Drive is running in CLV mode, so drive speed is location sensitive. That it runs faster than 3x is simply the drive firmware can write at faster than the specified rate for the original media spec. Drive firmware also makes a difference, having a much larger cache means it can just store updates to the inner tracks for a few dozen blocks of data, then only update the FAT areas when the cache is getting full and it has to free up cache memory. You can also see the areas of changed material as it runs the head and it changes state. If you were formatted as a non journalled file system, or writing a single large stream of data there would be no slowing down with the overhead of updating file location pointers at end of blocks. There are Linux file systems that only update state at the end of a block operation, faster but a lot riskier data wise.

@Megatog615

5 жыл бұрын

I had a feeling it had something to do with the amount of cache memory. The Bluray drive probably has tons more cache ram to play with.

@mal2ksc

4 жыл бұрын

@Deon Denis Or power failure. Granted, if power failure is corrupting disks with any regularity, you have other problems to fix first, but it _is_ still a way to corrupt a disk without doing anything wrong.

@teaser6089

3 жыл бұрын

@Deon Denis It has nothing with Blaming a file system for user error, noting the fact that such a file system has a higher risk of errors is just stating a fact. Has nothing to do with blame.

@ionottoi

2 жыл бұрын

at least the 2/3 times when the laser went to the center was the defect management doing his work into the primary spare area (trigger >= 8 PIF), cause the disk is... aaaaah 3:10 / 32:08 so...

@Biaanca5036

Жыл бұрын

It might be that it's FAT32 formatted instead of UDF. It probably has to stop after every filewrite just to append the file table. UDF is supposedly wear-leveled and somewhat error-corrective in a way that _won't wear out a single spot on the dvdram,_ while FAT32 definitely could and cause a disc failure eventually because it wasn't meant to be used on a delicate CD

“Media from Grandpa’s funeral” i got the chills after reading that. so sorry for your loss :(

"I wonder if my laptop's drive does DVDRam..?" .. looks at side of laptop... .. .... ... .... "Hey, my laptop doesn't have a DVD drive!!!"

@markusTegelane

5 жыл бұрын

Lol true

@EvilishDem0nic8732WhatItDo

5 жыл бұрын

Same here, where did it go?

@blankpage9277

5 жыл бұрын

Mine has a spot where you could install one, but no drive. Just a plastic cover on the port opening...

@johnkolk

5 жыл бұрын

Mine has one of those "SuperDrive" things that can write anything other than Blu-Rays (It isn't that new)

@mal2ksc

4 жыл бұрын

@Another Channel You can get a caddy for about $10 that will let you install a second HDD or SSD in that space.

This video... long. Very long. The ramifications are unknown, but surely there will be some.

@anonharingenamn

5 жыл бұрын

RAMifications? hmm...

@hackguy25

5 жыл бұрын

the RAMifications? :D Edit: dammit, Jagh

@bobhumplick4213

5 жыл бұрын

its probalby spinning up to full speed for the verification process. so it writes the disc at slow speed and immediately reads it back at high speed. but somehow its able to write at the slower speed while the disk is spinning very fast. that would be my guess. putting many small files in larger zip files would help a lot probalby. edit: nevermind just got to the part where you did a large file. i guess it updates the FAT for every block or whatever

@sbblakey

5 жыл бұрын

uh-soos

@JDW-

5 жыл бұрын

If 36 minutes is considered "very long," my hour long walkthrough videos on iMac video card baking surely must cause Millennials to have spasms! :-)

Over the last few months and years I watched all of your videos and this one is especially nice. I love your videos, you really have a gift!

Just a personal observation - some CD/DVD/Blu-Ray drives really don't like when you operate them without the top cover. Once I was doing some project with an CD drive that had it's enclosure removed, and I discovered that I could have introduced reading error every time when I moved my desk lamp over the opened drive during operation. I guess it depends on the quality of the drive (anti reflection coating on the lens, IR filter, quality of photo-receptor in the laser caddy etc.). Just saying.

@chrisbalfour466

5 жыл бұрын

True, but it's for slightly unintuitive reasons. It depends on the spectrum of the light source and not its intensity. A true green LED flashlight shouldn't interfere, even if you shine it an inch above where the laser is reading a spinning disc (any disc; Bluray, CD or DVD). Even if the green LED is a blue LED with a green phosphor, it'll probably be okay to shine on a CD/DVD being read, just maybe not a Bluray. The advantage/reason for a green phosphor is it allows a wider variety of green hues to be manufactured cheaply and possibly a higher intensity green than a true green LED can emit. A true amber/orange LED should be okay, but some exotic blue diode with orange phosphor based LED could interfere with both blue and red lasers (blue from the blue LED and red from a broad orange phosphor). Since non-phosphor based LEDs are so monochromatic, RGB white could be made with a Red and Blue that are selected to not interfere with the wavelength of the red and blue lasers. Even though it's possible, the color rendering index will probably be bad. Get a handheld diffraction grating based spectroscope like the kind used in science classes (they're about ten bucks) if you intend to test lights for interference, or if you want to make an RGB light that wont interfere. Or, just because they're handy on rare occasions. The angle of the light, labels on discs and other factors can also prevent interference, but that's not really an exception to interference. P.S. In the future, I expect manufacturers to start making ultra-super-bright-eyeball-melting LEDs by substituting a blue laser diode for the blue LED with whatever phosphor to get the color they want. At that point they're arguably not LEDs, but marketing and manufacturers don't care about details like that if they're still functionally interchangeable. And it could be a blue laser pumped by a blue LED, so technically it would be a hybrid.

