Thanks Peter, I have been fretting over this very issue.

This has been one of your best videos to date, you have opened a can of worms though, after all if you get a transceiver, that is connected to a tuner and a linear and a SWR meter, then all the outer wire of the coax is basically earthing out each of the units, add earthing of all of 5he units as well and you can get earth loops which can be pretty deadly, AntenneX has published articles on this a lot, An Artificial Ground like the one that MFJ used to make is perfect for sorting out bad earths in the shack. Thanks Peter.

@watersstanton

10 күн бұрын

Yes the MFJ is a tuned version of the quarter wave wires I mentioned.

I had a most unfortunate situation with a nearby lightning strike. My house is protected with lightning rods, but lightning struck somewhere very close by the building. The energy entered the neutral side of my house mains. The high voltage passed through an Astron power supply and melted the insulation on the transformer. The voltage then exited through the negative terminal of the Astron and went through the power cable to my Yaesu FTDX 3000. The 25 amp fuse on that negative line blew, but also the actual fuse holder melted. The voltage exited through the Yaesu, I don't know where exactly, but the radio ceased to function. Sent the radio in for repair, but every circuit card was bad - beyond economic repair. No voltage entered through the positive power feed nor through the antenna which I had neglected to disconnect. So now my procedure is to unplug the power supply and disconnect the antenna coax. This same lightning strike destroyed a second power supply and a APRS station in an entirely different location in my house - same scenario, the negative power lead directed energy to a 2 meter radio and TNC. The energy destroyed a computer monitor in yet a third location in my house. All in all a very expensive event. I would have had to had all this equipment unplugged from the mains to prevent this. 73, Mark Julicher WX3O PS, I really liked that FTDX 3000, but am consoling myself with an 899a.

@watersstanton

10 күн бұрын

Sounds like you are lucky the home was not damaged. BTW, this kind of event normally has some cover on your household contents insurance. We occasionally are asked by insurance Companies to quote for replacement radios.

I did just what you said years ago when I was working on my General and CW (when the US license required 13 wpm). My shack was on the 2nd floor. I had ran a ground wire up from a ground rod but still wasn't enough. I would get a rf shock off the key. Boy did that bite hurt! I put quarter wave lengths of wire off the ground lug of my MFJ manual tuner and ran them under the baseboard around the shack. Did the trick. No more "shocks"! Robert KD4YDC

@watersstanton

10 күн бұрын

Yes RF burns are painful.

Very informative and timely video - at least for me - since I'm installing a new EFHW antenna for 40m through 10m here at my QTH. I also saw the ARRL video presentation of K6WX and I think your video helps clarify things even better. Thanks a bunnch Peter! David, K7KDE

@watersstanton

9 күн бұрын

Best of luck with the install David.

Good stuff peter. More rot gets talked about "earth" than pretty much any other subject in amateur radio. Nice to hear some clarity

Great video Peter! the mysterious and elusive "earth", took me years to get my head around it and restrict my efforts to things that were actually do-able! One aspect you only tangentially touched on, bonding equipment together. It made me think about those rigs that are 12V powered. Whether intended for vehicular or base operation, you can not assume the negative lead is connected to chassis and so you dont know for certain about its earthed status. Similarly, the power supplies for 12V rigs, again you cant assume the negative output is chassis or earthed. What anyone needs to do about these rigs and PSUs will be different depending on whether you are addressing RF grounding or power safety earthing. 73 de G0AFV

Thanks for doing this video. I was the one that requested it. It's such a confusing subject, not helping by most of the information being US based. I really appreciate you trying to clear things up.

@watersstanton

9 күн бұрын

Glad it was helpful!

@John2E0GTU

4 күн бұрын

Yep, earth's are much bigger in the USA!

What I hear regularly is "I have high receive noise, a good earth will cure it". Yet, I have never seen any evidence for that. Most noise seems to be picked up by the aerial system. Earthing seems to have become a bit of a superstition. It's different in the southern USA where you need lightning protection.

@watersstanton

2 күн бұрын

Agreed.

Great work

@watersstanton

2 күн бұрын

Thank you so much 😀

Well stated, as always, Mr. Waters! Thank you. AC5MF

Always unplug every device going to the radio and accessories when there is a storm around. It pays to take no chances.

