile on that video games have been and will always be artistic expressions by definition, especially the video games made with an artisic vision and not a vision of money

@kentonbaird1723

2 жыл бұрын

Passion from the artist begets passion in the beholder of the art.

@pramitpratimdas8198

2 жыл бұрын

Good entertainment doesn't have to art and i don't think these games are anything but good entertainment. Sure they take skill to make but would you compare them to works of Shakespeare or Welles?

The idea of a waypoint riddled map actually ruins the exploration because you’re trying to go straight there to do something specific. I don’t know what I’m going there to do, and that’s exciting

@marcosdheleno

2 жыл бұрын

i dont even have a problem with waypoints riddled maps, IF, they are earned, just looking from a tall building or buying a map with all the boxes in the region isnt enough. if you have npcs, have them reward the player the location to a few of them, be it by having them tell you of something weird they saw or just by eavesdropping their conversations, maybe, link them to a major sidequest. maybe have them hint at other special locations, as if you found a fragment of a map for some grand treasure. just dont do it with shitty loot that is just a scrap of 5 coins or some usefull but unrewarding shit like that. in a game like gta you could have those secret weapon locations be listed in some random crackhouse you busted, or something like that so the player feel like its worth checking out.

@JonTheJedi

2 жыл бұрын

I disagree. I guess I'm just weird. Or tainted by my weird gaming history.

I'm glad there was another Elden Ring video, it's far more interesting hearing you discuss the topics around the game rather than reviewing the game itself (though that's good content too).

Long ago on that rant that Arin (Gamgrumps) had on that Ocarina of Time video, he said a line that struck with me on open world design: "I dont want you to tell me "Why i want to go there", I JUST WANT TO GO THERE!" Which is basically what all the formulaic Sandbox games are. They must tell you a convoluted or plot related reason of why you cant be there yet, they dont allow you to find by yourself.

@skeleben

2 жыл бұрын

That video is a masterpiece. That and Dunkey's (serious) video on game structure basically formed my whole concept of what makes a good game, and helped me articulate why SO MANY games are absolute shit.

One thing I really like about elden ring is the lack of pointless and near pointless collectables that require you to check everywhere. If you are happy with what you got go to the next boss, if not, well, lets see what the world has to offer.

@vertclecintron7015

2 жыл бұрын

Elden Ring's collectables: "find all the legendary armaments/talismans/spirits/spells" or "get flattened by every boss" or "experience all the endings"

@kentonbaird1723

2 жыл бұрын

Margit the Fell is weak to Scarlet Rot and there is a hidden item that will bind him helplessly to the floor. If you undertake a journey to find the means of obtaining these things, he can be overcome by a complete noob. There are no quest markers and practically no hints to solve this puzzle, and I'm now convinced almost every other Boss might have hidden, subtle secret weaknesses too. This game doesn't inundate you with suggestions and the best possible weapons and strategies for progressing, there isn't a voiceover telling you the plan. You're the one making the plan and solving the mystery. The game is entirely in your own hands.

@mattemactics1280

2 жыл бұрын

@@kentonbaird1723 Could you imagine if every time you tried to go into the battle with Marget, Melena popped up to tell you that you might want to go get these items? lol.

@SkribbleNL

2 жыл бұрын

@@mattemactics1280 I feel for all the streamers who's chat are pretty much doing this

Thanks for years of smartly-written reviews and insights!

That's why I recently started replaying "classic" Assassin's Creed games (aka anything up to Black Flag) with HUD completely turned off. It takes some getting used to, but I wholeheartedly recommend it, as you no longer spend 90% of the time with your eyes glued to the minimap. The games are infinitely more fun when they're not trying to exploit your completionist syndrome by constantly screaming at you: "Look at all those sidequests and collectibles! You wouldn't want to miss out on those, now would you?".

@ethicalcheeze1407

2 жыл бұрын

I play Wildlands like this. The minimap is a distraction, and the game is so much better without it. Now, planning out routes on the map is fun cause instead of constantly checking the minimap, I have to trust I know where I'm going, or that I can fix it if I fuck it up. Base infiltrations actually feel like "infiltrations" now, cause instead of looking for red splotches on a minimap, I'm paying attention to sightlines, guys laughing in the distance, the shadows in the room. I'm finding good vantage points and doing extensive recon before I ever step foot on enemy territory. It makes for a a FAR more immersive and enjoyable experience in my opinion. Shit, I might turn off the HUD altogether.

@TPrice919

2 жыл бұрын

I have been playing the Ezio Trilogy and while Assassins Creed 2 was manageable Brotherhood has so many icons it borders on stressful. I may see if I can do that and see how it goes because in general I do prefer when the game lets you discover it as you go.

Yahtzee comparing the modern AAA sandbox to a single player MMO is as accurate as it is damning. I always feel with games like those the painstakingly crafted open world may as well not even be there because all it offers is a commute that you make a straight line through to the next marker for a mission that is identical to the last. They figured out that the skinner box MMO format is optimized for pushing your dopamine buttons and now they have a perfect streamlined formula they don't have to change at all as long as they add a new gimmick to make it seem different.

