People will go to any length to deny God's sovereignty in favor of their own autonomy.

@jessejimenez1793

2 жыл бұрын

Good That very good bro. straight to the jugular...very good, ...

@Jebron_G

Жыл бұрын

Are you saying if man chooses to disobey God, God's sovereignty is compromised?

@jermoosekek1101

7 ай бұрын

@@Jebron_GGod can decree sin.

@Jebron_G

5 ай бұрын

God's sovereignty decreed that man have free will. A Gid less sovereign would be afraid to do so. You degrade God's sovereignty with your doctrine!!

Flowers tends to teach by analogy, rather than directly dealing with the text. His fans agree with his analogies, believing they are agreeing with Scripture. His arguments are being spread by his fans; I have encountered them more than once. Sooner or later, these fans appeal to Flowers’ authority, by directing me to his website or his videos.

@jalapeno.tabasco

4 ай бұрын

provisionism dies with leighton and his friends it won't last longer than a few more decades it's just a semi pelagian anti Calvinist fad

I don't know how anyone can reject the clear biblical exegesis from James White. How could he in any way explain it more plain and clearly?

@thedonsj2172

3 жыл бұрын

Some of us can see the arrogance and the closedminded interpretation that comes from James. I come from a faith with the same mindset. Trust me, its hard to se unless you see the mistakes is in the structure. To find favorite verses is not har with the bible, watch james against gregg Stanford on Jesus statement on the only true god.... And See james hiphop around the question (and no IM not in gregg side) if you look the arrogance and the Feeling of absolut being right, is clearly se en.

@leonelugal5684

3 жыл бұрын

@@thedonsj2172can I ask you where did your Free Will started?

@apilkey

3 жыл бұрын

You mean eisegesis. Giving his personal and private opinion is not exegesis.

@thedonsj2172

3 жыл бұрын

@@apilkey where did I say was?? But do you think a persons ego can influenca it. But no James have no ego, right. If you cant har it, your deaf.

@apilkey

3 жыл бұрын

@@thedonsj2172 You’re responding to the wrong guy I agree with you lol

Leighton is a humanist, pelagianist.

@tomtemple69

6 ай бұрын

yup, Jordan B Cooper, a Lutheran, exposed him in 2 videos

Those like Leighton Flowers will resort to anything rather than accept the teaching of Scripture.

So nice to listen to someone who speaks with sincerity and TRUTH.

@arnolddonaldson7129

3 жыл бұрын

Not really. This is what people aren't tell you. There are hundreds of free will Scriptures for every supposed predestination Scripture. The Calvinist God is not the God of the Bible. One should use the entire Bible to interpret Ephesians 1,2, Romans 9, and John 6. One should not use Romans 9 to interpret the entire Bible. I hope you see the difference.

@apilkey

3 жыл бұрын

Yes it’s refreshing to hear Leighton to be speaking the truth against the false gospel of Calvinism.

@billyr9162

3 жыл бұрын

@@arnolddonaldson7129 There are no free will scriptures. You need to listen to this video. No one has the ability. No one. Freewill killed completely.

@jessejimenez1793

2 жыл бұрын

@@arnolddonaldson7129 We can do theology in one or two verses, using exegesis, understanding the context, and see that they do not contradict other scriptures but you use passages, which you only use to support your belief of the autonomy of man, and end up contradicting the bible...that bad real bad...you’ll find a very hot spot in hell, I prey that you all are saved and i hope that all, have not entered through the back door to the place of the true sheep

@jessejimenez1793

2 жыл бұрын

@@arnolddonaldson7129 And those few passages you ignore, it is enough two passages to do theology, if you do exegesis correctly of those two passages, but you do not care about doing exegesis of any passage....where these passages flatly speak that the sovereignty of God is above the will of man and the devil, ...there cannot be two sovereigns, there is only one and that is God, good and bad come from God ... LAMENTATIONS 3:38 .... Ecclesiastic 11: 14-15-17 Everything comes from God: The good and bad, life and death, poverty and wealth, wisdom, understanding, knowledge of the law and the practice of good works. 16-17 And God is so kind that he grants his gifts to the good and he always makes them prosper. But for the bad guys God prepared stupidity and darkness, and evil will accompany them until the day of his death THESE ARE DECREES OF GOD THESE SHOULD MAKE YOU TREMBLE WITH FEAR...and be more humbled..argueing with God by ignoring passages that clearly said that man have no will... Do not both good and evil come out of the mouth of the Most High? I rejoice that God is sovereign, and where God has placed me, my wisdom is to fear God and not plead with God, not to argue either....we are like worms, he is above everything, he decrees something and his decrees remain, he makes The wound, and also the cure, Job learned this very quickly, that arguing with God is foolish, to say that man has a will, and that his will can frustrate God's designs, is foolish, this is pride, and The proud have their part with the devil in the lake of fire, because that's exactly what you do, Romans 9:16 16 So it does not depend on who he wants, or who runs, but on God who has mercy .... THIS PASSAGE COMPLETELY DESTROYS THE WILL OF MAN END THIS ONE, THAT YOU IGNORE JOHN 6:44.

Honestly, how can someone call their self a theologian of the Bible and not be reformed. I’m no theologian but I could not escape the fact that the Bible clearly teaches reform theology.

Leighton Flowers has been doing this for years. And to be honest, it's pretty sad now. His relentless attacks on reformed theology isn't just obsessive, but it is actually an attack on God's character. This is what happens when you elevate the "free" will of man over the sovereignty of God. The Romans 9 debate was awful for him because he had a perfect chance to go verse by verse to show his interpretation and he couldn't do it. And he's done the same type of interpretation with Ephesians 1:4, saying the "chosen in him" isn't elected unto salvation, but choosing those that would believe to get "into Christ." He mangles John 6:44 as we've seen. He tries his best to dismantle Romans 8:29-30, trying to "break" the golden chain of redemption. But here's some scary facts we shouldn't ignore: 1) Because Flowers has done this for years, it is premeditated and intentional. 2) He must have some knowledge of scripture to use analogies then find scriptures to back those analogies instead of just telling us what the verses say. 3) There must be an underlying offense against God to ignore the plain reading of some texts and change them to benefit the will of man over the sovereignty of God. 4) John 3:16, though a wonderful verse, is his foundation for God's attribute of love being either the most important attribute (outside of connecting it with His other attributes) or the only true attribute of God (in his mind, erasing all others). There are so many folks that agree with his Biblical interpretation so they can feel good about their "free" will in salvation. In other words, if God is sovereign in all things, then He would be wicked and man would be a puppet (because that's what they think though the Bible says the opposite), and they can't have that. So Leighton Flowers is their champion by misinterpreting scripture, embracing Molinism or open theism subtly, and making his "mission" to stamp out reformed theology over actual soteriology.

@richardcoords1610

3 жыл бұрын

You said something really strange about your opponent's view of Ephesians 1:4, and I'm trying to make sense of your logic. Paraphrased thusly: Calvinist objection: Provisionists believe that when Ephesians 1:4 says “chosen in Him,” it doesn’t mean “elected unto salvation,” but instead God choosing those He knows someday will believe to get “into Christ.” Reply: That’s completely wrong since the text has nothing to do with the notion of God choosing unbelievers (or foreseen believers) to get “into Christ.” Being “chosen in Him” indeed means “elected unto salvation,” in as much as believers in Christ are elected by God to uniquely receive God’s predestined spiritual blessing of “election unto salvation,” which is plainly evident at Ephesians 1:7 which states that “in Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses.” In other words, one must be a believer “in Christ” or “in Him” in order to be eligible to receive God’s predestined spiritual blessing of election unto salvation. The text has nothing to do with unbelievers, meaning that it’s not about getting people “into Christ” but what all God has predestined in Christ for the believer.

@2timothy23

3 жыл бұрын

@@richardcoords1610 I never said the text has anything "to do with the notion of God choosing unbelievers (or foreseen believers) to get 'into Christ.'" It is Leighton Flowers that said this. He gave an analogy of a plane going to a destination, but the passengers have to get on the plane. The plane you get in is the same as getting "in Christ" in his mind. God chose the destination of the plane, but its up to the person to choose to get on it. You also wrote that "chosen in Him" indeed means elected unto salvation. Then where is the disagreement? I believe it is in this statement: "In other words, one must be a believer “in Christ” or “in Him” in order to be eligible to receive God’s predestined spiritual blessing of election unto salvation." So we're only "eligible" for the predestined spiritual blessing of election? Election means chosen. So we must be believers by choosing first or are we elected first? The text says that it is God who chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world (1:4). That choosing happened before Genesis 1:1 when there was nothing but the self-existent, eternal Godhead. God didn't see who would choose Him first (that is not in the text). God already knows who is His based on his choice before the foundation of the world. The sinner doesn't know that until the gospel is proclaimed to him or her and the Spirit uses those means to save the sinner. So many Christians try to get around that salvation is of God alone. The choice is His alone. It is by His grace alone. Even the faith we have is of God. We can't even repent unless it is granted or given by God (Acts 5:31, 11:18, 2 Timothy 2:25). Salvation by grace through faith is all a work of God, not any of man (Ephesians 2:8-9). No man can even come to Christ in faith unless they are drawn by the Father (John 6:44). The Bible says what it says and God is who God is. When we try to redefine God's absolute attributes to make Him dependent upon man for anything, including salvation, we either inadvertently or purposely make the God of the Bible a different God.

@richardcoords1610

3 жыл бұрын

@@2timothy23

@2timothy23

3 жыл бұрын

@@richardcoords1610 Again, I didn't say that; Leighton Flowers did. My position is that we are chosen by God in Christ before the foundation of the world as Ephesians 1:4 says. No one doubts the blessings, but in no way do we initiate salvation by our will or are we saved by our "decision." I tried to be as plain as I could in my other post about it being a work of God alone. Not just the blessings, but everything. That's my position based on scripture, not my opinion.

@richardcoords1610

3 жыл бұрын

@@2timothy23 If you’re tracking what I wrote, I’ll again rephrase what you wrote above: [Believers, not unbelievers] are chosen by God in Christ before the foundation of the world “that we [who believe] would be holy and blameless before Him.” Verse 3 and 4 are one sentence, and v.4 starts with “just as,” meaning that v.4 builds on the principle statement in v.3. The principle statement in v.3 is that God blessed us [who believe, v.19] with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, “just as” He chose us [who believe, v.19] in Him before the foundation of the world to receive the spiritual blessing of standing holy and blameless before God. If you’re tracking what I wrote, the entire passage is about God’s predestined spiritual blessings in Christ, and it has nothing to do with spiritual blessings for unbelievers, specifically because unbelievers are ineligible.

Live in Texas- we may like choice meats, but only when picking out a steak :) Fully Reformed home here :) thanks to James White and Jeff Durbin's ministries!

