I think the first group dispersion was immensely tighter of a group. For most of us, every little advantage we can take matters. I think the feeling is about that extra movement from the comparatively chaotic whip and I get that. But it feels better to keep most of your balls in line. To each their own though, and that’s the beauty of this game.

this very well could make a difference to a very low or Pro level player. That's less than 10% of all golfers. Anyone who is above a 5 HC, isn't good enough to take advantage of this. Their skill level over-rides any bonus this may offer, IMO. I wouldn't spend the extra cost on an already expensive set of irons. Wonderful experiment AJ...now, I need to talk to you about adding weight to that long putter you built for me.

This is truly excellent content and I’d like to emphasize some points from the video as well as some counter arguments. 1. The fact that puring puts the orientation of the shaft to be stiffest at 12 oclock assumes this works better for every player, which is not always the case. Lets say you were fitted into a stiff flex, but puring will make it stiff+. That may not feel/perform as well for a given player. However, unless the shaft used during the fitting was pured, its impossible to know whether the pured orientation or “non-pured” orientation will work better. 2. Puring may not automatically mean better feel/performance for everyone, but in an iron set, it does standardize the flex across the whole set. For example, if a set is not pured, 7i may be in the “pured orientation” while 8i may be perpendicular. (Random chance) They would vary in how the club loads, creating inconsistency for the player. So whether pured is better or not is a separate question than does puring make your set more consistent. Former, it depends on the player. For the latter, it unquestionably does improve consistency. Whether thats worth it to the player is up to every person

LOVE seeing the numbers on a Pured vs non-Pured shafts. VERY informative as I decide if the $30 per shaft cost I was quoted is worth it.

@jimbo4311

11 ай бұрын

That’s not the comparison though

If I could summarize two questions other commenters made: 1. What about graphite shafts? They very possibly have a more pronounced spine than do steel shafts. 2. What about the whole set? A pured set may be more consistent from club to club. And perhaps a whole set of shafts that were 100% “wrong” from the puring recommendation would also be more consistent. It seems to me that consistency across the set is the reason to get shafts pured.

Nice video. I have noticed on club builds on tour trucks that they do not appear to pure shafts or frequency match shafts.

I had one Oban driver shaft with SST puring and would not pay for that extra again. But what I found out at iron shaft sets, that there are inconsistencies in between the single irons that can be minimized when I find the spine of each shaft and install them all with the spine in the same direction.

I went and got fitted at club champion. They pured all of my irons. I entered the building a 15 handicap I’m currently a 10.9. Go get fitted.

Need to focus on the standard deviations they are important, great vid

Interesting. How about graphite shafts?

Great video! I wonder if part of what you are feeling is that one shaft is slightly softer or firmer than the other because of manufacturing tolerances too.

@EFGMC

Жыл бұрын

Yes, totally. Also when you align the shaft in the way they do, the stiffest plane is set at 12 o'clock so the shaft feels stiffer in your initial downswing loading. This is one of the big issues I have with it, because it assumes that every golfer will prefer that feel vs a slightly softer feel during your transition from the top, and that is just plain wrong.

Any chance you can do a similar test with driver/wood shafts as well?

Your'e kind of obsessed with this aren't you? Your mobile clubmaker vid on this was so good! Really scientifically proved why it doesn't matter. I wonder if it mattered more when or if shafts are/were flimsier.

If your cleaning stuff out I’ll take the Golf Industries club gauge 😊

I have those irons. Maltby TE forged. They are the best value forged irons around.

@EFGMC

Жыл бұрын

They look so good, especially set up behind the ball.

@fit2yougolf926

Жыл бұрын

@@EFGMC Also a fan of the TE Forged, currently playing mine with Xcaliber Rapid Taper shafts. AJ, what shafts did you use for this test? Also, did you take steps to match them in terms of weight and CPM? If I missed this information, my apologies!

Objectively, the pured club was better on distance control. The unpured was better on left to right. Distance control is key to hitting ones number, and side to side can be mitigated by increase the loft of the head by a degree or two, shortening the club a bit and flattening the lie angle. All one has to do is look at the standard deviations of both clubs and see that the pured shaft is performing objectively more consistent.

