According to determinists, God can ordain evil but can't ordain free will.

@lizicadumitru9683

4 жыл бұрын

Maybe they think free will negates sovereignty..?

@dianawilliams6700

4 жыл бұрын

@@lizicadumitru9683 perhaps. I'd think a person would come to see the error of their thinking if their definition of sovereignty negates God's Holiness... "Be holy, for I am Holy"

@lizicadumitru9683

4 жыл бұрын

@@dianawilliams6700 Indeed. As they should understand that free will creatures don't offend the sovereignty of God.

@lizicadumitru9683

3 жыл бұрын

@HillDueceua Agreed, just follow Christ and his teachings - the end.

@lizicadumitru9683

3 жыл бұрын

@HillDueceua I'm quite sure calvinists feel they follow Christ and his teachings, no?

Very grateful to Dr Flowers, thanks for this so much. I am born an English guy, who grew up under the oppression of the South African Apartheid. I am not sure if he knows, but the ideas of Apartheid were generated by a so called missionary with Calvinist ideology, Daniel Malan. , or nationalistic Afrikaner Calvinism. The idea that that the Afrikaner was somehow chosen, that almost "inbred pride", is like a black cloud on the rest of those living here, who are not Afrikaans or chosen, yes it still even lingers a bit, these many years later, seeing as the doctrine has not really been clearly tackled as wrong, and the rejection of the non elect, { but in Gods eyes chosen) is still felt. . I listened to the beginning of your message about tolerance.. But in South Africa, if you do not aggressively refuse this ideology based very closely to Calvinism, [ actually almost a mirror image of Geneva and Calvin's Marriage of State and God} you will be overrun by it. I have been too harsh on Calvinists as you say, and treated the ideology like a cult, simply because they swop Gospel for Calvin, they have a leader who cannot be questioned, only interpreted. If given the chance they would change the bible and the meaning of at least 30 clear words. It is hard for me not to resist this evil thing, but I do think there are many, as you say that simply are trying to grapple with God and are genuine. But please keep up the good fight, and realize that your resistance has an effect on some who feel this misrepresentation of God more heavily, even many years after Apartheid has ended. For those who follow the powers properly, the marriage of the secret society called the broederbond and Malan, was a way for the Gnostics to keep control of the Gold. This part of the world is an amazing history case study for how evil cooperates in its objective, Even to the Nazis trying their experiment with Goebbels Son and Dr fisher in German South West Africa. But yup, Calvinism was definitely in the mix, Lord forgive them.

@darylspanneberg2807

6 жыл бұрын

Hey Grant, I am from South Africa as well and I have been thoroughly soaking in the information from Dr. Flowers and Dr. Pritchette. I am from Cape Town so I can concur with the pangs and pains of Apartheid, being a person of colour. Thanks for a giving me a historic frame work from DF Malan ...

@elizabethregister

6 жыл бұрын

I believe if we dug a bit, the United States may have had this influence on the thought here of the doctrine of Manifest Destiny.

@granthollandvideos

6 жыл бұрын

No problem, Jesus has led you to these guys. Calvin ran a police state in Geneva much like the Afrikaner tried to do, and yup can you believe the architect of the Apartheid was a reformed ordained Dutch reformed minister. Mind boggling. In Geneva Calvin ran a police state, literally heads being chopped off and people burning at the steak. The story of Sevetus, one of Calvin's friends, ( who seemed mentally challenged and was full of strange ravings) will literally drive you to tears, Calvin burned him with his book clutched to his chest. Most Calvinists will show their allegiance and to whom they belong, by still trying to justify this mans fruit, even the horror of Geneva., Much like we have today in SA, many not only tolerate what was done but approve of it, with religious overtones. Calvin was giddy with excitement having trapped this man in Geneva, and instructed the court on how to burn him. He was proud of his actions till the day he died. Don't let these guys fool you with long treaties and prayers and Greek and Hebrew learning, they truly have missed the ship. . Think for a second that they shut the door literally stronger than the Pharisee, why? they preach that it is impossible for a man to choose with the heart Jesus. Yet when one is convicted of sin, the last thing he will think is that he is elect, he will be crawling in humiliation and conviction and woe, yet wanting Jesus who came on the cross, Even though he was Lord, he chose to come as a suffering servant to offer himself to the world, even though they despise and reject him. And it is through the man side of the God Man Jesus which we receive our intercession in heaven to the father. Why ? precisely that his sovereign power may be kept in tact, and still offer himself and still as Paul shows be rejected, stoned and persecuted. Think for a minute about the condemned to hell Pharisees who crucified him. They certainly were not "chosen", yet Jesus offers them all he has, and pleads with the father to forgive them. And think of Stephen, who follows his masters leading, he prays for forgiveness for the ones the Lord has just used him to condemn. This attitude we must have, even for the hardened Calvinist. He truly died for all, and the cross certainly drew all men to God, so that all may believe and receive or reject and be condemned. Remember when dealing with these guys that they do not believe they can accept Jesus when they are a sinner, so you must start from a point of witness. They seek an extra invisible occultist step between God offering and them receiving. This seeking of a strange awakening (each one having a different view of what that is, and how far they are redeemed before being redeemed) before salvation, renders them inert and their hearts passive. The will has no power at all for redemption, yet the nature of God wants man to choose with the heart, he continually draws, persuades and pleads in the street with man, so he may give salvation to those who believe. Bless you and keep the light shining.