I love your preaching Dr White 😊😊. Love from New Zealand.

Dude, how have I missed James’s tattoos all these years?!

@mawa89g

3 жыл бұрын

I think I follow him since around 2011 and never seen those, now I am very confused

@TheChurchIsLikenUntoTheMoon

3 жыл бұрын

Most “Christians” are one foot in and one foot out now a days. That’s called lukewarm.

@seeqr9

3 жыл бұрын

not all denominations believe there is a prohibition of tattoos in general. That doesn’t mean they’re one foot in and one foot out. One foot in n one out means half way holding to what one believes.

@WasLostButNowAmFound

3 жыл бұрын

Not tattoos of the dead aka necromancy. So i won't bother too much about it

@Chirhopher

3 жыл бұрын

Lol.. Not Sure, Bro

Helko - to draw or drag - The father WILL draw them not attempt - he WILL DO it, faithful is he who calls and he will do it. I have no problem accepting the fact that my father will drag me home whether I am kicking and screaming or rejoicing!

Dr. White truly a blessing to hear the sole foundational truth of God ! God bless you Brother in Christ!

@arnolddonaldson7129

2 жыл бұрын

Do you really think that God preordains millions of abortions a year?

@MatchObox

2 жыл бұрын

@@arnolddonaldson7129 Do you believe those aborted Babies are going to hell?

@arnolddonaldson7129

2 жыл бұрын

@@MatchObox I do not. I believe those under the age of accountability are saved. I do think God desires those aborted babies to live. Think of the difference so many of them would have made!

@MatchObox

2 жыл бұрын

@@arnolddonaldson7129Then those babys are going straight to heaven aren't they? Isnt that a Good thing? Or what do you have against Gods will they he brings his people to himself?

@arnolddonaldson7129

2 жыл бұрын

@@MatchObox Please don't tell me you are using the doctrine of unconditional predestination to argue that abortion is ok. That is totally disgusting. You do know that is an argument any pro choice person can make? Heck, why can't Hitler use that argument (If Hitler was a Christian) for his millions of children he killed. I hope you can see how that warped view of thinking can lead us someplace we do not want to go. I believe that unborn children have a right to life. It is a tragedy when abortions occur. And counter to your argument, I think that thousands of the millions aborted could have been successful Christian evangelists, theologians, pastors, missionaries, and Christian Apologists who could have been vessels the Holy Spirit used to save more souls. It is a stain in our country that abortion is legal. I claimed that according to my beliefs aborted babies go to heaven. That is not substantiated in Scripture. We do not know about those under the age of accountability. According to Calvinism, it depends on who God preordains. But if you believe that God preordains murder, and then God claims that murder is one of the 7 things that He hates (which He does), then you have a big issue theologically. When it comes down to it, Calvinism is against Scripture and against logic.

For someone not to know the difference between give and invite, is truly a reflection of spiritual blindness of the Total Sovereignty and Control of God

@garfd2

5 ай бұрын

When you say "Total Sovereignty and Control of God" Are you saying that Brother Leighton left Calvinism and critiques Calvinism *_in his spare time_* because God is controlling his every action? I guess God would need to *_reopen_* Leighton's eyes.

This is wisdom! Thank you bro! How much better it is to get wisdom than gold! And to get understanding is to be chosen above silver. (Proverbs 16:16, NASB)

Excellent stuff, Dr. White

"This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day." John 6:39 NKJV

Leighton is so traumatized by John 6 that he's too dizzy to ever read it straight without bouncing from verse to verse.

I try and listen to Flowers’ program and it’s it unbelievably hard to finish an entire program. He has a distain toward reformed theology and always categorically misapplied EVERYTHING reform people believe.

@gch8810

2 жыл бұрын

So is the case with many American evangelicals in the modern day.

@josiahpulemau6214

Жыл бұрын

Emphasis on “always” and that makes it difficult for me to listen to him as well as he “always” misrepresents any Calvinists view because that’s the only way his argument would fit in. Very sad and self centered

@Jebron_G

Жыл бұрын

White spent the first 8 minutes attacking Leighton and claiming you must know Greek.

@IowaBlue24

9 ай бұрын

@@Jebron_G Just started rereading Luther's "The Bondage of the Will" and the first 8 sections are all insults of Erasmus. White has to step up his game here

@sanders194539

7 ай бұрын

Erasmis was a liberal theologian. Liberal theology is very destructive

Dr. Flowers is showing himself to be incapable to show his Provisionist beliefs from the Scriptures. I'm not sure if he learns from any theologian either way it's clear it crumbles I guess that's why he always uses analogies instead of exegeting the passage. Soon enough more will leave the group and see how unreliable he is not just in interpreting Scripture but Church history as well. Dr. Flowers wont debate James White with just a Greek text on John 6, Leighton seems like a nice guy but his beliefs cannot stand up to scrutiny.

@reformedcatholic457

3 жыл бұрын

@Sage of Synergism Leighton uses analogies to explain Scripture passages instead of exegeting them. Jesus wasn't trying to exegete Scripture but to reveal a truth and a point. Nice try. Nothing wrong with analogies, just use them at the right time. Why can't Leighton exegete Scripture? Maybe because Leighton isn't capable of doing it.

@reformedcatholic457

3 жыл бұрын

@Sage of Synergism In your view what is stopping man believing God?

@TKK0812

3 жыл бұрын

@@reformedcatholic457 Can you demonstrate Leighton hasn't done exegetical work on John 6 or are you just saying he hasn't because you don't agree with him? For starters, maybe watch his 150 minute video with Brian Wagner where they go line by line through John 6:25-71. You may not agree with his conclusions, but to say he hasn't done exegetical work is just ignorant.

@billyr9162

3 жыл бұрын

@@TKK0812 It's not exegetical work. It's proper exegetical work. It's basic reading. Read one sentence followed by the next followed by the next followed by the next. One sentence leads to the other. That's how you're supposed to read. Flowers doesn't do that. As was pointed out in the video and many other videos he reads a sentence then he skips to another section of The Bible entirely that has a different meaning and a different subject. Then he draws meaning from that unrelated section back into what he was reading. Then he goes to another part and bring it back into the sentence he just read. Then he'll go off on a story or an analogy. He never reads from beginning to in following flow of thought through John 6. Never!! That is not proper exigetical reading. Is that how you read literature? No. Give me a link to this so called 150 minute video where he goes line by line. If this were a bet in Vegas I'd put all my money that he doesn't do it.

@electronicMI

3 жыл бұрын

@Sage of Synergism wrote: "Did jesus use analogies or nah ?" Jesus used parables. I've asked you this before: Why did Jesus use parables?

Very interesting. The fact that Christ's drawing is effectual is powerful.

@progodspeed2311

3 жыл бұрын

“No one ‘can’ come to Me unless the Father draws him, and I will raise him up on the last day.” John 6:44 The word ‘can’ says otherwise. It comes from the Greek word “dunatai” (from the root form of dunamai, where the -tai ending is used for 3rd person singular). In this form, it’s used about 75 times. And in all of those cases, it was used to show that a subject can not do the specified task (like John 6:44). However.... there was ONLY ONE case when a subject was noted to be able to “can” do a specified task. We see this in Matt 3:9, where John the Baptist told the Pharisees that “God ‘can’ (dunatai) raise children of Abraham from these stones.” That didn’t happened of course. But did God do that? No! Therefore, isn’t logical to conclude that just because someone “can come” to Christ, it doesn’t necessarily follow that they will come to Christ (as seen with the usage of can in Math 3:9)? If Jesus wanted you to understand that the drawing is effectual... He would’ve most certainly used “will come” instead of “can come.” We see this in John 6:37.

@Jebron_G

Жыл бұрын

So every Sunday at church, God calls everyone. Does that mean they all believe?

@jermoosekek1101

7 ай бұрын

@@progodspeed2311this a is a gross misrepresentation of Matthew 3:9 as it references God raising stones (Gentiles) to life. Unless you don’t believe that God saves Gentiles.

@tomtemple69

6 ай бұрын

thats why Romans 8 says those who He calls He justifies and all that the Father gives Jesus, We will lose none of them

@tomtemple69

6 ай бұрын

@@progodspeed2311 because one word means something in one context(john 6) doesn't mean it means the exact same thing in another(matthew 3) you really need to learn how to read in context, not finding the definition of a word and applying it to every context

Very Good thank you ☺️

Flowers' and his strange analogies

@apilkey

3 жыл бұрын

Similar to Jesus and His analogies in scripture huh. You ever read the Bible?

@mrpadillaofficial

3 жыл бұрын

@@apilkey It would be absolutely rediculus to compare the God Man's analogies to Flowers.

@apilkey

3 жыл бұрын

@@mrpadillaofficial His analogies are only ridiculous to those who don’t have ears to hear. You stating, “Flowers and his strange analogies” is the exact same thing the Jews who didn’t have ears to hear would have said about Jesus 2,000 years ago. “Jesus and His strange analogies.” -says the Jew who has no ears to hear. “Flowers and his strange analogies” - says the Calvinist who has no ears to hear. The point is analogies are only strange to those who don’t get it. And Leighton’s analogies are only needed because Calvinists don’t get the simple Gospel of Christ. Us Bible believers don’t need Leighton’s analogies because we get it already from God’s Word because we hear God’s voice because we are His sheep and followers of Christ and not followers of Calvin the robber and thief who crept into the sheep pen and has been leading Christians astray.

@mrpadillaofficial

3 жыл бұрын

@@apilkey that was the point. we got Flowers strange analogies and we got God's word. God's Word is easier than Flower's anologies. The conclusion Reformed theology and Calvinism.

@apilkey

3 жыл бұрын

@@mrpadillaofficial Reformed theology is found nowhere in scripture. If you claim to have God’s Word and are clinging to reformed theology than you don’t have what you think you do. What you have is someone else’s personal and private opinions and assumptions of God’s Word and what they think it means.

I think if Calvin knew that election and predestination was the doctrine most associated with his name he’d be like “did you guys even read the rest of the book?”

The seeming inexhaustibility of human pride as demonstrated by Flowers.

So we have choice meats, High school girls blind sheep followers, And now the John 6 birthday party. Keep it up Flowers.

@2timothy23

3 жыл бұрын

He seems to love his analogies more than the Word of God. It's sad when you lean on your own understanding and embrace man-made, worldly philosophies (which Proverbs 3:5 and Colossians 2:8 warns against) over the God-breathed, sufficient Word (2 Timothy 3:16-17). But when you want to boast of your "free" will over God's attributes or you're man-centered rather than God-centered, this is what you get.