@aris95

5 жыл бұрын

That's probaly true. At least it is not designed to work uncovered and there are warnings not to operate without cover.

@terrytipper2141

4 жыл бұрын

All optical drives are not intended to operate normally when open, therefore you cannot expect normal behaviour during these tests. For what its worth, I suggest that you revisit the tests with the room lights out, a low lux video camera, and if necessary an infra-red illuminator adjusted to give minimum illumination across the drive rather than directly onto it!

My random guess as to why the BluRay does less of the speeding up, is because maybe the players come with more RAM of their own? Seeing as BluRay is quite a data stream, the laser has to be able to absorb it all in a short amount of time, so i was thinking maybe it has some cache.

@SpotTiger

5 жыл бұрын

Oh, yeah! The cache size may have to do something with that! I wonder how is the data processed... Could it be shoved into the drive processed, or does it need to be drip fed... Hmm...🤔

@fffUUUUUU

5 жыл бұрын

Yep, I was thinking about buffer size, as well

@andrewsprojectsinnovations6352

4 жыл бұрын

That's just what I was about to comment as well; the Blu-Ray drive can probably just cache a lot more inner-track writes into a single operation.

@CotyRiddle

4 жыл бұрын

higher transfer rate at a slower disc speed. nothing to do with cache size

@williamreid6255

2 жыл бұрын

Do a lot of Blu-ray players, like, read ahead on, say, the movie that you’re about to watch in case the disc is scratched or something? I’ve only experienced a major delay with one Blu-ray player, the one at my grandparents’ house, and my dad explained that it’s probably try to get up to a gig or so of information of the video file before it can actually play. Also, do Blu-ray discs play back in CLV so they can be much more efficient of the disc’s actual physical space? I only know about this because of Alec’s series on Laserdisc, of course, but if that’s the case with Blu-rays, I wonder if all digital data has the added advantage of being able to freeze-frame any part of the movie like you can on CAV Laserdiscs.

The easiest way to tell if a drive supports DVD-RAM is to look for the "DVD Multi Recorder" logo on the front. If it has that, it should support it. Also, that slim drive *does* sound to me like it's running at the proper speed - 3x CLV (for DVD) might only be 1800 RPM at the outer edge, but at the inner edge it's 4500 RPM. Another way of looking at it is that 3x at the inner edge is equivalent to 7.5x at the outer edge, and these slim drives usually have an 8x maximum DVD speed. It's also important that the drive writes at the proper speed for the disc - being a rewritable disc, attempting to write at lower than the correct speed does not work, so the drive *has* to spin back up to write near the inner edge after writing to the outside.

@Stoney3K

5 жыл бұрын

The point is that DVD-RAM is not a linear medium but a sector-based medium like a floppy or a hard disk, so it should be running at CAV. That's also why all of the sectors are arranged the way you see them, the inner tracks have less sectors on them than the outer sectors leading to a staggered pattern. Because it's an optical medium, it's not possible for the data density at the center to be larger than the data density on the edge, like is possible on a magnetic medium.

@WizardNumberNext

5 жыл бұрын

actually you have touch same subject I touched in my comment have a read

@PhilipChung76

5 жыл бұрын

Ah, my blu-ray writer has DVD Multi Recorder logo on it (as well as the +R logo). One thing I wonder is how popular re/writable blu-ray discs are. I've never used one myself, but 25GB on a single layer disc seems to be pretty good and AU$20 for a pack of five seems pretty good. Not as convenient as a flash drive though and not a lot of new off-the-shelf machines have optical drives anymore.

@aprilkolwey4779

5 жыл бұрын

​@@Stoney3K Try any DVD-RAM drive you want, version 2.2 (5x) or earlier, and I can guarantee you it'll be (somewhat) CLV at least for writing. The reason isn't related to how the data is laid out on the disc, but rather how rewritable media works in general - the material needs the proper heating for the proper *time* (time is very important) to make or erase a mark. These time requirements place restrictions on the data rate the drive can write at, and especially for lower-speed discs, form a rather narrow range of acceptable speeds. And yes, I know DVD-RAM does use ZBR (different zones with different sector counts, increasing towards the outer edge). This results in the spindle speed changing in small "steps" as the drive moves through the disc but doesn't fundamentally change the fact that the spindle speed does need to change. Most magnetic media uses ZBR as well, though it's not necessary for the spindle speed to change there as magnetic media does not have the same time requirements as rewritable optical media.

