Just an informercial for battle born. Real world for me is my 3 batteries costing $240 has powered my RV more than 260 days off grid. My set up is 200 watts of solar and 200 amps of usable battery and total cost was $585. No longer think about batteries just use them. Life is good.

@bryanmontello5702

10 күн бұрын

Awesome, I'm planning to do this for my gf. She lives in the Philippines so the grid is 220 there

I don't think this video will shock me, for I am well grounded.

@clayed

3 жыл бұрын

I don't think this video will shock me, for I am well insulated.

@LEIGHTONSTEW

3 жыл бұрын

But you did gt a charge out of it , yes?

@dallassukerkin6878

3 жыл бұрын

@@LEIGHTONSTEW Beat me to it! Now I am flat ... ...

@1boobtube

3 жыл бұрын

@@clayed The best way to live up to your potential.

@rickquick8977

3 жыл бұрын

Good to know dad jokes aren't dead yet.

The whole point for AGM versus flooded lead was the electrolyte wouldn’t spill and required less maintenance. It was never really designed to perform better but was designed for mobile use in boats, cars, motorcycles. This analysis would have been more useful if you had tested deep cycle golf cart batteries instead of cheapo versions. BTW I purchased Trojans for less per AH than the cheapo Sam’s club deep cycle batteries.

@DrJoonPark

6 ай бұрын

This!

@user-my8zo8uh3n

5 ай бұрын

AND ALOT MORE FIRE PROOF LOL....

@jeffreyumeh8580

4 ай бұрын

@@user-my8zo8uh3n Dude these are LFP Lithium Ion cells, people have drilled holes in them and nothing has happened, like don't tempt fate or anything because these is a lot of potential energy in those cells, but they are pretty darn safe as long as you don't have a lot of other cells to feed into them without a fuse to stop massive amounts of current going into 1 cell, like in the case of a car battery even if you make it out of LFP cells like you have to have a lot of cells in series to get the 100s of volts they want, but for 12 to 48V systems where you can put breakers or fuses between each parrellel string of batteries it's stupid safe. You are thinking about NMC cells, which nobody sells those anymore for residential energy storage, yeh they get used in phones and EVs because the weight and size matters a lot of those use cases, but for a house battery the extra safety and the increase in the number of cycles from 1000 to 5000 cycles of LFP is more than worth the extra volume and weight.

@spanishtreasure9551

3 ай бұрын

and theres more , agm or lead acid will out last a lithium batteyr due to lithuim battery having a bms charging board inside that fails over time,(right when you least expect it) , this bms electronics( lead acid and agm Dont have ANY charging electronics) cant handle in and out current (NO matter what the company rep , china or the warranty says) . also as many marine guys do on here and show , you can mix 2 or 3 agm or lead acid batteries to every 1 lithium and tie them together resulting in Great power that compliments each other .

@dreddredd7137

2 ай бұрын

@@user-my8zo8uh3n You got that right . When i was looking on this subject for power storage my first impression was that lithium has a lot of advantages against other battery's exept fires , and i saw many of them with this kind of battery's . Its called Termal Runaway , its heating up ( by a bad BMS and / or because of the chemical reaction ) and fires break out and even explosions occure . Now that is reason enough to not buying these and take the best ( affordable ) one in line ( AGM ) i also give you a reason what else can occure and make these systems to throw away . Ever heard of the Carrington Event from 1859 and the fires and shocks that event deliverd , that is called Geo Induced Current . Spaceweather and KP-Index storms can cause to electrical components ( BMS ) to fail ( and maybe even start chemical processes ) and because the earths magnetic field is declining fast the impact of smal storms can be enormous . This means much more of these lithium fires the can burn for days or even weaks , very bad if that is the place where you live and have your stuff and foods .

After reading many reviews and watching a lot of videos, I chose this option for my first backup power station. kzread.infoUgkxHypYDKHAN93Lp2RQpfvU_ksc70wJ00pt I was between this and a larger option that could power a wider range of items, but the price/size/capacity blend seemed right for this unit. Hasn't gotten a ton of use yet, but the build quality is solid and it charges fine via the Rockpals solar panel I purchased to pair with it. One thing to note is that the screen is optimized for a top down viewing angle, which makes sense, but this means it washes out at other angles - especially low angles. Not a huge deal, but perhaps a better option for the display could be used to provide wider viewing angles.

quote 'Disclaimer: Battle Born Batteries paid for the tests we performed' Nuff said

@bradenmackey8116

3 жыл бұрын

so a 40 minute video of all the testing is worth nothing just because a company paid for them to do it?

@richardwagner8498

3 жыл бұрын

Dunning Kruger effect ?

@DaveMartin-co8et

3 жыл бұрын

@@bradenmackey8116 Not at all. This 40 minute video is worth a lot to the people at BattleBorn. As for an actual user, one should be aware that there is a significant underlying bias here. For example the statement at 33:40 "lead-acid batteries are just not reliable to be used in a power application." This ignores the historical fact that lead-acid batteries have been used quite successfully in a variety of power applications for more than 100 years. I would not claim that lithium batteries are crap but it is foolhardy and ignorant to suggest that lead-acid batteries don't have any place in power applications. I use flooded lead-acid (not AGM's) in an RV that I use 20 or 30 nights per year. I recharge with a generator and with solar panels and a cheap PWM charge controller that has user selectable charge voltages and is temperature compensated. My setup has served me well for the past three years. While lithium batteries would probably deliver more watt-hours than I currently get, the BattleBorn batteries cost about 7 times what I paid. They would not be a good value for the way I use batteries in my RV.

@ezew4144

3 жыл бұрын

I agree I have been heavily in the solar and battery spaces and it baffles me that they are pushing lithium so heavy. None of these folks can attest to a lithium set of batteries lasting 10 years, or 2000 to 5000 cycles. While NiFe batteries are tried and true to thousands of cycles and can have electrolytes replaced. We're talking a lifetime of use. By all means NiFe are not reasonable for RVs but let's be real who is using a RV in the way they are saying how many days out of the year is a person using a RV . Its crazy that he mentions battleborn by name but not the others, and also didn't use another brand of lithium as well as the battleborn. I personally think OPZV batteries are second to NiFe whith 2000 to 3000 cycles for a stationary say solar setup. I get RVs have limited access and space but again. It goes back to buying a cheaper battery every couple of years to dropping 4 k for some lithium batteries that you use 3 times a year maybe. I think the hype is so that they can get alot of their stock out before solid state batteries hit the market. Those will truly bring the rugged and longevity seen in NiFe along with less weight and more power density. Let's be real if your discharging a lithium battery the same as we do our phones we all know that now after 1.5 years a phones battery is toast and thats maybe hitting 1000 cycles. Also the electronics needed to fully utilize lithium is issue prone not just in a charge controller (very specific) but the batteries themselves have electronics bms etc. Realistically I look at lithium as great for small electronics, evs, and certain other applications but they are not the best for every situation requiring battery storage.

@jimthomas777

3 жыл бұрын

Not only did Battle Born Batteries pay for these test , These guys get paid a commission for every battery sold , So the better the report , the more sales of batteries and more commissions are paid , So if I say they suck I don't get paid and if I say that they are great I get paid , Great or Suck ? That is a really difficult question to answer when you are broke and need money for food

Great video but the general claim at the end that Lead acid "are not reliable to be used in a power application" is utter garbage. They are now no longer the most cost effective way, but they have been used in power applications for an extremely long time. We have been using them to power entire hotels on fraser island for over 3 decades, back when Lithium ion batteries were still at >$10,000 per kilowatthour.

Whom ever created the science for this video, hats off to you. A perfect set of data points to push lithium, while ignoring industry standards on how AGM/Lead Acid batteries are tested and rated for their specifications. A lead acid battery's capacity is not determined by a 'loaded' battery and voltage, but instead by a specific time at rest, after discharge. Those AGM batteries were not at 50% DoD, at any of the specified load tests. Honestly, its great marketing! Nice job.

@AiChatbot443

2 жыл бұрын

Crazy we are here at the same time thinking the same thing.

Great video! I'm afraid some of the manufacturer specs may have been taken out of context. They are OCV (open circuit voltage). BCI (Battery Council International) regulates how lead acid batteries are spec'd, 100% DoD is 1.75v per cell or 10.5v for a 12v battery. The voltage drop in the 80A case will cause the lead acid capacities to be misrepresented dramatically. The Peukert Constant for a lead acid is around 1.3, whereas Li Ion does very well with a constant of less that 1.1, so Li Ion will still win this battle but by a lesser margin. Including cost, or dollar-per-watt-hour, you might be impressed at how well lead acid does. Also, were the lead acid batteries equalized regulary? For the the record, I'm a power electronics engineer and have worked for a Li Ion manufacturer and ran a lead acid desulfation research company.