@billyr9162

3 жыл бұрын

@@2timothy23 That's right. But flowers thinks that since Jesus can make perfect analogies so can he. The truth was in Jesus analogies therefore the truth is in flowers analogies.

@reformedwretch2071

3 жыл бұрын

😂😂😂

@apilkey

3 жыл бұрын

@@2timothy23 no he only resorts to analogies for your sakes because you don’t understand the simple gospel. His analogies aren’t needed for the Bible believer. They’re needed for you because you don’t believe the Bible so he has to resort to analogies to show you. If you heard God’s voice and were of His sheep you wouldn’t need his analogies because our would know Gods voice and His Word that He died for all of humanity without exception and that salvation is freely and genuinely offered to all of mankind.

@billyr9162

3 жыл бұрын

@@apilkey You mean like choice meats analogy. Bahahaha!!!

Sound expository preaching - the great sanity.

@arnolddonaldson7129

2 жыл бұрын

Unfortunately the correct way to view theological doctrines is to try to interpret the Bible in context of other Scripture. White doesn't allow the Bible to interpret the Bible as Flowers does.

@jalapeno.tabasco

4 ай бұрын

@@arnolddonaldson7129 you do realize how context works right? immediate context first, i know Flowers is allergic to it i'm starting to get the impression many provisionists have no idea what God's grace is, they truly believe they merited their spot in heaven by their free will and deny God had any part in it

Mr. Flowers doesn't want to know...

That "jump" 😂

If Jesus can fail to save those that the Father has given Him, then He is not worthy of worship.

Here's an analogy for you.... It's like flowers challenged white to a wrestling match with pads on on top of a mattress out in a wide open field. White accepted the challenge to wrestle but said they have to have it on concrete in a steel cage so flowers can't get away. Lol!!!😜😜😜😜

Again Dr. White "nails" it. Leighton just adds confusion to these passages in John 6. Analogies are *not* line by line exegesis of just the text, and dealing with what is there. Dr. Whites method shows us the superiority of his exegetical method, as compared to Dr. Flowers "analogesis" method. Just saying. Judge it for yourself, who's method is "easier" to understand for the layman. 🤷

@whattheheckification

2 жыл бұрын

So wrong

CHOICE MEATS !!!! 🥩🥩🥩😋 😂

'John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from Heaven' (Jn.3:27). Jesus confirms this statement in Jn.6:65, saying, 'Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given him of my Father'. Thus, every thing is a gift and is in the hands of the Giver. God grants grace unto very few, as few are truly humble of heart.

@michaelstanley4698

3 жыл бұрын

@Sage of Synergism What does Rom.9:21 say? God decides what He shall do with each 'lump' of clay, starting with Adam. Paul points out that, unless God makes a godly seed, all of us 'had been as Sodom, and been made like unto Gomorrah'! (Rom.9:29). Rejoice if you are one of those 'which He had afore prepared unto glory' (Rom.9:23).

@ejj1939

3 жыл бұрын

@@michaelstanley4698 Nowhere in Romans 9 does it ever speak to being chosen for salvation. That is eisegeted into the text. Read the first 6 verses to see what is on Paul's heart and mind and what Chapter 9 is about. It is about Israel following God all these years, making the appropriate sacrafices, following the law and then Jesus comes along and says that is not sufficient and these pagan gentiles do not have to do anything, all they have to do is believe and confess. That is what Israel could not understand, that they would be cast aside and the Gentiles can skip all of that heritage and divine relevation from God and receive it. Nowhere in Romans 9 does it ever speak about individuals or individual salvation and being chosen for that or individuals being chosen for damnation.

@billyr9162

3 жыл бұрын

@Sage of Synergism No one that the Father gives are forced. They go willingly after God chooses them. Duh!! Some go in a deep state of submission after God beats them. But once there're chosen they go. Haven't you ever heard anyone testify about their conversion were God would not let them alone until they submitted? And after you are a child of God you still get beaten and chastised. He chastises whom he loves.

@billyr9162

3 жыл бұрын

@@ejj1939 So Romans 9 is about man's ability to confess according to you.

@michaelstanley4698

3 жыл бұрын

@@ejj1939 Take a look at Acts 15:7 and Rom.11:11-24, especially verse 16 where 'the same lump' is spoken of again (as in Rom.9:21). Salvation is always 'individuals', as 1Cor.12:27 makes very plain. Sounds like dispensationalism has your understanding confused. Rom.9:21-23 is individuals, as is 2Tim.2:20,21. Read these verses carefully. On the Last Day certain ones will be 'beautified with Salvation' (Ps.149:4).

Which DL is this from?

More analgesis from Dr Flowers

I really hope & pray Dr. Flowers accepts the debate challenge @23:04. It would really be great for the unity of all the Saints in The Body of Christ

@livingforjesus8551

10 ай бұрын

According to White, God had to determined that Flowers accept the debate, because God determines everything. That means, God determined that Flowers be making these videos against calvinists, and their calviniststic teaching, and James White makes these videos against Flowers. On James White's teaching, God determined both sides, and God also determined both sides to fight against each other, which means, you have God fighting God, because he determined everything. That is a system that I cannot support.

@IowaBlue24

9 ай бұрын

Its finally scheduled for this coming March. I'm not sure what details have been worked out for it (i.e. if they'll only use the Greek NT)

8 ай бұрын

​@@IowaBlue24this should be sold as Pay Per View, like a UFC match. 😂😂😂

@throwawaypt2throwawaypt2-xp8nx

7 ай бұрын

james and Leighton are gonna have a debate in 2024 on John 6.

I got the Nero comment.

Dr Flowers sees birthday cakes and choice meats in the Bible. I think he has a food obsession. I have noticed that he and Kevin rarely ever quote the Bible to interpret the Bible. They come up with all kinds of stories and in Kevin's case all kinds of mumbo jumbo to explain away clear-cut Bible texts.

@jessejimenez1793

2 жыл бұрын

Because this is for the carnal Christian, his stories appeal to their senses, very bad when you are driven by your emotions..some of these people are not even saved, does not matter they know the message of the Gospel...there is a lot of tares in the Lord's church, maybe the Lord is pruning his vineyard...

24:11-20 "NO IT'S NOT!!!!!" 🤣🤣🤣

I'm not a Calvinist. However, reading John 6 leads me to the same interpretation as what this man gives. I see no need to attach bells and whistles or analogies to steer it off in some other direction as if to say Jesus didn't know what He was saying and needed somebody's help to get His message across. Oh what in the world would we do without the wisdom of Leighton Flowers to give us divinely inspired stories because people no longer understand simple English anymore; and you know that must be the case since people keep twisting what this man says.

Leighton is like " wiley coyote " super geni... SMH.

Stop rejecting the Word flowers.. let it destroy your pride.

Then God gets to boast. He made the decision to come and die for all who would believe. God the glory alone.

Ever since the Romans 9 Debate, why has Leighton Flowers relentlessly continued to be so singularly focused on this issue, attempting to explain away grace? It is nonstop, using analogies that BTW, "always" fall short in some way, that is why they are merely analogies and not the same reality. Why would a Bible teacher spend the last few years, being controlled so much by a desire to use proof texts, conveniently avoiding exegesis of chapters of Scripture, always concluding God's salvation is not grace, not an actual atonement, not an actual redemption, but merely a cooperative effort. Why does he refuse to acknowledge salvation is all of God's glory?

@hondobondo

3 жыл бұрын

all he has is this ministry and if he admits he has failed, he has nothing. either way, there are tons of people who want to believe in free will

@ethanhocking8229

3 жыл бұрын

@@hondobondo He could do something different. He could preach the Gospel more. Or he could do apologetics on a relevant issue.

@apilkey

3 жыл бұрын

He’s contending for the faith that was once delivered. Calvinism is NOT what was once delivered. Calvinism is a satanic attack on the character of God and His Word. That’s why. And in your religion Leighton had no choice so your issue is actually with God decreeing Leighton to do what he’s doing. So you’re actually shaking your fist at God and what He’s decreed.

@chaleej5571

3 жыл бұрын

@@apilkey Well, yes. And according to both Calvinists and the Bible, Flowers is still responsible for his choices. If he teaches that God's Word can be sent back to Him void and chooses to stand with the ungodly in sneering, "Does the Most High REALLY know?" (Psa73:11-12), then the Jesus of the Bible whom Isaiah saw will eventually say to him, "I never knew you." Samson was responsible to honor his parents and steer clear of foreign women who worshiped foreign gods (as commanded in Deut7:3-4). But Samson was not "free" and could only act like Samson, so God ordained to use Samson's disobedience. Judges14:2 And he came up, and told his father and his mother, and said, I have seen a woman in Timnath of the daughters of the Philistines: now therefore get her for me to wife. 3 Then his father and his mother said unto him, Is there never a woman among the daughters of thy brethren, or among all my people, that thou goest to take a wife of the uncircumcised Philistines? And Samson said unto his father, Get her for me; for she pleaseth me well. 4 But his father and his mother knew not that it was of the Lord, that he sought an occasion against the Philistines: for at that time the Philistines had dominion over Israel. Samson did what God decreed - not because God forced him but because he wanted to do so (he was what Jesus called "a bad tree" in Luke6:43-45). It was absolutely "of the Lord." But it was also evil and his parents were correct to point him towards obedience to God's stated commands. You start with Aristotle and impotently attempt to judge the God of the Bible accordingly. I should warn you that He mocks you and holds you and yours in derision (Psalm2).

@chaleej5571

3 жыл бұрын

@@apilkey Heck, God sent King David a prophecy about Judas 1000 years before he was born. Jesus chose Judas to be a disciple specifically knowing that he would be the betrayer that fulfilled scripture. Judas was exactly decreed to be part of Jesus "being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God." And he was still responsible. And if you had met him on the way to pick up his silver, you would have been right to warn him, "Dude, what you are thinking?"

The quotation of Isaiah 55 makes it clear what the calling is. The calling is the opening of the eyes of the unbeliever so that the heart now understands what God's words say. The unbeliever does not understand God's words- hence why the crowd is so confused about Jesus' metaphor about bread. They don't have the regeneration given out by the Father through the Spirit (John 3). All who are illumined by the Father come to Jesus. All who are called then are raised up on the last day

Leighton’s channel is so toxic. Seems odd for any Christian to start an entire channel centered around a single doctrine....

Serves him right Dr. White. Flowers has been such a disgrace for all of us who profess the grace of God and faith in Jesus Christ. It gets worse when he tandems with Winger, haha!

@apilkey

3 жыл бұрын

There’s no grace in the false gospel of Calvinism. Calvinism has disgraced the Cross of Christ for all of humanity and Leighton is contending for the faith that was once delivered.