@jonathandavid9720

5 жыл бұрын

Even the Southern Baptists have had their race-related issues in the 19th century, when the pulpits compromised to accommodate slavery. Theological positions will always face issues of the times and social-political-economic factors. Hopefully we all learn from our congregational and individual failures to hold up scriptural principles and practices.

@pcwalter7567

4 жыл бұрын

I am also a South African and can attest that Apartheid was utterly demonic. I always wondered why people would think out such a mentally/morally deprived philosophy and it left me gasping for air trying to find a suitable foundation this thing had to start upon. And along comes reformed Theology. Thanks for the clarity. There is this utter sickness that enters into the heart of a man holding on to a doctrine like Calvanism. The sickness is most certainly pride. And it is written that God resists the proud. We still have that deprived mindset running around here and there. It is my mission to get this cancer out of society. The gospel is the Light of men. We would be wise to represent it clearly. (pardon my harsh rhetoric, I see clearly what false doctrine has done to a country)

Most Calvinists have invested so much intellectual stock in their beliefs, and either have a cult following they can't lose or don't have a following but have aggressively pushed their beliefs to everyone around them, that even if they did realize they were wrong they can't turn back anymore. A simple version of this is a fighting couple, and the husband comes to the realization 15 minutes into the fight that "oh crap, I do have this wrong, what now?" But instead of stating he is wrong and conceding, he continues on as he has already committed to WINNING the argument, and not to finding and agreeing on the correct answer.

@MyRoBeRtBaKeR

9 ай бұрын

True, but not limited to Calvinism but also women Pastors and even tithes. They are so deep in these false doctrinal teachings that they can't turn away.

Can you play this intro song/jingle every time you start the program Dr. Flowers?

David hiding in Keilah is 1 Samuel 23. Thank you for referencing this. This is a passage I use to argue counterfactuals.

Leighton said he was unaware of those that teach a certain brand of foreknowledge/election: The Corridor of Time Foreknowledge view. The closest I've seen to this view are some Lutheran authors. There was a major Calvinist controversy that was started by the founder of the LCMS (Walther of the Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod) in the early 1870s. He challenged the commonly held Lutheran view of Intuitu Fidei (foreseen faith). This controversy was still going into the 1920s. There were two major responses in book form to Walther: "The Error of Modern Missouri" [STELLHORN & SCHMIDT et al] and "Election and Conversion" by Keyser. Both of these books are available at Internet Archive. Interestingly Lenski, the great Lutheran commentator, was a translator of "The Error of Modern Missouri" from German into English. Lenski supports the foreseen faith view of election in his commentary on Romans 8, but that is not all he has to say about election. For instance, his comments on the parable of the wedding feast in Matthew 22 (pages 847 and following) that support a universal general call/conditional election view that he ties into eternity past. Lenski would need to be read and studied in each of the major NT passages on election to fully appreciate his views on election/foreknowledge.