@DW11111

2 жыл бұрын

I've noticed he likes every comment that cheerleads his video but glosses over constructive comments like yours. Kind of adds to my notion this was just a 36 minute ad for Battle Born disguised as an experiment.

@ahuramazda323

2 жыл бұрын

Have you noticed he did not reply to you? Its because of the hidden agenda here.

@DW11111

2 жыл бұрын

@@ahuramazda323 I tend to agree with you. In Canada you can get one of these 12v 100AH batteries or eight GC2 6v for the same spend. So for a true apples to apples in terms of dollar cost he should have had 4 banks in parallel which would have lowered both the current draw out of each bank and lessened the DoD for a given amount of power. I think one would have gotten more capacity and a more aggressive ROI for that type of lead acid setup if he made the spend for the batteries equal. If you have a packaging, space, or weight constraint like the battery box in an RV, okay, I see the point of the methodology, but to make a blanket statement that Battle Born..erm... lithium ion is the most cost effective solution for *every* situation including home backup power I don't believe is true. Like I said in another comment, if this was TRULY about just about lithium ion vs lead acid, he should have gotten another brand lithium and withheld names of those like he did for the lead acid, but then Battle Born probably wouldn't have paid for the 36 minute ad...erm... "experiment".. if that had happened. (edited to fix typos)

@solarwind907

2 жыл бұрын

I thought of your point regarding open circuit voltage versus voltage under a load. To someone who knows batteries like yourself, it’s obvious that if you have a battery under a 50 amp load and compare to 1 under a 5 amp load, The higher the load, the lower the voltage even at the exact same state of charge and the same temp. You are correct that the voltage/SOC numbers given by the lead acid batt manus assume room temperature and no load conditions. FYI, I’m not an engineer but I have worked on power systems with flooded and AGM lead acid batteries for decades and my field experience agrees with yours. It was great for me to read your comment :-). Thank you.

@user-ze7tl2dw4i

2 жыл бұрын

This is what we need the dislike button for.

Good stuff Tom. The results don't surprise me, but it's nice to see it confirmed. Keep the good stuff coming.

I served on diesel-electric submarines for 7 years. We had two main batteries on the last submarine I served on. Each battery consisted of 126 lead-acid cells that weighed about 1200 pounds when filled with electrolyte (distilled water and acid). Each cell was rated at 2.0 volts for 250 vdc per battery and connected through switch for normal operation of 250 volts but could beconnected in series for short bursts of high speed maneuvering (1/2 hour). We charged the batteries when new to over 13.0 volts per cell, verified by continuous electrolyte readings during charging. Typically the batteries were discharged into the high 10.0 volt per cell reading before charging. After several years and a number of monitored cylcles and deep equalizing charges the batteries arrive at a condition where the would no longer reach a high enough charge and sometimes a cell would reverse charge and would need to be disconnected and bypassed with a corresponding cell in the other battery. So lithium batteries might be better than a lead-acid battery, but you are not taking all factors into consideration. I have also worked with large lead-acid batteries used in large buildings to bridge power outages till emergency power gensets coul come on line. Similar results.

@ashforkdan

2 жыл бұрын

That would make a great solar battery.

@ElectricityTaster

2 жыл бұрын

The military is lowest bidder.

@Relic142

2 жыл бұрын

I'm unsure of the conclusion you are making with this story. Are you saying if those lead acid batteries on the sub were replaced with lithium they would not perform as well in certain applications or overall? Can you tell me one factor he needs to take into consideration in the video where lead-acid in general is better other than the one mention in the video. He did list a car starter battery as an ideal situation for lead-acid.

@privateparty4900

Жыл бұрын

2 volt cells charged to 13 volts? So you went from 250vdc nominal to 1600vdc? It seems like you would just get boiling/electrolysis if you tried to charge a lead acid cell to 10 or 13v...but I guess I haven't exactly tried.

@Factory400

Жыл бұрын

13v per cell? Whaaaaaaat?

I love how thorough you are. You guys are the best. I want to totally change the way I do RV'ing because of you.

Great video and thanks for making the time and effort. Though far more expensive, always suspected that lithium ion batteries were more cost efficient in the long run...thanks so much (though being a total layman on the subject (don't know the difference between ie, an amp and a watt anyhow) much of the technical jargon might as well have been spoken in Aramaic)

This kind of thoughtful, detailed information is so helpful, and presented so thoroughly. Awesome work, Tom! The incredible amount of work that you (and Cait!) put into creating, shooting, and editing a piece like this is obvious. How lucky the RV community is to have you as an asset. 👏

@MortonsontheMove

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks guys! This was a tremendous ammount of work and we appreciate you noticing. :)

@ARepublicIfYouCanKeepIt

3 жыл бұрын

@@MortonsontheMove The level of work necessary to create as thorough a piece as this is obvious. Echoing _RV Geeks'_ sentiment, _Mortons on the Move_ are a tremendous asset to the entire RV community.

@BEASTmodeontheRoad

3 жыл бұрын

@@MortonsontheMove senpai notices

@ijblessjourney

3 жыл бұрын

Agree truly helps for us who are currently looking at upgrading to lithium.

@ambersmith6517

3 жыл бұрын

so true this guy knows what he is doing so refreshing

Thk you for all your hard work on this Great video. Now how to really get a great battery setup. Thk you

Great information. A lot of us are more concerned with the actual amp hour performance because we run equipment that draws a specific amount of amps. Knowing that capacity helps us decide the appropriate battery.

@matthewwiemken7293

Жыл бұрын

LFP gives a lot when pulled hard. lead acid drops a lot when pulled hard.

@menglei6301

Жыл бұрын

@@matthewwiemken7293 Yes, I think so too, after all this is a video from two years ago, now the LFP batteries are twice as powerful as lead acid batteries at the same weight and last longer, I bought ADCBATT 12v 100ah lifepo4 batteries on Amazon for my RV and towing machine, much better than the old lead acid, maybe this is technology changing life.

Nice work, but this felt like a SME corporate/commercial advertisement for Battle Born! I’d have loved to see the cost per power ($/Whr) of building your own LFP bank with EVE cells and BMS compared to commercially available ones like Battle Born. I’ve seen cost come down to as low as 0.1$/Whr. Battle Born is overpriced and overhyped, IMHO, at 0.67$/Whr. For those of us DIY types with some engineering background, it’s an insult to underhandedly suggest or highlight a brand-name on such limited data set. No one needs convincing that LFP is superior to AGM in almost every metric, but bringing down the cost-per-power by sourcing quality cells and components is where the rubber meets the road! Please do an episode on the best available power system components, ie, LFP cells, BMS, inverters, PVCs, charge controllers and monitors, etc. It would be of immensely more value to DIY enthusiasts than mindless brand-name consumers!

I kind of knew what the expected outcome was going to be but I must admit it was very interesting to see the data in detail. Great Job! Thank you.

Very comprehensive test and confirms my real world experience over the last 2 years I’ve owned my Battle Borne batteries. Thank you!

Outstanding. Excellent presentation of the data here. I was already sold on BB. We are going fulltime RV in our Airstream next year and I’m doing the research for the buildout this winter. Our flooded cell 12v batteries have served us well the last four seasons and worked well for weekend warriors. For FullTime use though, we need Lithium.

I've owned RVs (and lived on a sailboat!) off and on for almost two decades, and I've always ended up shrugging my shoulders and hoping for the best when it came to house power. Now that we have a newer fifth wheel, I'm trying to decide what direction to take house power and charging. The typical forums are filled with opinions and tribal knowledge, but little data. Your testing methodology and explanations were tremendously helpful, and provided useful real-world comparisons. I'm mechanically inclined, but certainly no electrical engineer, and I still came away with a much more thorough understanding of the state of the art (or science) in power storage today!

@MortonsontheMove

2 жыл бұрын

Thank you! Glad you found the video helpful. :)

Thanks for sharing all the results of your experimentation. MOTM is awesome!

Tom, amazing as always. Love the detail and this confirms that our purchase of the 4 Battle Born batteries. The title of this video gave me pause as we just installed these last week so I had to watch this. MOTM is the best. 🤗

@fishing4happiness610

3 жыл бұрын

Lol... Same, I was like you guys are the ones that convinced me to buy BB batteries 2 years ago. Good to know it was $4k well spent.

Two group 27 Costco battery’s on my Sailboat maintained by a Bluesea ACR powered by a Genasun with 40 watts were perfectly happy running the boat at 7 years without issue even in Winter

Fantastic research and presentation. Thankyou for taking the time. I have taken a look at your other uploads and will start working my way through them and have subscribed. My hobby is sailing so there is some cross over info for me in your work. Good luck with your channel.

@MortonsontheMove

Жыл бұрын

Thank you! :)

Watched your video and during the whole time watching I was thinking full time RV person as opposed to the part time RV person. I am a part time RV person and the cost of lithium would be way too much. If I was planning on full time boondocking and RVing, I would have no problem investing in lithium. A real world scenario would include use over time.