@CanuckGod

4 жыл бұрын

@@PhilipChung76 Rewritable Blu-ray discs (BD-RE, for REwritable), not so much, but I have a BD-R drive that I used to use more for writing discs to play in my Blu-ray players and PS3 as well as a few hundred blank BD-Rs. I don't use that drive nearly as much anymore since most of the stuff I watch is on my media server (and I have a HTPC on my main entertainment TV with its own BD-R drive) but I have backed up some of the lesser to moderately important data I have to the more reliable BD-Rs amongst my collection - due to the inorganic alloys used in most BD-Rs as opposed to organic dyes used in CD-R/DVD-R (and also BD-R LTH [low-to-high] discs), the longevity of all but the shoddiest BD-R discs can last from 30 to 50 years.

Ever thought about doing a video on how the cubbies behind you are set up? I'm interested in how you backlight it in particular. I love the concept.

@altarismichaelszone2747

3 жыл бұрын

And 2 year later, he made today a video about it

@GoAskAliceDrury

3 жыл бұрын

Your wish has been granted. *stops the timer*

For some reason this is the more interesting side of you.

@maltoNitho

5 жыл бұрын

True. The off-the-cuff videos are "more real" than any of the produced videos. Neither are bad though.

@SpotTiger

5 жыл бұрын

@@maltoNitho Good Lord! How dare you both suggest that this intellectual is in any way less than captivating! How preposterous! 🧐 *JAMES! Fetch the car! We're leaving!*

@maltoNitho

5 жыл бұрын

rayman1113 Nailed it. Lol.

@davidcogdill300

3 жыл бұрын

Part of me likes the informality and sillier manner (now just how silly the main channel can be is up for debate), but I think PART of the interest of this channel comes because he talks more personally and less like an essay- which means the ratio of his views and experiences expressed to actual factual stuff is a little higher

So, here's my thoughts on this: DVD Spec for 1x is 1600 RPM to 570 RPM. This means 3x speed is 4,800 RPM near the disc hub, and 1710 RPM near the outer ring of the disc. When you are reading a disc, you can read the disc a pretty much any RPM anywhere on the disc, assuming the disc is stable, and you don't go outside of spec for the sensors/motor/etc. When you are burning though, the media has to be exposed to a very specific amount of laser energy to phase change the material correctly. The amount of energy received on the media from a laser is a function of the power output from the laser, the size of the focal area of the laser, and the linear speed of the media moving past the laser. The stronger the laser intensity, the more power is delivered. The tighter the focal area, the more energy is delivered per unit of area. The slower the linear speed of the media (and therefore longer exposure to the laser per unit of area), the stronger the energy received. There are a number of variables that have to be controlled for when the drive determines effective power levels before burning. On writable discs, there is an area in the pregap that the drive can practice on to calibrate the laser for the media. After that calibration is completed though, the parameters for the laser power are set. This constrains the other parameters the drive can vary during the burn. So, the drive will calculate a power level to erase, a power level to write high, a power level to write low, etc. And that power level is not necessarily linear, so you can't necessarily interpolate between 1x speed power and 3x speed power to determine what 2x power should be. This means you can't spin the disc at a constant 1710 RPM when writing the outer area of the disc to get 3x there, and when you need to write the directory info near the hub of the disc keep the RPM at 1710 and write at 1.06x speed. You can get away with that kind of stuff when reading a disc, just maintain a constant RPM and seek all over the place reading at different speeds because it is quicker than spinning up and slowing down. That strategy doesn't work when writing, because the power levels would be constantly changing, and the fidelity of the written signal would be very poor at best case, or the media could be destroyed worse case. Just imagine trying to design a drive firmware that can continually adjust power levels from the laser (assuming it is even physically possible to control it like that), and write at any possible speed between 1X and 3X, so that at any time, anywhere on the disc, the drive could immediately begin writing without waiting for the RPM to stabilize. I agree that would be VERY cool to do, but as you mentioned in the other video, DVD-RAM wasn't really taking off anyway, so the company that made the drive couldn't justify the extra development time for a selling point that most people wouldn't care about, or at least wouldn't understand.

@aprilkolwey4779

5 жыл бұрын

Yep, it's tricky enough for write-once discs and only gets worse for rewritable (including DVD-RAM) - not only do rewritable discs need specific power levels, but they need specific *times* as well. Spin the disc slower, and the marks get accidentally erased as they're written. Spin it faster, and areas that should be light aren't, if you even manage to write anything at all.

@seraphina985

4 жыл бұрын

@@aprilkolwey4779 I can't help but wonder with the timings whether there are quite likely physical limitations involved in how fast the substrate can undergo whatever physical state change that is going on to actually encode a bit into the physical state of the media. Hell this is a very real factor even in purely solid state media like RAM as there are still physical processes going on at the quantum mechanical level and there is a minimum time for operations to become coherent change the inputs on the address or data lines too fast and the result becomes far more probabilistic and quantum mechanical than the desired deterministic and classical output you intended.

@FerralVideo

2 жыл бұрын

Interesting! I know that for some drives that are operating near their motor's RPM limit, but can reach a higher data rate near the edge, they will set several "zones". So for about the first third, it'll run at 4x. Then reach a point, rev the motpr back up to full, and run at 6x for a while. Then rec up to full speed again after a bit, and run at 8x until the disc end.

