I remember thinking about the possibility of inverted qualia when I was about 11/12 years old, imagining about people seeing other people thoughts. In the end I assumed it was true and irrelevant and went on with my life, never thinking that I had accidentally bumped into a real philosophical doubt

@ES-bi1hq

Жыл бұрын

Yeah. I was ten. I remember having read a book, ‘Spooky Kids’ and one of the children had grown up seeing the world in a different way… I believe the child saw auras or something and it allowed him/her to see cancer… the concept was interesting for me and I began wondering about the way people see the world. I was fascinated by the thought for a while but…

@camelCased

Жыл бұрын

When I was a kid, I liked to talk to adults and sometimes my mom got annoyed and said: "You are talking too much, you are too young to interrupt our conversations", and I replied: "Yeah, but I just want to say what I think", and she said: "Then don't think so much" and I replied: "But I cannot exist without thinking". However, René Descartes was earlier than me to come to this idea 😀

@enterthevoidIi

Жыл бұрын

Anything can be a philosophical doubt, all you need is curiosity.

@suhuyinimohammedaminimoro8346

Жыл бұрын

thought the same when I was younger too

@MTd2

Жыл бұрын

Sometimes keeping our child questions might lead to interesting scientific or philosophic quests. We should tell that to kids more often.

Everyone could have the same favorite color qualia-wise.

Regarding the warm / cool part of the talk, because this is a psychological experience, those that see red as green would still say that it was a warm colour, because to them, a fire would look green and feel warm. Also there would be some conditioning involved where people would be saying or teaching that their perceived 'green' was a warm colour. (Imagine an art teacher teaching which colours were warm and cool.) Also, purple is only a unique colour because of language and there is no way it can be regarded as a pure colour in colour science. There are 4 primary psychological colours, red, green, yellow and blue. All other colours are considered mixtures. And there are only 3 in additive light which are red, green and blue, which roughly correspond to the L, M, S cones in the retina, with all other colours being mixtures. So I think the purple, yellow/green argument is fallacious.

@DarkVeghetta

Жыл бұрын

If I'm not mistaken, there are languages that don't even have a unique name for purple and/or orange. English itself didn't have a unique name for orange until oranges started to be more widely imported into Europe around the Middle Ages.

@rekttt_7374

Жыл бұрын

Yeah.. Seriously. Until we can transfer consciousness to other body we'll never know. I'll never know how things look like from your perspective.

@starfishsystems

Жыл бұрын

Well, violet is essentially a synonym for purple, and it is part of the color spectrum at about 400nm wavelength. It doesn't get any more objectively real than that. However, I appreciate the other points you made. Our color perception derives from the response by receptors in the cones of our retina, and those have peak sensitivity at specific wavelengths due to properties of photochemical activation that happened to have been available to natural selection. They're not perfect linear instruments by any means, and yet they were good enough to favor the survival of our ancestors. Really it's quite impressive. Our sensitivity to dynamic range in the blue part of the spectrum is relatively low, for example, presumably because we encounter a lot of bright blue sky which rarely contains objects of interest to omnivores preoccupied with foraging and hunting. Like the "hard problem" of consciousness, we can't know what color vision is like for anyone but ourselves. (I don't really think it's a hard problem either, it's just conceptually ill posed.) But as you point out, we do know for ourselves what a given color is like. It literally bears a likeness with various objects in our experience. Whatever color we perceive for blood will be the same on one day as it is on the next. If we want to agree to call that "red" then people who are asked about the color of blood are bound to report that it's red. Only they know what their internal experience of it is, in essence, but because of our shared biochemistry we expect that most of our sensorium is structured similarly. The red of blood and roses and fire isn't spectrally identical either, but it's close enough to produce similar retinal photochemistry, and so we form associations between these perceived objects. The associations may be learned or instinctual, that's perhaps an unrelated matter. But I do want to report something interesting about that. The experience of color isn't as deeply hardwired as we might assume. I recall in university days riding my bike across town one summer night while moderately high on LSD. I perceived the lawns in particular as a shade of magenta, not green. Well, it was night, and so my vision would have been driven more by rods than cones, so we could say that the magenta color was synthetic rather than perceived, but even so it was "like" the remembered experience of seeing a genuinely magenta object. It would be interesting to know what was going on in the optic nerves at the time. At any rate, lawns were magenta, whereas the trees overhead were more or less grayscale. I could "push" myself to perceive them as magenta also, but the effect was vague and transient, whereas the color of the lawns persisted for a couple of hours without effort. I didn't recognize anything during the ride that would have been a true magenta color, so I couldn't do much calibration. Parked cars and stop signs and house paint were not obviously false colored, but I took for granted that my color perception wasn't trustworthy. To put it another way, the stop sign was stop-sign-colored, whatever that might have been. So there was some blurring of the lines between labelling (high level cognition) and perception (low level cognition) going on there, which suggests that these are not quite as distinct subsystems as we might imagine.

@MrRedstonefreedom

Жыл бұрын

"essentially" a synonym isn't a synonym; they clearly meant magenta and they'd be right. There's no single wavelength of light you can make to produce the effect.

@smergthedargon8974

Жыл бұрын

It's 100% fallacious - what's a true "color" and what's mixed are entirely cultural. For much of human history all colors were considered variations of black, white, and red.

You have single handedly helped me pass my Philosophy of the Mind module. Thank you so much for your channel!

@jeffreykaplan1

3 жыл бұрын

I don't think it was single handedly. You also had a hand in it. But glad I could help!

@abbeyjane5970

3 жыл бұрын

While that is true I definitely had no clue about what my teacher was trying to explain until I watched your videos.

@enterthevoidIi

Жыл бұрын

it's four handedly unless

This blew my frickin mind wow

Unbelievable! I just stumbled into your channel. I've contemplated this quandary since I was a teenager. I had a color blind friend and we had some really deep conversations over it. I realize that being color blind is not the exact same thing but it was the segway to the inverted qualia idea. I have brought this idea up to so many people and it seemed that I was the only one that ever questioned it. I've absolutely explained my theory almost verbatim using fire engines and tomatoes compared to grass and trees. However, I could never really get anyone to agree with me or to even show much interest so I actually thought that I was the only one that ever explored this possibility, let alone did I know it actually has a name! Inverted qualia. I feel like I just found another human being on what I presumed to be a deserted island. Thank You! By the way, I've just became a subscriber.

@jaredwonnacott9732

Жыл бұрын

I'm colorblind, and totally went down the same rabbit whole and have loved the idea since I was a kid. It was nice to find a video that made me realize I'm not the only one thinking about it, but even nicer to find this comment, that nearly perfectly matches my experience. More kids should be having deep philosophical discussions like we did.

@amma814

Жыл бұрын

I too have wondered about this possibility since forever, and I've always known that it is impossible to know either way. I've recently used this possiblity discussing with an atheist to show him that actually God exists. Because the knowledge is there and "someone" has it. (I.e the knoweldge that two people see two colours exactly the same or slightly in different shades or have completely inverted expeirences of the colours for example, while the two people can in no way know the other person's experience).

@stogieltd

Жыл бұрын

@@amma814 There are so many things people take for granted and may never realize the truth. Inverted qualia is a really good example. Another example would be the sunrise and sunset. When you see the sunrise, you're actually seeing something that literally hasn't happened yet but when you see the sunset, you're seeing something that actually happened about five minutes ago! I don't understand how someone can not believe in God to at least some degree. People always want proof of something as seeing is believing but seeing is far from factual. You can not trust what you see so why trust something you can't see? It's a conundrum. You can see the gentle calming breeze rustling through the trees or you can see the devastating results of high winds, so you know wind exists, but you can not see wind. There's so many facts that elude the very mankind as a whole. The very same mankind that think they have all the answers. I love science, philosophy and God. They're all intertwined. You just simply can't have one without the other.