@krissfemmpaws1029

3 жыл бұрын

I enjoyed this report and found it interesting, with that said I can't justify the expense of switching from my 6 volt golf cart batteries I have now.

@kcajmortsnnew1488

3 жыл бұрын

EXACTLY...i got excited a couple yrs. ago , but thinking further , just couldn't justify $2K to run my fridge.....bought 2 6 v. golf cart batts.; but wish i could afford these...and there is the exploding batt facet

@IDVDalot

3 жыл бұрын

Great thinking Bob!

@mckenziekeith7434

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah. The 6V golf batteries will last a part timer 3 or 5 years (if you take care of them). The Battleborn batteries will cost 6 or 7 times more and last for 10 or more years. The cheaper batteries will still be cheaper over any reasonable time span.

@johnpianezze6519

3 жыл бұрын

I disagree. This analysis shows that Lithium is more cost-effective over the lifespan of the battery, and this has nothing to do with how often it gets used. Although $900 for the Battle Born is a lot to pay up front, it will last 10 to 30 years, vs. 2-3 years for a pair of 6V golf cart batteries (assuming you wouldn't buy AGM because they are very expensive for what you get). Hence the lithium dilemma: are you willing to pull the trigger on the high upfront cost to get a lifetime of benefits?

First of all, GREAT video and very extensive testing. I've been on the fence about changing out my current OEM flooded battery for Battle Born for a couple of years now. The one point that wasn't pointed out in the video about cost is that its not just the cost of swapping out the flooded battery for a lithium battery, but the significant additional required cost to replace the OEM inverter/charger with one that supports lithium, and for many people, the labor cost of engineering the lithium battery/charger/inverter solution to replace the OEM system, not to mention, for many of us, the cost to upgrade the alternator in our trucks to handle charging of the lithium cells while we're on the road. So, while there is no denying that using lithium cells are much better performance, for many it comes down to a cost vs benefit especially when factoring in the additional mandatory costs necessary to move to lithium. Thanks again for your very extensive report. You guys continue to put out very informative videos. Hope to see you both on the road. Keep it up!

@TravelWithTheHs

3 жыл бұрын

Right on point. This is why I came to the comments to make this exact point. This is the only thing keeping me from doing the switch.

@tarefoot

3 жыл бұрын

I would really like to see his reply to this. This has been a question in my mind as if my existing converter would charge a lithium battery. I'd like to know just what you would have to do. Thanks for your comment.

@Rumline7

3 жыл бұрын

@@tarefoot Look up the make and model (maybe serial number too since sometimes mfg's change things mid cycle) and call the manufacturer. Ask them if that charger supports a LiFePO4 charge profile. If yours was made in the past 3-4 years it could well be compatible already. Prior to that probably not unless you have a high-end model. Even if it's not compatible currently I've heard that some models can be upgraded to support lithium fairly easily and at low/no cost either through new firmware or a circuit board replacement.

@tarefoot

3 жыл бұрын

@@Rumline7 Thanks Michael......

@catmonkey4351

3 жыл бұрын

Damn, even my van alternator could possibly need to be changed? Would my Ford Dealer know this info? I'm considering a LiPo system...

This is a super valuable video! Thanks for your time to make this much more visible!

Nice work - thanks for the info! I'm curious, did you break in the lead acid batteries before beginning testing? As I'm sure you're aware, a number of common lead acid brands don't start generating their full power until a number of discharge/charge cycles. I have a bank of 6 crown 6v batteries, and I've definitely seen the limitations of voltage sag under heavy load (130 amps microwave... can only run a couple minutes before inverter cutout). ...liking the looks of the battleborn heated batts!

@eliinthewolverinestate6729

2 жыл бұрын

Get a super capacitor bank with batteries and you can run what ever. Having the super capacitor cycle means batteries last longer and don't draw down as much.

I was at 50% way through this video at room temp and I'm nun the wiser ! My brain shut down from low volts.

@fredread9216

2 жыл бұрын

Ha ha ha hah

@genesnyder2985

2 жыл бұрын

Or watts or amps??

@ralphandrews7721

2 жыл бұрын

Way too wonky to be useful to the average consumer

Great content here! Thanks for making it happen. At 9:06 You have a card up that says a Coulomb is the rate of flow of Protons? I thought it was the electrons that were measured for electrical current? I realize it's the same volume of charge per unit, so maybe that isn't a typo.

@TheRealMonnie

2 жыл бұрын

A coulomb is the unit for the amount of charge. That charge can be static (not moving), or it could by dynamic (moving). If it's moving, the flow of the charge of 1 coulomb in a 1 second period of time is 1 amp (electrical current).

I've been living off the grid for over 30yrs, I use lead acid golf cart batteries and can get 5yrs of use out of them. They work, and cost less than these newer ones.

@davidchad77

Жыл бұрын

You can get at least 10 years of those lead acid batteries if you overcharge them once ever 6 weeks like explained in Solar Secrets on emediapress by Peter Lindemann

@Ghredle

7 ай бұрын

Agree with your real life experience

Wow,...truly informative video,...answered a lot of my questions...thank you for testing so thoroughly!

Wow! Thanks for taking the time to do all the research!

Nice work. 25 years ago during my apprenticeship, I worked at Sears Auto Center. The cheaper car battery was better because there was more room between the lead cells. The more expensive batteries got hotter, the lead expanded and shorted out; this killing the battery.

@Deontjie

3 жыл бұрын

I think that was a build in design, to sell more batteries.

@bingosunnoon9341

2 жыл бұрын

The heavier batteries do indeed short out with greater frequency, they have less acid too.

@wtcamer

2 жыл бұрын

@@Deontjie No that is science.

@hyperlogos

2 жыл бұрын

@@wtcamer The plural of anecdote is not data, and this is only even one anecdote

One thing to consider. IF you have to install your batteries inside, standard lead acids are out unless you vent. And at this point in time LiFePO batteries are close to the same price as AGMs for the same effective capacity. I just swapped out my exhausted 6V 4x225 AH AGM bank for 12V 2x100AH SOK LiFePOs in my older B+ van. Effective capacity is about the same. I had to change out the General Dynamics converter - that was $300. I also added a DC to DC charger to allow alternator charging - $170. Existing solar charger still worked. The LiFePO batteries cost 2x$570 = $1140. An AGM battery replacement cost for the same VmaxTanks AGMs is 4x$330 = $1320. My cost for LiFePO upgrade was (300+170+1140=1610 no labor cost, I did that myself) vs AGM replacement of 1320 or about $300 more.

@pensrud

Жыл бұрын

great comment :D

@NotPerfectButDone

Жыл бұрын

Thanks 👌

@CoralSea

3 ай бұрын

Is LiFePO the same as LFP? Are they supposed to be very safe?

Thanks for these comprehensive Infos! I did experience similar outcome even with starter batteries on my motorcycle, where weight is a critical factor on top of all. A84 Wh LI battery provides 10 times more starting procedures than the stock AGM 168 Wh one, weighs about 1/4th or less and serves now for the 5th year, while AGM never even made a second season.

@eliinthewolverinestate6729

2 жыл бұрын

I agree on agm motorcycle battery. Like my lithium tool batteries it only makes it a year. I have kick starter and super capacitor now for my enduro. It should last 20 years.

@Tron-Jockey

2 жыл бұрын

Be careful. Most of these Li-ion batteries for automotive applications are LiFePo4 chemistry which cannot be charged at temperatures below freezing without severely damaging them. I've seen where some of them will incorporate heating elements within the case but not all manufacturers do this. They should also have an internal BMS that protects against charging if too hot or too cold. Cheaper batteries may not have this protection. For an automotive application you may want to consider the relatively new Lithium Titanate (LTO) chemistry. They are a bit pricey and not as energy dense but they're virtually indestructible. They can be fully cycled thousands more times than LiFePo4 and have a much broader temperature range (-40 to 165F). They can also endure extremely high discharge rates without being damaged. They can take incredible abuse without damage. They're starting to show up on eBay, sold by companies like XS-Power. Google it...... Good Luck

@liam3284

11 ай бұрын

I am a big fan of the LTO chemistry, but it seems to be hard to source them.

@able880

7 ай бұрын

​@@Tron-Jockeythats a good point you make about temperature - when tempeture is not a problem lithium is a good choice - also in boats, campers and aircraft weight.matters so often lithium is a better choice

Thank you for this extensive all enlightening series of useful tests! Just one quick question I would like to ask, because I just bought two (2) 12 volt flooded lead acid batteries for each of our two cars. I knew to put them on my "bench" automatic battery charger and they did read somewhat low and had to remain charging for almost a whole day before they were fully charged up & ready to install! Did those type batteries in your tests get fully charged up before proceeding? I'm sure you know & did this but I wanted to be clear it wasn't a design oversight since there was so much going on to set up and run your tests. Cheers.