I think the whole point of pureing or aligning steel shafts is to make a set feel all the same. I've had both pured and off the rack sets, and feelingvise pured set was uniform and as such a better set. With graphite shafts this aspect is propably stronger, altough nowadays nobody uses all same set woods.

@christopherodom8391

Жыл бұрын

In this case since he likes the non pure shaft because of feel, he could still pure the shaft and set each one 100 degrees of the pure line?

@djkim23

Жыл бұрын

@@christopherodom8391 exactly. Whether pured or perpendiculr to pured is better depends on the player, but puring does make the whole set more consistent. If AJ likes the perpendicular orientation better, he can purposely turn them 90 deg on every club of the set

Some might argue that if you could tell a difference between those two, wouldn't it be good to have a similar orientatiin in every club to have the similar feel in all clubs? 😉

@ghnelson745

Жыл бұрын

It would be interesting to pull the shafts and reverse the orientation to see if the performance would shift with the orientation. If it did then we might start to believe that there is something to be gained by the SST process. Anyway, it seems to me that to do this experiment in a way that might provide more meaningful data there would have to be a double blind setup and many more shafts and heads involved... Maybe use a robot to to hit the balls. LOL rather time consuming and expensive!

Shaft puring is a recognition that the performance of a shaft isn't consistent in different directions. Assuming this is true to any detectable level, it could make a difference. But it's a QA issue - what tolerance is applied to flex in general? I'm more worried about tolerance there than in a direction.

@MichealBacon

Жыл бұрын

Exactly. Golf is a game of repeatability and being consistent

I think there is still an argument for puring. Even though one wasn’t “better” than the other there was a difference. So just for the sake of consistency throughout the set, they should all be pure or all be off pure.

So I went to have a fitting and they added SST Pure for 6 clubs at $40 per shaft, I then took the specs and ordered the same clubs from the manufacturer without SST Pure and paid just a little over 1/2 of what they wanted for the irons!

@EFGMC

Жыл бұрын

Yep. That sounds right on the pricing.

Lord knows I have way bigger issues in my swing to blame puring. My impression is that it's more of a thing in longer woods/driver graphite shafts. At the same time, modern shafts are so much more consistent that the stuff in 90s.

I think there are some things to note, this is his assessment after 20 shots. Analysis at a fundamental level, but admittedly nuanced and thoughtful, that he is able to derive his thoughts on. I think it should also be noted that his videos run this vein of “buyer beware” and myth busting. SST pure does not a great golfer make. I think the real point here is invest in quality components, build or have them built well, and play/practice.

Thanks a bunch for your dead honest review. Additionally, I had a set of Ping 1210 irons w XP 95 reg shafts purrs a couple of years ago . It was more experimental as I was hitting them pretty well to begin with. But being an anal club nut I wanted to give it a try and see for myself what the benefits of shaft purring are. To say I was disappointed would be an understatement. The shafts played much stiffer to the point that the iron set was unusable for me. Horrible. Ended up trading them in for a new set as the set was now dead to me.

I'm not sold on "pure-ing ". I've had clubs that were pured and clubs that weren't. But I do think a better test would be where the human variable is removed. Good players have the ability to make really minor adjustments with every swing. With an "Iron Byron" you could hit 1000 shots with each club and get a much more reliable data set. I would assume the company selling the pureing procedure would have used such data to justify the cost and need for the service.

@EFGMC

Жыл бұрын

I go the other direction with this. I think you can totally build a club to get better results out of a non human tester. The question is how does it work with the human variable. If we only used a robot, there would be no need for different shafts, heads, etc. The importance of any shaft, is less about the technical specifics on that shaft, and more about how those attributes influence the golfer's swing and ball flight.

Is that club speed 83 or 87?

I didn't know you could pure steel shafts since they don't have a spine like graphite.

@EFGMC

Жыл бұрын

Steel can very much have a spine, the seam where the steel roll is joined together. However modern manufacturing has done a good job of minimizing it, just as they have minimized the layering buildup with carbon fiber shafts.

What do you mean? Based on your numbers your horizontal dispersion was 400% better with the aligned shaft while your distance dispersion was 50% better with the unaligned shaft . idk about you but a 400% improvement in horizontal dispersion seems like a much better option then a 50% better distance dispersion. i would gladly pay for puring if it meant a 400% better horizontal dispersion.