@chriskopeck8575

Жыл бұрын

So my question is this.... in videos where color blind people get those special glasses, how can they all of a sudden assign the word red to the red balloon if they never knew what red really looked like?

@jaredwonnacott9732

Жыл бұрын

@@chriskopeck8575 They've always known what red looks like. What the colorblind correcting glasses do is filter out excess light from certain parts of the spectrum to cause colors to stand out more strongly and contrast better than they typically do for those that are colorblind. It doesn't actually fix colorblindness, but it does a decent job of making the world feel a little more colorful. There are apps you can download to get a colorblind experience, and to even see, (sorta) what the world looks like through those glasses.

I just discovered your channel. I'm a technician and a bit of a nerd and, while philosophy has always held some fascination for me, it has never really appealed all that much to me. The two presentations by you that I have watched have given the subject new meaning for me. Thank you. Shalom.

You could say the functionalist is describing the function for each individual not every person who ever lived. Had there been 2 identical persons with identical brains in identical situations, there is no reason to think their experiences would be different.

@kbee225

10 ай бұрын

The problem is we can't ever be sure of it.

@gabrielteo3636

10 ай бұрын

@@kbee225 "The problem is we can't ever be sure of it." That's correct, but I don't need surety. Do you? There is no good reason to think the other twin would experience a different red, then why doubt it very much? It is theist that look for surety.

Protanopia and Deuteranopia are types of Anopia. Greek: An - meaning un, without. Opia - meaning vision Protanopia. Prot - from proto greek meaning first of a pair. Green looks more red. Deutranopia. Deuter - from deutero latin meaning second of a pair. Red looks more green. Protanope - a protanoptic person with protanopia who has the condition of protanomaly. Deuteranope - a deuteranoptic person with deuteranopia who has the condition of deuteranomaly. (Optal - visionary, about vision. Optic - from French short from Greek opticus, which comes from Greek: opto - visible and ikus - adjective suffix)

@goodkawz

Жыл бұрын

prosopagnosia - face blindness. (Brad Pitt has it. So why does he never “take one for team” and go for an ugly one?)

It is now the second video of you that I watch and I experience a deja vu. I read William Poundstone's Labyrinths of Reason 30 years ago...

I once had some medication that suppressed my green receptors under strong light conditions. It's not qualia inversion, but it's amazing how quickly you get used to grass being a dull greyish orange!

@drsaikiranc

2 ай бұрын

which medication was that?

@anotherfreediver3639

2 ай бұрын

@@drsaikiranc An antihistamine, when I used to have bad hay-fever. Possibly Danerall, but it was a long time ago! I think I exceeded the recommended dose.

Okay I'm looking this up because I found out I'm color blind. But I thought that meant I can't see colors. No, I swear to you my greens are blues, certain yellows and oranges are pink, I thought my parents taught me wrong. One day i changed my shirt to a shirt I thought was pink. I don't like the color. My fiance during game night said he liked it, I said " I'd like it more if it wasn't pink" everyone stopped and stared at me and was like...thats yellow. Then we later went over flash cards and to me I was like no was these cards have to be wrong...

@annaclarafenyo8185

Жыл бұрын

You are likely tetrachromat, or have a differently tuned cone receptor than other people. The fact that you can easily tell something is wrong shows you that the thought experiment in this video is coming to false conclusions. This is why philosophizing without experiment is dangerous.

@crgrier

Жыл бұрын

That's similar to my son who is blind to blue. A blue light will be grey. but, other colors that come from mixed pigmants he just sees weird. For example, purple becomes pink for a shirt but not for a purple piece of plastic.

@goodkawz

Жыл бұрын

Musically speaking, how do I know that the note that sounds like middle C to me sounds a note or to higher or lower to everyone else? And that the colors i experience aren’t bent like a guitar note compared to the “pure” note that anyone or everyone else experiences? And what what about my experiences of pain, love, sorrow, and various emotion? Are they different for you? How different?

@macmcleod1188

Жыл бұрын

Have you tried Enchroma glasses? Essentially, most people have Blue: 10 Red: 10 Yellow: 10 But color blind people have something like Blue: 8 Red: 7 Yellow: 10 Essentially, Enchroma glasses block some of the excess color leaving you with something like Blue: 8 Red: 7 Yellow: 8 Which lets you see red and colors with red. They are expensive ($400ish?) but there is a red/green kind that is less expensive ($200ish?) . Lots of videos about people with colorblindness having strong emotional reactions to finally seeing vivid reds and objects that seemed the same color to them finally looking different.

@utnis

Жыл бұрын

​@@annaclarafenyo8185 you must appreciate that thought experiment is pretty useful. A molested child can't actually express their experience as bad just as that child can't express their green is red. It's useful for adults to use thought experiment to realise molestation is wrong. It's immoral to validate that molestation is wrong by replication, and standardized molesting for scientific rigour isn't realisable.

The fly in this ointment: color blindness. My relative is color blind to red hues, I was surprised when I was told this. The first question I had was, how do you know to stop at a red light, their answer was when the top lights bright I Stop.

@serversurfer6169

Жыл бұрын

Sounds like they simply _lack_ the pigment in their red cones. 🤔

@Juan-os4hs

Жыл бұрын

@@serversurfer6169 I don't recall exactly, but it's more like they have less red cones or none at all.

I am an electronics engineer who spent the last seven years of my life as a color scientist. Working with laser based and LCD color proofing systems. The three types of cones are long, medium, and short wavelength photo pigment sensitive areas. Long is what you refer to as red, medium is green, and short is blue. I can get a colormetric match in a normal humans by stimulating both the long (red) and medium (green) cones. The person will perceive yellow. I can do this with a single wavelength of light (yellow) or I can get the same perception by mixing red and green light from an LCD screen. If I mix blue and red light the person will perceive magenta. There is no single wavelength of light that produce this same perception. Now if the person has the red and green reversed connections it would be able to produce this same perception with a single wave length of light that overlaps blue and green. This is an objective way to detect if these people exist. I am a functionalist. Talk with a color scientist if you want to know more...BTW I am an anomolus trichromat. A person who sees all wave length of light, but sees luminance differences stronger than color differences that "normal" people see. This can be discovered with a series of tests. I found this out when I applied to get a commercial pilots license. I was able to get that license by using the 100 hue Farnsworth test instead of the Ishihara dot test.

@tdhoward

Жыл бұрын

That's really interesting! Thanks for sharing this info. I remember reading something about how electronic cameras have a hard time recording purple, and I think it relates to this. It explains why purple objects often look blue on TV. I think it's related, but a different effect.

@eliyagabriele3875

Жыл бұрын

So... If there's a way to test it, we can figure out who has the green and red switched, right?

@ray3maxwell

Жыл бұрын

@@eliyagabriele3875 YES

@eliyagabriele3875

Жыл бұрын

@@ray3maxwell Huh! Interesting. I wonder how the reaction would be if you told the person with inverted colour that what they see is the opposite of what others see. It would definitely be interesting to see

@JavierAlbinarrate

Жыл бұрын

Hi there. I think there is a problem with the example. If you provide red and blue he would still reply magenta. Because that's what he learnt. And you would still not get the same reply with any single wavelength color. He may have swapped the cone pigments or the optical nerves or the exact brain processing center, however his brain developed with those inputs and the same environment feedback. Thus ending with the correct input/output correlation. At least in theory. The practical flaw may instead come from the assumption that all cones act as transducers with an identical transfer function giving an identical perceived intensity, and we know that's not the case in reality. Different cones have different transfers regardless of the pigment. That may lead to different dynamic ranges for the channels leading to subtle detectable differences in turn leading to the color inverted being detected without a dissection ;) . Although much more difficult than a magenta test. In any case that does not hamper functionalism, as this is more of a thought experiment assuming identical inverted inputs, not a biochemistry test design.