I investigated "house battery power" for our Class C motorhome within a month of purchase. It had a single 12 volt marine battery from the dealer - and most people who've bought an RV KNOW how those batteries are treated! I knew I wanted solar, so 200 watts went on the roof. Next, I replaced the stock 20Amp PWM charge controller with a more robust 40 Amp MPPT controller. Then came the storage device. All I needed was a reliable source of 12 volt power to operate the motorhome slide, run the furnace fan, led lights and minimal power for the propane fridge (when not on shore power). If we need the AC, a hair dryer or coffee maker (high amp draw devices), we either run our on-board 4k generator or plug into shore power. So... 100 useable amp hours kept reliably charged would be perfect. My choice came down to two options: LiFePO4 12 volt (no maintenance) or flooded GC2 6 volt golf cart batteries (minimal maintenance). Two 6 volt batteries? $180, lifespan 4 years = $45 per year. One lithium? $900, lifespan 10 years = $90 per year. For me, the real world math tells the story. The cost/benefit ratio just isn't there yet for lithium.

@davidgirolametto393

2 жыл бұрын

Believe that the cost of the 6v batteries will be twice what you quoted, thus equalling the annual cost of the lithium batteries. Factor in that the lithium batteries have considerably more usable power and your way ahead with the lithium.

@jeoinaforest

2 жыл бұрын

@@davidgirolametto393 Agreed. Plus, the dreaded "oh no...we are fully discharged" is real and is not a big deal with lithium...but I've found that even after a SINGLE "fully discharged" event my FLA deep cycles no longer work as well as they did. I will absolutely be replacing with Lithium next time.

@stevelamperta865

2 жыл бұрын

I've run lead acid and now lithium and there's absolutely no comparison ! I will never run anything but lithium from now on . Its half the cost when you figure everything correctly . And no maintenence !

@nortonnewmann3711

2 жыл бұрын

@@stevelamperta865 Some buy a Prevost; some buy a Thor coach... to each their own. In the end it's about usable amp hours. What you decide to pay for those amp hours is up to you.

@nortonnewmann3711

2 жыл бұрын

@@davidgirolametto393 $97 each at Sam's Club. 2x = less than $200. 215 amp hours ÷ 2 (1/2 usable) = 107 available amp hours. Now... how much does 107 amp hours cost going the lithium route?

AGM is great for punchy engine start current. The glass mats hold the active compounds into the battery plates. For slower discharge rates there is not much point in AGM. The glass matting gets in the way of charging and traps bubbles which block even more access to the plates.

New subbie. I was able to use vMAX AGM battery for 4 years but by the end of the 3rd year the battery held very little charge and it was no longer a good experience. This is a great and informative video. Thank you 💓

Love this! I'm in process of doing research on building our own battery bank for solar for our self built skoolie. Cannot make up my mind for battery choices.

@MortonsontheMove

3 жыл бұрын

Awesome! We've also written several articles about solar systems on our blog, which may be helpful to you as well. You can find all of those articles here: mortonsonthemove.com/category/rvsolar/

If you have a permanent camp, bury the lead acid batteries 2 feet under the frostline and use conduit for the wires.

@DragonsREpic

2 жыл бұрын

Thats stupid. Thats like burying a car to prevent it get rusted but you cant add gas anymore

Great video and informative information. Especially the part that how cost affective the Flooded 6V Lead Acid Batteries are. I know that the LiFeP04’s are the latest and the greatest and that is what the video is pushing; however, your information about the cheep flooded 6V lead acid batteries says it all. They are very cost effective for what they are. Most RV’s are not pulling down 80amps on their batteries and the lead acid batteries handle the 8amp range very well.

@davidparker7156

2 жыл бұрын

they are not cost effective over the life of a battery when compared to lithium. Especially if you build your own

@iamdeji

2 жыл бұрын

Exactly my point. 8amp on 100Ah battery is not efficient. It is more than the 20 hour rating. He needs a minimum 160Ah lead acid battery bank for 8amps to be efficient. 1600Ah for 80amps. His lead acid battery bank is too small. I agree with using Lithium ion for high discharge but this video is not a fair comparison.

@andrehunter1295

2 ай бұрын

What do you think he earn his money from ? Giving away Lithium battery 😂

This is the most compelling and complete review I’ve seen to date. I was wondering if you have you looked into lead crystal (SIO2) batteries vs. Lithium?

@johnfitbyfaithnet

Жыл бұрын

Also curious

Tom, Thanks for your time and effort to educate us to an in-depth level. We enjoy your channel and look forward to switching to Lithium

Everyone always goes with the worst lead acid batts for these tests. I guess it makes sense for RV applications to keep weights realistic. I would love to see in depth tests done against trojan's specifically designed SIND 06 610 batts that have a pretty well proven track record/service life when maintained. I feel like any flooded cell rated for PSOC (like the SIND 06 610 batts) still gives lithium a run for its money in every way outside of weight and with proven service life well outside of these notions of '500 cycles' or '5yrs' that keep going around.

Excellent series of tests and review- all your tests confirm that the data from all my my experiments over the last 8 years are indeed accurate. Next up- perhaps you should talk about the difference between manufactures ratings of solar panel output and what you will see from a year old system in real life! This would be another huge eye opener for so many people!

@MortonsontheMove

2 жыл бұрын

Thank you!

Tom, all great information... for the seven battery engineers watching. For the rest of us, all we need to know is; what do we need, battery wise, to run our furnace overnight, in 20 degree temperatures. I recently had to run my generator overnight to keep the batteries charged up, as the furnace was too much drain for an overnight period. There are, of course, other small amp draws (refrigerator controller, thermostat, built in radio, etc.) that add to that drain, but for the most part, what do we need to be able to run the furnace overnight? Thanx for all your work and willingness to share what you learned

@MortonsontheMove

3 жыл бұрын

Good question, one charged 100AH lithium will do it. Considering the furnace draws 300W that would be 4 hours continuous run, assuming a 20-30 percent duty cycle your looking at 12-14 hours usable runtime. If its a 50% duty it will just get you through. always depends on your loads. I will write a blog post on this topic!

@andrewzenn1719

3 жыл бұрын

Tom, ironically people can understand miles per gallon, and yet amp hours or watt hours confound them. See it all the time. Would be nice to.see you draw analogies. Describe in painfully basic terms the difference between and amp and a watt. And then throw in what a watt hour is. Most rvers do not understand the difference between an amp and a volt and a watt. Electrozoom did.some nice things but he wouldn't appeal to rvers. You glanced over it and then you hand waved like a good EE. I explain this all the time but you are.getting paid. Good luck.

@conniechapin9278

3 жыл бұрын

Andrew Zenn, the problem is that there are 3 ways to measure electricity. Amps, watts and volts. And then there is AC and DC. That gets converted back and forth in an RV. MPG is easy to understand for us in USA, but if we where talking to someone in another country that did LPK (liters per kilometers) we'd be a bit confused.

@stout_tossme7541

3 жыл бұрын

Ted, exactly. Great comment. I watched this video and learned a thing or two. To the MPG comment. I am not an RVer. I am in the backcountry camping and exploring. Can't take an RV where I go. I worked as a mechanic for several years and am very mechanically inclined. When it comes to electricity, I have youtube and Tom to explain it to me. 🤷🏼‍♂️ I am not at all interested in electrical engineering. Lol

@bitworkx6028

3 жыл бұрын

@@MortonsontheMove Adding to the furnace post: I would imagine , the lithium will recover faster than the AGM. So as the nights go on using the furnace, at some point, a generator will be needed to get the AGM back near 100% where as the Lithium batteries might last much longer before they need a generator or not at all (assuming no cloudy days).

Tom, this was unparalleled. The industry has long needed this depth of analysis. Thank you.

@digger105337

3 жыл бұрын

"Unparalleled "? Perhaps he should make it a " Series" 🤣 battery humor.....

@scottleggejr

3 жыл бұрын

@@digger105337 I play a couple other youtube channels at the same time in the background and have 3 phase lithium information. I don't know wye I do this 🤷‍♂️

@randallsemrau7845

3 жыл бұрын

He makes a lot of cost claims which depend entirely on the number of cycles someone will get out of the advanced chemistry batteries, but they never did test the cycle capability of them. They just depend on the manufacturers claims regarding that figure, while at the same time ragging on lead acid battery builders for falling short on their claims. I'm not sure how assuming cycle life qualifies this exercise as 'in-depth analysis'. And please don't just tell us what these batteries 'typically see' regarding cycle life. They are supposedly 'doing science' here and coming up with life cost figures which are heavily influenced by how many times these babies are gonna take and give up, a decent charge.

@Tinkerdog7

3 жыл бұрын

@@randallsemrau7845 totally agree, and he had to come up with a 80a (almost 1kw) load to try and say the lithium battery was better than the flooded battery which is totally unrealistic. No one runs a 1kw constant load off a single battery except for cranking and if you are cranking for an hour and your vehicle doesn’t start then it’s not your battery! Oh and I know of a lot of lithium batteries fitted to range rovers that failed after a few years, never heard of a lead acid battery having to be replaced before 10 years so the cycles should be tested!