Compare a cheap Apollo shaft to a more expensive one

Not going to dispute your 'feels' or your 'opinion' about the benefit - I will comment on the Statistics being a Statistician myself. If you want to go down the rabbit hole of Statistics being the measure of whether something is worth it, as opposed to feel & opinion, let's look at doing the Stats in a way that at least the Stats give real data (you can then choose to use them or not). Let's start with the FACT that no matter what you do with each of the 2 clubs to make them the same, they are NOT the same - so you can't really CONTROL this - you have to accept it and then try and still do measurements to see if Statistically, you can measure anything with enough precision that it can be at least useful. I know you likely won't want to do this (too much time for likely very little benefit), but what you want to really analyze is whether a Pured vs non-Pured data set is more or less consistent - that is, you want to look at the Statistics applied to MULTIPLE runs on the same iron and compare these stats against MULTIPLE runs conducted on the other iron - i.e. you want to do 12 Sets of 12 Hits with each club and then run the Standard Deviation Calculations on the Averages of the 12 Runs and the compare these Standard Deviations against the other club (I say 12 because 12 is where you get 85% of the benefit of the data without having to do a lot more to get the last 15%). We want to compare the Standard Deviations of the Averages NOT the Standard Deviations of each club against the other club. If Puring is doing anything, which I have no idea, then it should show up in these Standard Deviations of the Averages (they should be lower) - but we NEED to see this data (i.e. the Standard Deviation of the Averages against each other) - and NOT just comparing the Standard Deviations of each club against the other. This will allow you to CONTROL for the FACT that you like how one club feels versus the other but then still get REAL Data of whether Puring is making the other club, which you don't like in this situation, still produce TIGHTER Standard Deviations of its multiple runs vs your preferred feeling club's multiple runs. Finally, and what you really need to do is not only this, but then build another 2 clubs, let's say 5 irons, with same shaft and heads as the 'other' clubs, and then do the tests again, (but make sure to Pure the one club but also not only NOT Pure the other club - but place it in a different orientation so that not only are they not Pured, they are also randomly not Pured). It is this final Data, if you could do Correlation/Covariance stats, or just do the best you can do, to see if Puring a SET of Clubs, and doing Standard Deviation Calculations on the Averages you do for each iron - then produce a lower OVERALL standard deviation. As you can see, this would require a huge amount of work - which if I was someone who was selling these Puring Machines I would have the Data done because this would be paramount for me to able to close the sale of such a machine - here is the data, Standard Deviations done on the Standard Deviations, done across a SET OF IRON, and data showing concretely that it LOWERS the Overall Global Set Of Irons Variance. If you can't do all that, then none of the stats anyone can produce is anything but completely worthless - and that is why Stats are so easy to use to create BS. I say this as an actual Statistician with a real Degree in Mathematics - there is also zero data presented at any time, even by Scientists and Engineers, that I remotely believe because I know that while they think they are applying good practices in their Statistics, almost none of it would hold up to Mathematic scrutiny. If a client had the money and they are chasing a Plus Handicap or playing Tournament Golf, they should pay for Puring in my opinion because at least it is an attempt to aid in consistency. If they are a recreation golfer, then save your money - your own personal Standard Deviation is likely on the order or 3-magnitudes higher than any benefit to Puring so it will NEVER statistically be found in the data - ever - like the end of the Universe time ever. Nice video

@EFGMC

Жыл бұрын

Paul, I think I will need to fly you in to supervise if I ever try and redo this video! #Abovemypaygrade

@wallstreetoneil

Жыл бұрын

@@EFGMC I can save you time & state that having modeled data my entire adult life, while also being an avid golfer, and a person who has deeply looked at some of Mygolfspys' data & modeled it myself, the fact that their machine hitting a ball test exposed how bad golfball consistency is, the variance in balls alone would obscure any data on shaft orientation - that data was truly shocking.