In college, I was diagnosed with red-green color blindness. I did not know. I could identify reds and greens, but one time I was told I got it wrong. I would have kept my functional state had I not been told. Now I have a practical difference. The difference I experience for red and green would not create a different quality experience. I just believe what I was told. I would not even know if it wasn't for the eye diagnosis and the feedback.

@lirich0

3 ай бұрын

Probably cause you red green color blindness is not malignant enough to profoundly hinder your daily experiences. It’s important to distinguish color inversion and color blindness.

As long as there is a qualifier that is independent from the individual's experience (a.k.a non-subjective), for an experience, it can be very easily told if a person is experiencing inverted qualia or not. For example if you show the person the color red written the wavelength of the color under it, and the same with green and ask them to write down the number of the wavelength of the color that resembles a tomato, you will know if the person is color inverted or not. (If they write down the wavelength of green, they are color inverted) Am I missing something?

@_ranko

9 ай бұрын

yeah i think what he's saying is that whatever the color you see as 550nm wavelength is, we call it green but we won't know if the green that _you're_ experiencing is the same green that _everyone else_ is.

@GRDwashere

8 ай бұрын

@@_ranko This is why I trust machines and not people. My spectrometer and oscilloscope don't have these issues or vested interests that motivate them to lie, steal, or cheat on me with my former best friend one week before our wedding.

Great content! Can you do an in depth video on Dworkin's constructive theory next?

@jeffreykaplan1

3 жыл бұрын

Hopefully I will get to it soon!

I remember seeing a movie back in the day, probably sometime in the 80s, where there was a guy falling in love with a girl who had been blind since birth, and he was trying to explain things he could see to her. She was having trouble with the concept of color. He asked her to come over the next day so he could try to explain color. He put a stone in the freezer overnight. When she arrived the next day, he boiled a pot of water and put another stone in the pot of water. He took the stone from the freezer and placed it in her hand. “This is BLUE,” he said. Then he took the stone from the boiling water and, after letting it cool off just a bit, placed it in her hand and said, “This is RED.” I can’t remember the movie, but it obviously had an impact on me. Anyone know the movie I’m talking about? EDIT: I think the guy may have also had a room temperature stone that he identified as “GREEN.” Not sure about this part, though…

@JasonJBrunet

Жыл бұрын

I remember this too! Could it have been....Mask? The one with Cher.

@lIII0IIIl

Жыл бұрын

@@JasonJBrunet I do believe you are right! I had to think about it for a minute, but I’m seeing the characters in that scene now! Thank you!!

Talking about not knowing the difference between internal experiences, I'd recommend looking up aphantasia. Those with Aphantasia do not have sensory recall of one or more senses. Some lack visual imagination, others lack multisensory imagery. They only get live sensory input and cannot imagine their loved ones' faces, replay a song in their heads, some even lack internal monologues. For those that discovered they had it in adulthood, they lived their whole lives thinking that "picturing" something, counting sheep, or a song stuck in your head were just turns of phrase or plot devices. The variety of internal lived experiences is under-researched, and mind boggling

Damn these videos are enjoyable

Wait a minute you are writing on that board in a reverse manner right...?

@gobot109

Жыл бұрын

Probably flipped the video to correct that

@NoahSpurrier

Жыл бұрын

You can see he prints with his “left” hand. It’s more likely that he is right handed and the video is flipped than he is left handed and an expert at printing backwards.

@ReligionAndMaterialismDebunked

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, I've wondered the same. Haha

@christianglass1802

Жыл бұрын

The shirt buttons are flipped as compared to regular men’s shirts… so flipped in editing it is 😊 unless he is left right inverted, but has never questioned it before… and is wearing a woman’s shirt

@trigonzobob

Жыл бұрын

What part of "inverted qualia" did you not understand?

This video was posted 2 years ago so, I'm probably to late with this comment, but... it seems to me that when white light is passed through a prism a sequential pattern of spectral color emerges, in other words there is an order to the sequence of how light is divided into color bands by frequency, that is independent of experience, for example if we use 6 letters to symbolize the 6 colors of the spectrum R- O - Y - G - B - V to mean red, orange, yellow, green, blue, and violet. Where Red, Yellow and Blue are primary colors, and green, orange, and violet are the secondary colors... we have a very specific repeatable sequence that appears... . If a color inverted person had red and green color inversion, then they may have a normal experience by their own account when moving through life looking at things, but the order they see color in a spectrum would be different than that which everyone else sees. They would look at a prismatic spectrum and see Green Orange Yellow, Red Blue and Violet. While the color inversion may seem normal to them, if you asked them to lay out 6 crayons of corresponding color to the spectrum on the table in the order they perceive a prismatic light spectrum, their order would not correspond to everyone else experience. We could ask them to draw something with crayons, but suppose they drew an apple, apples in nature come in both red and green. While it is true that without the assistance of another person who had normal color vision to make a comparison, a person would have no reference points within their experience to know that they have color inversion, it would only be a verifiable condition through testing against a labeled spectrum that does not change from one experiment to the next. Our perception of experience, measurement, and the language we use to describe those, seem to all be of relative importance. Perception becomes even more interesting when we examine people who have had traumatic brain injury or stroke that results in hemi-neglect ( a condition where only one half of the brain is functioning normally), and only one half of the world is perceived by the individuals with this condition. if asked to dress their self they will only put clothing on half of their body, they brush the teeth on one side of their mouth and leave the side corresponding to the brain injury un-brushed, they shave half their face, and if you show them a picture of a flower or a shape like a square or a circle and ask them to draw it for you on piece of paper, they will only draw one half of the image. When you question them about why they didn't draw the other side of the image, they respond with complete astonishment, and often anger, they think you are crazy... because one half of the world you perceive does not even exist to them, including half of their own body, yet their conscious mind see everything as whole and complete, they can not detect anything missing. The self is not a good tool to use to use to measure the self, especially if the self is damaged in some way. Our inability to see absence in our perception leads to a lot of questions about just how limited our conscious experience really is, even if it is functioning at its optimum potential. Without reference points, or relative experience shared. by another's experience, we could ask does it even matter how we perceive the world. Than we have synesthesia and several other perceptual qualities or anomalies that you can not determine in ordinary interaction with people. So if we take all of that together, it is quite clear that there is very little chance that common experience is truly common. While we all share many similarities, there are really no two people who are really having the same experience even if they are having all of the same sensory input... and it can be argued that even that is unique in every case, because if two people sit together na watch a sunset, they photons striking one person's eyes are not the same photons that are striking the other person's eyes. The best we can hope for is similarity of experience, because even in repeatable experiments that yield the same data, there is an element of uniqueness that provably exists, and though our perception of those differences may fail, they can be measured. If common experience can be described with common language and two people can agree on a definition of some or other experience, it can never be proven that they are truly having the same experience, but by measurement, the opposite is in fact the case, that no two people are having the same experience... statistical approximations are the best we can ever hope for... we are similar enough to build societies and to have relationships and form families... but from the quarks that make up the atomic particles, to the compounds, and cells and tissue we are developed from, to how we see, think and feel... every person is a unique entity.

A "mixed color" is just a color which hasn't been named. Purple is a mixed color (and is described as such in the video) of blue and read. it's opposite is a mixed yellowish green. A common name for yellowish green is chartreuse. So what if Rita said the color was "pure purple" and Sid said the color was "pure chartreuse"?