@missingegg

3 жыл бұрын

@@Tinkerdog7 You missed a key point in the video: they're testing banks of batteries, so when he talks about drawing 80 amps, that's 20 amps per battery, which is an entirely realistic load. While I agree it would be great to see independent testing of battery cycles, that would require thousands of hours of testing. For example, drawing 2 amps off a lead acid battery for 20 hours, and then repeating 100 times is 4000 hours. He did show a chart that Battle Born produced from when they were testing their battery's cycle life, and that number of cycles would take well more than a year to test. Considering he was just visiting Reno for a handful of days, criticizing him for not testing cycle life is unrealistic. It's reasonable to take cycle life with a grain (or perhaps large rock) of salt, but the data he produced is still immensely valuable.

In mechanic school we were taught that a lead acid battery is empty at 10.5V, this is the lowest voltage you should use them at, at 10-20 degree C. If you have a high current short duration draw you may be better of running it on a start battery rather than a "house" battery as they are made for high intensity short draw (and fast recharge after use) like a starter motor.

I'd like to see facts on charging times/costs for boating/RV applications as there are a lot more costs of other equipment, not just the batteries. More of a holistic approach. Yes you can discharge a lot, but how are you going to put it back, typical alternators on the engine won't do it, or running a genset for many hours. Also safety is the single biggest factor in my choice as I can't afford a uncontrollable fire on board a boat in the middle of the ocean. I do appreciate the data on the cost efficiency of just the battery

Thanks for making this so easy to follow and relatable to real-life applications. If you can afford the initial price, the heated lithium batteries are by far the most capable and cost efficient over time for RV’s.

@MortonsontheMove

3 жыл бұрын

You're welcome!

Great info! Wish I could go lithium but for the price of one battery I got a goal zero 400 a spare 35ah to chain to it and a 54l fridge and 150w solar panel and still had money to spare. It all works for me I run the fridge as just fridge but can do fridge freezer, charge phone, cameras, drone, RC and radios and it still cranking after 3 years. Run it in cold and hot weather and I'm out almost weekly using it

@the_kingd0m

Жыл бұрын

Goal zero 400 is lithium based...

Excellent information for a newbie considering the full time camper lifestyle

Thank you for this!! Just what I needed!

Oh my, I was looking for the “translation” link to click on. I heard a little English throughout this language but I couldn’t grasp the language. If I knew the slightest of what you were talking about, I think I would have gotten a bit excited 😊 😊 I didn’t understand a word but I know you did an awesome job.

@nfinitymarine4466

3 жыл бұрын

Long story short. Use lead for bullets and fishing weights. Use lithium for home and RV.

@a.w.thompson4001

3 жыл бұрын

"Lifepo4" batteries provide a great combination of longevity (cheaper in the long run) and safety (e.g. fire danger.)

very interesting video thanks. with RVs, boats etc batteries are always kept at full charge (float) via solar or mains all the time. how does this affect lithium vs pb? knowing Lipo its bad to keep them full all the time but at 50% long term is the same case? as that would make a considerable difference if you had to get up and go with only 50% in the tank

Awesome. Leaving in the tropics in a place with frequent, short, power blackouts, so planning to install solar PV and batteries both for backup + save on electricity bill. Your study helped me clear my thoughts. So cheapest flooded if ok to give up on high load and low budget ELSE better to directly go LiPeFo if budget 😀

We seem to know this already in Australia as 4x4 enthusiasts and manufacturers have extensively covered this problem ad nausea. The drawback with Li's is it won't start your 4x4. Besides the idea isn't to have a stand alone battery to run flat, that's nuts, but to keep it topped up either as dual battery system in your vehicle, and if you can, taking advantage of portable solar by using a proper dcdc charger with a built in battery isolator, mppt and ETFO charging. You should even be using the mains at home or a generator to keep your battery healthy when it's on standby. So, in this scenario I just mentioned when properly rigged AGM's are fine to get you going and if done well some people never change. The idea of having a battery to discharge without topping it up or having a backup is a bogus application in a real world scenario, except if its for a small cheap throw away toy.

@dirkjefferson6202

Жыл бұрын

i have definitely borrowed my solar agm to start my car a time or two lol.

Plus the Lithium iron phosphate batteries are 1/3 the weight of lead acid, important for RV’s.

@dansmith6990

3 жыл бұрын

at 2/3rd's the weight, with 300lbs of lead acid batteries, you'd be saving 100lbs... that's nothing in an RV... don't be daft.

@overbuiltautomotive1299

3 жыл бұрын

@@dansmith6990 so true so true

@Milesco

3 жыл бұрын

​@@dansmith6990 : Not quite as "daft" as you think -- the difference can add up. First, Lithium-ion batteries are actually about _half_ the weight of lead-acid batteries. Second, the larger your battery bank, the bigger the weight savings. If you have, say, six 60-pound lead acid batteries, that's 360 lbs. If you replace them with six 30-lb. Li-ion batts (180 lbs total), that's a 180 pound weight savings. Not huge, but not inconsequential, either, especially in a smaller RV. Furthermore, for a more apples-to-apples comparison, you have to take into account the fact that you can only discharge a lead-acid battery to 50%, while you can take a Li-ion battery all the way down to zero. So you really only need one lithium-ion battery for every two lead acid batteries. So then you can have just three Li-ion batteries to replace your six lead-acid batteries for an additional 90-lb weight saving, for a total weight saving of 270 lbs. That's significant.

@whatyoumakeofit6635

3 жыл бұрын

Temperature control is also a very important thing to consider for rv batteries.

@overbuiltautomotive1299

3 жыл бұрын

@@whatyoumakeofit6635 yep cold batteries lead acid ant the best. their need to cheaper materials used lithium is way to pricey for what it does really

I think I've figured out where the budget 6v flooded lead-acid batteries came from. The little round date sticker was the give away : I buy mine at my local Membership Warehouse, where their awesome warranty policies make their batteries an even better deal.

Thank you for this very informative video.

I recently took my Tesla camping. Tesla has a setting called “Camp Mode”. This setting allows the air to be circulated, filtered, conditioned and at a temperature of your choice. We set it at 70 degrees. All night we were so comfortable and in the morning there was not one drop of condensation on the windows. This was such a great experience and I couldn’t help but wonder if any rv had this feature, evidently not.

@tracym427

2 жыл бұрын

Meaning you slept inside the Tesla all night? Very interested in this.

@shepherdsknoll

2 жыл бұрын

@@tracym427 , in all Teslas the back seats fold down, all Models are surprisingly comfortable. You can even buy aftermarket memory foam that is shaped to conform to the space.

@tracym427

2 жыл бұрын

@@shepherdsknoll tell me this.. with a Tesla, can you going into a store for say 30 min and set your ac to stay on so when you get back in it’s nice and cold? I know that’s ridiculous to most, but I live in Texas and it super hot in the summers. I usually remote start my truck when I’m walking away from it so it will run for 10 min w/ac on.

@mr.carter4061

2 жыл бұрын

Pet mode?

@jonathanmelhuish4530

2 жыл бұрын

@@tracym427 Yes, you can even set it from your phone using the Tesla app.

Just a thought were you measuring the battery voltage at the inverter during hi discharge or actually at the battery. Those battery leads were very very long . I've installed several inverter systems and battery leads of less than 1 meter improve the system dramatically and also as thick as will fit into the inverter.

This is a very very good testing system. One point to note though is that you are not ever supposed to measure lead acid battery voltage levels while under load/charge to get any significantly decent reading. I would love to do that "discharge to death" test again for the AGMs, but give them a break. Say every 25 minutes, let them rest for 5 mins to rebound, measure voltage, then repeat. Otherwise the comment saying that an AGM 50 percent level is 12.0 volts is quite literally useless, as with the 8 amp load connected and with battery and cable internal resistance along with peukorts law throwing its annoyances in the voltage under load is just a bare indicate that the battery is still alive, not "oh we have passed the 50.00 percent mark." Other then that though there is some very important info here, especially with the difference between cheap and expensive AGMs. The floodeds also had a suprising uptick, but they are annoying to store and use in a sealed or semi-sealed environment. Very good data though, but with the voltage measurements under load being all suspect some retesting will have to be done. I bet that if you hit the "half capacity ah consumption" point at around 12.0 volts, and allowed the battery to rest, it would bounce back to around 12.2 volts as per the manufacturers spec sheet. Would LOVE to see scientific testing of that.