@Big-Crow

Жыл бұрын

@@EFGMC I’m not reading all that… what’s the cliff notes

@bigbluemsp

Жыл бұрын

@@Big-Crow exactly

@vinnienaidu

Жыл бұрын

​@@wallstreetoneil I think after writing your initial comments and then this response, you're basically concluding yourself that it's nay impossible to conduct a test to a high scientific level to satisfy a mathematician /scientist. Other than the above you've stated, the biggest and obvious factor which will be inconsistent is someone's swing and delivery - this is something you can't have as a "control" in your experiment and if you use a robot then it defeats the purpose as most players bring in the objection "that we're not robots". Your comments are interesting and I do wonder if having a data set 10x the size of what AJ did above would make any huge difference as I was also comparing the standard deviations of the two when viewing. I suppose we all take what we want from it, to me, this unscientific little video was of great value and help. Thank you AJ !!

I had my Irons pured then had new shafts installed and not pured. There was zero difference in strike, feel, distance, spin, and dispersion for me. Not to mention it's $30 per club to pure

@derbscott2687

9 ай бұрын

I purchased some new Pings but didn’t have the shafts pured…the club that I was betting fitted with was pured…when I got my new clubs…I was able to tell the difference between the pured club that I was fitted with than the umpured clubs that I got…the feeling that I have with the new clubs didn’t have the same feeling I was getting with the club (pured) that I was being fit with…I went to check how much I would’ve to pay to pure my new clubs was crazy…Club Champion were I purchased the clubs want $45 per club…I wish I could find a place that does puring for $30…

I thought shaft pureing was more about finding impurity’s or errors in the shaft. So like a benchmark test to see if a shaft is straight or doesn’t have any micro cracks you just can’t see with an untrained eye. I know TXG have said they have to throw out a lot of steel shafts that they have pured because they come back with with some significant errors.

I think it can make a difference but.... Everyone has a different delivery. I would guess that SST pure would change shaft deflection in a small way. I would think some deliveries would prefer SST and some wouldn't. I would guess it would change stiffness slightly too. If a shaft is a little soft SST may help. Same with too stiff and no SST. Just my opinion. I wonder if that's why some people love certain irons and hate others? Some are in the SST line and some aren't??

Puring helps tremendously. Especially with drivers. If you drive it anywhere above 100 mph, you can definitely tell the difference, 10-15 yards longer distance and tighter dispersion.

@EFGMC

9 ай бұрын

Show me proof.

If you want to do this in a statistically meaningful way you need to hit 100 balls with each club (ideally alternating clubs and using the same ball) and then compare the standard deviations of the dispersions without excluding any shots. I tested my putters on Saturday and after 100 putts with each there was not a p95 significance difference between putting with my driver and putting with my best scoring real putter.

@vinnienaidu

Жыл бұрын

@Phil Willoughby I am floored with this comment - particularly the latter part 😂 Probably because you're using a Scotty? Haha!

Shaft pureing is a well executed marketing hoax. Production tolerances with modern day shaft manufacturers are so tight, every shaft you buy is basically perfectly round.

@MichealBacon

Жыл бұрын

This couldn't more further from the truth. EVERY iron shaft has a natural bend profile and a spine. How do think iron shafts are manufactured? In a tube machine? lol They're made from FLAT steel then rolled and welded.

This is your second or third video regarding this technique, and to me you appear desperate to prove PURing has zero benefit. In a previous video you went to a golf range with no ball flight/data recording equipment and handed two clubs to people to try and asked how they "feel". That was just laughable, AJ, and quite frankly a horrible attempt at discrediting this process. Then you go on to make a video to support your opinion that FLOing has no benefit either. But once again, you conveniently leave out the fact that a shaft flexes TWICE in the total arc of the swing. But in your slo mo presentation you only show one deflection. One can plainly see that the shaft is clearly beginning to deflect but you cut out the video before the shaft returns and suggest incorrectly that there is no deflection based on half a swing. A club shaft deflects twice. And now this one where the data does in fact show improvement with the PUR'd shaft but you just cant seem to accept it by suggesting you like the "feel" of the other shaft. What a joke. It's like you don't want to accept it. You just proved it is beneficial. There's decades of data and approximately 25,000 to 30,000 fittings that suggest otherwise to your golf range "test" and this one. Why would you skew the data? It's so obvious, I'm disappointed to say the least.