@daniphrog

Жыл бұрын

That’s what I thought too

@ConciousConstruct

11 ай бұрын

Yeah, the responses to this critique are dumber than the critique. Unfortunately he didn’t go over the fact that if we had fine enough tools and instruments to measure the goop with we could very likely be able to figure out who is inverted. The scientists arrived at the conclusion that there are inverted people precisely because the brain creates the mind.

Just discovered your channel! Great... another science subscription! How can it even be said that any two persons' experience of the world is at all similar? My experience of salt may be your experience of sour. My sharp pain from a pin may be your feeling of being tickled, and so forth. I actually considered this quandary back in middle school after reading Ray Bradbury's story "Tomorrow's Child".

@camelCased

Жыл бұрын

I've been thinking about this in the context of our nervous system and emotional experiences. People often tend to belittle suffering of others, especially children. For example, someone accidentally stepped on a toy car. The kid who owned this car feels bad and starts crying. An adult just shrugs and says: "Your car is no big deal. My friend recently lost a job - that's a big deal". But actually, the experience of that child might have the same intensity as losing a job for an adult! With more life experience, a person will learn that losing a job should be more emotionally devastating than losing a toy, but still, it will not change the fact that the same person in childhood might have experienced the same emotions. Thus we should not belittle other people suffering by explaining it away with a lack of experience or being too sensitive and emotional.

@kbee225

10 ай бұрын

​@@camelCasedthen you'll never teach the kid that toy cars aren't as big a deal as losing a job.

I`ve heard that we actually see upside down when we are born but the brain flips the vision after some time, there has been experiment when they have flipped the vision with a eyelens and the brain has flipped it again. So the question is if the brain does the same when it comes the case you mention at the end of the video. Another question is if it is the brain that does it or is the mind/soul? You can also ask if for example the colour red is a intrinsic property to reality. That would suggest that the building blocks of our minds represent a greater reality.

I may be misremembering my philosophy days, but isn't the point supposed to be that there is no test that we could run to figure out if you see the same green I see? But, in your example, we actually could run a test. We could cut out someone's eyes and dissect their red and green cones and see if they have the correct color goop in there. Right?

@mrosskne

Жыл бұрын

How do you determine whether a cone is supposed to have red or green in it?

When I was young, one of my first deep thoughts was to wonder why we do anything that is fun or joyful or loving because the minute it's over, its gone. It is temporary. We have only a memory. I thought about it in high school because I was on a workout program that was geared toward foods I didnt like. But I justified it to myself because the temporary joy I experienced by breaking the diet would be in the past nearly immediately, and it eould impact my life negatively after that. This thought can be a good motivational tool, but it can also be deeply depressing. Why do we do anything? Its all temporary.

I thought about this very thing when I was growing up because my left eye saw red less saturated or more subdued than my right. I have heterochromia or whatever its called and I wondered if having different eye colors might affect what peoples favorite colors were because of how they perceived colors.

Couldn't you have the colors labeled with their wavelength and just point to a color and say what color is this and find out if there was a difference between two people

There's no way to know if any two people experience color the same way. Maybe the colors we experience are as unique as we are. ..

@drebk

Жыл бұрын

There kind of is, for certain colors. There is a known medical condition (I cannot recall the name), that results in a hyper-distinguishing color palate. They see far more colors than the average human. The test sets out like 20 cards that are green, but one is a very slight different shade of green. The hyper color vision people can very easily pick out the different shade card. But the rest of us just say they are all the same green.... because that is what they look to us.

@MrDavePed

Жыл бұрын

@@drebk Interesting but you totally missed the point. Your green and my green, the experience of them, the exact same wavelength might be totally different experiences and there's no way to know if we all experience the same color when we see green or if the experience is totally unique to each individual. ..

@drebk

Жыл бұрын

@MrDavePed no... it appears that you have missed the point of my comment, which is not just a reemphasis or restatement of key point in the video. We know via repeatable experiment that even though a group of people are experiencing 11 exact same wavelength greens, and one slightly different wavelength green, the vast majority will not be able to tell any difference. A very small percentage of the population can differentiate the colors. It is actually quite interesting, as the ability to distinguish the difference changes color with different cultures, but I digress. The point that you missed (and yet assumed I missed), is that it doesn't matter what color each participant is individually experiencing. So, while my example uses "green", yes there is no guarantee that you are experiencing the same "green" as me, and not say "red". But my entire point is that we know we can send subtly different wavelengths to a group of people and only a select few see in hyper color. How you missed that point I don't know. ...

@drebk

Жыл бұрын

@@MrDavePed perhaps re-read my comment... I said nothing about whether we experience the same experience of green... You're right - that would have missed the entire point of the video. This is why my comment introduces a new concept. Again, why you assumed I missed the main point of the video is a bit strange.

@MrDavePed

Жыл бұрын

@@drebk You should post your own comment rather than starting a new topic by disagreeing with my point. If you're lucky, someone will respond to what you have said rather than use your comment as a vehicle to say something entirely unrelated, couched as a disagreement. But only if you're very fortunate. ..

But the reaction to a fire truck is also learned, so the person with inverted qualia just has an equivalent reaction to what he perceives, as someone with non-inverted qualia to his perception. It's rather strange to first argue, that the person born with inverted qualia would just build all its associations to match just that, effectively "wire" the input so green associates with gras and red with a fire truck, but then argue, that the functional states are fundamentally different, when they're just equivalent with a rather primitve mapping (exchanging red for green). Also functionalism doesn't care which lanes of nerves transport a green signal and which ones transport red, or even if it's nerves at all, it's completely sufficient, that someone who learned what gras looks like in his sensory system, inverted or not, remembers that association e.g. when describing something else as "gras green".

@JavierAlbinarrate

Жыл бұрын

Perfectly explained. The neuron paths might be different but the inner state in the sense of attributed meaning is the same. Hence there isn't a real problem for functionalism.

@mrosskne

Жыл бұрын

@@JavierAlbinarrate The inner state isn't the same. They have different subjective experiences.

@JavierAlbinarrate

Жыл бұрын

@mike not if they think the same for the same experience. Both identify the same concept for the same inputs. Even if processed differently within the brain. After all we all process the information differently.

color is completely culturally subjective though. take azzuro and blu in italian. both describe colors that an english speaker would describe as blue, but to any italian they are distinct and pure colors.

I would appreciate it if you can explain ceteris paribus in details and the back and forth arguments among philosophers of mind

I think qualia are like variables used in programming - it doesn’t matter as long as they stay consistent for the individual. Everyone’s are probably entirely different, so “switching” makes no sense.

1. Purple definitely looks like a "mixed" color to me. Also note that people raised using different languages that use different color palettes see colors the way they are raised to. For example in Gaelic blue and light blue are two different colors with different names and Gaelic speakers don't psychologically think of them as shades of one color the way English speakers do. This implies that the color identification is socially learned. 2. Color is inextricably linked to the wavelength of the light received, which must affect the nerve-receptors in a specific way, so it's probable that * eventually* we will advance neuroscience to the point where the color question can be objectively answered. 3. Speaking of other "qualia", it's interesting to wonder just how much our experience is translated by the brain into something different from the actual perception. It has been shown in experiments that if a person wears glasses that invert all images for a time (not sure if the exact time needed, but multiple days at the minimum) then the brain reorients the images and begins translating them so that the person now sees the inverted images as "normal". And unlike the color question, these are people who have experienced normal vision and can report that what they are seeing is different from what they saw before. This has weird and unexplored implications concerning qualia and the relationship between the brain and the "self" (or the part of the brain that we think of as the self and other parts of the brain).