@lindajohnson4204

3 жыл бұрын

God doesn't need to "peer down the corridors of time". Jesus said that "Abraham rejoiced to see my day", and "before Abraham was, I AM". God must have shown Abraham a revelation of Jesus's day, but was only able to do so, because He had already seen it. Or perhaps Jesus was referring to the Mount of Transfiguration. But God "knows all things", including "the end from the beginning". It shouldn't be so hard to realize that God can incorporate His knowledge of the _real_ future, into what He does in preparation for it. We don't see how He could know what hasn't happened yet, but the Bible tells us that He can. What He is willing to do could not include violating the will of men to arrange the outcome He desires. If God were to force the wills of human beings, then judge them guilty for what He had determined, it would be worse that a little capricious in pursuit of vainglory. It would undermine the righteousness of His judgment. It would undermine the truth of all conscience and conviction; the Holy Spirit wouldn't convict of any but that which is absolutely true. God would not undermine His truth or His righteousness for a mere show of power. He would never glory in, nor be glorified by, anything that was dishonest.

Thanks for explaining this!

If a great evil is for good men to do nothing, and if I were to have knowledge of a horrible thing to happen and having the ability to prevented choose not to, what does this make me? It makes me having thoughts that are higher than everyone else’s, doesn’t it? Because that seems to be the excuse that people make about the problem of God having the ability to prevent an atrocity and yet allowing it to happen.

@kimberleerivera1483

3 жыл бұрын

That is an excellent point! Thank you so very much! Reminds me of what Dietrich Bonhoffer said...to see evil and do nothing to stop it, is evil. (Paraphrased)

Dislikes by people that haven’t even listened to the whole episode

Great video thanks

I just don’t see how you would get around God determining everything that comes to pass. If God knows everything, including everything about you, before you were born, and still created you, did He create you with a purpose in mind or no? God doesn’t take in knowledge if He is omniscient.

@TimothyFish

5 жыл бұрын

I think we can say that God knows everything that will happen, but because the Bible says we have choice and we are responsible for that choice we must reject any understanding of God that has him putting things in action in such a way that we do not have a choice. If God is limited to being able to manipulate the world event by event then determinism seems to be a given. But do we have reason to believe that God is unable to create free moral creatures?

@coreylapinas1000

Жыл бұрын

Can God change what he decrees or is fate God?

If God's omniscience extends even to the free will choices of mankind, then God must foreknow who will go to heaven or hell! Therefore interpretations of various passages saying we are predestined or ordained etc to Salvation or not, shouldn't be a problem?

My favorite parts of this video are when RC speaks.

Great video!!👏👏

Calvinists sometimes disagree with each other. Shocking.

I used to totally understand what MacArthur was saying. But now that God has led me out of Calvinism it boggles my mind what he is saying! It's incoherent!

Can you get the song remix you have in the intro somewhere?

@mateusek11

6 жыл бұрын

stefan a yes plz

My question is how would they know if they aren't the ones God preordained that they believe what they see as God's predetermined will?

Sproul says: "You can DISTINGUISH between the will and mind of God but you cannot SEPARATE them." If you cannot SEPARATE two things then you cannot DISTINGUISH between them either. It is illogical.

@zacharybaker695

4 жыл бұрын

To use a rough analogy. Can you distinguish between a cars engine and transmission? Yes you can. And yet they are inseparable if the car intends to fulfill its purpose. Which is to transport. Not a perfect analogy. But that's how I see it.

Great presentation Leighton. Very engaging and thorough. God bless.

Is Dr. Flowers friends with John MacArthur? He seems to speak about him a lot in several videos I have watched on Soiteriology101. I would be curious to know if they have a friendship or a relationship and to understand how John MacArthur feels about Dr. Flowers targeting his theology and picking it apart the way he does. Can anyone who knows comment on this for me?

@silaschambers7413

2 жыл бұрын

Regardless of whether or not Flowers knows MacArthur on a personal level does not disavow what he is saying.

@MONEYwithMARKALBERT

2 жыл бұрын

@@silaschambers7413 My question was more rhetorical. A friend doesn't constantly attach another friend on the internet as Dr. Flowers does to John MacArthur.

@debbieelliott8474

2 жыл бұрын

He doesn’t attack the person, he is critiquing his theology.

@MONEYwithMARKALBERT

2 жыл бұрын

@@debbieelliott8474 He could just teach his theology. It appears that he is using MacArthur’s popularity to grow his following. Perhaps there are motives beyond theology happening?

@debbieelliott8474

2 жыл бұрын

I think if you listen to Leighton Flowers enough you will see he is very genuine. This is not his whole life, he does this in his “extra” (if he has any) time and I am so thankful he does! That is what his site is all about, teaching the false claims of Calvinism. John MacArthur happens to be a well known Calvinist, along with John Piper and RC Sproul so it stands to reason he would speak on them often, they are the ones a lot of people listen to. 🤷‍♀️

As I see it.....When God predestines evil in man, God is mercifully exposing the moral emptiness of His creation, and thus emphasising the need for forgiveness through the cross.