@watersstanton

10 күн бұрын

Yep.

Great presentation. We rarely think of way ground wire in terms of wavelength and we should. Never thought of the 1/4 wave wire trick for RF in the shack. I wonder if that would help with other devices being effected by RF on wires like alarm systems and garage door openers. Might be worth an experiment. Here in the states, the National Electrical Code Requires any ground rod to be bonded to the rod at the point the electrical service enters the building. In the Motorola Standards and Guidelines for Communication Sites (R56) also requires the same bonding. Nothing in either mention RF as a reason. Here in the U.S. we use 60 Hertz for power and 1/4 wavelength (using the standard antenna formula) would be 776.5 miles long (!!) so the chance of of having a 1/4 wavelength ground wire for our AC power anywhere is pretty remote. But as you and K6WX state, at the upper frequencies we use, a 1/4 wave ground wire is not uncommon and with 10 meters and up, multiple 1/4 wavelengths may likely occur. And as lightning acts as a high frequency signal (essentially a pulse of energy with a very fast rise time, short duration and fast decay) it too may see our ground wire as a 1/4 wave (or odd multiple of) wire which could look like a high impedance and find a lower impedance path through our equipment.

@watersstanton

3 күн бұрын

Thanks for sharing that info.

Thank you Peter…I also viewed the k6 video. I experimented yesterday using an antenna analyzer (RigExpert Stick 500) on 40 and 20 meters just to verify if SWR, resistance or reactance changed with the station ground attached vs unattached. All remained constant…i.e. the station ground (8 ft copper rod with a seven foot #6 gauge wire) didn’t affect my station on those two bands…just had to prove it to myself👍

@watersstanton

9 күн бұрын

Thanks for sharing

Great advice Peter! My shack is on the second floor of my home with wire antennas

@watersstanton

10 күн бұрын

That’s interesting how you cured the problem.Thanks.

@wshanney

10 күн бұрын

@@watersstanton The ground plane idea came from the ARRL book "Grounding and Bonding for the Radio Amateur"

Peter, this is excellent! I know many extra class hams (and a few engineers) who do not understand this concept, so thank you for discussing it. It is vital to understand as it is part of the very foundation of current flow in any circuit. Keep up the great work. 73 OM

wow thank you Peter ive listened to the lecture, shocker pun pun, once again thank you

@watersstanton

10 күн бұрын

You're very welcome

As an audio comms engineer pre retirement Earth Loop ie multiple earth paths were a major issue. What was pushed at me when I started rf on retirement was allabout earthing so I did my ground rods and linking equpt. Following the dangers of remote earth on PMS Mains I have gone back to basics and only use earth for mains safety. Thanks for formalising this.

@watersstanton

10 күн бұрын

I guess audio and studio operation is a different problem for RF with all those long mic lead.

I watched the full ARRL lecture on this when it was released. Very interesting.

@watersstanton

10 күн бұрын

Agreed.

AFAIK shack rods (if exist) in ground should be connected together and here even connected to AC ground system (but all these connections done in ground) to have the same voltage potential everywhere (in case of storm for example). Lightning protection system requiring (even more) grounding. Power supplies can have floating output - which means connected equipment won't be AC grounded. Which also means device chassis won't be connected together. These things can be very complicated.

@watersstanton

10 күн бұрын

AC is somewhat different, but a common RF zero ground cannot exist.

TY Peter. im oldschool having all DC grounds down to 3 copper ground rods.. you dont mentiom dc grounding just RF and AC but ive understood your input,, ill leave my dc gnd in place becausemits very low noise since i fitted it..but ive learnt so much of RF earthing. cheers n ty for the heads up

@ROBByJONEs-2

10 күн бұрын

oh and i have rf chokes on every atu ..

Good job

Hello Peter - another really great and informative video. In Pat Hawkers book, Amateur Radio Techniques on page 296 there is a writeup on the Long Wire and the use of ¼ wave radials etc. My Shack is also upstairs and like you I don't have any RF Ground system and thank fully no RF issues. Great video Peter - 73 de Ger

@watersstanton

9 күн бұрын

Thanks for the info!