Your short video essay format is fricking awesome. Love this stuff. I’d love to see some longer theses tho

I have a friend whose been teaching in Japan for years now while also studying to make games of their own and from what they've told me there is an attitude of game design that has persisted since the 80's in Japan. "You make it look good first, THEN you worry about everything else". Not sure if that's a good or bad mentality to have for game design but I guess it's worked for Japan thus far putting esthetic first and everything else second.

@hotfishdev

2 жыл бұрын

That makes sense, especially when thinking about Nintendo’s offerings. The gameplay in a lot of their games is very simple, but they nail the look to the point where Fall Guys is more mechanically complex then a fair few of their more recent titles but nothing looks as great. It kinda makes you wonder if we really actually care about depth all that much, when the pretty things do better then the ugly things even if the ugly things are technically superior.

@Wolfs0n

2 жыл бұрын

@@hotfishdev Which makes it more paradoxical with Fromsoft games that purposely go for a more ugly western fantasy esthetic. That said they also put a lot of detail into them, as dark an dingy as much of their armor sets and weapons look from the original Demon Sould to now Elden Ring they are still esthetically pleasing to behold.

@nickrustyson8124

2 жыл бұрын

Honestly that sounds bad, it's Style over Substance, you will get a good looking game, but is boring and has shit gameplay

You nailed it with Horizon, when mentioning the stunning vista with a bright, unmissable objective marker glued to the screen! This bugged me so much in Horizon Zero Dawn, that I ended up turning off EVERYTHING on the HUD, and my lord was it a STUNNING game to play once there was zero clutter on the screen anymore, I truly enjoyed my experience with it after that. Really sucks tough, that I had to go turn off all these settings in the menu, essentially playing the game in an 'unintended' way, before the game felt good.

@SolaScientia

2 жыл бұрын

I should try HZD again with the icons turned off. Although my issue with the game comes down to the design itself. The beginning feels so cluttered with all the herds of machines I either have to speed through or kill (and I got sick of those options). I never felt at ease enough to explore, because I was so worried about stumbling across yet more machines. Yes, I can stumble across something wanting to kill me in Elden Ring, but I do tend to feel a little more at ease, at least in Limgrave, than I do in HZD, because it's not enemies wall-to-wall and the even more open space allows for better exploring.

@Coreisus

2 жыл бұрын

It's also annoying how doing that in most games means you now have no idea where you're going cuz the game's developed with the intention of us following markers. There's no road signs and quest givers don't give realistic directions, they tell you to go to a place as if you already know where that place is.

@SolaScientia

2 жыл бұрын

@@Coreisus And the world itself is usually designed so you can't stand in certain locations and see where all you can go. They hide it behind a massive mountain chain or some other block so it forces players to keep going along the more linear route instead of seeing a place in the distance and heading there and then finding all sorts of new things along the way. I love seeing all the landmarks in the distance in Elden Ring knowing I can make a beeline for them if I really want to. I love being able to see a castle in the distance in Dark Souls 3 and having no idea what lies between me and it or how to get there, but that's the nature of the previous, tighter FS games.

@raskbell

2 жыл бұрын

@@SolaScientia Interesting, I have the exact opinion with regards to dread/ease exploring new areas. I found HZD much more peaceful as the robots are generally easy to sneak by or gallop away from, and really dangerous areas are clearly marked/easy to avoid. Whereas Elden Ring, especially new enemies could possibly do anything, and one shots are a very real threat. Not to mention the risk of a boss monster or invaders appearing out of nowhere or a trapped chest teleporting you somewhere super deadly. Given all of that, I found exploration in HZD much easier and therefore less tense for me.

This game and BotW remind me about everything I love about Zelda 1. This game exudes confidence and respect towards the player and its hard to find a AAA title like that these days.

Yahtzee pulling out the "shitpoo" line with the sound effect really caught me off guard 'cause there's rarely sound effects in these videos, much less "meme" sound effects

I recall the developers of Hollow Knight had almost exactly this philosophy when it came to their game. It was purposefully built knowing it was unlikely the player would see everything on the first playthrough.

@samlipton7872

2 жыл бұрын

Yup! It must have taken me until my third playthrough to reach the Hive. So many areas to discover and explore by testing boundaries and going off the beaten path.

I can't express enough how much I love the lack of objection markers. I want to figure it out for myself, not be told exactly where to go all the time. Extra points if they give you audible directions AND an impossible to miss marker on your map on top of a marker on your HUD compass. Why???

@charliericker274

2 жыл бұрын

It's been said why. Because they spent money making the thing, so they want people to see the thing. Of course, this is dumb. If people enjoy your game, you have succeeded, whether they miss stuff or see everything, as long as people enjoy (and buy of course) the game, it's a win. The real issue, with many games not just open world, is that they care way more about the buying than the enjoying. If they can sell a game based on hype and trailers alone, then who needs an actual good game.

@FloridaGoth

2 жыл бұрын

It's pretty liberating not having pointers. I feel like im exploring instead of micromanaging. I'm doing everything because i want to, not because some odd arrow makes me feel like i didn't ddo everything

@armedweiss5531

2 жыл бұрын

In Elden Ring the only objective markers are the spot you last died so you can find your runes, and ones you set for yourself. Everything else is pure exploration at its finest.