@JeremyAkersInAustin

3 жыл бұрын

This wasn't supposed to be "scientific". This test mimicked real world use of these batteries. People aren't buying these to bench test them. No-one in a boat or RV is going to be able to configure their inverter to turn off all loads to test the voltage, and then turn them back on (or not) depending on if the voltage rebounds. What they did in this video is a more "real world" test because this is how inverters are typically programmed in a boat or RV. They don't have the luxury of turning off all loads for an hour, waiting for the voltage to rebound and then turning the RV appliances back on again, etc. Notice that the Lithium batteries were tested in exactly the same way and didn't need this sort of pampering with turning the loads off to check the voltages. And that's the point: In a RV/boat application the Lithium's give you much more *usable* energy for the money.

@jamesop22

3 жыл бұрын

Sounds like some vw testing lol

@mitchpender8113

2 жыл бұрын

@@JeremyAkersInAustin unfortunately the test was designed to show lithium batteries where they are at their optimum , constant discharge …lead acid batteries bounce back after discharging , in fact a constant discharge is very uncommon in a RV / boat typically batteries cycle between discharge/ charge / idle .. That is a real world test , this is a sponsored video with the test optimised for lithium ion , that being said for inverter use or high discharge requirements lithium is superior, lead acid batteries preform far better that this test showed.. btw 12.2v is 60% .. 12.05 is 50% Again a marketing ploy to make lithium look more cost effective than they are

@scotforshaw

2 жыл бұрын

Kind of agree, but also have empathy for the comments that say it was supposed to reflect real world conditions. I frequently am amazed how well my leisure battery bounces back after a short high load drain.

This video pretty much mirrors my experience living in Alaska. While I don't know which lithium battery chemistry I was using, I witnessed pretty much everything you discussed in this video. Kinda neat

THANKS BUDDY THAT WAS HELPFULL

I see a possible flaw in your testing method. It appears that you were testing the end voltage under load. The 50% 12.2v is at rest, not under load. If you drew the batteries down to 12.2 under load, and then cut off, the voltage pops back up, and you did not hit your 50% level. Retest with a hydrometer (battery voltage is not an accurate method of determining the state of charge).

@andymead3619

3 жыл бұрын

Yes, and / or set compensation parameters for this in the inverter configuration.

@tomhargreaves8820

3 жыл бұрын

This was a lot of work. However, I didn't hear anything about how you measured the "end" voltages. I infer from what I heard that you tested to a voltage under load because you kept referring to a "cutoff voltage". As Steve pointed out, and a I have learned by studying and living with rv batteries for 16 years, to get even an approximation of the state of charge (SoC) of a lead-acid battery with voltage, you have to let the battery recover after a period of discharge. In fact, to see the voltage of a fully charged battery, you have to let it sit unloaded for a period of time or apply a moderate load for a short period to knock the voltage down to its rest level. Every study I've read on lead-acid batteries emphasizes that voltage level is not an accurate method to determine SoC, only testing the specific gravity of the electrolyte is accurate. That's difficult with sealed la batteries.

@ThomasSuckow

3 жыл бұрын

I also question whether the lead acids were deep cycle batteries which would be what would be in an RV and should have a greater than 50% DOD.

@sspence65

3 жыл бұрын

@@ThomasSuckow 50% is the recommended DOD for lead acid deep cycle. Some recommend deeper DOD to get more usable ah, but cycle life decreases. 20% is the recommended DOD for starting batteries.

@PlanktoniusRex

3 жыл бұрын

Yep that is 100% right. My AGM's sag to 24.1 under load by morning but VOC rises to 24.4 when measured disconnected and direct.

Well done, Tom! Very informative and useful -- thank you. About the only item you didn't mention in any detail is the weight savings. Switching to lithium batteries provides a significant weight savings that goes directly to increasing useful load. Perhaps not a big issue in a Class A, but a very big issue is some Class C and smaller RVs.

@flyboy5736

2 жыл бұрын

Good point. He was analysing them as an electrical engineer not as an RV'er!

@bobblack3870

2 жыл бұрын

@@flyboy5736 Yea, but ... the title says "RV", and he did make several references to RV.

This is an advertisement... Not naming the competition is to prevent legal challenge from them... If this is a true test why not other brands?

Awesome video. Thank you, We have two 6 v golf cart AGM in our little T@B 400 and they are starting to show some voltage drop. We have a 12 V refrigerator, TV, Radio and some LED lighting along with a heating pump for glycol circulation. Do you think a one 12 V Lithium Battle Born would be sufficient or two wired in parallel ? ? I do believe the charging station would also be a question due to the AGM to Lithium change??? Thank you again for your thorough investigation, Mike

This is a battle born advert, doesnt even mention that if you DIY the same cells, they cost 1/5th. Thats the reason why Will Prowse has 6 times as many subs as this guy. he isnt a sellout

@Cameron-ur2tk

3 жыл бұрын

lol, will prowse has battle born batteries listed on his website..... Heres what he says. "Good battery, but pretty expensive. If you want something that works great for years (or decades), buy this battery. I have not heard of a dissatisfied battle born battery buyer. It just works. I would go with the SOK/Ampere time battery above unless I needed a sealed battery, for marine application. The battleborn has the best case and terminals around, and can handle high moisture environments. It is also ideal for high vibration systems, such as RV's and vans."

@cbflazaro

3 жыл бұрын

@@Cameron-ur2tk he doesnt say its "THE MOST COST EFFECTIVE" like him at 0:14

I did an experiment recently with the discarded starter battery from my ML320 Wi63 - a Bosch Silver SO19 100Ah. I hadn't gotten around to getting rid of it and idly checked how flat it was and found that it had held a charge after a few months of being dumped under my kitchen table, so I connected a 12V 40W thermoelectric cooler to it and it kept working for a full 30 hours before stopping, and had kept 3 frozen freezer blocks frozen. So, even a 'dead' starter battery delivered exactly 100Ah. As it is 'dead' anyway, I figured it wouldn't do it much harm. It charged up again just as quickly as it would normally, so my next experiment is to try charging it from solar and using it camping while I save up for a LiPO4 battery, which will cost a fair percentage of what my car cost! 'If the resource is free, efficiency is not so important'!

@davidelliott5843

2 жыл бұрын

A 100AH lead acid will deliver all of that energy but it will not for so at high current levels. You will also lose a considerable chunk of battery life. LFP will happily give 95% of its energy at near full current so what’s not to like?

@stephencopestake2864

2 жыл бұрын

@@davidelliott5843 It's only the cost of LiPO4 batteries plus all the stuff to go with it...

Thanks for your testing

Interesting and informative, thanks for sharing. I noted particulalry that the best cost over a life time of any battery was about 10 cents per kWh - in the context of storing energy from domestic PV solar systems, even this is a big cost when considering paypack compared to grid supply (or even whether is can actually really ever be achieved).

Great video, thanks! I would like to see data showing efficiency and economics from the charging perspective. I understand that lead-acid can't be charged at as high of rate as LI and that the charge rate for lead-acid dramatically decreases as it is is reaching ~80%. As a sailor, I'm particularly interested in this aspect of LI over lead-acid since that means shorter run time on my diesel engine/genset and less fuel to recharge. Or making the optimum use of solar. When you're a 100+ miles offshore, you can't just pop into a fuel dock whenever you want.

@karlsjostedt8415

2 жыл бұрын

Li ion batteries also charge slower the closer they get to fully charged. This is a function of physics as there are fewer and fewer locations for the ions to fit into as the battery fills up and so those ions have to bounce around, do a lot more traveling, before finding an empty spot to fit into. This creates more heat since the ions are moving more. The way to keep charging fast is to increase the flow, but that also raises the heat. Heat will shorten the lifetime of the battery or start a fire if the heat gets too high... Some EVs will pretend that 90% (-ish) is a fully charged car and can therefore use a faster charging curve towards the top... Different chemistries and different battery forms have effects on heat and therefor charging curve...

@TauCu

2 жыл бұрын

@@karlsjostedt8415 not nearly to the extent of lead acid lol. #leadIsDead

@douglaslin5469

Жыл бұрын

Hi Ausgator, i am an Australian sailor too working on my battery replacement. I made a spreadsheet comparing Lithium v AGM (included carbon lead acid AGMs). Ignoring solar, the first thing my spreadsheet did was show the first usage in hours using a constant 8 amps. 8 amps is how much power my boat uses with its auto pilot operating. Then how long it would take to re-charge. But I realised that full charge would not be too long for AGM. So I presumed that the AGM could achieve 90% charge at its rate of resistance, which varies between AGM batteries. My batteries are in parallel, and the resistance stays the same for each battery. So if the AGM bank has four batteries in parallel, and that batteries can accept 20 amps each, that means the bank of AGM batteries could take 80 amps charge. While the lithium can typically take 80 amps charge, it is not recommended. Typically 50 amps can be taken per battery. But this invites heat issues. Which are an unknown for me. But if two lithiums can take 50 amps each, that would be 100 amp charge acceptance. Via DC-DC chargers. I presumed the Lithium could get to 100%. The Lithiums provided a shorter engine run due to their ability to fast charge, but the difference was not very large due to the bottleneck falling back to the capability of the engines alternator. If I was cruising a lot, I think a hydro generator makes more sense than a large battery bank. But they cost double or three times the cost of 4 AGMs or two or three lithiums. Solar also is necessary to aid the power drain. The key seems to be the gen set - if it could feed a DC-DC charger for each lithium battery, and the batteries could take 50 amps each - lithium wins easily. But if the gen set has limitations, AGM and particularly Carbon lead AGM becomes cheaper. And no need for DC-DC chargers. The other downside of AGM though is weight and bulk. In my boat space for batteries (in one lazorette) takes up valuable space. Lithium kills lead acid in that regard, and installation of lighter batteries is so much more appealing with a something under 17 kg than 32 to 45 kg.