@benjamincamping8134

3 жыл бұрын

@@apilkey what about Augustine? Did he also teach a false gospel? Or Ireneaus? Cyprian, Aquinas? The councils of orange and of Nicea? I would invite you to a survey history to see the doctrines of grace far far far preceded Calvin. Calvin was not the originator, just the clarifier of the faith that was delivered friend.

@apilkey

3 жыл бұрын

@@benjamincamping8134 Yes Augustine was the wolf that originally brought in the false gospel that Calvin adopted and reformers since him. No one prior to Augustine taught Gnostic election and predestination. For the first 400 years no one believed what you do. It’s a man made religion that none of the early church fathers believed. Augustine invented his twisted view of Gnostic-Manichaen predestination. Predestination has absolutely nothing to do with unbelievers being unconditionally predestined to become believers. Biblical predestination is about believers being predestined to certain ends. Predestination is mentioned 4 times in the Bible in 3 separate verses and NOT ONCE IS IT REFERRING TO SALVATION. In each case the passage clearly says WHO is being predestinated and TO WHAT they are being predestinated to. In all those passages ask your self WHO is being predestined and WHAT are they being predestined to? *Not once is it an unbeliever.* *Not once is it predestined to salvation.* BELIEVERS are chosen to be Holy and blameless IN CHRIST, are predestined to be adopted children of God BY JESUS, predestined to be to the praise of His glory and predestined to be conformed to His image EPHESIANS 1:4 - BELIEVERS chosen to be Holy and Blameless IN CHRIST. EPHESIANS 1:5 - BELIEVERS are predestined to be adopted children of God BY JESUS: EPHESIANS 1:11,12 - BELIEVERS (who first trusted in Christ) are predestined to be the PRAISE OF HIS GLORY: ROMANS 8:29 - BELIEVERS (those who are in IN CHRIST) are predestined to be CONFORMED TO HIS IMAGE (through sanctification).

@benjamincamping8134

3 жыл бұрын

@@apilkey that’s not how doctrine and theology works or has ever worked man. You gotta get past the words and read the reality of what scripture teaches. Like the trinity

@benjamincamping8134

3 жыл бұрын

@@apilkey you are very much like Leighton in your bitterness friend. I’ll let you have the last word but sincerely brother (and I believe you are a brother) until you learn to accept and rejoice in the full sovereignty of God, your understanding of him will always be limited.

Waiting for the Independent Fundamentalist Baptists to make a big deal out of James White having tattoos....

Honest question..... Isnt it the possibility of failure that makes a certain task, glorious if achieved? If I know theres no chance of failure, what's so glorious about the achievement? Now I do wanna say I've listened to James White alot and I've read some of his books and I've always felt like i agreed with him and guys like Jeff Durbin. But as i was just listening. At 10 minutes and 17 seconds White claims how in Leighton's view; Jesus would have to be ineffectual and have the possibility to fail in atonement. Ultimately conveying that Leighton (for the sake of consistency) has to believe Jesus could set out to accomplish something and there actually be a chance of failure.... Which brings me back to my initial question.... a question I'd hope James or possibly someone else can address. 🙏

@PunkEvangelist

3 жыл бұрын

The idea of a possible failure to make success sweeter is a novel one, but only in a "man lens", Meaning that when we as man fail, we are told to get better and try again, and in that repetition when we see success, it's the sweetest feeling ever. God doesn't get better, He doesn't fail, He made the ends and Himself is the means to that end. As man, we can only to pretend to understand fully He's means. The Gloriousness of an achievement, that has no possibility of failure, means that through God all things are possible, not just some of the things. Where is Hope? The Hope in something that might fail? The Hope that, all the means we experience in our lives and also leave for our kids to endure, God possibly might fail? Since God declared the ends, he also placed each piece in place to reach that end and what we endure has true purpose

@richardhislop9928

21 күн бұрын

What???.. How does that subjective notion of nobility change the context?.. "The context is Demonstrating that The Father Gives perfectly to the Son, all whom He should Perfectly Attone for, Raise up, and Perfectly Interceed for, for all eternity.. "For it is His intercession that Saves us to the uttermost, because He Ever Liveth to make Intercession.".. Therefore He'll lose NONE.. The audacity that this should somehow shame Yahweh, for taking this Perfectly Air-tight route, is beyond me ; that He shouldrisk being rejected.. SMH.. Anyway ; don't grumble among yourselves.. This is the Salvation of the chosen, Perfectly Achieved by Father, Son and Spirit ; to the Praise of His Glorious Grace.. Sorry. 😢 Man doesn't get to boast that they chose Him first.. Sucks for the free-willer.. Fear Yahweh The Glorious, as He defines Glory His way..

Oh my is it that Flowers is a cloud without water? Let's shine the light of the gospel of Christ and step back and allow the Holy Spirit to do His work.

@christaolive6902

3 жыл бұрын

yeah... pray that GOD have mercy upon Flowers 💐 🌻 🌷 💮 🌸 🌼 🏵️ 🌹 pour HIS mercy, grace & faith upon him & regenerate him

Wait just a minute!! So am I getting cake 🍰 or not?

@FabledNarrative

10 ай бұрын

That is a good question. I want cake! :P

Flowers is going pour all his goo on to you"

Dr. White has gotten some new "ink" on His forearms. Interesting. He is really into "Fitness" now. He is like into Bicycle racing or something. Pretty cool. 😎

@christaolive6902

3 жыл бұрын

ü notice as well... so nice! 😎

@truth7416

3 жыл бұрын

Do not tattoo yourselves like the pagans! White is what you see.

@sanders194539

7 ай бұрын

Brother or Sister, tatoos usually are meant to bring attention to one's body but as christians we should bring attention to Jesus. Tatoos are not a christian tradition rather that of pagans. Please consider that the church has allowed worldly practices to creep in. Up until the 20th Century is was common practice for women to cover their heads in church in accordance with 1 Corinthians 11. See John Calvin, R.C. Sproul, and Spurgeon's commentary on the matter. Sadly the church is being influenced by the World.

Thanks so much for your use of holy scripture to destroy the Libertarian Freewill doctrine! Satan whispered unto Eve, "You will be like God", that was her motivation to disobey her creator, Almighty God, thus giving the glory to Satan and causing the death of mankind. The Libertarian Freewill crowd have believed the same lie that Eve believed. They have created a god in their own self-image and worship that god daily.

@oracleoftroy

3 жыл бұрын

Yes, I've notice that most of the objections from that camp against Reformed theology stem from the first sin in the garden. They often attribute things to man the Bible only says about God, or things to God the Bible says about man. They demand the same autonomous freedom only God has and call God a devil when we point out that only God has such power. They blame the judge for sentencing their sins and demand that if he shows mercy to anyone, he must show it to everyone. But only if we consent to mercy of course, after all, the wicked criminal should be the one to determine our final destination, not the Holy and perfect Judge.

@apilkey

3 жыл бұрын

You left out held of what Satan said. He didn’t say “you will be like God.” He explicitly stated , “ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.” “as gods” not “like God.” Genesis 3:5 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. Question for you: was satan correct in stating they would be as gods knowing good and evil or was this a lie?

hello dr james whjitt hi.

Provisionism is a more descriptive term for Traditionalism, that is, more specifically describing the nature of God’s grace shown toward humanity. God provides. He does not force His love upon anyone. In other words, the question is this: Does God impose His love on humanity-whether they want it or not-as per Calvinism, or does God simply provide grace to humanity, and let people decide for themselves whether they wish to receive it or not? In Calvinism, fallen man is totally depraved and therefore as “total haters of God,” they do not want God’s grace, and so any whom God desires to have (i.e. Calvinism’s class of the unconditional elect), are given a “regeneration” against their totally depraved will, so that they will “freely” be made to love God. How that could genuinely be considered true freedom is the subject of much debate. For example, if a woman at a bar is the unwilling recipient of a deviant’s date-rape drug, and as a result, freely goes home with her secret assailant, in what legitimate sense was she genuinely acting freely? In our society, that would be considered a crime, but in Calvinism, it is called “grace.” So, this is the type of question that arises from Calvinism’s doctrine of Irresistible Grace, which is secretly and unilaterally imposed upon those whom the God of Calvinism desires to have, and to make willing to love Him. It’s scandalous. It’s corrupt. There’s not a lot of good things to say about it. It should really shock our conscience, but here is how Calvinists try to sell it. *** What do Calvinists believe? *** James White: “Provisionism replaces the power of God with provisions that are fulfilled by the power of man.” (14:40 - 14:47) *** Reply: *** By “power of God,” James White means “Irresistible Grace” and by “power of man,” James White means “human free-will.” Part of the difficulty in dealing with the subject of Calvinism is that Calvinists often have their own built-in meanings to words and terms that most people who are unfamiliar with Calvinism might not readily identify. A positive case for Provisionism is often described by citing the following quote: A.W. Tozer: “Here is my view: God sovereignly decreed that man should be free to exercise moral choice, and man from the beginning has fulfilled that decree by making his choice between good and evil. When he chooses to do evil, he does not thereby countervail the sovereign will of God but fulfills it, inasmuch as the eternal decree decided not which choice the man should make but that he should be free to make it. If in His absolute freedom God has willed to give man limited freedom, who is there to stay His hand or say, ‘What doest thou?’ Man’s will is free because God is sovereign. A God less than sovereign could not bestow moral freedom upon His creatures. He would be afraid to do so.” ( The Knowledge of the Holy, HarperCollins, 1961, pp.110-111) If God gets more glory from Provisionism over Calvinism, then that alone is sufficient basis for God to reject the Calvinist paradigm. So, would Provisionism bring God more glory than the exhaustive, meticulous determinism of Calvinism-devoid of true free-will? Would God receive more glory from the reciprocated love of free people, as per Provisionism, or would He receive more glory from someone that is forced to love Him, as per the Irresistible Grace of Calvinism? It’s hard to avoid seeing Calvinism as a depiction of robots and puppets, as it is often accused of being. In fact, it’s really hard to see how building a kingdom of marionettes and yes-men can truly be deemed glorious at all.

@oldglory6922

3 жыл бұрын

Richard Coords that was well stated. You are not alone. 🎚📖🙏🏼

@yvonnedoulos8873

3 жыл бұрын

Well said, sir! Fascinating that not one Calvinist has responded.

Can't bring anything in? Hmmm, like other Bible verses? Can't make a doctrine of one verse alone

I am the worse choice that God did...why God did not choose Iitgton Flowers 🌺? his a “choice meet” better than me

@jessejimenez1793

2 жыл бұрын

And perhaps better looking that you end me🥺🥺🥺😁😁😁 hi is a new york stake...25 ponder

ok...so when did Dr. White start wearing a cross around his neck and sporting a tattoo?

@TheChurchIsLikenUntoTheMoon

3 жыл бұрын

Because he wants to be catholic and orthodox. Calvinism is ecumenical anyways.