Given how this is not a new video, someone may have already mentioned this, but your issues with formatting the DVD-RAM on XP may be because CD burning is enabled. It sounds counter-intuitive, but I had to do it to format my DVD-RAM disc. To disable it, right click the drive and go to properties, it should be in one of the tabs there.

This puts me to sleep so well for whatever reason and it's great thank you

I thought DVD-RAM uses zones of CLV sectors so it needs to change speeds depending where on the disc they are. Faster near the center, slower at the outer edge. If the format were CAV, the sector markers would be in a radial line from the center with the same number of sectors per track/rotation. But if you look at the sector markers, there are fewer sectors near the middle, more nearer the edge, so CLV. Basically like CLV LaserDiscs but the sector zones are more obvious. It can't use the same speed by design.

@IDoNotLikeHandlesOnYT

4 жыл бұрын

But it should still be able to write a given track at a slower speed than that track is designed for, just by slowing down the bits going to the laser diode, right?

@pilotavery

4 жыл бұрын

It can write data at a slower speed, or should be able to. if it had a bigger cash or was it more expensive Drive than it could write more files before I have to write the boot record

@0x8badf00d

3 жыл бұрын

@@IDoNotLikeHandlesOnYT Yes, but the laser power probably needs to be adjusted.

I think the difficulties encountered are the meat of this video. It easily shows that not all drives will behave or play nicely with DVD-RAM disks. I watched you first video on this topic and it gave me an idea of a solid media I can store images on for long term and as a tertiary backup. SSDs can fail and flash drives can fail, probably more frequently depending on use. Thanks for this. I have purchased one dual sided disk to see if I can get it to work. Great job and thanks for your content.

I really like the format of the stuff on this channel, it compliments your other channel very nicely! Good work!

This explains so much, I used to think that I f**ked up my computer for asking it to save things onto a disc, now I know years later that I’m not the culprit

Such memories! I used DVD-RAM for backup for a small company. Some of the things you endured were due to XP which I never used. Try Linux drivers and you won't see these weird speed deviations. Great videos!

I don't know if I should be worried that I find so much enjoyment watching that little red dot going back and forth as the disk is written. These electro-mechanical storage mediums (including tape) just have character.

This has become my favorite youtube channel. You're an extremely engaging host.

Hi ,you are one of my favorite people, I like your content ,very sarcastic , funny and professional. Keep the good 👍 Job.

This is the first time I've watched a video in 2x speed, worked very well for this format.

@JunafaniFIN

5 жыл бұрын

But did you speed up every time you had to return to start of the video?

@Blurns

5 жыл бұрын

I have a hard time watching videos at regular speed anymore.

Asus comes from Pegasus, so I guess it's supposed to sound like that word.

The "unprepared" format is a nice change of pace (not to say I don't like the others!), keep up the great work. :)

5:20 Your computer may be at risk! Poor Windows XP. 😂

@markusTegelane

5 жыл бұрын

Your computer *might* be at risk

@LiEnby

5 жыл бұрын

God I allways had that error

Was waiting for the disc to fly out when it spun up lol, great video

Computer at 31:00 - "Copy operation failed. This file could not be modified." Our charming host 7 seconds later - "Doesn't look like anything's happening..." Me - "I do believe you're correct there." XD

NeroDriveSpeed, slow that mad drive down.

@robindp

5 жыл бұрын

+zx8401ztv -- You beat me to it - Nero DriveSpeed would help correct this issue.

@zx8401ztv

5 жыл бұрын

Robin Persaud, i used to have one of those mad 40+ drives years ago and it was really annoying when it was determined to go warp 9. It damaged disks and wasted so much time. DriveSpeed helped a lot. Older slower drives often did the job better without all the messing around.

@darinb.3273

4 жыл бұрын

I have Nero I've never tried using during a burn disc ... my impression was that was for reading processes ... some functions of Nero locks the drive ... if memory serves me correctly burning is one that Nero locks the drive so programs such as drive speed can NOT influence the drive's speed ... I may be wrong though LOL I remember you can tell Nero at which speed you want to burn a disc (it depends on the drive itself as well)

Thanks for the great details. Would love to see more on your old process moving analog video to digital!

This must be the one time in history that cancelling a write session took less time than letting it finish.

I spy some Red Alert 2 on that old netbook!

@Krutonium

3 жыл бұрын

And RollerCoaster Tycoon!

Love your content. Thanks!!!

Could you make a video on BD-RE which is the equivalent Blu-ray spec, up to 100GB of Re-writable space

I had that exact Netbook and it was awesome! Back when I was in college, I had my desktop running in my room and had the predecessor to OneDrive which was Microsoft Sync and it would allow you to sync files between two systems without having to push them to the cloud storage so I would take that netbook to class and type notes on it and then have them on my desktop when I would get back. Kind of a server-client setup but VPN-less because it was done by an agent on both systems. Mine came with XP as well, but I ultimately upgraded the hard drive in the netbook to a 32GB SSD and increased the RAM in it and got Windows 7 Home running on it and disabled windows aero on it and changed the theme to Windows 7 basic and it ran pretty well. Pretty cool seeing this one on your video and still running!