I would disagree with God not possibly knowing the free will choices of man in Open Theism, rather he knows everything that is possible and knows what to do if one chooses any number of paths at any given moment. Open Theists will make it clear that free moral choices are open and therefore do not need to be known that it will definitely happen, because the future does not currently exist and does not take away omniscience because everything that can be known is known. Because if you read Isaiah 5:1-5 God speaking makes it clear he had failed expectations and God has also commanded not to lie of which God made it clear to know and understand His precepts and follow them. So to say He doesnt mean what he says and says what he doesnt mean gets into some serious misunderstandings in reflection when God says such things.

@inchristislife3

4 жыл бұрын

So in a nutshell non-moralistic will can be moved in a man or woman to do what God desires. Free moral will however is chosen by the individual and can be influenced to decide but it is upon the person to make such actions. It is not entirely known what determinate actions will be done with a certainty unless out of His omniscience He only sees that the free moral agent will only choose one path when put in that situation. Not because the future is foreseen, rather because with every iota of possible knowledge available the only choice the person in front of Him will make is the one he calls out to them they will make before they make it, ex. Peter and his denial. However, in the case of Jonah God commands Jonah to preach repentance even though He declared before hand they will perish without any caveat. Yet, in the act of seeing them repent He changed His mind of the judgement He was to pour out. Nowhere do we see in scripture God exists out of time rather He knows what is in mens hearts and knows by what He sees and in every possible choice a man can make and can have with assurance or not what they will morally choose. That is why God truly expresses grief and joy when men choose evil or good, because he sees presently and the prophets show the heart of God and His true in time feelings about it and occassionaly uses language like "it didnt even come into to my mind that you would do this," in reference to burning their children alive for Ba'al, yet before he said that He did have Moses write in the law against such an act. Or "it repenteth me that I made Saul king," and "did you not know that God was going to make an everlasting kingdom from you but because of your sin He is taking it away and giving it to another." 1 Samuel 13:13 Only an Open Theist I contest can answer this without changing the very words. God had every intention on making Saul king and then having and everlasting dynasty, however because Saul sinned God was truly upset and even changed His mind,(which requires a present action to do so) and so he did and had David anointed to be the new king and an everlasting dynasty was established through David when it was originally intended by God for Saul, yet He changed His mind. An Open Theist doesnt need to change anything for indeed God meant what He said. Because if by exhaustive foreknowledge He saw this event this day then God could express no genuine grief and desire to have never made Saul king if indeed He knew nothing else could happen but this. My major contention is this in short. When God speaks, either He means what He says and says what He means. Or He says what doesnt mean, and means what He doesnt say. In Isaiah where God says I will prove to you that I am God by telling what I will do before it happens and bring it to pass. He doesnt say that I will tell what will happened before it happens because I see it, rather he is in the ultimate position to declare what will happen before it happens because he is able to with his power to bring it to pass. Not an issue of knowledge in proving He is God in Isaiah, rather it is in His Omnipotence He brings to pass what He declares He will do. One verse that says that God exists outside of time and I will recant my view. However, it is in pursuing this very thing that I was convinced Open Theism is true. I believed in the popular view of Omnipresence and concluded if God exists outside of time in the past then my prayers can can change things in past. So I prayed for months against Nazi Germany and the horrors they did, because if prayer is not limited in the God who can answer why not. Then God showed me how that those prayers cannot change what has occurred because He has set aside a date to judge the world in righteousness.

Me. Flowers you defined heretical as striving to divide. That is not the definition of heretical. In order for something to be heretical there has to be some standard to hold things up against. No Protestant can claim any beliefs as heretical because Sola Scriptura makes every individual their own authority without any way to define the Truth of Christianity. This is why we need ONE CHURCH and ONE AUTHORITY. It is the sin of Pride that men think they can define what the Word of God is on their own.

Want to understand God? The Fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom. What we need to know is he is the Creator of all things. We don’t have to know or understand how. It seems to me that to continue looking for “how” he does things is to doubt that his is the Master of all.

@fredarroyo7429

2 жыл бұрын

How?