@paul.etedder2439

3 жыл бұрын

Job 9:24 I can tell by your comment that your not to bright . Arminianism is heresy

Dr. Flowers sounds like semi-pelagian heretic, he rejects prevenient grace according to his new theology which is open grounds for Pelagianism.

@jltc5478

3 жыл бұрын

No. He actually sounds like a FULL Pelagian.

@apilkey

3 жыл бұрын

You clearly have no clue what Pelagianism or semi-pelagianism or provisionism is if you’re making that comment.

Didnt you say "i dont go to John 6.44 alone and make thing up" 🤣🤣

It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught of God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me. John 6:45 That's who will come to Jesus. Not those who the father picked before the foundation of the world for no reason!!

@jermoosekek1101

7 ай бұрын

“even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love” ‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭1‬:‭4‬ ‭ESV‬‬

@Jebron_G

7 ай бұрын

@jermoosekek1101 ‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭ [1] Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus: Who are those refrenced to be in HIM? The FAITHFULL in Christ, according to verse 1. Those who placed their faith in Christ. Those who BELIEVED in Jesus Christ. Ephesians 1:4 ‭‭ ‭ [4] just as He chose "the faithful" in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love Us= the faithful Chosen for what? To be holy and blameless

@Jebron_G

5 ай бұрын

@jermoosekek1101 He chose who? Read verse 1. Believers who are in Christ. He chose those who are in christ to be holy and blameless. Not He chose us to be in Christ and to be holy and to be blameless.

While I agree with the arguments being made here, I don't get the sense that this is what truth in love looks like. Leighton is a brother. Is this what the love got eachother that will cause the world to know we are disciples looks like? These discussions can be had in a much more respectful manner.

@BRNRDNCK

3 жыл бұрын

Love doesn’t exclude frustration. Flowers has been at this for YEARS and it never improves.

@jermoosekek1101

7 ай бұрын

Respectful doesn’t always mean nice.

James- in minute 17-18 you say that Flowers believes that man does not need grace to respond to the Gospel because man has the ability in himself (I’m paraphrasing). You are correct in explaining what Flowers teaches. This teaching is called Pelagianism. As we all know Pelagian was excommunicated in 418 and labeled as a HERETIC. So why do you continue to call Flowers your “brother” in Christ? You should be calling for him to repent and believe the Gospel. This is not an “in house” debate. This man is teaching heresy and relabeling it “provisionism”. You need to be telling the people listening to Flowers that he is a “false teacher” and a “heretic”. Shame on you for allowing this James.

I'm sorry but isn't that Celtic looking cross in the background with the circle around it kind of pagan originated. I'm asking genuinely i'm not totally sure and would love to be educated.

@patquint3291

3 жыл бұрын

Dalton Dupre Wedding rings are pagan in origin.

@daltondupre8837

3 жыл бұрын

@@patquint3291 yes indeed, rings in general are as are birthdays. any of our widely celebrated holidays for sure, but I honestly wasn't sure about the cross, but i researched it, thank you som much for your response.

A piece of cake is a consumable. You eat it and its effect on you is soon gone. You must eat another and another and another. Terrible analogy.

I am a bit fan of James White. One of the things he always lectures on is accurately representing the beliefs of cults and other things when dealing with them when it comes up. Why does he seem to have some hatred for Leighton Flowers and never seems to accurately represent the beliefs of him? I just don't see why this is the case. I have been at a crossroads trying to decide what I believe and using James White, of which I am a big fan of and long time listener, and using Leighton to contrast the other view with [of which I am a newer listener mostly just to hear the other side] but to me, as someone from the neutral ground so to say it really just seems Dr. White doesn't represent Dr. Flowers accurately in his beliefs at all. I am all for explanations of why those beliefs may be wrong but I just can't in good faith say that I see Dr. White as giving that accurate representation in the slightest while he seems to be generous enough to give all the cults he deals with on a regular basis. I have been listening to hours and hours and hours and consistently I just hear Dr. White saying things that simply misrepresent what Dr. Flowers [and I guess "provisions" as he calls himself] actually believes. Could we get an accurate representation with a bit more of good faith towards Mr. Flowers so that this debate actually goes somewhere interesting? Otherwise, this is just filling otherwise wonderful dividing line shows with some wastes of time. I still am not fully sure what I believe in Calvinism vs not Calvinism thing, but while I seem to follow Dr. White in many other areas he just doesn't seem to give an honest representation enough to put much trust in what he says in regards to Calvinism. I may have to look elsewhere for assistance from both sides of this debate. This is a real disappointment as I otherwise am a huge fan of everything else he does and almost never miss a dividng line.

@truth7416

3 жыл бұрын

Leighton is exposing White as a false teacher. I see nothing but calvinists praising this Angry, condescending, sarcastic, loveless anti-christ teacher. Tattos like a pagan. Big cross like a Catholic. Shame on you white washed walls. You live in the scripture and think you have achieved salvation from them but you are Blind Dumb brutes slandering our savior Jesus Christ and are following the fake jesus of John Calvin!

Flowers is hilarious lololol

Does Dr. Flowers not even see how ridiculous it is that he never stops telling stories? And laughable stories at that! Why doesn’t he just start reading and exegeting the Scripture for what it is? Why does he not see that? And why does he seem so obsessed with his own ideas? Why is he so fixated on this one issue?

@billyr9162

3 жыл бұрын

Because God hasn't opened his eyes yet. That's why he doesn't see it.

@ethanhocking8229

3 жыл бұрын

Billy R There have been and are many godly Christians who are/were not Calvinists. But Flowers just seems to have a crusade against Calvinism. It’s really bizarre.

@billyr9162

3 жыл бұрын

@@ethanhocking8229 It's not about Calvinism. Calvinism is the disguise that he operates under. Following Jesus is about death to self. Promoting libertarian free will is glorifying self. Calvinism is his scapegoat. It's a false scapegoat. If he knows it then hes an anti-Christ. If he doesn't know it then God's just gonna whip him until he figures it out.

@TKK0812

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah because Jesus never told stories or used analogies to communicate theological truths.

@ethanhocking8229

3 жыл бұрын

@@TKK0812 Jesus is God. His stories themselves were inspired revelation of truth. And if you tell a story to illustrate a point, it's to dramatize a point that already has been made. The problem is, nobody would see Flowers' ideas in Scripture unless he told the stories first.

If ANY Of You haven't see the Debate, at Red Grace with Brother White and Leighton; wow! You will be shocked he's still tryin

Calvinists believe that non-Calvinism is necessarily man-centered, rather than God-centered, if the choice of salvation is left up to the sinner’s own decision to humble themselves, confess their sins and ask God for forgiveness, rather than God irresistibly making the choice for them. Nonetheless, that becomes a moot point if God chose the non-Calvinist paradigm over Calvinism as His system of providence. In other words, how can you tell God that His system of providence is “man-centered” if He ultimately chose it as something that brings Him the most glory? James White: “Provisionism replaces the power of God with possibilities fulfilled by the power of man.” (14:29 - 14:36) In Provisionism, man’s free-will does not change the fact that salvation hinges on God alone. For instance, if a sinner asks God for forgiveness, it remains entirely God’s choice whether to grant it. Consider the analogy of the parable of the Prodigal Son. Did the son’s return in humility force the father to restore him? In that culture, the father may have had the right to simply have him stoned. So, for the father to instead forgive and restore him, after bearing the full cost of his son’s misdeeds, means that it was the father’s unnecessitated, free choice to simply be gracious, when he otherwise didn’t have to.

@Phill0old

3 жыл бұрын

Wow did you just say God can choose not to save someone who comes to Christ? Oh wow. God can choose to make Jesus a liar.

@ScrunchBug22

2 жыл бұрын

Your example here with Provisionism doesn't seem to indicate the position well at all, rather it actually promotes the more Calvinistic understanding. Your example of God choosing to grant the forgiveness or not is placing all the action of forgiveness on the Father, and as @Phil Saunders pointed out, how do you reconcile your example with Jesus saying that all those who come to him will he in no wise cast out? Your example portrays the prodigal (representing us sinners) going to the Father (representing God/Christ), and then you have the Father figure who potentially could choose not to forgive the prodigal, which I agree with you on (God didn't have to forgive us), but His promise to never cast out anyone who comes to him does not seem to square with your example. That would either make him ineffective or a liar. In trying to prove the provisionism interpretation, your example and explanation literally proved the calvinistic interpretation, in my opinion at least.

@richardcoords1610

2 жыл бұрын

@@ScrunchBug22 The point is this: Given the fact that the dad of the prodigal son would have been perfectly justified, culturally speaking, by stoning his son upon returning home after squandering the family money on sinful living, how much better does it make the father look by doing the opposite and showering him with totally undeserved grace instead--when he otherwise didn't have to? It’s the same with God. God would be perfectly justified in “casting out” those who come to Him confessing their sins against Him, but God is all the more glorious by choosing the opposite, by pledging to be gracious, instead. So, in Provisionism, man's autonomous, libertarian free-will choice to ask God for forgiveness doesn’t lessen the absolute God-centeredness of God's free and sole choice to be gracious when He otherwise didn't have to be. Therefore, on what basis is James White claiming that the God-centeredness of the gospel is reduced by Provisionism if man is 100% responsible for his own choice, and God is 100% responsible for His own choice? Both sides are 100% responsible for their own choices. I won't get into a debate. I'll just post that answer to your question, and also point out that Leighton made the same point in his interview with Michael Brown. Dr. Michael Brown with Leighton Flowers on Soteriology101, 43:04-43:52. kzread.info/dash/bejne/mYqptpR_m9urYdo.html

@ScrunchBug22

2 жыл бұрын

@@richardcoords1610 That was explained better than the first attempt. However, I think the argument is that then you could boast in your own asking of forgiveness - that the fact that the prodigal asked for it could mean to him that he still deserved it. I'm not saying it did earn his forgiveness, but it could be misconstrued that way to him. I know personally in my own life that I thought that. Asking for it meant I deserved or earned the right to be forgiven. Nevertheless, I don't think there's any real basis from Scripture for man's 'autonomous free will.' Not based on how Scripture describes our sinful nature since birth post-fall. The only people, IMO, whose wills were in a purely free state, were Adam and Christ. Your will, mine, and the rest of sinner's wills have been in bondage since Adam's sin, and Christ's own will set us free from that bondage.

Flowers response to this: kzread.info/dash/bejne/eq5oq7qoZra_kZM.html

Come over to the provisionist side the air is fresh here

All bark, no bite.

@spacebbq344

3 жыл бұрын

You daily. A toothless threat Johnny is.

I know I'm the oddball but is that a tattoo on james white? Lol

@michaelcunis8329

3 жыл бұрын

Yes, it is. Both arms. The Durbin influence? I personally would never get one.