Great video Peter, this is a subject I’ve looked for many times on KZread and never really found what I’ve been looking for, until now. Thanks very much for the time and effort you put into these videos. Andy…

@watersstanton

9 күн бұрын

Glad it was helpful Andy.

21:23 Customer calls to order a bit of wire.

I love the Magnetic Loop antenas' above ground potential :P ....and as for grounding on a multi-floor building... just build an artificial ground (just as MFJ-931 or MFJ-9231 "used to" make).

If only this come out last week when I was bannging a big copper spike into the garden and stripping the plastic off a roll of copper wire brading it to protect my new FT 991 A ? God I love this hobby :)

@watersstanton

10 күн бұрын

Better late than never. Sorry.

Thanks Peter, this is all great information, well explained in concise language, I don't think there is much more to note on the subject for most of us, we can put it to rest.

@Pioneer936

10 күн бұрын

Don't think it can on the back of this video but check out the rsgb video

Your suggestion of putting a length of wire connected to your ground terminal (your 20m example) - just pondering perhaps tuning that wire....

Well Peter...... I'm a new ham having passed my foundation end of may, and firstly I'd like to thank you for all the videos you have made and I hope you make many more. This one has left me totally bewildered. While I know that if you ask 100 hams something you may get 100 different opinions, this one has me. In my own case, having a 2nd floor shack, I decided to ground to an earth rod using rg58 with a capacitor on the far end as per one method I found. I haven't found any increased noise level. So now we have... No need to ground at all.... Dont use a long wire to earth as it acts as an antenna.... use a quarter wave as an earth along the floor (doesn't this act as an antenna?) make sure you bind your equipment together... don't bind your equipment together... I dont know whether to leave it as is, rip it out or what. Heaven help us all. (posted with appreciation as I do value your contributions) 73

@watersstanton

10 күн бұрын

In simple terms, if you have not noticed a problem, do nothing!

@Pioneer936

8 күн бұрын

RSGB have the answers to your questions, start by watching their video on Bonding equipment correctly together

@Pioneer936

8 күн бұрын

@watersstanton that's bad advice, you may not notice a problem until there's an actual fault then it maybe too late

Brilliant and informative vid. Quick question on radials… i have a dx commander and buried my radials, my about 4 inchs. Does burying radials have a negative impact on performance?

@watersstanton

9 күн бұрын

No.

Great video. I spent months after passing my foundation trying to figure out grounding my station. Hope new radio users find this video before they end up going down the rabbit hole.

@Pioneer936

9 күн бұрын

My I suggest reading rsgb info on this subject its more relevant with safety and legalities fir UK installations

Only thing a ground helps me with is when I listen to aircraft NDB transmitters....down below the MW.....I get a lot of crackle.....I wire for my IC-7300 ground wing nut to my house hearting rad gets rid id that crackle. Interesting video Peter....in the set up page for an old Yaesu radio I had.....it recommended NOT to daisy chain component's together

@watersstanton

10 күн бұрын

Interesting. Thanks

Good sensible information… as usual..

The "ground is a myth" thing is goofy. Allowing your equipment to survive an enormous change in ground potential is quite important.

@BusDriverRFI

10 күн бұрын

Radio theory is just a myth. I don't believe any of it. N9XR.

Earthing and grounding....sounds like a comedy duo lol

@watersstanton

9 күн бұрын

Nice one!

thanks for the video , i guess the days of TVI are long gone

@watersstanton

10 күн бұрын

Yes, true

To stop rf in the shack you deal with it at the antenna not within your shack Bonding equipment to a common shack busbar is essential to ensure all equipment is at the same potential Rsgb has good information on this

@watersstanton

10 күн бұрын

You can do nothing at the antenna as is is designed to radiate. Leads at the shack end are where filtering is needed. The ARRL view aligns with the fact that there is no proven ben3fit of bonding. so far as RF is concerned. AC hum loops are a different matter.

@Pioneer936

10 күн бұрын

​​@@watersstantonbalance your antenna for a start , I follow the rsgb info for UK electrical systems not arrl that covers USA, check out their info on Bonding equipment also covered in our licence study books

I have found this rather interesting since this was to be tomorrow's project! But I still have a question, my glass fibre Moonraker vertical multiband is on a pole mounted to my garage, what are your recommendations?

