A couple nuances to the list of meta decks shown at 7:19 in the video - The top deck also includes a Stage 2 evolution line in a support role, just not as the main attacker (main attacker is a Stage 1) The only decks in the top 10 that do not feature evolution to at least a Stage 1 equivalent are numbers 4 and 7.

@GrievelornTCG

Жыл бұрын

Thanks for the clarifications, I wanted to go more in-depth about the decks being ran and the usefulness of the stage 1+ lines but felt like it was bloating out the video a bit. I could have been more clear about the attacker role for the Stage 2 line in the list I had points out.

@benjamingrove47

Жыл бұрын

@@GrievelornTCG Makes sense. Overall, you're right on the money in how evolution isn't as big of a payoff in Pokemon right now. With the return of Rule Box Pokemon evolving from 1-prize basics/stage1s in Scarlet/Violet I think evolution might be back as a top threat (like it was in the GX era or ex era)

Very impressed with the knowledge base on display! Thanks for the review on Nostalgix! Keep an eye on future heroes from us that allow a more digimon-esk evolution. We’re constantly innovating with hero and arena design to mess with game rules done right out there.

I love the concept of Wager of Troupes. It's such a neat concept! That, and it looks like a professionally designed game.

Honestly, the fact that Pokémon TCG's evolution system is often not worth interacting with has been kinda visible from the start: early on Haymaker, a deck that relied entirely on strong Basic Pokémon, was considered one of the best decks at the time, with one of the few Stage-2s to be considered good being Blastoise, and that only being the case because Rain Dance (which let you attach any number of water energies to your Pokémon each turn instead of the usual 1) was so overpowered. Then there was the attempt to limit Trainer Cards to 15 per deck, which was tried once then never again. Eventually they just threw up their hands and started printing Evolved Pokémon as Basics (though they were ones with extra name gubbins like "Rocket's Scizor" or EX cards (not to be confused with ex cards, or Level X cards)).

@GrievelornTCG

Жыл бұрын

Yup, there have been a lot of "Big Basic" decks over the years. And whenever pokemon would try and make it easier for evolution decks to work, it generally ended up with cards either errata'd or just banned outright. Good observations.

@goncaloferreira6429

7 ай бұрын

just goes to show that things rarely go well at the first try. Still, despite the first formats being all about basics, contrary to what was intended, the game quickly evolved and has though the years offered a nice ebb and flow of evolutions being relevant.

Somewhere between Digimon and Pokemon is Fire Emblem Cipher. It also did the "You can just play this character straight up, or get a discount if you already have that named unit on the field that you're upgrading", with a couple key things worth considering: 1. Any time you promote (as opposed to deploying anew), you get to draw a card. This helps significantly reduce the "2-for-1'd" inherent in Evolution systems. 2. While you can only promote a character with cards of the same character, you can do so pretty freely, instead of in a predefined order. You can class change to a 'lower' version if you really want that version's effect, or even class change into that exact card again if you want to cycle and get a new card. (And there are some cards that 'count' the cards in their stack to trigger effects) 3. While you can only have one of each name of character on the field, if you _don't_ want to promote them with new copies you've drawn, extra copies of the card can be discarded in combat for benefits (or sometimes for special effects). At high level play you still usually only run with the specific intent of promoting your Main Character (who is permanent but always has to start as a 1 cost weenie), or promoting if there's some big bonus a character can access by pulling off that combo level up. However, when it lines up that a low level and high level card synergize well with your gameplan anyway, it's a benefit to run them as a team. And because the high cost variants are statted and costed according to their hard play rather than their discounted versions, it's still fine if you don't.

@GrievelornTCG

6 ай бұрын

This is a game I've been meaning to dig more into, thanks for sharing! That's an interesting pivot to the system. It seems like you make still end up with some amount of dead cards but partial digi is still better than no digi.

Yoooooo appreciate the name drop! Great video and expertly explained.