@michaelcunis8329

3 жыл бұрын

KTTGHMTJWYCBLAC Me too. I can see that the world loves tattoos. If you got one before conversion that’s understandable but to permanently stain your God given body like that is disappointing. I know there’s freedom in Christ but will we some day tune into the dividing line and James will be smoking a cigar and having a beer?

when Speaking of Calvinism... I am I deff for predestination.. i believe God is sovereign.. I believe this to be true.. seeing things unfold in my life, in such a undeniable way... that he is in control.. of all things... to sum up... Although I’ve also came to the conclusion... that if we say we don’t have a “will” or a “way”... then this would be limiting Gods capabilities within his creation... I believe being sovereign.. but also us having some sort of “way”... is something we can’t fathom... and to act as if we fully understand.. or even are close to understanding... is arrogant.. and it seems at times Dr.White/Calvinism is arrogant in this way.. Of course there is many verses to go to... but I believe one that says it all Best... “A man’s goings are from The Lord, how then can a man understand his own way” THIS verse says that we have a “way” but we can’t really understand it... are goings are of the Lord... but we do have a way.. we jus can’t really understand it... So trying to act as if u fully understand “our way” and God sovereignty... is arrogance

So-what101 creates disciples who have learned analogies, examples, metaphors, bla bla bla That's pretty folksy of Flowers who, oddly, speed talks.

The first 8 minutes were about attacking Leighton, and claiming unless you know Greek, you can't read the bible. So confusing!!

“Here fishy, fishy...” Question: Is ever act of man therefore contingent upon God?

@oracleoftroy

3 жыл бұрын

Yes, every act of man is contingent on God. All Christians agree with this. God is creator, man is God's creation. If God didn't create man, man wouldn't exist to act at all, so every one of man's actions is at least contingent on God first creating man.

I love how the James White/Leighton Flowers rivalry will never ever end! Twenty years from this very day, they will still be volleying youtube responses at each other 😆

Romans 9? That's not a Calvinistic Scripture. Let me ask you this. If predestination is true, then God would not have had to harden anyone's heart because people would already be programmed the way they are meant to be. There's just no logic there. Romans 9 covers several themes, none of which is unconditional predestination. Yes, God chose Jacob because He foreknew Jacob wouldn't be so stupid as to sell his birthright for a bowl of lentil stew.

*To challenge the Calvinist’s understanding of John 6:44 “No man CAN (dunatai) come to Me unless the Father draws him, and I will raise him up in the last day”- John 6:44. The word “can” comes from the word “dunamai” (dunatai is 3rd Person singular form, as we see here). With the exact same morphology, we have only seen ONE CASE when someone “can” do a specific task, while the other 75 usages of dunatai was used to show that someone cannot do something (like in John 6:44, 65) In Matthew 3:9, we read where John the Baptist told the Pharisees not say that they are sons of Abraham, “for God ‘can’ (dunatai) raise up children of Abraham from these stones.” But did God raise up children to Abraham from stones? He most certainly didn’t. Therefore, the drawing of God cannot be understood as an effectual action. Indeed, His drawing must proceeds man’s coming... but it His drawing that makes coming to Christ possible- not inevitable. Man “can” come to Christ when drawn, BUT just because he now “can” come, it doesn’t necessarily follow that he will (as seen in Matt 3:9 usage of “can”). If a Jesus intended to convey a Calvinistic understanding of John 6:44, He totally would’ve used “will come to Me” as seen in John 6:37.

@louiscorbett3278

3 жыл бұрын

So is everyone drawn by God?

@progodspeed2311

3 жыл бұрын

@@louiscorbett3278 Yes, all are drawn (John 3:15-16, 5:34, 12:32). The reformed reading of John 6:44 is a non-sequitur, where they say: all who came to Christ were drawn (true), therefore those who didn’t came were not drawn (false). It doesn’t follow for the reasons mentioned in my comment you replied to. This is more consistent with the both the immediate and Scriptural context: all who came to Jesus were drawn (true), but not all who were drawn to Jesus did come (true). I do point to John 5:34... because Jesus told the Jews (who were unbelieving in John 5:40) that He told them “these things that you may be saved.” So, why would Jesus tell them that if God never intended to save them

@billyr9162

3 жыл бұрын

It says no one has the ability unless they are drawn by the father. So you're questioning how well the Father draws. And looks like you're not so confident about the Fathers ability to draw or drag. Some of those pesky humans escape the drawing or dragging like a fish escape the net. The Father is not a perfect fishermen in your thinking. Good thing that's not my father. My father don't miss. He's perfect. All that he draws come to Jesus. 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. You're literally saying God is not effective. The Almighty king of kings Lord of lords creator of heavens and Earth is not effective. You even use the word effectual. It's not an effective dragging because of men. Certainly God desires them to come because hes drawing. But man has the power to thwart God's active and intentional dragging of the man in your thinking. That's not God Almighty. That's god the ineffective. Your words not mine.

@billyr9162

3 жыл бұрын

Your saying God really sucks a drawing. If he draws everybody and he loses most of them then hes just bad at it. That your god.

@progodspeed2311

3 жыл бұрын

​@@billyr9162 Wow, all you did was state your preconceptualized notion on how God ought to behave. Im not arguing how God should go about saving people; rather, I am arguing for what He actually does according to Scripture. John 6:44,65 both say that no one "can" (dunamai- ability) come to Christ unless they are drawn by the Father. Yes, God's drawing causes "ability"... not "inevitability" of an action to be performed! I already demonstrated this in Matt 3:9, where a subject- that being God- was said to have "can" (dunamai- ability) perform a task, but still didn't do that said task. This shows when someone "can" do an act, it doesn't imply that they will do that act. So... tell me why these verses don’t say, "no one WILL COME unless drawn" if Christ was trying to convey a Calvinistic understanding of these verses? Why not use "will come", as in John 6:37, instead of "can come" (potentiality). But alas! The language in John 6 is the kind of language you’d expect for my model of John 6 to be true. The language isn’t consistent with a reformed understanding of John 6.

How does God drawing you to Him confirm predeterminism?

@richardhislop9928

21 күн бұрын

Only the elect are drawn ; those elected before the foundation of the world. "According as He Had chosen "US" in Him, before the foundation of the world. ".. Eph.1:4..

@MyRoBeRtBaKeR

21 күн бұрын

@@richardhislop9928 US, instead of all men in Adam, you choose to add elect. Just as all men are dead in Adam, all men will be made alive in Christ. 1 Corinthians 15:22 King James Version 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. You add to the Word, plagues will be added to you!

@richardhislop9928

21 күн бұрын

Totally misunderstood.. The Power to bear all types of men, immense POWER.. All types of men came from Adam.. "but to some it has not been given, that's why I speak in parables to my own, lest the others see, hear, understand and turn.". Messiah's own words.. You can't use the universal "all,"- because Yeshua is not going to ultimately make ever single man alive eternally ; And if you say potentially, then the comparison restricts itself to WHOM YESHUA ULTIMATELY CHOOSES TO BEAR, SINCE HE IS MAKING MEN ALIVE.. GET IT.. Yeshua is ultimately choosing THE "ALL" TO MAKE ALIVE.. Therefore ALL in Yeshua, as all in Adam.. Therfore, it's as sure as all men were made dead in Adam, that all men will be made Alive in Yeshua.. "I will lose NONE OF THEM."..

@MyRoBeRtBaKeR

21 күн бұрын

@@richardhislop9928 Are all mem dead in Adam?

@richardhislop9928

21 күн бұрын

@@MyRoBeRtBaKeR Yes, absolutely dead.. Adam made them dead.. However, the analogy is conflating the power of the both Fountain heads, Adam and Yeshua, to absolutely make "ALL" of their kind alive.. Adam produced all of his, dead.. Yeshua will ultimately produce all of His, ALIVE.. Disavow yourself from believing that all men everywhere, since Yeshua died, have been automatically made alive, as Adam's were.. We know that has, and will never happen ; but that's what your heart wants the text to say, even though ridicilulous.. Therefore that universalist premis can't be applied.. All men everywhere won't be alive onto Yeshua, in the end.. The text is honing in on the axiomatic capacity of both men.. The Father's Sons have been appointed to come from The one obedient Son.. Thusly, ALL of His sons, will've been made Righteous by Him.. "I will lose NONE.".. YES, AND IT'S CLEAR THAT SOME ARE LOST, AND WILL BE LOST, IN THE END ; so how can Yeshua say that He will positively lose NONE?.. Yeshua's deliberate action, has been compared to Adam's deliberate action ; the certainty in which He will make ALL ALIVE ; THE CONTEXT BEING, HIS..

James Whitehead needs to wear a cross so people know he is a believer, after they hear his confusing commentaries and constant attacks on the bible.

Bïrthðäy party 🎂🎉 & cakes🍰🍰🍰🍰🍰with the word of GOD?! huh? where is the coherent?! MORE LIKE TWIST 🔀 & TURN💐💮🏵️🌻🌼Flowers justifying his belief

Yup it almost slipped out of your mouth. Yes it's the power of the gospel Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek 1 Corinthians 1:18 For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

@oracleoftroy

7 ай бұрын

Yes. And? You seem to play as if that would be bad for White, but isn't it bad for anyone who makes the gospel about man and what he does to save himself? It's God's gospel and God, not man, is the savior.

@Jebron_G

7 ай бұрын

@oracleoftroy The gospel is the good news for all MEN MEN. It is about God humbling himself and entering our world to save MEN. Yes MEN. It is about MEN. AND God CHOSE to save ONLY those MEN who BELIEVE. BELIEVE BELIEVE. Who are you to question his ways?

@oracleoftroy

7 ай бұрын

@@Jebron_G His ways or your ways? Dont uphold yourself too highly. My question was about your post. Is there something about this that you think White would dislike? I still don't see why you wrote what you wrote. Don't you know that even our belief is the work of God (Jn 6: 29), authored by Christ and not man (Heb 12: 2), and given as part of the gift of salvation by grace through faith (Eph 2: 8)? If you are trying to make belief something you create in yourself and give to God in payment for salvation, then I could see why you are upset that White teaches salvation by grace alone. There is no room to be like God when everything needed for salvation is from God alone and all man provides is the sin he needs saving from.