@allafleche

11 ай бұрын

I also have always seen purple as a mix of blue and red, I have no memory of me realizing it was a mix.

@katattack907

11 ай бұрын

Came here to mention exactly what you did: color categories are culturally learned! Looking at a digital color picker, you can really see that colors blend into each other fluidly along axes of hue, saturation, and brightness. What we see as "pure" colors is based on what we grow up recognizing as a common color. As you mentioned, not all languages have words for every color. Most languages (maybe all?) at least have a word for light/white and dark/black, and if they only have one other color name, it's almost always "red" before anything else. Super interesting!

I guess the best we have, is structural equivalence of our qualia. Since that's a prerequisite of using the same terms functionally. For a functioning language with non-identical but structurally equivalent qualia, I guess a lot of color cycle aspects should change as well. So it would probably be similar to two color circles, where our circles would mismatch by whole steps. Doesn't seem impossible. Experience inversion could also be possible for tunes. But is it plausible? And what evidence or hints would we have? Observable biological differences seem a solid argument as pointed out by you. Inversion of dark and light shades are rather difficult to imagine though, as darkness is equivalent to silence and brightness to loudness. Although white-out and dark-out will both render you blind, so maybe it is. Thanks for the inspiration!

The argument around 15:00 about 'pure' and 'mixed' colors presumes that these are a universally percieved. I doubt the validity of that argument. Being a phonetician, just playing around, I once asked some Dutch and Hungarians which of two sounds sounded more complex to them. These sounds would be represented in English by 1./s/ and 2./sh/, in Dutch by 1./s/ and 2/sj/, and in Hungarian by 1./sz/ and 2./s/ respectively. All of the Dutch judged sound 2. to be the more complex, but all of the Hungarians chose sound 1. Clearly, a seemlingly objective quality like simple/complex may be influenced by the complexity of the writing or labeling that is associated with it culturally. Similarly, using separate names for certain colors, could contribute to perceiving those colors as more 'pure'.

I always wondered about this

You are fantastic 😊😊

Surely observing colours (and in particular there placements in relations to other colours) on a colour wheel or the order of them in a rainbow would help identify people who saw things differently? Also, technically the colour of any object is the opposite of what we perceive. For example a red object only appears red to the observer as that is the frequency of light that bounces off of that object. The object is actually absorbing all the other colours of the spectrum. So, you could argue that any object is all of the other colours other than the colour we observe them to be.

These presentations are great, thank you! Do you edit/flip the original filmed footage left to right so you've not had to write backwards?

This is weird. I am red/green colorblind. I didn't KNOW this until I joined the U.S.Navy at 18 years old. When you join the military, you have to take a physical. I was in line, to take this test. I was about 3 people away from a nurse, showing this book of "bubbles" to the guys in front of me. The guys were looking at the pages and reading out numbers, I thought they were reading the page number or something, because I saw NO NUMBERS. Apparently, this is a "color blindness" test. For 18 years I never knew I was color blind, until I was tested. I guess your point is VERY sound, if I had never been tested, I would of never known. All I can tell you how it affects my life, I find it near impossible to "match" dark brown and black socks, both look the same. Most "dark" colors blend to my eyes and look the same. Red lights for driving look red, green lights look green. But start to mix those colors and I am really lost. Hope that helps someone.. BTW.. There are tests in the Internet for color blindness, if your a male, you should get tested. Just search for Bubble Color Test, then it will seem clear (or unclear).

@skoosharama

Жыл бұрын

They're also call Ishihara color tests, or Ishihara plates. There are several plates to diagnose several different types of color blindness. One really awesome aspect of the tests is that there are some Ishihara plates that people with certain forms of color blindness can read, but that people with "normal" vision cannot. In some ways, you and other colorblind people kind of have a strange little superpower. Also, it's a lot more common among males, but some nontrivial percentage of female humans also have color blindness. Therefore, everyone should get tested. Thank you for describing your subjective color experience!

@mrosskne

Жыл бұрын

Would have.

I used to pester my mother about this when I was a child. Only I talked about orange, because my toy was orange. I'd tell her that maybe I see orange as green, but you taught me that it's called 'orange', so now we use the same word to signify two different colors! And if so, we'll never even know! In response she kept repeating, as if I was confused: IT'S ORANGE!!!

I thought of this in 5th grade and explained it to my friends on the playground. Later in college when I studied perception and psychobiology, I learned about cones and rods and the evolution of the eye, which tells us that we process the light spectrum the same way.. yes, there’s color blindness, but that’s different and mostly about how we parse blends or mixes of colors

I would utilize a dark hue of orange, purple and green and asked which one stands out to them more. The color that is Orange being warmer and brighter in it's very essence, should stand out more compared to colors closer to colder hues like purple and green, even if in it's tinted. I would ask him which color appears brighter in pigment in comparison and that' s how we would know we see the same thing.

Not sure I ever encountered a better explainer!

@ghytd766

Жыл бұрын

Trey the explainer

I feel like there are some limited tests we can perform. One would be optical illusions, for example how people's brains think red + blue = violet. Violet is its own separate color past indigo, and yet people's brains see red + blue as real similar to violet. That optical illusion seems to be rooted in funky brain wiring, so if people share that illusion, they've got similar wiring. That doesn't prove IDENTICAL wiring, of course. Another possibility is the ability to recognize color similarities. If everyone sees red and orange as more similar than red and blue, and green as more similar to blue than yellow is to purple, then perhaps people are seeing colors the same. Still another possibility is linguistic, but I'm not sure this is germane. There is a pattern among languages, with how many color words they have. Languages that have the most limited set of color words, always have black vs white. Languages with just one more color have a word for red. And so on, with pretty much the same "order" of words emerging in a language. That suggests a need to express concepts that are commonly perceived, maybe. Black is dark; white is bright; red is vibrant.

@bbyghostie1044

Жыл бұрын

Ahhh this is interesting. I think a problem with the language one depends on what percent of people have inverted qualia. If it's a minority, then I think you run into the same issue of the society they live in mostly seeing it one way and being raised to call it that same word. The distribution of inverted qualia would have to be where some societies have a minority and others have a majority. That'd be the only way to compare two different societies. For the second test you mentioned, I'm trying to think through this though: would the fact that red and green are primary light colors impact light colors that they combine to make? So since orange light is a combination of red and yellow, would someone with inverted qualia see orange as the combination of green and yellow (bright chartreuse) and just call it orange? So to them orange (what they see as bright chartreuse) is still more similar to red (what they see as green). And combining green (their red) with yellow to make bright chartreuse would appear what we call orange to them. So they would also say that the bright chartreuse (their orange) is more similar to green (their red) despite internally "seeing" it differently. Maybe it could work with non primary colors? Idk it took me too long to think about it and I'm tired lol

I think the functionalism response would be to re-imagine their idea of mental state = functional state would not mean that the mental states were exactly equivalent between individuals but the concept of differentials would be equivalent . That is to say that the mental state is not a definitive quantity or quality, but rather is merely a contrasting perception of differentiation .

I had a rear projection tv where the red went out for a few weeks, after watching the tv for a few hours it was hard to tell and when you go out from watching it without the red for awhile you would see the real world in a different way for a while as well. Quite funny!

on the note of the example with the person seeing everything twice as big as everyone else. well, if you ever used a VR headset this might actually sound familiar. in VR, if the game's camera settings and your VR headset's lens/eye distance isn't calibrated correctly, everything will look either super small or super big to you. because you are used to how far apart your own eye are. you are used to how the scale of the world around you is, based on the position of your eyes. move your eyes closer together and everything will look larger to you, move them farther apart and the world around you will look too small. I bet you could achieve the same effect by using mirrors arranged in a certain way in a glasses like thing you put on. so in a way, we indeed kinda see a different scale, but because we are used to it since it's the only way we ever saw the world, everything looks normally scaled to us. change the position of the eyes tho and everything will look off.