The thing is, the drive itself doesn't have the context to know that it's only going to write a single sector at the spindle. I suspect the desktop drives have stronger motors so they can spin up and down faster. That does require a lot more power which probably is a limitation on external drives. They may also have slightly smarter firmware that can be adjusting the spin rate while stepping which would reduce the delays too. There is another factor that makes a big difference, though: caching. If the OS caches the file system metadata, then there is less seek time involved since that would reduce the writes to "track 0". Also, drive level caching can potentially do some reordering of physical writes so there would potentially need to be a lot fewer seeks (and associated speed changes) for physical writing.

Yeah, these problems make me realize how much better USB sticks are! Long Live DVD-RAM, though.

I still have DVD-RAM's with various shows I recorded from the television years ago using a Panasonic recorder. I can play them back on my laptop using the built-in CD/DVD drive which also supports DVD-RAM and using the VLC media player app. If I wanted to copy a full DVD-RAM to the desktop of my computer, it would take about 25 minutes to transfer.

@dejohnson65

5 жыл бұрын

Wow! I never knew that there was a way to play DVD-RAM videos on a PC... I guess this is yet another reason to love VLC. I guess I haven't really looked into it for awhile... Just plain had given up... I loved my Pana Recorder, it was way better than tape, since you could erase individual shows to make space for new ones...

Thank you for uploading.

I'm starting to like your TC2 vids more then your TC1 vids... IDK why love your work though on both channels!!

One of the most interesting videos I've ever seen!

Your video just reminded me that i have a DVD-RAM laying aroud somewhere. So I tried it after many years, still works. I was excited what i would find on it. Nah nothing special, just a trailer of Matrix Revolutions for some reason. I like just have one but i like the format, its a pretty shiny disc in a nice caddy. Nice video btw!

Poop and laughter made me laugh pretty hard. The dichotomy of that phrase and what you WANTED to say is hilarious.

Excellent video! I remember burning some photos to a DVD RAM for a friend a couple of years ago and my LG Blu-ray burner would also act strangely in Win7, sometimes crashing. I eventually worked out that I had to manually set the write speed in NERO to get a reliable burn. Pain in the bum!

It always fascinated me how beautiful dvd ram is.

I like your desktop wallpaper btw, nice video too!

Been using optical media since ~1993. Not sure which drives supported DVD-RAM though since, as a format/media it wasn't very popular for PC applications in the UK (as far as I'm aware - I worked in the PC industry here from 1997-2007). Zip drives however were heavily marketed, including by my company. DVD-RAM support was never even a discussion to be honest. Edit: Should probably have mentioned that I enjoyed both the main and second channel videos on this topic, and on many other topics. Thanks for the great content :-)

@TheFilwud

5 жыл бұрын

Panasonic always championed DVD-RAM, I think it was a format they developed. Most if not all Panasonic manufactured DVD drives can handle a DVD-RAM disc, I am not sure what other makes did, I know I had a Toshiba DVD-RAM video recorder so if Toshiba made DVD drives they probably also made DVD-RAM compatible drives.

And here I thought old junk/tech could never be interesting... Subbed!

Thank you for informing us about the DVD RAM, I always thought it was proprietary to Panasonic drives!

Thank you so much for those valuable experiments. Testing on Linux would be very interesting to see.

@Technology Connections 2 You should check out the file copy utility TeraCopy. Would give you more information and more control over your transfers. Great job on this extra content! It's weird admitting that I like this overly complicated explanation. Cheers!

As a teen and many years ago I allways wanted to boot my pc from a DVD-RAM Disc.

@mikeholbrough7723

4 жыл бұрын

hehe, I do boot my PC from DVD-RAM sometimes :-)

@Leela_X

4 жыл бұрын

@@mikeholbrough7723 With read write filesystem on disc?

@mikeholbrough7723

4 жыл бұрын

@@Leela_X Yes. Using Ext2 format and isolinux - I have several full systems on dvd-ram for emulation - boot straight into linux running the emulator of my choice.

I can't believe this didn't catch on, it truly works like a removable disk/disc.

Ahh... those spinning sounds the optical drives do, brings me back good (and bad) memories!

Journal file systems have to check the file after every right and then verify it and then write down its location on the boot record as a successful burn. It is faster to do it all at once but it means that if the burn is interrupted, then the disk doesn't have a record of the file and has to restart at the last boot record or journal entry.

Hell yeah a second channel. Subbed. 🙌😁

I found some of these DVD-RAM disks at my job in 2018(we have drawers full of old stuff). I put it in a DVD drive and it worked. I wrote some videos to it and it worked fine. When I tried to write a folder with a bunch of files the drive damn near caught fire. Thank God for USB flash drives.

I LOVE the longer videos

If you revisit this you should see how Linux fairs in the testing.

@torstenwinkel2183

5 жыл бұрын

DVD-RAM works fine on Linux. In the past the UDF-Driver was not part of every mainstream distro (i.e. Slackware), but after compiling it, it worked fine. Using other file systems (ext2, fat32, ...) worked out of the box, if I remember correctly.