@LuisSoto-fw3if

2 жыл бұрын

@@FloridaGoth Going back to an area and finding out you missed a dungeon is bloody awesome, although I do think some things should be easier to get to. I am not sure I understand why Incantentions are unlocked by gaining access to the hub area while sorcery is not. That being said, I only had to Google two things since I had like 35 hours under my belt and was unable to find them naturally. 1 being the sorcery teacher (Which, admidetly, I completely forgot about the Item that gave you a clue for it) and 2 the Smithing stone vendor, mostly because I wanted to try other weapons and I wanted to get them to at least +6 so they wouldn't be useless, and I tried farming but I only got like 1 drop every 20 minutes near the Storm gate.

@SolaScientia

2 жыл бұрын

@@LuisSoto-fw3if I need to find that vendor at some point. I'm going to try to stumble across them first before I look it up. I noticed how rare smithing stone drops are, so I'm glad there's an NPC to sell me them instead.

I still remember the first time I went from Morrowind to Oblivion and was like "Wtf, there's an arrow pointing exactly where I need to go? What's the point of exploring then?" And then that was the next 10 years of open world gaming.

The game reminds me a bit the book 100 years of solitude in it characters context. I had extremely hard time dive in the book until my friend gave me an interesting tip i would have never thought to be helpful - Write down every character you met and it occupation. I was extremely suprised how distant characters have their fates intertwined. Even the most distant and distinct one.

The whole Souls series has the confidence to be systems-driven with most of the story just being fragments most people won't see if they aren't told it first

In the opening hour in Elden Ring, I found a chest that transported me to a high level area I was not supposed to be in yet. In the same opening hour of other open world games, you'd still be in the tutorial being told how to move about by NPC's that you couldn't give less of a shit about. Maybe it's this approach that means I've sunk more hours into Elden Ring than all the "Far Cry 3, but with X" open world games.

A good open world is like having a good romantic partner. Confident, full of depth, and allowing things to naturally progress instead of trying to force things to happen based on insecurity or being pretty but shallow

Speaking of open world, yahtz really must try the game "Kenshi" because that was made by one dude and is a fucking amazing sandbox. In fact it takes sandbox to the extreme, becoming almost sim city esque while having intriguing combat and world exploration. But be wary of the bugs.

One thing you missed is that the game points to the recommend place to go with the guidance of grace, but usually the boss of the zone is strong enough that you have to explore the area first to get stronger(or be really good at dodging), which is how i always thought and rpg is supposed to work. They also did this with minimum repetitive grinding, which is an achievement in itself.

Interesting! I definitely think this is a good perspective on why BOTW and Elden Ring work for people, though the problem with "let people miss things" design, is that some players (me with BOTW) will just miss everything interesting by chance and call it a 6.5/10

@Ohmriginal722

2 жыл бұрын

Which is what makes Elden Ring even better because if you miss stuff in that you get flattened with difficulty and are forced to turn back and explore.

@_sophies

2 жыл бұрын

@@Ohmriginal722 Or you just only find stuff that's uninteresting, or stuff that flattens you. That's mostly been my experience thus far.

@LuisSoto-fw3if

2 жыл бұрын

@@_sophies What do you mean you miss things? You really don't need many key items to progress the game, AFAIK, you can literally end the game with your starting gear if you want

@Daehpo

2 жыл бұрын

Perhaps it's also dependent on the types of players as well? Open World games seem to cater the most to players who just want to run around & explore. They can have good stories to them, but players who care more about an ongoing narrative may better enjoy a more linear game. I'm surprised you "just miss[ed] everything interesting by chance". Even making a beeline for the castle should of had some noteworthy events... maybe it's that you don't find the games content interesting in & of itself. I don't know what kinds of games you like, but I know I'm guilty of buying games that I heard were "good" & just not enjoying them. For example, I got "Little Nightmares", & while I like the look & atmosphere of the game, I have a hard time just sitting down & playing it. I also got "ICONOCLASTS" because I heard it was a good game & I think it's good looking, but it taxing to play. I'm not sure how to describe it per-say, these aren't bad games, but I just don't enjoy playing them. However, I fell in love with "Steam World Dig 2", cause it offers a nice freedom of movement. You kind of have to figure out your own tastes.

@_sophies

2 жыл бұрын

@@LuisSoto-fw3if When people praise these games, it's for the exploration, finding interesting things in the world. Sure, you can make a beeline for the endgame, but that's going to be even less interesting, lol

This is something I've been seeing in my own explorations of elden ring, that the world is so densely packed with things to find and do, it really shows From Softwares's larger mastery of level design.

153 hrs. in Eldin Ring so far. Going to go for 100% on first playthrough before I go NG+ (well other than the different ending I can't get any more on this playthrough). I'm a thorough person when I play these kinds of games, I roll into all the walls, I check all the windows and corners etc... and I am still finding things. Biggest piece of advice for fellow tarnished, unless you are genuinely frustrated with something and I mean you just cannot figure it out, don't look up anything or locations for stuff online. Give it some time, take a break, then take another crack at it. PS: Read ALL item descriptions! I cannot stress this enough FromSoft purposefully puts hints and other tid bits of lore and scavenger hunts in their item descriptions. Don't just get an item and stuff it in your Infinite Bag of Holding.