Temperature is related to color, higher wavelength light is warmer. Use a prism and split the light and put a thermometer in each color, theyvwill read different temperatures

Ive seen some other very interesting videos about this topic (e.g. by the channel "be smart" and "mailbab", which is German), who had stated that in ancient texts from Greece, like the Odyssee), the authors described the ocean as purple, but nothing as blue. They explained, that the ancient authors probably haven't have learned the right color ) nurture vs. nature. Some African tribes apparently can distinguish between different tones of yellow, which all look the same to us western people...

@kbee225

10 ай бұрын

Not purple. Black.

I might be very confused here but might there be a way to figure out if your color inverted? The colors red and green are at different wave lengthsnofbthe light spectrum, which means they have different properties and can be measured. I *think* thats part of the reason why plants (because chlorophyll) here on earth with our particular sun and atmosphere are green. If someone is color inverted could they see that their measurements dont make quite as much sense as otherwise. Cant word this properly on my phone :/

@MsJavaWolf

Жыл бұрын

The question is, whether those wavelengths always produce the same subjective experience in the mind, the same qualia. That baby would act and talk in a way that's completely compatible with science, it would call a certain wavelength green, it would call grass green, it would call things that have chlorophyll in them green, while in his mind perceiving a colour that most others would call red.

@rickoshay6554

Жыл бұрын

You're not confused at all. Instead of comparing "fire trucks" and "grass" or how you "feel" about a particular color, you could know by comparing 700nm light which is "Red" and 540nm light which is "Green." You'd also know because these colors appear in a particular, definitive sequence along the color spectrum from a rainbow or a prism: "Green" is the color in the middle; if you see it on one end, you're color inverted.

@1234radio

Жыл бұрын

The way we see colors is irrelevant with the way they are. Actually there are no colors at all; it's just our brain's response to certain light wavelengths. There is no separate thing as light also. Light is just a tiny fraction of the whole electromagnetic spectrum - from radio waves to gamma rays. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_spectrum#Regions I hope this can help your thoughts.

@JavierAlbinarrate

Жыл бұрын

​@@rickoshay6554 yet you are wrong. He would point the green correctly in the rainbow as well as its wavelength. Because that is what he learnt to call green. The fact that the cones or the optical nerves are swapped would make no difference in the reasoning. Unless you poke his brain with electrodes to compare the data streams against the expected values. From an outside point of view, it is indistinguishable from a normal person.

I don't understand how seeing inverted colors and all things being bigger differs. That thinking doesn't make any sense. An impression of color is just associating the wave length of light reflected or emitted by some objects with the similar wave lengths of light emitter or reflected by other objects. Red is just looking like blood, and green is just looking like grass. A reaction for a light stimuli, it can't just be inverted. We could only talk about inversion if we decoded the data within the brain, assign like absolute numerical values to them, and see... One brain seeing green generates 0x007700, and in other brain 0x770000 appears. AFAIK, it's not how brains even work. Probably ;) That of course makes functionalism work ;) We have a learned reaction to a stimulus and it can't be "inverted", because we would have to ask the obvious question - inverted to WHAT? It reminds me big-endian / little-endian thing in CS. Let's say we have 2 digital devices that store or exchange binary digits in a different order. Do they do different calculations? Do they work differently? No. It completely doesn't matter. What matters is in order to be able to communicate them they must agree on a common "language" or to be precise "communication protocol". And that's what a human language is. Having that protocol we can COMPARE experiences. And that implies we can reason about reality. When using the protocol we can describe experience in a certain way and it's coherent - ergo we can assume it's highly probable the phenomenon causing the experience exists. One more thing, we can tell the difference between little-endian and big endian because there is a simple order that the binary digits are stored, processed and transmitted. We don't know that about brains. We know something else though - modifying the vision of a person makes the person interpretation of the image different. So - vertically or horizontally flipped image becomes normal and natural to them after a certain time. Brains just adapt to whatever data comes into it. My dad is half blind in one eye. But he doesn't describe his blindness as an artifact or a hole in his vision. He says he sees normally, but like things are appearing into his field of view suddenly. He doesn't know he misses an object being in a field of view of one eye until the objects becomes visible in the other eye. His brain just fills up the gaps. So - perceptual experiences of 2 people are the same, unless their senses are impaired significantly. My red is your red. Unless you're colorblind.

I am absolutely serious. Mr. Caplan, this is the 4th video that am I watching. Videos from you. Everytime it felt like as if you were talking about something, that I already was thinking about and asking myself about, intensely, but I never spoke to anyone about these thoughts. Are you reading my mind or what is going on here? /// edit: It feels like a dejavue, or being inside the trueman show, or a glitch...

There is cross stimulation of different cones. All three cones activate for all visual light wavelengths, but they activate in different log tiers for each specific pure wavelength.

Wouldn't a test using color chart arranged according to the continuous wavelengths demonstrate inverted qualia?

Yes, I do get your point. How many times must your repeat the same info?

what about a color chart? ask the color inverted person to point out red and green. wouldn't that settle it? thanks for the great videos my friend, love your channel!

I also used to think about this as a kid. I remember trying to explain it by asking, if I could see the world through your eyes would the colours I see look different? Alas no philosophers around at that time to provide an explanation 😂

@bbyghostie1044

Жыл бұрын

Same and it got brushed off as if I was just being dumb lol

A better counter-argument for the Functionalist might be that the inversion or even specifics of qualia don't even matter, just ignore the brain's experience of "color", call the color experience a generated illusion if you will, and that the actual mental state is the perception of a specific light frequency, which would never change regardless of qualia inversion (it's just how that frequency appears to them). Or that the interpreted experience (qualia) and the experience itself (perception of specific wavelengths) are a categorical kind, and figure out a good, solid definition for what mental states are exactly (the qualia color interpretation or the experience of the particular wavelength). Or in other words, I guess I am not understanding why it would matter if the functional experience is different from the mental state if the mental state for each individual is internally consistent and they give the same external function. Kind of like, does it matter if a table is made of metal or wood if it's given the same shape still functioning the same way? That the underlying material is irrelevant. And if functionalism is an argument in favor of physicalism as opposed to dualism, even if the wires and neurons and eye goop is inverted, that mental experience is still caused by the same kind... a physical thing (wavelength of light) interacting with a physical thing (cone goop) to send a physical signal (neural impulse) to the brain.... you see where I am going with this. It sure seems like the same mental state and process even if the end qualia is inverted and like it doesn't matter if you can't even tell whether or not it's inverted. It almost seems like another one of those errors of communication.

@JefferyKaplan On a world with inverted qialia people give grass for valemtines or is green rare?nAlso there are no canivores in an inverted world or blood is green. Is it?

How would color connotations work in this scenario? Maybe I'm mistaken but don't certain wavelengths of light (colors) make us feel certain emotions, generally? Or is that an association somehow formed with the color and how it's used?

It’s highly likely we all perceive color the same way (except for colorblind people or some genetics issue) because the according wavelengths of colors stimulate the same receptors in the human eye. Everything else is just definitions we agree on, like different languages.

@tomellis487

Жыл бұрын

Exactly, as if the same sound waves produce a C sharp in one person and a D flat in another.

@hyun-kookchoi6349

Жыл бұрын

Right! When someone says "table" some other person would not hear "chair" agreeing on the meaning "table" for "chair" and vice versa...