@torstenwinkel2183

5 жыл бұрын

Little correction: the filesystem driver is in the kernel, just the commandline tools have to be added to Slackware, but reading and writing UDF, fat32, ... works out of the box

@heto795

5 жыл бұрын

Windows uses write-through caches by default on removable drives, whereas Linux uses the same kind of write-back caches as are used on fixed drives. As a result, Linux should be able to bunch together writes of more than one file without going to update the metadata after each single file, and as a result should be much faster. Just check that your distro doesn't use the sync mount option. You could also try going to device manager and turning on write-back cache for the DVD drive on Windows. On Windows 8.1, this seems to be on the Policies tab in the device properties, at least for USB drives. I don't see it for my DVD drive, but I don't know if it supports DVD-RAM or if the tabs would change if I inserted a DVD-RAM disc. The reason Windows does this is so people can remove their USB drives (and floppies etc.) without using the safe removal feature and still usually have their files intact. On a DVD drive software is in control of when the disc gets ejected, so there should be no reason to use write-through caches, but possibly Windows does not take this into account and just uses write-through caches on all removable drives.

@PainterVierax

5 жыл бұрын

Jamin, since ChromeOS is based on the Linux kernel it should have behave correctly as Torsten and Henri said. That's kinda weird that Alec couldn't write on with its Chromebook, maybe Google removed this part on kernel compilation to shrink its size.

@izimsi

5 жыл бұрын

@@PainterVierax I think the filesystem the recorder used might be read-only. Or maybe it's not even a real filesystem, but just a dvd-video?

35:24 The read graph suggests constant linear velocity as the read speed has plateaued, as opposed to the near linear increase at the start which suggests constant angular velocity as read speed and thus linear velocity is increasing.

My guess is because the Bluray drive would have a much larger cache for buffering the larger files off of a bluray disc, so it would be able to cache larger chunks of data. That would allow it to reference the sector data less frequently.

I had an Acer Aspire One, except mine was blue. It was the only computer I had at that period in my life. Mine had a puny 1024x600 display, but I made it work, if you can believe it, and I wrote code on it all night, on that tiny little keyboard. This was back in 2009. Memories!

Great series of videos on this subject. Speaking of stupid firmware my friend had a btc brand drive that if it had problems reading a disc instead of waiting for it to slow down it would spin it to warp speed and then eject and launch the disc across the room. And this was not a failed or weak laser but a known fault.

I used to have the same or similar laptop of the Acer Aspire and as a kid i absolutely loved the crap out of it. Such a good laptop with a great keyboard.

There should definetly be a youtube award for the best title 😄

I love the fourth wall breaking.

I am still using an optical drive, mainly a blu-ray reader since i love watching blu-ray movies, good picture quality and not to mention the DTS

8:26 Unplugging the drive usually solves that problem especially if it stops responding. Essentially it causes the operating system (windows in your case, linux mint in my case) to wait indefinitely until the drive reports back, which it never does. As soon as it's unplugged, it gives an error, and everything resumes.

If I recall, I actually used to use a utility that could artificially cap the read/write speed of my drive for noise reasons. I wonder if that would actually help the slimdrive as a side effect.

Looks like I’m not the only one favoring having two optical drives in my desktop computer. I got two Asus BD drives installed, one of them was from a previous computer and the new one I bought especially for burning M-Disc media. I really like optical media, I treasure my Pioneer DVD DVR as it’s a great piece of conversion technology for transferring analogue video to the digital domain. I wish modern computers still had floppy interfaces on their motherboards but sadly the disappeared about 10 years ago. A good reason to keep some older PC’s around.

Props for stating that DVD-RAM is "wicked slow". As a fellow New Englander, the term "wicked" is entirely underutilized outside of the Notheast.

@mal2ksc

4 жыл бұрын

And pretty much its exact equivalent in Northern California would be "hella".

It looks like the slim drive's firmware uses constant linear velocity (CLV) which keep the write speed consistent during the burn. This would make sense if the media has both an upper and lower limit for burn speed.

Do not forget the difference in speed between a SATA drive and an USB one.

@PainterVierax

5 жыл бұрын

Since we talk about less than 10MB/s I'm not sure if the speed connection is relevant at this point. There was IDE (PATA) DVD burner back in the days and they performed at more than 3x As others said, the cache on the drive seems to be the major bottleneck.

@omgwtfbbqstfu

5 жыл бұрын

@degru5091 Many usb dvd drives require the power adapter or a second plug on the Y usb cable for two ports worth of power to burn, reading with 1 is fine. I have the asus one, also the full size usb 3.0 bluray external which is faster in every way and has its own power brick. Laptop style drives are just slow.

@mal2ksc

4 жыл бұрын

If you're nowhere near max bandwidth, all a SATA-USB interface does is add a bit of latency.

I should say, GNU/Linux supports DVD-RAM out of the box.