Great vid! One thing that's probably obvious but worth mentioning: evolving cards inherently sets you up for 2-for-1s or 3-for-1s. They're like auras in a magic-style game. This is less important in Pokémon due to the bonkers level of search and draw, and it sounds like Digimon gives you the cards back, but without systems like that, the blowout potential is real.

Good breakdown my dude. What's next? Yugioh normal summon?

@GrievelornTCG

Жыл бұрын

Either that or some kind of resource system

While it's not entirely the same, a lot of Japanese TCGs are what I'd call "Avatar games" which typically have evolution. Games like Vanguard, Wixoss or Buddyfight, where you have one specific "avatar" card that remains in play through the entire game since it can't be removed from the field, and steadily levels up as the game state progresses, usually using a separate deck to store its upgraded forms. This doesn't inherently go one to one with the Pokemon-style concept but it is a way to include a sort of "card that steadily powers up." Couple flaws are that 1. It can make games feel samey to always get the same stage at the same fixed interval, and 2. It requires fundamentally making an avatar game which you may not want to do. I think a lot of the avatar style games are derived in part from recognizing benefits that Yu-Gi-Oh had with its Extra Deck. Though Yu-Gi-Oh not really knowing what to do with the Extra Deck for a while and speeding up the game have made it also feel less special. Shooting Star Dragon as the big boss monster of the Synchron deck [during the 5D's era, not the modern version] is an example - you'd probably make a Stardust because it was a good card and let it fight it out on the field. If you had the opportunity to make a level 2 Synchro, you'd go into a Formula Synchron and go up to Shooting Star Dragon. You wouldn't see Shooting Star Dragon or even Stardust in every duel, but it was consistent enough that if you needed to, you could make it happen. I might be biased since that's a game and an era I like a lot, but it probably was one of the better ways that a non-avatar style game has been able to implement "monster evolution."

Great video. I believe everyone is behind when it comes to stealing game mechanics. Digimon is head and shoulders above everyone else when it comes to how innovative its evolution system is and we'll likely see tcg's like it in the future. Also you should check out Grand Archive which has a level up system that works similarly to Akora in that you draw "evolutions" from a separate deck.

@GrievelornTCG

Жыл бұрын

Thank you! I am careful with just calling using game mechanics as stealing, very few games have completely unique systems and realistically if something isn't broken then don't fix it. But it's when it is broken, and they don't fix it that I'd like to point it out. Grand Archive is on my list to check out, I've heard mix things about the gameplay that is currently developed and that the rules are still being changed up. I may wait to close to release so that I can 1. have cards, and 2. have the ruleset that may be close to finalized. But I was trying to stick with games that are actually out instead of what may not be out yet, as things can change before release.

First video I am seeing by you. Really liked it. I am working on a card game with evolutions so it really puts things into perspective

@GrievelornTCG

Жыл бұрын

Thanks! Hopefully there was something of value in it for ya

i like that you went full in depth with this one, actually comparing and contrasting different games. While people like to give a hard time to the older games( mtg and pokemon) there is no doubt of their influence. regarding pokemon: once more we see that a good first idea on paper may turn out not as expected when the game is actually player. we touch on the idea of consistence and i would add the importance of competitive play in the development of games. some players can just push the game in a completely different direction that developers might want. Like mtg pokemon has worked out many of its initial problems and is a sucessfull if simple game to this day. its core ideas limited the game concerning development of more variety and i often wish they had the courage to try new things. Also friendly reminder that pokemon today is not just one thing. there are many ways to play the game and that is great. in some of them the evolution idea is more sucessful than others. dual monsters later solved pokemon´s prize system, making it more logical and a comeback/balancing mechanic.

This video is good.

So basically akora has the yugioh extra deck?

@GrievelornTCG

7 ай бұрын

Yup, however it's where all your creatures are. Which is good seeing as the game has in deck lands like MTG. Helps keep the deck thin to find the lands to play the Creatures.

I feel like pokemon was originally made to maximize randomness. Which was probably a foolish attempt to mirror mtg land system as a variation.