Funny thing about Elden Ring and BOTW is that their "open" worlds work beacuse they aren't really open. Open worlds both of these games are just little pockets connected to each other by barries (terrain, enemies etc.). In most cases these barriers are passable but just inconvenient enough that you wouldn't skim over them but pleasent enough to not discourage you passing them. This makes you "locked" in these pockets and makes you want to explore them. In this exploration these games make you find a new passage that is convenient to pass through, or a reward in for example some kind of dungeon. The later gratificates your exploring and the enjoymeny of this gratification makes you want to go to the next pocket without bothering about the inconvinience of passage that you'll have to go through.

You know what sandbox idea only a complete fing psycho would actively attempt to pursue? A sandbox visual novel.

@Erick-tv8oq

2 жыл бұрын

The only way I could ever see that working is if there is some kind of timetravel at play, but even if there isn't it sounds like an incredibly interesting idea. I hope someone makes a game like that one day just so we could see what it can look like

Shoutout to crunchyroll for making an actual shenmue anime and sparing us the experience of having to play it tbh

@SolaScientia

2 жыл бұрын

I sure hope there's a bit with him airing out books though, lol. The forklift driving was handled well in the anime.

@unyanizedcatboys

2 жыл бұрын

@@SolaScientia I haven’t seen it yet but YEAH i hope it does the few fun things in the game justice

@SolaScientia

2 жыл бұрын

@@unyanizedcatboys I admit I never played any of the Shenmue games, but I've seen enough clips and heard enough them from others to have a good idea of how they work and such. They really are working to make the anime be coherent and enjoyable. Fans in the comments also seem pleased with it so far.

I'm really enjoying these brief but poignant deep-dive supplements to the fun but more performative Zero Punctuation. Keep up the great work!

One of my absolute favorite parts of what Elden Ring did, is when you are unlocking all the different parts of the map so you can open it up to see more and more, its not covered in markers by default, you put the markers there YOURSELF, so you the player are the one that notes these important and cool places.

04:04 Yahtzee gestalting why *Oblivion* is remembered as a gorgeous game, while something like *The Last of Us 2* is remembered as a game with great graphics.

While I really like Elden Ring (it's super fun to play), I also don't think it changes the genre. It's doing something similar like BotW. The exploration is what makes the Open World. And that's a cool "back to the roots" approach. However, I do think that it is missing in the interaction part. The goal is the exploration, not the interaction. There are quests, but those are far and few between. And that is good for the sandbox. But I think a lot of other Open World games like Witcher 3 don't want to be Sandboxes. They want to create a living and breathing world. It's less about the exploration and more about the interaction. The world reacts to you and (in the good cases) shows you the results of your interactions. After I kill a large main boss in Elden Ring, one NPC might mention it, but the world won't change because of it. And that can be good or bad. The point is I think we should finally make a difference in the Open World genre. There are games that want to be Sandboxes where you can go wherever you like and the story is in the background. Nothing really changes, but it's the exploration that is the main attraction. And then there are the interactive Open Worlds which want you to immerse in the role of the character you are playing and interact with the NPCs in that world through that role. Of course, most games will be somewhere in between, but usually you can make out what the main focus is. It's just pointless to compare Elden Ring to Horizon for example, because the goal of these games is completely different.

@kylehalpern6695

2 жыл бұрын

As someone who dislikes most open worlds but loved breath of the wild and the various souls games(haven't gotten around to Elden ring yet). Personally I didn't really care for the Witcher 3. While I can acknowledge it has strong world building and setting I felt like it's good quests where completely outnumbered by the go kill more neckers quests. I spent too long following yellow lines on my minimap and not paying as much attention to the world itself. I personally think that linear games are usually better at telling a story and showing the result of your choices. Ala Undertale or the Witcher 2

@Modie

2 жыл бұрын

@@kylehalpern6695 And that's totally reasonable as I said, because the goals aren't the same just because both are Open World games. As for the quests, I do disagree, because I think the actual quests are well done. Not sure, if you are including the side activities as well (like bandit camps or monster nests), because I deleted those from my map so that I just stumble upon them when I travel (and I feel then they work). There are a lot of monster quests, but they always include the preparation part which I think is good, but I wished they built a bit more on that as you usually don't have to really prepare for specific monster battles. Witcher 3 did another thing well and that was that the world seemed alive in the sense that certain quests are only available after a specific time. For example, there are some villages that give you quests the first time you arrive and new quests the second time you arrive which removes this idea that this is just a hub for a certain number of quests but that they encounter new problems each day that you might be able to solve. The point about the consequences are the consequences in the world, not necessarily the story. For example, if you choose to support a certain faction in the game, then the world and its boarders could change resulting from that decision. Witcher 3 doesn't do that very heavily to be fair (I think there is the one village that can get destroyed if you free the tree spirit, but since it doesn't come with new quests in the other way, it doesn't have that much of an effect). To be honest, this is probably the part that most Open World games can and should get better at as the consequences are still very minor. I remember in Gothic 3 you could free cities from Orcs and they would be repopulated with people then. And if you freed too many cities, the orcs wouldn't trust you anymore. Which is an interesting concept. But the main problem was that the cities were just repopulated with standard NPCs afterwards without any follow up quests, so there was no real point in freeing the cities during the game and you just did it at the end if you wanted to.