@calvingarrett3245

Жыл бұрын

This guy just trying to sell batteries for a company you all know most adds are falsely advertised

I wish you could do the same experiment with SiO2 (Lead Crystal / Silicon Dioxide Batteries). Their specs goes down to -40 C with significant capacity loss, but you can use them without damage at this temperature. I am wondering if heated li-ion wasting a portion of it's energy to heat is better than cold SiO2, let's say at -20 C. Nice experiment video, thanks!

@falcorthewonderdog2758

Жыл бұрын

Are you ever in an RV at -40 centigrade? Not really a valid comparison as most RVers are SNOW BIRDS

@horsreseauquebec

Жыл бұрын

@@falcorthewonderdog2758 This is the idea, you can just leave the system running without any changes. Lithium needs to be heated or disconnected in those conditions. I am in a cabin though.

@horsreseauquebec

Жыл бұрын

They just released LTO very performant batteries with 25k cycles. They support down to - 50 C!

Can't wait for my two 100 amp hour AGMs to wear out so I can replace my system. Its been 2 years. My solar panel has kept up my batteries. Might trade in my RV by the time they wear out. Next time we will start with the Battle Born system. I can't tell you how many times we had problems. Thanks for explaining exactly the real life problems we had with pour AGMs.

Thank you for all this vital information. I do have a Question for you. I live in the Caribbean with avg temp between 89f; what is your recommendation for the longest WH usage in a Off grid Camper?

_So, when it comes right down to it! The flooded; not the AGM's are better? And for the best bang for the buck is flooded batteries is best again. The only advantage that Battle Born has over the flooded is it's weight, yes? Of course, it is! When they get at least 370Ah in their batteries, to fit into an area that is only 20" x 40", then I might look into them; but, until now I'll keep my 4, 6v-370 Ah for my 24v system. The cost is small compare to the Battle Born. In the real world, flooded batteries are good, if not great! Because if people are using Flooded or AGM batteries in the tiny home or RVs and anything else. People are using a small amount of power and are always watching their power usages for the most part. Flooded does have one huge pain-in-the-butt thing. It's the monthly maintenance of them, but then, if you think it only 10 minutes worth of trouble to keep your system up and healthy, it still well worth it. Just saying!_

@TamponTea

3 жыл бұрын

Build your own 280ah lifpo4 from ali baba for under 500

@FirstSuiGeneris

3 жыл бұрын

What? What? I get no heart? Hahahahaha! Yeah there’s no basis here! : )

@nismo4x4n

3 жыл бұрын

@@FirstSuiGeneris you'll also get 10+ years or more out of lithium. Not to mention the much better charge rate so you can use less solar panels.

@Schmitz69

3 жыл бұрын

@@nismo4x4n Nobody knows that for sure because the battle bornes have not been around for 10 years yet.

@nismo4x4n

3 жыл бұрын

@@Schmitz69 The cell types they use have been though.

IF i'm not mistaken, you left out one very important aspect in these tests. I would like to see the actual performance ratios of these batteries. Wh in / Wh out. For all battery types, brands and temperatures you studied.

Kudos to the guys at the beggining, and gjob to you for using it on youtube! Great content

Very thorough information indeed.....however, as most RVers seem to go to campgrounds with hook ups, does any of it really matter? We boondock nearly 95% of the time (not in a parking lot) and am on flooded batteries. For the lithium cost difference, including the ancillary costs for the various charging equipment needs, I'll stick with flooded battery (standard or AGM) and use my generator as necessary.

I'm 67, started wrenching at age 7. One thing I've noticed with LA batteries is 3 strikes (full discharge) and you're out! Plan on amperage failure and a new battery very soon, worse in winter.

@MatthewBerginGarage

2 жыл бұрын

Not necessarily, I am 63 and I accidentally left the CB on in my truck full discharged and froze my Exide Group 65N AGM battery in the middle of winter at -30C. I carefully thawed and charged the poor battery and it thankfully recovered and has lasted another 4 years. It still starts my 92 F150 every time I go to use it. The battery is on it's third vehicle and nearly 8 years old. If I had done that to a flooded lead/acid battery or a lithium battery it would have been scrap.

Thanks Tom. This was very informative and interesting. As a retired Electrical Engineer who also did power systems design for our local Telco way back in my early days, I appreciated your thorough approach. I have been pondering upgrading our travel trailer’s power system, by moving to a Lithium Ion battery(s) but that also introduces an additional expense of a new charging system (and AC/DC distribution systems) which are more suitable for Lithium Ion batteries. I doubt our existing system is programmable without serious modification. I would be very interested in your recommendations on a Victron (or an other company) Charging upgrade that is programmable and would allow me to stay with my current lead acid battery for now and then move to a the lithium ion battery as a second step. Whether or not we invest in including an inverter option is something else we need to think about. Does Victron have a product that serves as a swap out to the current charging systems already out there? Any advice you can give me would be appreciated. Thanks.

@MatthewBerginGarage

2 жыл бұрын

Except for the lithium battery fires.😱

@bradatherton9369

2 жыл бұрын

@@MatthewBerginGarage Li battery fires are a valid concern! Of the chemistry variants, LiFePO4 (lithium iron phosphate) is the most robust against thermal runaway. So it looks like BB has made the best choice in terms of safety.

@tirivaenim

2 жыл бұрын

I would say also look at Deye/Sunsynk inverters. Victron is great but costly plus every extra component (mppt, venus gx colour controller, shunt etc) is just additional costs which is important but not life-crippling without it when using the Deye/Sunsynk.

Great information, I have been working in the auto repair business for over 30 have seen battery quality go down dramatically does not matter what brand, flavor or cost, tried them all, your are lucky to get half the life out of a new battery as one made before 2008. In the U.S. there are only couple auto battery manufacturers they blame everything on all the electronics in new cars. I point out my 99 car OE car battery lasted over seven years and my 97 truck OE battery lasted over 9 years yet a new battery same vehicles will not last 3 years they have nothing to say. When there is a Monopoly and yes all the manufacturers are working together they even make batteries for each other the cost can go up and the quality go down. So it's no surprise to me lead acid batteries tested so poorly.

I learned A lot thank you. I work In Entertainment as an Electrician a common use case for 12v-24v batteries is Set Pieces that have a practical effect (Such as DMX Controlled Lighting or Mechanical) in them that can't be wired to 120v power due to the fact they need to operate on stage and be stored off stage during scene changes. Typically we use Ni-H batteries due to cost and that we are never running them down, and often are charged each night after the show. However, when Touring shows that are storing electronics at Canadian Winter Temperatures they often don't get enough time inside the theatre to warm up to normal operating temperature. Your video was very insightful about using Lithium batteries.

@MortonsontheMove

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks for watching! :)

Very good review! The one thing I would propose is that lead-acid batteries would make sense for RV'ers who only occasionally go camping, and only run off batteries before hooking up to shore power, such as putting out the slide-out or using the toilet before you get the hook-ups done, or an occasional night in a Walmart parking lot on the way to a campground. For that application, I would argue that they make sense, as long as not expecting too much out of them (small lights, water pump). But it is good to know that isn't worth buying expensive ones for that!

@Schmitz69

3 жыл бұрын

Yep, 2 - 6 Volt golf cart batteries will do the job and easily last 5 years if you take care of them.

@RVstreet

2 жыл бұрын

@@Schmitz69 But will do a lot more than what Dells said above. Been FTing now for 5yrs. with our 2 - Trojan 105's ($325) and they have served us very well. But having a robust battery bay is only a part of the FTing story. We just replaced our Trojans with 2 new ones after 5 years. Lifepo4 batteries are for folks who have a lot of money to spend and do a lot of off grid living. Otherwise the ROI is not worth it. Besides that , I don't want all my eggs in one basket.

@headdown1

2 жыл бұрын

@@RVstreet Lithium iron phosphate are much cheaper in the long run than lead acid. They are actually for people who plan to use them a lot, and then they save money. I've been using my 3 - 303 amp hour Lifeblue lithium batteries for over 4 years, and have not lost a single percent of capacity yet. Do that with lead acid.