This is only consistent when we are talking about opposite colors on the color wheel, the rest is collor blindnes. Then if every color were swapped (including black and white), in theory, people who see white as black should be tired because black makes you want to sleep and white makes you wake up. Assuming that the brain reacts only this way to given visible light wavelength. ---- if only two colors are changed or shifed (where there is a second such combination to be balanced), and is not black and white, we will never know if someone has a different vision than we do.

how would this work in a colour wheel, wouldn't those swapped red and greens stick out in a colour wheel where the red you see doesn't fit between the purples and oranges?

Just look at the opening screen before starting the video. The KZread button is MY definition of "Red" while his screen is red shifted toward yellow/orange. Do we make Pantone®19-1664 TCX the standard? or 32-C? Or just ff0000? More shades than grey...🙃

How do you actually prove a difference between the states of two minds without the difference in behavior or function? Maybe there's some detail in the 'red cone/green cone' cartoon that was glossed over that could set me straight...The cartoon example just switches the positions of red and green cones, is that really enough prove a change in state of mind?

Living on the west coast, I once saw a green firetruck (used for wildfires) and it kinda took me a little too long to piece that together.

By the way, your audio levels for the lecture are much lower than the intro. The intro is at an appropriate volume level compared to preroll ads, but the lecture is too quiet

This qualia inversion is a fact amongst many people. Let me give you an example. In the English language we announce the number like 45, by saying forty five we announce the tenth digit before the units digit. In another language the number are announced differently ie, the first digit is announced first followed by the 10th digital. This means that unless, there is a switch these two processing system would not be able to properly communicate.

I know it's not the main topic here, but there is a way in knowing if someone has color inverted sight. I'm an electronics technician, resistors and wiring in some systems are color-coded, each color correspond to a number, converting those colors to numbers gives you their resistance in ohms, if I saw inverted colors, I'd mistake the resistance value of every resistor that has that color in them, thus realizing I have a problem seeing some colors correctly.

Wouldn't you know if you were inverted if everyone told you the red stop light was on top of the traffic light and the green go light was on the bottom?

Color temperature is more complicated than you suggest, it's not just that reds are warm and blues are cool; there are warm tone blues and cool tones reds but colors that are thought of as warm have a wider range of warm tones and vis versa for cool colors.

I think it is simpler than described in this lecture. Irrespective of the “gloop” in the eyeball, there is no way of knowing whether the sensation I experience as a colour is the same as the sensation someone else experiences as a colour. We call the experiences we both have as red or green or blue or whatever, but there is no knowing whether we have the same experience. Maybe that is one of the reasons why some people think that certain colours “go together“ and other people think they do not.

@stickman5613

Жыл бұрын

And the same principle apllies to taste. Some people love tomatoes, some hate them. Are they experiencing the same thing while eating tomatoes? We just don't know.

@Karasamune

Жыл бұрын

I think red and green look awful together even tho color theory says they're complementary. I do love orange and cyan tho

@gareth2736

Жыл бұрын

​@@stickman5613we know with some vegetables they aren't because people with a certain gene are more likely to perceive their taste as bitter.

@benmarr352

Жыл бұрын

Isaac Newton, and every designer worth their salt would disagree. Look up the colour wheel and have fun investigating why colours do or do not go together. That the colour inversion picked is a pair on the colour wheel is not an accident.

@mrosskne

Жыл бұрын

@@benmarr352 disagree with what?

It seems many people have pondered this, not to my surprise. And, this does prove that no qualia is universal or determinable. On the contrary to proving functionalism wrong, it seems that the argument of inverted qualia only reinforces the arbitrary and fickle nature of experience. There is no such thing as 'redness', there is only literal wavelengths of light. What looks red or green to some individual is completely meaningless beyond the accuracy of identifying the frequency of the light reflected by an object. The experience of 'redness' is simply an application of abstraction upon something that is inapplicable. Thank you for attending my Ted Talk

@justifiedhomicide5730

11 ай бұрын

Two months later, I have more to elaborate. Qualia isn't comparable. When someone asks, "what is it like to see red?" One can only ever answer, "it's like seeing red." or "it's like nothing else." An honest answer is 'it's like nothing.' That is to say, qualia is a nothing and is relative to nothing. What is it like to be a bat? It is like nothing. What is it like to experience pain? It is like nothing. Is your experience of red the same as mine? Effectively, yes. According to functionalism, all qualia is a result of the functions of the brain. I specify: What the functions of any system -represent-. It has the same properties as running a computer using electrons in binary or running the exact same computer mechanically with dominoes. You can run a functionally identical computer on any hardware, even in trinary code or qubits. Ok not sure about qubits, I don't understand quantum mechanics. So, it would seem the biological computer is the same. --If what the processes represent and the outputs of said processes are the same, then you get the same representation of "qualia".-- You change the input into the brain, you get different qualia. Obviously you can go from no pain to painful, or colorblind to color-vision, but can you go red-green to green-red? Well yeah. If you change the input or the functions of the brain. Can someone experience different qualia without changing their eyes, or what light enters them, or what computations their brain is performing? Well, one's experience is separate from another's; two peoples subjective abstract experience is not a literal thing to compare. Thus, try and see if -You- can change your conscious experience without changing sensory input or your brain's function. But, certainly you can't. Even if you literally blind yourself, is that the inverse qualia of seeing anything at all? Even if you genetically modify your nerves to cease all pain signals, or add a new part to your brain to create artificial never felt before qualia, what's the conclusion? If your eyes send your brain the signals it interprets as the color red, your brain interprets it as the color red. If your eyes send your brain any signal that it has previously interpreted and has functionally memorized that interpretation, it will functionally give you the same interpretation, irrelevant of the actual wavelength of light. Input or function can be swapped, but only then is experience changed. I don't know whether you agree yet that furthering this line of inquiry is utterly frivolous.

i love when Philosophy teachers tell you just to accept it for now...before we move on...

But what if the inversion of qualia concerns (not just colors) but functional perceptions ? What happens for instance if I see the dark where you see the light end viceversa ? I will call light what is my dark (in compliance) but will I be able to read and do the things that you can do (reading eg) when you are in the light and I'm in the dark (even though I call it light) ? Maybe I'm a bit confused....🤔🤔😂😂

What do you say about color vision test . can we know if someone is inverted qualia by color vision test ?

I have no idea what do you mean by pure and mixed colors. I was waiting for some kind clarification but you changed subject.

correct me if I am wrong but I believe this refutation of functionalism is comiting a shifting of the goal post fallacy. All functionalism asserts is that something is deserving of being called a functional kind if it performs a defined function. To say that a mental state is not a functional state because personal color vision could be inverted is like saying a car driving forwards is a vehicle whereas a car driving backwards is not a vehicle. This I believe is a shifting of the goal post because the definition of vehicle does not include HOW it travels from point A to point B only that it DOES, likewise the definition for mental state is "a state of mind a person has" such definition doesn't posit WHAT the state is only that it IS. Again I could be wrong or I just missed something, let me know what you think.

It's important to point out that color inversion cannot objectively be found if it's not caused by anything about their cones, thus the input data, but how these data are processed.

@ThomMurphy

Жыл бұрын

If it is caused by their cones, as in the 14 of 10,000, would their experience actually be any different from the majority? I mean, wouldn't their mental state and functional state actually be like the majority? At first, on the face of it, it may seem as if the mental state should be obviously different, as a different "goop" is functionality processing the information, but that doesn't nessisarily make it that the experience or data is any different. "Goop" can be differentiated, but that wouldn't nessisarily mean the information would be different or that the data or the experience would be any different. While the idea of these 14 in 10,000 may seem to be a strong argument against functionalism, I don't think it is at all. If I built to different widgets to measure temperature using 2 different types of "goop", and both had the same level of accuracy, granularity, etc., the fact that different "goop" was used could be observed, but the data (the function and experience) would me the same. The differences in "goop" used wouldn't impact the experience or data whatsoever. So would it be within those 14 of 10,000, right? Does the "how" actually matter in argument against functionalism? I'm I'm not saying functionalism would disregard the "how". I'm just wondering if functionalism requires different "hows" to mean different mental states.