@mikeholbrough7723

4 жыл бұрын

and handles it a LOT better than Windows does!

the drive speed issues are implementations of power management , and CAV and CLV modes

I wonder, does anyone remember the Nero InCD tool? It allowed to format even regular CD-RW discs to UDF FS and then use them just like DVD-RAM (it was possible to write/delete files on the disc using any program, just like with flash drive. And it required a driver to read the disc (the driver for a CD disk!), which was burned to the CD itself and was the only data available on the disc w/o the driver)

@EmuAGR

Жыл бұрын

Two years later: I used to do many tests with Nero InCD when I was a teenager, it was amazing but I needed InCD installed on all the computers I wanted que CD-RW to be read on. I just thought about it when I saw the UDF selection in the Windows format tool.

“We’ll see if windows can figure it out, NOPE” 😂

Thanks for another fun video. I dusted off my old DVD-RAM discs and did some poking around... I have a desktop ASUS drive that I love, except for DVD-RAMs apparently. Man, what an awful garbage fire. 1.5x erase, 0.7x erase. So much for 3x discs (verification, blah blah). I loved these when they came out but they don't hold a candle to anything else. It's funny how tech slingshots then stagnates. Thanks again for the ramble.

I had that same model netbook, the Acer Aspire One! Jeez, it ran everything I needed it to to back in 2009.

Also:it's nice to see and hear that a youtube is talking to a Person, and not to a zombie or a monkey. Feels conversationally, and not hypnotizing

Love this! I feel better now.....I have 3 PCs, 1 desktop, 2 laptops of varying ages ( not discussing the iPad and KindleFire), running various iterations of Windows, and I occasionally get them all up and running just for the sheer hell of seeing who can do what, and why. I just installed my scanner driver on all three, why not? Now I really want to get an external drive so I can load software on the drive less Windows 10 laptop....No, these drivers aren't on the web, at least for free... Photo editing software. Fun stuff to see other people doing these kinds of things, thanks!,, I should get maybe get out more, or some.

26:58 maybe that drive just save in the cache like the position of like 2 files and then writes both positions to the center of disc for making it faster?

The rotation speed isn't necessarily tied to the data rate of the disk reader. It could just have a less efficient pickup mechanism, and needs multiple passes to read one bit of data. LGR did a video on this.

30:10 - "Haaaayyyyy! Removable device detected!" I think he got way more excited about that than is socially acceptable. lol jk On a side note, I love this long-play format. I for one vote to keep making them from time to time alongside your regular videos.

@pghcoyote

5 жыл бұрын

Speaking of excited...just how you want them to be. 28:24

26:50, It could be chunking/binning/? multiple blocks of data at a time and writing tracking(?) information later, after each superblock. Each block is either 512 or 4096 bytes according to UDF specs.. (likely 4096 for DVD-RAM)

DVD-RAM was used a lot in the commercial sector and briefly in home use however failed to catch on. I have a Hitachi DVD camcorder that used 2.5 inch minidisc that worked great when used by itself but remember having to use special software to convert or read the VOB files from it to store on hard drives. Now I can not find new DVD-RAM minidisc anywhere!. It will record to DVD-R minidisc up to 4.7 GB (30 minutes only and not enough for most movies) Also the ram minidisc had a special cartridge like container where you could not touch the disc surface because they are not easy to clean.

ooh! i do still love my netbook, assumingly running with an n270 :) "inspiron mini 10v" with xubuntu/linux. it's my holiday machine to fiddle around with photos i've taken or check social media or so. still a loveable item with a cpu benchmark of 269 :D i doubled the ram and replaced my hdd by an ssd. it took me three of these with different kinds of physical defects to make my own and another one for a friend of mine, a year ago, as a christmas present. both perfectly intact. third one a whole mess of broken parts. she loved mine on holidays we spent together, that's why :) how cool you still have a netbook running, too! :')

OMG YOU HAVE ROLLER COASTER TYCOON ON YOUR NETBOOK!!!

Put linux on that netbook and be ready for a surprise!

@IncreasingVoltage

5 жыл бұрын

What linux would you recommend?

@abrundag

5 жыл бұрын

For the netbook Peppermint would be a good low-resource option. For the laptop with 4 gig of memory just about any distro would do. Linux Mint or Ubuntu would do just fine.

@SenileOtaku

5 жыл бұрын

That's what I have set up on my KAV60 (might be the model he has). Linux Mint 19.1. Biggest disadvntage is finding a browser that will run on it that still supports the Offline GoogleDocs extension (there still isn't a version for Firefox)

@alexanderdaum8053

5 жыл бұрын

​@@SenileOtaku Does it work with Chromium?

@hrnekbezucha

5 жыл бұрын

@@alexanderdaum8053 Yes.

All DVD/CDROM etc... use constant linear speed , that means that all of them change rotational speed depending on how far from the center they are to maintain a constant sector density. So, that speed-up/speed-down when writting is totally normal and unavoidable on FAT32 because the main fat block is at 0. That's the reason why there are other formats more appropiate for CD access. They usually have more index blocks scattered thru the disk, so the head doesn't have to move that much. The Desktop drive is just using a better motor, and has more cache.