@Jebron_G

7 ай бұрын

@oracleoftroy First, try to understand basic context. Take off your calvinism glasses before you read the bible. You really butchered scripture!! Wow I'm not going to assume you're intentionally mis interpreting scripture to make your non biblical point, but in John 6, Jesus is not saying to believe in God is something God does for us. ( only in your brain ). Wonder if you learned that from James White? Just few verses earlier, they asked Jesus what must WE do to BE doing the work of God. Cause they were doing works that only feed the flesh!! ‭‭John‬ ‭6:28‬ ‭ [28] Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” He replied, believing in Jesus is doing God's work. ‭‭John‬ ‭6:29‬ ‭ [29] Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.” NOT how you cunningly interpreted what he said. Like i told you many times, THEY must belive believe believe believe in whom God has sent to BE ( THEM) Doing the work of God ( His answer to their question). Stop misleading people!! Also, anything good is a gift from God. My next breath is a gift. He gave us free will and we could use his gifts to glorify God or not. It's HIS way NOT mine. For God so Loved the WORLD so WHOSEVER BELIEVEs BELIEVEs BELIEVEs shall not perish but have eternal life. By grace, we have been saved thru FAITH, not of works shall no man boast. Boasting comes when people DO/PERFORM good DEEDS/ WORKS. No one boasts because they have faith IN their heart. So Paul was saying we are saved tru faith and not thru works. If we believe we can have this free gift of salvation. It's free, meaning you don't need to work for it. Just accept it thru FAITH.

I don't think John 6 is teaching unconditional election. I think it's teaching the necessity of self-abandoning faith as the means of being saved

@richardhislop9928

21 күн бұрын

Read it again.. "No man can come except it be granted by the Father. ".. 6.65.. The Power to come, believe, see, hear, is given..

@bobpolo2964

21 күн бұрын

@@richardhislop9928 I agree that faith is a gift. I think Jesus' point in that context is to persuade his listener's to abandon their self-dependence.

@richardhislop9928

21 күн бұрын

5000 men left Him.. He wasn't trying to persuade anyone.. He stood His ground, and preached "HARD WORDS," NOT PERSUASIVE WORDS.. "Master, these are "HARD WORDS," WHO CAN HEAR THEM??" ; pretty far from persuasive.. "Will you leave also?.. "He that eats my flesh and drinks my blood" ; this has to be Given to you to see Yeshua as meat and drink.. "If you come to Me you'll never hunger.". "If you believe in Me you'll never thirst.".. Coming and believing is the same metaphor for coming.. "No man can come except it be Given to come/believe in Yeshua.. Don't grumble among yourselves.. The deal has been sealed.. Power has been Granted to the elect, to COME.. Fear God!!

@bobpolo2964

21 күн бұрын

@@richardhislop9928 Your tone is rough, friend. Take care.

@richardhislop9928

21 күн бұрын

@@bobpolo2964 what??.. Will u leave also, then?? .. Thanks for the compliment, to my hard words.. The servant is not above his master.. They will hate me as they hated Messiah..

1. Why is James White asking ppl who were not decreeded to believe and understand like him to understand like him and his elected status. Isnt that a complete waste if time. 2. How does White knows that he is one of the elect. 3. What does White want or expect to hear from those who were unelected. Remember they can't do anything accordingly to his and Calvinism reading of the texts. White should enjoy his elected status and stop trying to burst a vessel over ppl who cant understand as interpreted by him. One thing he displays clearly in that he was elected to be sarcastic, he also has the gift of belittling and mocking the (unlected) White is the classic manifestation of scholarship that lost its spiritualty.

@oracleoftroy

7 ай бұрын

1. Who would that be? How do you know? White isn't God, FYI. It seems weird to expect him to know things only God knows. 2. Through the witness of God's work in his people. 3. What liar are you listening to that falsely claims people can't do anything according to Calvinism? They are clearly not a Christian that they would lie so blatantly. You should read some actual Calvinist texts and decide for yourself. I recommend the Westminster Confession as something readily available and relatively brief that still lays out Calvinism in a good amount of detail.

But seriously to diss orthodox theology is to to diss a really important tradition which is there to inform something that legalism misses.

Calvinism in it's very essence is defiance against what scriptures says as a whole. Calvinism is against the Gospel itself

@billyr9162

3 жыл бұрын

Free will worship is anti-Christ.

@jamestomas6624

3 жыл бұрын

@@billyr9162 Ok mr roboto! My God wants us to love him from our own convictions because he loved us first, and not as a programmed individual that loves him because God programmed us.

@billyr9162

3 жыл бұрын

@@jamestomas6624 Us yes. Them no.

You can tell James has no answer to a critique when he gets angry.

@FabledNarrative

10 ай бұрын

False. James is READING scripture and that is his response. Leighton uses stories, James uses scripture.

@livingforjesus8551

10 ай бұрын

​​@@FabledNarrative Satan also used scripture, I see a lot of people use scripture, that doesn't mean anything, is the scripture rightly interpretaed. When I see clear verses like, everything was created for his pleasure in Revelation, and compare it to verses that say, God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, and to what Jesus said, that hell was prepared for the devil, and his angels, and then see the verse in Isaiah, that says, he'll has enlarged herself to accommodate men. I can only come to the conclusion, that calvinistic teachings that God only choose some to be saved, and to hell with the rest of them, that calvinsim is false, and I can't support such a system, that teaches the opposite of what the Bible teaches. They even tell people not to tell others that God loves them, because it could mislead them. Well God does live them, why would he tell us to live our enemies, when he doesn't, besides, we were all enemies of God at one point, and I know you know about John 3:16, so that means, God loves his enemies too. Not to mention the verse that says, and that while we were yet sinners, Chrsit died for us. That means while we were still God's enemies, he sent his Son to die for us, because he loves us.

@IowaBlue24

9 ай бұрын

You are using scripture, should I assume you are working for Satan then? What is your standard for hermeneutic? Do you allow the clear passages to speak for themselves in context, or do you make up heart warming stories to explain difficult passages? @@livingforjesus8551

@jermoosekek1101

7 ай бұрын

@@livingforjesus8551yes but does Christ die for every man? Because if so. The death of Christ doesn’t save at all. Because it still relies on the choice that we can boast in that we are saved by. No matter how humbly we present that this choice wasn’t of ourselves you cant say that. Unless salvation is all of Christ.

@livingforjesus8551

7 ай бұрын

@@jermoosekek1101 So, what does the words, "WHOLE WORLD," in 1 John 2:2, mean to you? 1 John 2:2 King James Version 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

James this is how ridiculous reformed theology is. God made Leighton do it..

James White I don't know if you are aware, but you are coming across as extremely frustrated and angry. I have never seen you use the same tone and mannerisms with Muslims. You accuse others of adding to the text or having presuppositions but when you read John 3:16 do you not do the same. Do you not change the meaning of whosoever? Do you not think that Calvinists have presuppositions? I just wish you had the same grace towards Dr Flowers as you do with Muslims

@aaronman3352

3 жыл бұрын

What you need to understand is that he and Leighton Flowers have been interacting for years. They even tried a debate but Leighton Flowers continued to analogy his way out of everything. White will post a video, and Leighton will spend 3 hours responding to him. There have even been times where it appears quite plainly that Leighton will misrepresent something white says, such as focusing on the ending statement of one of whites teachings, ignoring everything he said before to accuse him. So white loses patience with Leighton because Leighton is completely relentless in attacking Calvinism and white all while consistently misrepresenting both the doctrines and White. I do believe it borders slander and it's been happening for literally years

@wonderfulcounselor7233

3 жыл бұрын

Flowers deserves the reactions he gets for all the time he spends working against Reformed people like James white and our beliefs. Flowers is not a victim he is the instigator.

@electronicMI

3 жыл бұрын

Wayne Whittaker wrote: " I just wish you had the same grace towards Dr Flowers as you do with Muslims" Paul explains: “For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?” (1 Corinthians 5:12)

@WayneFocus

3 жыл бұрын

You are doing the same thing you accuse Dr Flowers of doing ignoring all and missing the point. James White is free to respond, my wish was for more grace, it's as simple as that. Have you ever seen him have that tone with. Muslim?

@SDRBass

3 жыл бұрын

That's because Leighton Flowers should know better. He puts himself out as an exegete but then admits that he doesn't have full command of Koine Greek. Then he goes off and uses analogies such as "choice meats" as if believers are the better cuts of ribeye at the supermarket. To borrow from John Calvin, it's the epitome of carnal stupidity. Not only that, I consider it straight up blasphemy. I shudder at the idea of having to defend that tripe in front of a thrice holy God. To name the name of Christ and then put out that kind of nonsensical garbage is *inexcusable.*

The relevant verses: Yeshua said to them, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will not be hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. But I told you that you have seen me, and yet you don’t believe. All those whom the Father gives me will come to me. He who comes to me I will in no way throw out. No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him; and I will raise him up in the last day. It is written in the Prophets, ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who hears from the Father and has learned, comes to me. Most certainly, I tell you, he who believes in me has eternal life. I am the bread of life. Yochanan 6:35‭-‬37‭, ‬44‭-‬45‭, ‬47‭-‬48 World Messianic Bible (P.S I'm not a Messianic Jew, just like the translation.) My interpretation has recently become this: Jesus in these verses lays out the steps to being raised up at the last day to eternal life, from top to bottom; You're raised up at the last day, because you came believing in Jesus. You came believing in Jesus, because the Father drew you. You were drawn, because you heard from the Father and learned. Reversing the order to chronological; The Father teaches you and you learn from the Father, therefore you are drawn by the Father to Jesus, which results in you coming in Faith to Jesus, who in turn will raise you up at the last day. I agree that, all who are drawn by the Father will necessarily come to Jesus, and those coming and believing (coming & believing seem interchangeable here), are necessarily raised. BUT, before being raised, and believing/coming, and being drawn, we are told that the individual was taught by God and had learned. Does the person necessarily as well then, being taught, learn? Does being taught also necessarily result in learning, the same way being drawn necessarily results in coming etc? I say no, because who is Jesus speaking to? A group of unbelieving Jews, arguing and complaining at Jesus's teaching. And in ch5, Jesus already said that he only does & says what the Father sent him to do & say. So, in their case, they were presently in ch6, being taught by God the Father, through Jesus explaining what true faith is and leads to. Yet, even as they were being taught by the Father through Jesus here, they did not learn. They refused to listen, complained about words and didn't pay attention, and so missed out on learning. No one can come to Jesus unless drawn, yes. But you're drawn because, having been taught by God, you learned. But, as with Jesus's audience, you can be taught and not learn a thing. The breaking point is not when you're drawn, it's between the being taught and being drawn part, did you learn what you were taught? Only if you learned, will the Father draw you. The Father's drawing is selective, and has an absolute effect, coming and believing, yes. But being taught is universal, and does not likewise have an absolute effect. The Father teaches all, yet not all learn. But all who do learn, are drawn. Being taught here, is the only step that does not necessitate a specific result, the drawing. The rest necessarily results in the rest. Are you drawn? Then you come and believe. Do you come believing? Then you are raised.