@kylehalpern6695

2 жыл бұрын

@@Modie interesting take. I never removed Icons from my map and I basically came very close to 100%ing the game. Perhaps my problem is that the new quests that show up are usually just kill basic monsters and I never needed or required prep as oiling my weapon never really felt impactful so I just spammed light attacks and healing potion and killed low level mobs. Maybe my game completion was part of the problem because I did more copy paste necker quests then perhaps the designers intended. I enjoyed the better character choice driven side quests when they were their. I just found them to be a minority of the games total quests.

@59768

2 жыл бұрын

Agreed. So far it's been a joy to explore in Elden Ring. But its world is also so lifeless compared to something like W3 or Gothic or Morrowind. There are barely any people in it who behave any differently than mindless monsters. There is no civilization to speak of. Not even the broken remnants of one which would be needed to do its setting any justice.

@ironman-fg3jh

Жыл бұрын

@@59768 ye Witcher 3 is much better than elden ring. So is fallout 4, even if it lacks the choices that w3 has

Of note, Breath of the Wild also kinda did the "here's your main goal castle in the center, not much stopping you from rolling up to it right now except the massive difficulty spike" thing that Elden Ring did, but instead of JUST telling you where it was and why you want to go there, BotW explicitly said that rushing into the final boss dungeon right out the gate is suicidally reckless and that you should explore the world a bit first.

I recently came across this channel a short while ago and I've been very much hooked to it. Everything is formal, factual, and transparent about the gaming industry which I approve of as an aspiring game developer myself... The witty humour and black-adder explanations add to the charm too.

@Popo5525

2 жыл бұрын

You're in for a treat, then. Yahtzee is, in addition to a reviewer, a game developer(and an author, but I digress). He has a couple longer-form videos on his own channel where he and a buddy play through and criticize his own games from his younger years. Good stuff.

'Open-world' as golf-course, got to remember that one.

Even the haters still have interest in this game and are lured by its intimidation. I say that's more of a positive then having it be forgotten like so many other Triple A titles.

@starmaker75

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah I wanted to play and loved soulborne and Elder ring games and brace my inner emo-goth, but man I don’t have patience and tolerance for there difficult( i'm saying I’m pansy), but still respect the games for giving that brutal difficult niece and the games being good in general

@nickrustyson8124

2 жыл бұрын

So Duke Nukem Forever is a good game?\

I think what also makes Elden Ring distinct is that, unlike every other open world, you don't just open the map and find it all in one go for you to carelessly plop down a marker and go, it's a map that you have to find by pieces, and the only way you can do that is actually engaging with the game's exploration and combing over a region until you have found the map, then you can go back for the stuff you missed. It's really feels like you're charting out the land as you go.

Thank you for so thoroughly articulating that which I couldn't. That said I feel kinda silly now having completed the aforementioned big fuck off castle before doing any exploration in Elden Ring. Reminds me of having cleared out the catacombs before even finding the entrance to undead burg and how much of a painful experience that was so very long ago.

I really wish someone made a game like this, but with a pleasant atmosphere (perhaps in a realistic nature location). The world sucks, and I'm depressed. I don't get anything from getting twatted about, and I only remember the difficulty whenever I achieve a difficult task. I don't want a walking simulator, I want to be let out into a pleasant world that I can explore, do simple tasks and make decisions. The closest thing to this I've ever seen was riding a horse around while dodging fights in Kingdom Come: Deliverance. If only there was a way to take that world and use it with the gameplay of something like My Summer Car.

I prefer my sandbox'es with markers where the stuff is. I neither like missing stuff I would have liked to see, nor do I enjoy running into walls a ton. Next to the thing that happens when I pick a game up after a while, and would like to know where all the stuff I want to visit (again) was. Plus, of course you'll see all the busy work on a map, yet you can decide to not run towards the busy work or skip the busy work. It's like driving around in a car,... I do like to have a map where stuff is and don't like driving around random while trying to steer with one hand and the other hand being busy map making o.o

@Erick-tv8oq

2 жыл бұрын

Elden Ring does have markers on its map though, but they are of a different kind. The map depicts the lands you're exploring from above, and it's styled as if it was hand drawn by a priest or something like that, so everything of interest IS depicted on the map, but not pointed out to you. As you interact with the game, you'll notice for example that churches and ruined towns are depicted in similar shapes, evergaols are little rimmed circles on the ground, mine entrances are irregular orange circles usually close to walls of stone, etc. (After you discover something important the map will more often than not start representing it as a special drawing that stands out from everything else, but only after you've discovered it). If you don't have the map of a certain area, at first this area will be depicted as completely foggy, but as long as you explore it even without orientation the fog clears up and reveals an obelisk-like symbol. Go towards said symbol once and you know exactly what it is for the rest of the game. Also, there are markers you can put on your map, and you are the one who has to decide which marker means what. For example, I put a little skull in every place I've been to that is too high level for me, a four-legged animal where I find merchants (because they all have a donkey-like creature by their side), the icon of a person everywhere I find an important NPC, etc. There is a way to put a temporary marker exactly where you want to go, and it shows as a beacon in your world, but it never tells you exactly how far you are from your objective and it never traces the fastest way towards it, 'cause that's for you to determine.