@RVstreet

2 жыл бұрын

@@headdown1 I hear what your saying, I truly do but they're not cheaper in the long run. Hear me out. At $325 for 2 Trojans that lasted five years, I could replace them 5 or 6x's for the cost of 2 lithiums. That's 25yrs. of battery life. Way longer than I'll ever own the RV. The Trojans I replaced still had plenty of life in them too, but I changed them out anyway as a PM item to start fresh again. But changing to lithium batt's is not the whole story. You usually also have to change the converter and the inverter too for them to work right as a complete charging and usable system. That's even more money. But what DJ86 said in the beginning I totally agree with. The ROI to go Lithium just isn't worth it unless you you do a lot of off grid living and need a ton of usable Ah's. We do some off grid living and we've done just fine with our Trojans for the past 5yrs. along with other power solutions I've installed like portable solar. But in all fairness, if Lithiums work better for you then that's fantastic. 👍

@headdown1

2 жыл бұрын

@@RVstreet I used lead acid my first 6 months on the road, then I switched to Lifeblues. I hated the lead acid batteries. I had to buy and carry twice the batteries and the weight as what I actually needed, since going below 50% SOC is a no - no. The weight is a huge deal in an RV. If I wasn't plugged in, in the morning my two lead acid batteries would badly need charging if I used the furnace. So down the road I would go, giving them a lousy trickle charge using the alternator. Unless it was a very long day, this would not give them a proper charge by the end of the day. Lead acid likes a few hours of charge after hitting 100% and I could almost never provide that without a lot of hassle. So every day, the batteries were abused and degraded, just due to the reality of travelling in an RV with them. I have no desire to switch out batteries every 5 years and few people actually get that long out of lead acid while RVing anyway. Not having to do that 5 or 6 times is worth something to me. As is being able to store them under my bed with no venting. No maintenance, and all I need to know about the internal workings of the battery bank is provided with an iPhone app. I do agree that to make it worthwhile, you have to be either full timing or rich. But if you ARE full timing, and especially if you use solar panels, there is absolutely no comparison. I can ram in all the power the sun or shore power or a generator can give the battery bank, unlike lead acid which takes forever to charge, and then needs hours of top up once charged to stay healthy. My 240 lbs of Lifeblues would become well over 500 lbs of lead acid. And perform much worse for its short lifespan. I know there are folks who lead acid still makes sense. After having Lifeblues for over 4 years, I feel sorry for them. :) They truly do not know what they are missing. After using lithium iron phosphate, using lead acid batteries seems like starting a fire by rubbing two sticks together instead of using a Bic lighter.

Well done. I switched to LiFePO4 in my sailboat, and have been stunned by the difference. I'll just throw out there, one thing nobody seems to mention that I think should be is the acid and hydrogen discharge of lead-acid batteries (at least the flooded kind) that is actually dangerous and the maintenance they require. Lithium is just better in almost every practical way.

@chexlemeneux8790

2 жыл бұрын

They are Extremely disappointing in the winter.

@anonanonymous1988

2 жыл бұрын

@@chexlemeneux8790 you can get a heating pad so they'll charge in the winter. The main issue with lead acid is they'll last 5 years compared to 20+ you get with Lithium

@esecallum

Жыл бұрын

No..lithium battery explode and fire and cannot be put out

@JeremyHolovacs

Жыл бұрын

@@esecallum not LiFePO4 chemistry.

Interesting video and I can see you've gone to a lot of trouble to do this testing. I'd be very interested to see the results with a high end AGM like the Concorde SunXtender. I suspect you'd find they would meet the manufacturers spec. Also if you are talking Li-ion rather than LFP, wouldnt you have some concerns about the thermal run away potential at just 60 deg c?

And there I was about to buy a set of AGM. Thanks for the detail.

The next test should include the actual discharge and charge cycle comparisons. Also, the balancing that is not used on lead acid leave it at a disadvantage. Remove the BMS from the lithium is a more direct comparison. The VPC is in some applications, can be down to 1.67. Batteries are all not very efficient ever. Lead acid or lithium etc.

@emilen2

3 жыл бұрын

What makes you say Li-ion or LFP are not very efficient? BMS is not an unfair advantage for Li-ion. You can balance cells at any level of charge, and it's basically only a safety measure should the cells drift apart.

@paulbianchi7877

3 жыл бұрын

The conversion of energy ratio is not great, Even more so when the temp is over 80f and below 40f. The rate of efficiency decreases exponentially as the temp changes. The charge cycles and discharge cycles also decreases. Question> Why should batteries require heat or cooling.?

@keaneboyd87

Жыл бұрын

I'd like to see them test a firefly

Wow. Your research & analyses are impressive🙌🏽🙌🏽 Thank you! 😊 You & Cait go h.a.m in everything you do👌🏽

@UltimateForceMarketing

2 жыл бұрын

Miss Mystical..i want YOU!! (@@)

I want to thank you for the tremendous work you put in here. I test a lot of batteries and it annoys me that most of them do not meet their specs. This has gotten *much* worse in recent years. I’m talking about you, “9000 mAh” 18650 cells from China.

@MortonsontheMove

2 жыл бұрын

Thank you!

@esecallum

Жыл бұрын

You can buy 100000 mAh batteries for 5 dillars

@NotPerfectButDone

Жыл бұрын

@@esecallum 😳😱🤣🤣🤣🤣

@carotan6075

Жыл бұрын

No one will claim 9000mAh if 18650 unless he knows you are a fool. You buy what you pay, I think you'd have basic acknowledge about the price of battery(LFP/NMC), if the price is not reasonable, then there's something unhappt happen.

@liam3284

11 ай бұрын

Lithium, go LiFePO4, dircet from a reputable manufacturer and, roll your own BMS, with dynamic balancing, separate charge and discharge cutoff contactors.

As this is comparing different chemistries and brands in absolutes the info is very interesting but there are the realities in weekend warrior RV activities. Full time RVer's have other needs. I would venture that most RVing is done at campgrounds and RV parks where "shore" power is available. In such cases the onboard batteries are used for no more than pushing out slides, lowering stabilizers and other moderate chores where little battery capacity is used before shore power is connected and batteries are once again brought back to peak charge. Using myself as a for instance, in the 24 years we've been RVing we're on our 3rd set of 2 - 6 volt flooded deep discharge batteries. Lithium batteries really weren't present back when we first started but their specs are great and look forward to them to continue to come down in price. Until then, for light duty use I think there's good practice left in using flooded or AGM batteries. Then too, I keep all such batteries on all our vehicles on float chargers when not in use and get exceptional life from them.

New to your channel. Great info re: lithium vs lead acid batteries! You really did the research, testing and analysis👍

@MortonsontheMove

3 жыл бұрын

Welcome and thank you for watching!

All of the cost savings for the Lithium batteries are entirely dependent on them actually reaching their "estimated number of cycles". Interesting video nevertheless. If you get an opportunity to test the new lithium titanate batteries in a similar fashion, it will be interesting to see how they stack up.

@MrSteewped

2 жыл бұрын

They stack up as very expensive. But LifePo4 seems to be the best bang for the buck.

@falcorthewonderdog2758

Жыл бұрын

There is no cost value with lithium batteries when they burn your RV to the gound.

@kieranh2005

Жыл бұрын

​@@falcorthewonderdog2758 the LiFePO4 is meant to be much safer in that regard. Although compared to Li-ion they don't have the energy density.

@matthewwiemken7293

Жыл бұрын

@@falcorthewonderdog2758 Bad install.

@SnookerML

Жыл бұрын

Watch starting at the 10:36 mark. He is not looking at lifetime cycles. This one data point was at 20A discharge per battery and measured the WattHours. The calculated $ / WattHours. That is the way I see it. The question is performance every time you use them, not over the lifetime of the battery. Doesn't mean it is worth it to you to buy it, but I think he made the point.

Hi thx great video but how do you recommend insulating the Heat Lithium Batteries to keep them warm thx

Great work and analysis my friend! Have you considered such comparisons of LiFePO4 batteries with salt water batteries? I am quiet curious about the total cost of ownership (TCO), as you have shown in the video. Specifically salt batteries does not provide high peak power, but maybe the tradeoff is still cheaper as TCO, for stationary energy storage.

I would have liked to see more Deep Cycle or Marine (which are a combined starter/deep cycle battery) lead acid batteries used in comparison than regular starting batteries. That is what the experiment test parameters were directed to......

@tomstdenis

3 жыл бұрын

AGM1 is clearly FullRiver DC115-12 batteries. Which are deep cycle. The problem is he discharged them at the wrong rate. The manufacturer tested their claims at 5.8A not 8A.

@karlsjostedt8415

2 жыл бұрын

@@tomstdenis Testing close to the use case makes sense for this test since the idea is: which battery is best for this particular use.

@marcuswetterlund2445

2 жыл бұрын

@@karlsjostedt8415 I agree that's what the "test" in the video was but he States multiple times that the batteries didn't meet manufacturers specifications for capacity which is a test that needs to be done at the rate the manufacturer discharged at.