John 6:44 does not speak on predestination, let alone predeterminism. God drawing us in speaks about being able to see Jesus as the Messiah. Matthew 16:17 “And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.” John 6:45 King James Version 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. John 14:9 King James Version 9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father? The Gospel is what draws us into God and in turn gives to Jesus. 1 Corinthians 1:16-18 King James Version 16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. 17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Mr. White- Why don't you use your critical thinking skills and historical knowledge to defend the faith against Bart Ehrman? Unfortunately he defeated you in a debate. You looked like a kid in the same room with an idol. I was rooting for you because I am a Christian, but he beat you. Why don't you aim your attention at him and defend the faith and try to do what you previously failed to do? You may disagree with Flowers. But Flowers is a Christian and he is leading some to Christ. So you disagree on predestination. Who cares? Bart Ehrman is misleading people against Christ. William Lane Craig was able to defeat Ehrman, but Craig is getting older. I'm not sure Frank Turek has the textual ability to go toe to toe vs. Ehrman. I urge you to consider refocusing your attention.

I made it 14 minutes and I had to stop. Regarding calvinism Dr. White, your videos are getting worse and worse, and at this point I *have* to conclude you are either being malicious, which I wont do, or that you have sunk so far into your wilting tulip that you literally cannot understand another point of view accurately, whether you agree or not. I engaged with 3 people on this page the other day and asked them to steel man Flowers position, and not one of them would attempt to do so. Can you do that Dr. White? My opinion is you either need to have a discussion with him or just stop. Hiding behind this "well we already did this and you saw what happened" is not only misguided but also just a blatant excuse. You continue to demonstrate you have not the slightest clue what Leighton is saying in some of these things, you just go on and on about absolute nothingness. It's telling that on one hand you say that you won't engage with him because "We all saw what happened last time", but then you continue to engage with his content! If you'll engage with his content, then engage with him! I don' think you will, because (and this is purely my opinion) I think you know that your feet will be held to the fire, you'll have to represent him and his view accurately, and you won't get to continue to in the safety of your own studio, rip on his analogies that you don't understand or his career or how much time he spends on Soteriology 101 or take shots like his view exposing people to Catholicism or labeling him a semi-pelagian. You're better than this Dr White, and if you believe you are on firm ground, then dialogue with him.

@SteveMul3ya

3 жыл бұрын

Watch the rest of the video.

@wonderfulcounselor7233

3 жыл бұрын

@kidder so what is flowers "career" then?

@billyr9162

3 жыл бұрын

I just did engage with Flowers in the video.

@billyr9162

3 жыл бұрын

@@r.rodriguez4991 He just stated flowers position perfectly. He stated his position multiple times.

@philblagden

3 жыл бұрын

Dude, Flowers is the one with an entire KZread channel devoted to attacking (and misrepresenting) beliefs of Reformed Christians. Dr White addresses Roman Catholicism, Islam, Mormonism and various other errors. They already debated Romans 9 and Flowers admitted his exegesis of the chapter was not consistent. He lost the debate.

"You will know my consistency." Free will is a far more consistent them in the Bible than predestination. I don't think it's necessary bad to use other verses to interpret a passage. Actually, that is one failure of Calvinists. I have never seen White win a debate. I truly wish he would have defeated Ehrman.

@jessejimenez1793

2 жыл бұрын

Is not what you think, is using the rules of interpretation, that what matters, I think I think I think...that not real faith, we Calvinist, have conviction in our beliefs, I won't deny, that there are some brother’s belief in Calvinist doctrine....they still need some growing...because they are saved, and God is going to finish what God started in them You say that what you teach is very clear in the bible, when a person puts on the glasses of his tradition, and of his preconceptions, it is certain that he will see what he want to see, and what about of the passages that clearly says, that man has no will, ...that's when they start jumping like grasshoppers all over the bible, they completely forget the contexts....that first iuou need to understand that passages first, a passage that you are afraid of, and refuse to exegete that passage, that is a lack of integrity and loyalty to God..do you think that God is pleased with that...not all .... examine yourselves if you are in the faith... Paul said that the faith is not for everyone 2 thes. 3: 2 and so that we may be delivered from wicked men, since faith is not for everyone.

@arnolddonaldson7129

2 жыл бұрын

@@jessejimenez1793 Yesterday you used Lamentations as the key passage to support predestination. Lamentations is not a book of doctrine. All Scripture is inspired, but it is useful for different things, such as teaching, correcting, etc. Lamentations is not a book to build a doctrine of salvation on. And besides, the verse you used yesterday goes far beyond what I think you even believe. In that verse, humans have no responsibility, accountability, or culpability, even if they are poor because they choose not to work. That is why I asked you whether God orders millions and millions abortions a year. The Bible claims that God hates murder. So do you really think God would order abortions? I am a Baptist. Traditionally, Baptists have believed in predestination. Now more Baptists believe in free will. But your argument from tradition really doesn't make much sense. What does hurt your argument is that Irenaeus and Polycarp- two early Christian writers connected to the Apostle John- both were free will. Actually, it was hundreds of years in early Christianity until the doctrine of predestination was developed. Augustine was the one who put it on the map. I have an extremely high view of God. Thus, I don't think God wants His people to be puppets. He could have made us puppets. But He chose to create us in His image, which means we have the ability to critically think and make choices. Peter claims that the reason God hasn't returned yet is because he is a God of mercy and wants to give time for people to repent because He wants no one to go to hell. Peter also claims that Paul is confusing. With that said, is there any reason to go against Peter on this issue, the person who had been with Jesus for 3 years of earthly ministry? I urge you to listen to Mike Winger's take on predestination. You may disagree with him, but Winger is humble and approaches the topic Scripturally. He makes a very good case that Romans 9 is about divine hardening and not predestination. Without Romans 9, I think the doctrine of predestination relies on Ephesians 1 and John 6. That is not very much Scriptural evidence. Do you remember Joshua saying, "choose for yourselves which gods you are going to serve, but for me and my household we will serve the Lord?" Do you remember God telling Cain that if he does what is good then good things will happen but if he does what is evil then sin is crouching at his door? These verses hardly depict humans that cannot make important salvation decisions. Jesse, I think you are too tied to the doctrine of predestination. To the point that if someone doesn't agree with you, then they are not saved. Correct me if you do not think that way. But if you do, then I think that is very harmful for your relationships with other brothers and sisters in Christ. I am friends with those who believe in free will and those who believe in predestination. Justin Peters is one of my favorite Christian speakers. I love Justin although we disagree concerning free will. Do you accept those who believe in free will as your brothers and sisters in Christ?

@jessejimenez1793

2 жыл бұрын

@@arnolddonaldson7129 No friend, you want to be the center of everything, you decide your salvation, it is not God, ...when you appear in the day of judgment, you will see that God is sovereign and will be Just in send you to hell....because you did not want to humble yourself ... .the center is God, not you... this is a doctrine that is going to destroy you and many ... that's how the Arminians began...and they considered them heretics, many lost their jobs were banished by heretics they almost finished them, but lately they have begun to resurface, with another heresy greater than theirs, and keep on growing ... that is why the Lord says that we are a small herd ... denying the sovereignty of God, attracts other heresies, little by little God is withdrawing his lamp from their.church, that teaches this heresy...that's why there are so many dead Baptist churches ... this is a frontal attack from the devil to sound doctrine, I am reformed here I stay, ...the devil will not be able to deceive the true children of God, ....when you say that we should consider them as brother , that's what Satan wants, ...the water It is not mixed with oil, ....the bible makes it clear that if someone brings a crooked doctrine, do not receive him in their homes or call him brother... I will never side with the heretics, (God take care of me and keep me I pray) , that's why the apostates are growing more and more every day in the church ... the devil knows that he has little time left, that's why his brutal attack on the Lord's church ... something else you said and I didn't....but I was going to give you this passage 2 Tim 3: 16-17 that you deny as the word of God, this book of lamentation was inspired by God, and what it says there is useful, we can extract teaching, of course, read well 2 Timothy 3: 16-17 read it in context, when it says "ALL THE SCRIPTURE" means it is all ... but they have come so low that you want to set your rules, where do you get that lamentation we cannot subtract teaching? Who do you think you are devil? The Lord rebuke you ... Second and last, you said that the doctrine we teach makes puppets, no it does not...I have will, you have will...now man can be less evil if he wants to , and he does it, ...but his motivation to change is always for his benefit. , that is not valid for God, as works don't help us to enter heaven, man is not saved by works but by faith .... But our will is subject to the sovereignty of God, he control’s man sin so he can not it will not get out of control, God said in genesis my spirit will not always fight with your spirit I will give you 120 years to repent, during that time God will started to remove his hand that restricted sin and men worsen .... Ephesians 2: 8 is a key passage to see that the faith of man does not save him, is by the faith of Jesus, ....now finally in the fall man died, that was the warning given to Adam and Eve ... that is why the Lord told Nicodemus that he needed to be born again ... so salvation is from God and God, is the one who initiates salvation, because what can a dead person do? nothing absolutely nothing ... NOW THE PREDESTINATION IS BIBLICAL Ephesians 1: 4-5 according to him he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons to himself through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of his will...very clear I will not talk again I will not answer , you can have the last word if you want to, I have spoken my peace ...you are not my brother

@arnolddonaldson7129

2 жыл бұрын

@@jessejimenez1793 I give you concrete examples of free will and you take an excerpt from the book of Lamentations out of its original context to support a false doctrine. The boo of Lamentations was written by one person to a certain group of people at a certain time. It is not prose, it is it's own literary technique. Trying to undo what a New Testament epistle says clearly by using a section from Lamentations which you take out of context does not make sense. The author of the Lamentation you quoted is encouraging us to have faith in the Lord. He is not trying to write a doctrine of predestination. Of course God is the Almighty. And it is His desire to give us free will so we can truly choose Him. If we do not have the power to deny Jesus, then we truly cannot accept Him. Jesse, do you believe in believer's baptism or infant baptism? If you believe that it is ok to baptize infants, then that is incredibly unbiblical. Why is it that most the people who believe in predestination baptize infants? Why do you call me an Arminium? I"m not an Arminium. I am a Christian. Just think for a second. Polycarp knew the Apostle John. Ireneanus was tutored by Polycarp. Why do Ireneaneus and Polycarp both believe in free will? The Apostlic tradition is free will and we know that from the early Christians. I have treated you with respect and I am not sure how I could have refuted your points successfully in kinder fashion than I did. If you want to speak theology, I am here.

@jessejimenez1793

2 жыл бұрын

@@arnolddonaldson7129 stop it have the dignity when go stop, I have rejected you already, I don't want here your rubbish...

Oh Dr. White, you have a solid fan base; I'll give you that. This is an old video, but people still share it. Bummer. Wish you weren't like this. Your attitude is awful.