@JenniferFuss

2 жыл бұрын

@@Erick-tv8oq You might have noticed that I wrote about how I prefer my sandbox'es. Not how I prefer Elden Ring, for I haven't played Elden Ring as my desktop can't stomach it. I still maintain that I very happily have my map marked with all the things there are. With an indicator whether I've done the things or didn't do the things. I even like indicators on a compass thingy where the things are and am even happy to have a direct trail lighting up the war there is to take towards the thingy. I want nice, little icons whether it's like Fallout 3, Horizon Zero Dawn or even the Far Cry series. I personally make it a point to avoid getting to the boss, before I have visited all the stuff I enjoy. I would further argue that there is no functional difference between blocking a path with powerful enemies like Gothic did or apparently Elden Ring does, or removing barriers. Both things do functionally the same thing. I don't want to have a Disneyland/themepark style map where only the big stuff is indicated and where I maybe can find stuff by pressing my nose right up to it. Back to the driving metaphor, when I am driving around, I want e.g. Google Maps show me on requests where gas stations are - whether it is because of my car going to get empty or an urgent need for a bathroom break. I don't want having Google Maps show me an abstract painting of a gas station, so that I can try to find one in time. I even like if Google Maps tells me whether or not I've been to a restaurant or not. In regards to Elden Ring, going by the Escapists streams and discussions it appears that smaller dungeons have to be found and are not noted. Apparently you gotta examine some pictures (whom you can't like zoom at) for some to find. You might not have an idea if you cleared the dungeon and might not have an idea for which of all those mini dungeons you need to find some keys. Well or apparently where those keys are. Well, and while I'll likely get Elden Ring once my PC got upgraded and will likely enjoy it, I just don't particularly look foward to it's sandbox design. Even not if I can do my own thingys on it (where Elden Ring appears to have some room for improvement, otherwise the guys would have like just marked the unfinished dungeons differently from the finished ones and stuff.

I am super into the message this deep dive is spreading. The metaphor of a game being a golf course rather than a sandbox makes so much sense based on so many open world games I've played. And having watched my mates play Elden Ring, I see it has the confidence to let you go wherever, do whatever, and if you miss content, that's on you. Because you made that choice.

The "sandbox vs golf course" analogy is on freaking point. I love it.

@nickrustyson8124

2 жыл бұрын

Granted it kinda falls apart when you think about how he put the 3D era GTA games in examples of good sandbox even though Golf Course is pretty accurate to them

I am so happy games like this are successful Hopefully this shows the Video Game Industry that good games sell. Also, that different games can be profitable

FYI, I tested this on NG+ and confirmed. You don't ever need to step into Stormveil Castle to complete the game. And I'm not even talking about speedruns that glitch through content, I mean that you can legitimately clear the game by going around Stormveil Castle and taking on other Shardbearers instead.

What I like with Elden Ring's map is how the game gives players the option to add little markers on it or put a beacon that you can see in the world, but it's all optional. Thanks an assortment of attention issues I very easily get sidetracked on my way to particular location or to take care of a specific task, and then I'll forget what my original plan was because I found another cave or a set of stairs in some ruins or whatever. With the markers I can put a few down to help me remember to head wherever to find an NPC or an item or whatever. I like that it's my choice and the map isn't filled to bursting with icons. I do like how it shows me where map pieces are but how it's very subtle and not some lit up thing uglying up the map, lol. Forbidden West looks great, but considering how bored I got in Zero Dawn I'm very much holding off getting it. I got HZD for free last year and I played up to when Aloy is in the middle of a side quest to clear out 3 bandit camps (2 small ones and a big one in the ruins of a stadium in the Northeast of the map). As I was playing I suddenly realized how frustrated and bored I got. All the icons on the map started stressing me out. Seeing all the little diamonds with exclamation points in the menu when I opened it got annoying since I'm one of those who can't have notification icons lit up all over my phone, computer, or game. I also got to hate always having to either run past or fight herds of machines. I couldn't go maybe 50 yards without running into a herd. Aloy's mumbling was fine at first, but that got annoying as well. Most of that is because I do mutter to myself when gaming as it helps me remember objectives and such, so when a character is doing it as well I get taken out of the little zone I've gotten myself into. Yes, Elden Ring is filled with enemies, but they're easier to avoid and not always clustered together in unavoidable groups. The world is more wide open than HZD's world (what I played of that game anyway) and it really does feel like it's my choice. I'm also used to the "your funeral" approach FromSoftware games have when it comes to running into places you really shouldn't fuck with yet. Yeah, running to Margit pretty early on fucked me over, but I had that site of grace lit so I could return for a few goes any time I wanted just for a change of pace from exploring. Even if I don't hang out for long in an area, I like having the site of grace as a way for me to return there when I feel like I can handle the situation a bit better than earlier. Any pressure not to miss out on something is pressure I've put on myself alone and so it's my own fault if I get bogged down about missing out on something.