Ok there is one root past this that I can think of. Different shades of light have different affects on our psychology and physiology in general. Someone experienced red as green and green as red would possibly have a measurable reaction to this. Seeing red all the time would add to stress. I don't know but for those with inverted vision. Does red that appears as green feel like green? And when around too much green that appears red, is it too hot for the eye?

The first 5 minutes!.......I get it already. I got it just by reading the title! Let's get to the point!!

This talk was before chatGPT obviously. And large language models erase Searle critique of functionalism

Even if we are not color inverted, our perception of colors, e.g. red, changes over time as we get older... we notice this only when we start wearing glasses. red becomes redder... But we never question if what we are seeing as red is really red, although the reds we saw in years are different forms of red (sharper, duller) .... And, we do not notice it... What I am really after is, is there any discussion connecting this argument to reality arguments, reality as being socially constructed etc. If anyone came across any readings please put it in the comments.

There is book called "Fribble." It is about kid who wants to call an ink pen a Fribble. This book is exactly what you are talking about. It is amazing what we "Title" things is in line with majority convention.

Could the pure/mixed colours test differentiate between biological males who have their photopigments swapped and biological males who don't have their photopigments swapped?

While admittedly our ‘normal’ color vision could be an inversion or mutation developed trough evolution and so we might not actually “know” whether we (all) are color inverted … when manner to know whether or not we see color in the same manner as everyone else is when we start driving cars … If we stop when we see “green” (“red” to us) … or vis versa … well then we “know” that we are actually seeing the colors differently than our minds previously associated with that respective “color” as we experienced it up until that point.

It is wired how many people thought about this when they were young, I find this interesting.

I thought about this when I was very young and was never able to find anyone that understood what I was talking about. In the end it doesn’t matter but explains why we all have different “minds” and therefore perceptions of reality. If you were me then I’d be you and everything would still be “normal”

@ConciousConstruct

11 ай бұрын

Me too, but I figured that we are all genetically basically clones of each other so it would be very unlikely. I’m with the scientists tho, it’s possible if they goop gets mixed up in just the right way, then it could be a different experience.

The answer to your question is inheritance / evolution. There is color blindness, various kinds of but these are 'defects' from the evolved ability to distinguish colors but no color inversion. Your colors are the same as ours.

If you use a paint program to make a pure red shape (RGB = 255,0,0) and a pure green shape (RGB = 0,255,0), then adjust the image to Black & White, then you will end up with two distinct colors of gray - a darker gray (RGB = 76,76,76) for red, and a lighter gray (RGB = 150,150,150) for green. So as long as the grayscale shading aligns when we both look at the color red, then we can agree that the colors we're seeing are the same. Right?

@REDPUMPERNICKEL

8 ай бұрын

No. One's experience of color is entirely a matter of interpretation (and can easily be changed (by LSD for instance)).

Are you writing backwards on a transparent screen (this would be very impressive). Or is there some image manipulation going on?

@thecarman3693

Жыл бұрын

His ring is on the wrong hand, as is his watch. Also his shirts are buttoned on the wrong side. This means all he's doing is writing properly on a glass which to a camera looking at him through the glass sees everything reversed. All then that needs to be done is to invert the image digitally from left to right and bingo ... proper script as seen by you and me. He's also seen writing with what looks to be his left hand ... less common than righthandedness.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this is easily identified. As soon as an individual with inverted qualia is asked to create something for someone else, their inversion would become obvious. This is due to the fact that you can't always (or almost ever) reverse engineer, or back-out the result of combining qualia. In other words, combinations of qualia are usually more than the sum of their parts, so a single inversion would not remain reliable as that qualia was propagated down the line of emergent qualia based on the initial, inverted one. Let's take paint mixing in kindergarten. In front of us, we have the typical 3 primary paint colors: red, blue, yellow. We both grab Yellow, and in this example, we know that yellow qualia are same for each of us. Now we each reach for red, which we would each describe as the color of a firetruck or a stop sign. We mix the colors and what appears in front of us would be described by both of us as the color of an orange. Technically, you're sensing blue, but you describe it as orange because that's what culture has done to you. Now we both take that resultant color and remix it back with yellow. I'm left with a color that I describe as yellow-orange, but you're somehow back (perceptually) to firetruck. We can do this for sweet, savory, sour, whatever. Mixing qualia doesn't have symmetrical, separable results. My guess is that's how we learn anyways. At one time, we actually don't know the difference between Wet and Cold, but once we feel cold, and sense or know of the presence of water, we get to wet. We can't back-compute our way out of wet by our brains simply misrepresenting the sense. A bucket of cold flour feels wet with eyes closed. Open your eyes, the sensation doesn't collapse back into wet. It just stays cold. It's obvious that we can trick our brains into seeing color/shadow that "isn't there". Optical illusions are commonplace and fun! But, when the brain has a chance to get a wider picture of reality and orient itself in space (color, taste, feel, etc), then we pretty quickly come to our senses, and can't reify the illusion that was so easy held when our reference frame was smaller. This seems too easy, so I'm guessing I'm wrong...

Help. I am color-inverted. I only see GRED and REEN

If everything increased in size wouldn't that make your vision corners smaller (like zooming into a picture)

A Functionalist might point out that there is a confusion going on, a misunderstanding of functionalism and between what is a brain state and mental state. One of the arguments for functionalism vs mind brain identity theory is that different brain states can (possibly) give rise to the same mental state. The possibility that creatures with completely different brain systems might still experience pain or other mental states. Mental sates are thus not uniquely realized, but are (can be) multiply realized in many different ways. Therefore, brain state=/=mental state. The whole inverted Qualia/Senses argument is for the functionalist not different mental states, but simply different brain sates leading to the same experience. If the idea is true that such a person would "experience" the switched Qualia/Senses by also switching the assorted experiences, for example with color also switching the experience "hot"/"cold" or "warm", then this would actually be a strong argument for this view. Functionally, the mental states of inverted senses are (completely) the same, so by definition of functionalism they are the same mental states. For the functionalist, they are just running on different brain states.

heh, every stoner I've ever met has had this thought at some point in time. I tend to think we likely all have the same (or similar) sensory experiences. I think this because it has been shown experimentally that certain colors invoke certain feelings in people. You could argue that these feelings/emotions that are felt in response to color are learned responses, but I don't think that argument holds water. For most of our evolution, we as a species had no capacity for language, and would therefore not learn what colors meant by being told what they were by others, instead, we would just inherit instinctually that certain colors meant certain things, and would therefore invoke certain feelings in us. Think about it this way. If a bird that only feeds on the nectar from a purple flower was color inverted, they wouldn't be able to just ask their fellow birds what "purple" is. As a result of this, theyd die because they'd be unable to get the nutrients they'd been evolutionarily programmed to need, and they'd never be able to pass on these inverted color genes. We just haven't had language as part of our evolutionary process long enough to overwrite this quality in ourselves.

@Sponge3905

Жыл бұрын

Nope... The bird would just have a different experience of the type of flower that it is drawn to feed on and would continue feeding just fine.

I have one question 3:37 in. If the two years old is told that what he sees as ”green” is red, as far as know the name of colour is atributed to the objects colour. Than what realy is red for most of us would still be red but called ”green”. The name of stuff i learned not something We are born with. (Okej You gave the ansver a minute later)