A kind of rule of thumb I've discovered in regard to getting good DVD-RAM performance is to do a full erase before doing a full write. I use Easy CD C. but I suspect any optical drive writing software that allows for a "full erase" would do as well (as opposed to just doing an "erase" in Windows I mean, etc.)

@tinkerbot4148

Жыл бұрын

Oh how I used to love Easy CD creator before it turned into the appalling Roxio nightmare!!! That's when I moved onto Nero version 4. Now even Nero is a bloated nightmare.

one of the main reasons blocking dvd-ram was that you could use any file system with it, and that the "other" computer did support this files system out of the box unless it had the same operating system.

I actually have a dvd-ram based cnc computer. I was also weirded out by the drive behaviour. After some research, I realized my system has a "true" dvd-ram drive. In otherwords the buffer on the drive is massive in comparison to a standard dvd drive of the time. Also there was a bizarre pathway to faster discs that isn't related to the "x speed", listed on the disc itself. I.e. a 3x disc isn't what it says. My drive is a 16x, but it's an oddball and a dvd-ram only drive! Mine sounds like a turbine engine, but it's designed in my application for lots of 64k and under files.

The drive is speeding up and slowing down because of a quirk of how rewritable discs work. Burners are specified to write to rewriteable discs at certain speeds and not anything in-between. The supported rewrite speed is determined by the power of the laser in the drive. On a rewriteable disc, to set a bit to 0, it has to become non-reflective, which is achieved by heating the dye to a high temperature. To set a bit to a 1, it has to become reflective, which is achieved by heating the dye to a low temperature. When a disc is written, is is first erased by heating the region to low temperature, which makes it all reflective, then the disc makes a complete revolution around and is heated again only on the bits that are supposed to become "1"s. The drive is programmed to expect that the disc will cool a set amount between the time that it is heated to erase a bit and the time that it is heated to write a "1". If the disc is spinning more slowly though, the disc will have more time to cool, and therefore on the second pass the dye will not achieve as high a temperature, which may be below the minimum needed to write a non-reflective "1". This, as you can assume, would result in data corruption. Now, Windows can be more intelligent in writing the changes to the file allocation table all at once and then writing all the data at once, which would avoid this entire disk speedup/slowdown issue. However, Windows wants the operation to be able to be cancelled at any time without corrupting the disk, which requires writing one file at a time and thus the speedup/slowdown as the write head switches between the file allocation table and the data.

Changes speed to keep writing portion at a specific surface feet per minute

32:00 always wanted to try reading movies, jpegs, music from dvd-ram by means of my smartTV

Some points about the video. First the back-and-forth can be a result of operating system's way of handling things. Operating systems keep journals in the file systems to recover from power loss in order to avoid power losses. This limits the number of files/bytes that has been written in a single write. So it might be the reason of going back and forth. File system scheduler of Windows is not the best of its kind. You can try MacOS or Linux (ChromeOS uses completely software stack so it's not considered a "regular" Linux). But more importantly I think that the hardware buffers of optical drives play a bigger role here. They might be optimized for sequential reading since most of the variants are read that way. This also explains why Blu-Ray drive is much faster than DVD and doesn't go back-and-forth every so often. Since Blu-Ray discs has significantly more capacity and higher bitrates they need larger buffers. More buffer space means you can put many files to the buffer and schedule the writes in order to write sectors next to each other in a single run. However, the smaller buffer of DVD drives can only store a limited number of files which can cause many discrete writes. Finally, I want to say I love your videos. You're covering the technologies that fascinated me back then when I was a computer geek teenager. I wish that I wasn't a broke student and could be your patron. Please accept my appreciation for keeping your videos going.

@WizardNumberNext

5 жыл бұрын

FAT does not have journal, but you still need to write were files are same goes to UDF - just in case

@YaroKasear

5 жыл бұрын

Journals are a file system feature, not an operating system feature, and neither FAT nor UDF are journaling filesystems, so I doubt it's because of "how an operating system does things." FAT won't be journaled on Linux or Mac OS either because that's just not a feature of the file system. There's no generic "journal" an operating system uses for all filesystems, it's entirely based on the FS. It might have to do with Windows' I/O scheduler, but somehow I doubt it. What do you mean by "completely software stack?" Ther kernel is still software... Do you mean something like it does everything in userspace? I don't think that's true... Linux is not a microkernel, a lot has to be done by the Linux kernel even in ChromeOS and Android...

You can format drives in any Windows supported format thought diskpart, don't need XP for that. Just open diskpart (from the search or the cmd), type lis vol to list the volumes, sel vol X: to select the right volume and then for quick fs=FILESYTEM label=LABEL. You can type help from within the diskpart to learn more

Technology Connections 2? but it's always been Technology Connextras!

"Careful or else it might overcharge" "Wait what do you mean overcha-"

The only downside of this channel is no subtitles :P I had to wait until I wasn't in a silent environment. Great video!

@TechnologyConnextras

5 жыл бұрын

If it weren't so long, I would have transcribed it. But... it's just so long...

@WoLpH

5 жыл бұрын

@@TechnologyConnextras no need to worry about it. It just made me realize how happy I am with the perfect transcriptions on your main channel :)