This made me rethink why I love Xenoblade Chronicle X (X Specifically, didn't much like 1 & 2) with your comment about allowing the sandbox room to breath and allowing discovery. For sure there is a main path in XCX, but the best bit by far is the literal hundereds of interesting quirks in the open world that make it feel alive and worth exploring.

The small caves, catacombs, dungeons are good. better than bloodborne's chalice and handcrafted. The legacy dungeons are just great. Big, complicated, different routes to go, all distinct and unique. Elden Ring's map is actually small for a open world but they are all handcrafted, which makes it feel larger than most copy-paste opew world.

@user-yp6yr9te7l

2 жыл бұрын

I think it's big in terms of density of variety, and 3 dimensionality. Other maps might be bigger in the area it covers but there might not be much to explore or new. Elden Ring's world feels like a labyrinth even if it is open.

I'm not sure Fromsoft falls under "triple A gaming" at least in how the gaming community defines it. I understand that they are a large developer but they don't have the same business/design models as western devs do. Namco-Bandai doesn't seem to intrude on their development, asking for microtransactions/ or other forms of revenue streams that ultimately hinder user experience. Miyazaki has been able to create profitable passion projects. His analog gaming experiences(Tabletop RPGS) and novel interests are throughout the games he directs.

@nickrustyson8124

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah it falls under Triple A gaming, if it's from a large developer who can through more money than you have ever seen into a project like it's nothing, it's a Triple A developer

I don't ever feel like I discovered anything in Ubisoft sandboxes. There was so much direction and pull towards whatever it is that it feels like I had no other choice but to "find" it. In Elden Ring I stumble across stuff every twenty minutes, completely unprompted. And on my way back I discover something I missed on the way!

The thing that like about those Open World games and Fallout games is that they don't fill the map with stuff to do that eventually fade out, they fill the map with the stuff YOU have done or places YOU discovered

I think you can even have good games with quest markers and all that. Cliche, but Skyrim was quite excellent and it certainly has quests and map markers galore. But it also has random shit that you can just find while exploring. The issue is that companies saw skyrims success and aped all the wrong aspects of it. They got the huge map with tons of objectives but they often leave out the feeling of discovery and creating your own journey. In a lot of ways, Elden Ring is SkyrimXDark Souls. And honestly, that is something fans have wanted for a long time and no other game quite got right. Some people might dislike the skyrimification of dark souls, some people think skyrim is garbage. And that is fine. Personally, it's just what I wanted. Great game, praise the elden ring.

@gransorendragonsdogmaii9181

2 жыл бұрын

Dragon's Dogma: Dark Arisen

@richardvlasek2445

2 жыл бұрын

what do you mean "aped all the wrong aspects of it" skyrim is literally the prototype of the typical xbone/ps4 era sandbox where you can go anywhere, do anything, no decisions actually lock off meaningful content and everything scales with you so a level one character with an iron sword can blaze through the boring main storyline and smash anduin's shit in without levelling even once

@softcatsocks9618

2 жыл бұрын

That reminds me of just how many darksouls combat mods are there for Skyrim. I think you're right--that people really wanted the open world sandbox of Skyrim + fromsoftware combat. Elden Ring must be basically a dream come true for those people.

@fallingintime

2 жыл бұрын

I think skyrims UX is such a disaster, first thing anyone does is install skyui, texture and mesh replaces, ihud and paper maps . But no mods fix the quest journal that is totally useless. These changes make the game play differently. No handholding, paying attention to the environment can naturally lead you to interesting dungeons without a compass. It's shocking that Morrowind has the better UX - and that has a tiling window manager for its menus and a journal that obfuscates the quest log in a hidden menu

I think the game that makes the best use of it's open-worldness is Hollow Knight. The reason is because the rewards for going off the beaten path and finding secrets will always be one of a very small set of things, all of which you'll be happy to find. No useless crafting materials, no cosmetics, just straight up upgrades. Edit: to elaborate what I meant, while Hollow Knight itself is not technically an open world game, actual open world games can look at what it does well to make themselves better.

@channelremoved32

2 жыл бұрын

same, i really wish hollow knight came up more in discussions about open worlds. it's my ideal big sprawling exploration game, and the first time i started up elden ring, it made me feel like i was playing hollow knight all over again

@blacklotus561

2 жыл бұрын

Hollow knight isn't open world though. It's very clearly a metroidvania game and you can't really go anywhere without aquiring those upgrades you are talking about. Each upgrade unlocks a new part of the map that was previously locked off for you.

@TheMarkoSeke

2 жыл бұрын

@@blacklotus561 sure, but it opens up very quickly and you can explore it in a variety of orders, access areas from multiple directions, and multiple players will likely have different stories of what they've found and the path they took to get there, all of which are aspects of open world games

@LuisSoto-fw3if

2 жыл бұрын

@@TheMarkoSeke not really, unless you strech it. Dishonored is a game with multiple paths towards the objective, even if its mission based, but you wouldn't call it open world.