XIEGU G90 ground wired to power supply ground which is house ac ground. Couldn't hear anyone without it. Also sunk an 8' copper ground for the static/ lightening arrester attached at the 9:1 unun via 9' #6 copper. See anything wrong with this ? KJ5GUN '73

When I was nine and building crystal sets I tried using a big plant pot full of mud from the garden as a portable earth. Sadly it didn't work.

@watersstanton

10 күн бұрын

You needed a bigger pot t filled with salt water!

Peter, good video. There seems to be a big discussion about earthing and PME systems? What about being connected to PME mains system and installing a vertical antenna that has radials in the earth?

@watersstanton

10 күн бұрын

Sorry that is for an electrician. Radials just below ground are basically the same as on the ground.

@Pioneer936

10 күн бұрын

If your antenna is connected to earth on a pme system it must be bonded back to your house earth system, see rsgb info

@MD0MDI

10 күн бұрын

Your trusting your electrical to understand earthing, they should do after all, but having seen nearly 110 volts being read on the earth rod at a home due to some shoddy work by a so called electrical installation engineer.

An artificial ground can help too

@watersstanton

10 күн бұрын

Yes MFJ made one.

Peter, thank you for all of your hard work. I love your “lessons”. Bob VE4RMC

@watersstanton

9 күн бұрын

Thanks Bob.

Lightning is a concern for me. I intend to put a 2” copper pipe 6 meters below the ground into the water table, copper strap from the pipe to the point the coax enters the shack, with a surge protector. I’ll use the surge protector as a point to disconnect the coax between there and the radio, when not in use. Perhaps I should also disconnect the “ground” at the radio when not in use as well.

@watersstanton

9 күн бұрын

There could be a problem as your coax strapped to the earth line will become a lightning. conductor.

@oldfartonabmx2122

9 күн бұрын

@@watersstanton Yes, but I'll be disconnecting my coax at the surge protector. So lightning would come down the DX Commander, down the coax (inside /outside) to the surge protector, that's bolted to the heavy copper strap (running outside of my steel shed shack), going to the earth pipe, and as long as I've disconnected the coax going into the shack at the surge protector, hopefully lightning will be directed away. Basically, I'll be using the surge protector as a point to disconnect my coax before it enters the shack.

Ham for 55 years, never grounded anything

@watersstanton

10 күн бұрын

Yep!

@jomckarth4836

10 күн бұрын

same here!

@stevekean512

7 күн бұрын

BAIDU

Should the common mode choke be nearest the antenna or the equipment? Can I put one on each end? Any benifit to this? Thanks

@watersstanton

3 күн бұрын

In most cases, near the equipment.

@Pioneer936

3 күн бұрын

@@garywatkins6800 near the antenna to stop common mode current using the coax as a path to equipment and to stop it messing up the radiation pattern of the antenna

Very interesting,

@watersstanton

9 күн бұрын

Glad you enjoyed it

A deceptively complex subject when you consider the safety, RF and to some extent lightning protection. I had one time did have bonding between various pieces of equipment but suspect it was largely a waste of time and certainly a nuisance if you are forever changing things. With the popular TNC-S wiring we use in the UK an antenna with a "ground" presents other problems.

@Pioneer936

9 күн бұрын

Would it be a waste of time under fault conditions ? am sure ensuring equipment are at the same potential Would be of some purpose

@g0fvt

9 күн бұрын

@@Pioneer936 bonding equipment chassis to each other should do no harm, but it can also mask other faults. A while back I had a piece of equipment with an IEC mains lead that resulted in the chassis floating due to some clown lifting the ground wire off in the plug. (A common hack with some test equipment). Of course the radio issue was usually masked by peripheral equipment having grounds.

@Pioneer936

9 күн бұрын

@@g0fvt nothing is perfect ,the rsgb clearly state its about minimising risk ,their info is very useful to stay safe and conform to the electrical regs

@g0fvt

8 күн бұрын

@@Pioneer936 there are certainly a number of common mistakes that are potentially dangerous.

@Pioneer936

8 күн бұрын

@g0fvt with the info available by rsgb I don't understand why