@jex-the-notebook-guy1002

2 жыл бұрын

Outward

2:31 Holy Shit, didn't expect to be nostalgia-blasted by a reference to the Goofus and Gallant comics that came with my monthly Highlights magazine here in the States....wow that's one of the deepest nostalgia cuts I've felt, like from 4 years of age

I had almost the opposite feeling about Elden Rings open world You find something, it's very cool, and that's the end of it. There is no rabbit hole to keep delving into finding the bliss of a bonfire just when you needed one- There's somewhere to restore next to a thing, you go in and kill whatever's there, and you return the way you came in. Not to mention the duplicate bosses making some of those experiences have no climax at all Save for the wells, those were very cool and extensive. Other than that the only gratifying souls experience I can find in the game is in the main areas you have a golden path leading you to which takes away that magic of exploration anyway.

A good sandbox has the principle "go anywhere, do anything" that's made GTA (noticably absent in this video) set the standard for open worlds. "Open world is a world, NOT a genre" from Jim Sterling also applies thanks to Ubisoft seeing the modern template of what open worlds devs think should be.

As much as I don't exactly LIKE the checklists, I think it does speak to a deeper issue with some of the lower tier or just annoying aspects of open worlds. Repetition. Finding x of y in any map is fine, but finding x of y in every z map section is just... busy work. A good or even great sandbox is all about the differences or finding unique ways to make things fun. Repetitive checklists might fulfill the letter but not the spirit.

I think a big part of what Elden ring and botw have going for them is also the length of their intro. Elden rings tutorial is less than 10 minutes, and while botw takes a while to get off the platuea it still drops you directly into the primary gameplay loop. Compare that to far cry 6 which took me nearly an hour before I could really explore, and even then I wasn't done having new mechanics thrown at me. So really I wasn't fully done until 3 hours in.

I prefer the way Skyrim does map markers: They are automatically added to your map when you get a quest for specific locations, or when something is mentioned in dialogue, or when you read an in game map with things marked on it. But other than that, your map starts basically empty of markers and things only get really added when you stumble upon them, so if you stumble across an area you wish to go back to, it's easy to find, but the game doesn't show you everything at the start, and it certainly doesn't care if you miss anything. I know Skyrim has other problems, but its open world aspect is actually done extremely well

"The names change but the cycle is forever." Damn, did he just spoil all of dark souls lore in one sentence?

@brandonszpot8948

2 жыл бұрын

Good catch

Boy, I cant wait to see how the imitators fuck up Elden Ring's perfection. So many little changes that could turn this sixtine chapel of a game into a Kiev ruin with a modern art painting hanging on a crumbling wall.

@macawesome7518

2 жыл бұрын

"oh people like this Elden ring thing? It's like that souls thing? And people like that because it's hard? Oh I know! Let's double the damage and health of all the enemies and remove easy mode in our next game! That'll make us GOTY for sure!"

@axios4702

2 жыл бұрын

@@macawesome7518 That happened already, they are called the Surge and Lords of the Fallen. The Surge 2 was really good though. Its nice seeing a videogame company slowly learning and improving.

@dawson3776

2 жыл бұрын

@@axios4702 The Surge 2 is really awesome, altho the level the design is great even on the first one.

@axios4702

2 жыл бұрын

@@dawson3776 Yes, the Surge 2 finally grasped why Dark Souls worked.ñ and forged its own identity. But the first one is awfull. Its terribly balanced. And the level design was labyrinthic, even if it had some good ideas.

I really enjoy not having to go through numerous dialogue boxes in this game. I hadn’t noticed until you pointed it out

You know, One open world game I enjoyed was mirror's edge catalyst. I played through the game twice on the PS4 where I initially bought it while it was on sale, in fact my second playthrough was done immediately after I beat the game once because I enjoyed it so much. But then I saw that the game was on sale on origin for $10 and so I decided to buy it a second time there and play it on my PC. And one thing I decided to do for my playthrough on PC was entirely turn off the runners vision mechanic which if you don't know would basically add guide arrows and highlight objects in red as a way to guide you to your destination. And upon turning it off, I felt like I was free to get to my destination however I wanted to which was really fun. Sure I did glance at the map screen a few times just to get an idea at where my destination was so I can figure out how to get there, but how I got there was entirely up to me and it was great. It just makes me wish even more that the game spent more time in the oven because it clearly needed it.

Well done, Elden Ring's an exception, rather than a justification for the last decade of open-world dross. Anything less than fawning, open-mouthed love for industry trends tends to be treated as a Chicken Little prediction.

Everyone. Please play the yakuza games

@lexnaum

2 жыл бұрын

No thank you

A very pertinent point made this that I've also been saying for the last few months: gamer discourse concerns itself far more about games that haven't come out yet than games that actually have, and it feeds into this pre-order/hype culture in gaming that is the source of many evils.

I liked the abstract art quip you did. It reminds me of Genos from OPM aka Modern art