I dont see anything wrong with 'foreseen faith', except God "peering down the corridors of time". God doesn't have to peer down the corridors of time; He is already there. Jesus not only said "Before Abraham was, I am", in such a way that they knew He was claiming to be God, but He said that Abraham was glad to "see" His day. Abraham was not omniscient; he couldn't peer down the corridors of time. He could only see Jesus's day because God showed him, or even if he only saw it figuratively, God had to make him see it that way. He didnt just get a projection of what Jesus's day would be; he saw it.

We all believe, regardless.of the particular theological camp we are slotted into , in the omniscience of God, do we not? The continual insistence on this so-called "corridor of time" argument is forgetting the fact that God's knowledge and understanding is infinite (Psa 147:5) and non-cumulative (Psa 139:1-4) in direct contrast to ours which is finite and cumulative. Interestingly enough, it is said of Jesus, in the days of His flesh, that He "increased in wisdom" Perhaps this was part of the Kenosis in identifying with us in our finiteness. Since nothing can be added to God's knowledge that he doesn't already know He doesn't have to look down any corridor of time. Time itself is even a part of His creation, so what He knew in eternity past He also will continue to know in eternity future. Time has bearing upon what He knows for He has always known the totality of everything there is to know irregardless of any time factor. If He had to look down some corridor of time to determine any of His purposes then His knowledge would be incomplete and it could not be said that He was, is and always will be Omniscient. Just as one example of God's foreknowledge, when God was about to rain fire and brimstone on Sodom and Gomorrah we read: "And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do; Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all nations of the earh shall be blessed in him? For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him." (Gen 18:7).

Sorry. But I don’t see why anyone brings God down to human understanding on this issue. Calvinists say that logically God can’t know actions of free people. But I would argue that logically God can’t create something out of nothing. Why don’t we tell God he can’t logically make a drop of dew out of nothing.

Where can I get the intro????

@DrJSakr

6 жыл бұрын

I don't believe you can. It's only available by listening to Dr Flowers videos. Potentially for copywriter purposes.

@tessw9744

6 жыл бұрын

DaBearsManiac The original version is by Nico & Vinz, "Am I wrong?".......but I have no idea where he got the Calvinist version....custom made, maybe?

@20july1944

6 жыл бұрын

Go Bears!

I don't feel it is valid to define "determinism" as by definition negating the libertarian free will of man? If something is "determined" then it simply has to happen, right? If God has foreknowledge of "everything" (which most don't see a conflict with complete freedom of choice) then "everything" is fixed and unchangeable (predestined to happen!) If this is not true (regardless of human will) then God did not know all things future? It seems to me we have allowed a Calvinistic meaning of the words "determined" and "predestined" etc to define our use of these words?

@fredarroyo7429

2 жыл бұрын

You are engagin in a fatalist fallacy

No, it doesn't.

Leighton, I'm disappointed to see you begin to lose your humble spirit. It's either that, or you have complete disdain for open theism. Toward the end of this video, you state that debates like the Will Duffy vs Matt Slick debate are "so unnecessary", basically, because you disagree with both sides. I'm willing to bet that when you were a calvinist, you had never imagined that you were so wrong. Please listen to Will Duffy's opening statement again. I'd love to see you post a video analyzing it and refuting it point by point.

Numerous throughout this video Leighton constantly demonstrates his presupposition that Calvinism simply cannot be true since it diminishes the moral character of God. This was basically his main point and emphasis in the video. This assumption based on his own personal opinion and never found anywhere in the Bible. The Bible contradicts this automatic assumption by brother Leighton

@lizicadumitru9683

4 жыл бұрын

Does God tempt peoole to evil?

I sure wish that these intelligent brothers would not non-stop proof text their abstract ideas, truly, an abuse of Scripture.

What is the Calvinist's excuse for not understanding Einstein's theory of general relativity over 100 years after he presented it first in 1915? There is no distinction between space and time, and time only appears linear when viewed from inside the 4 dimensional continuum we exist in. God is not constrained by speed, matter, or gravity... God has no time, He is eternal. He created spacetime, and He exists outside of it entirely. God knows what will happen in our future because He sees past, present, and future simultaneously.

Before or Prior to any decrees and foreordaining by God, did God know for certain that I would exist and write this ? If He is All Knowing, then the answer would be Yes. Therefore, I had to exist and I had to write this. Namely, because God always knew I would exist and write this. Determinism logically follows Omniscience. Both God and man are fated to do whatever God’s “All Knowingness” states that God and man will do.

@trebmaster

4 жыл бұрын

This presupposes a human idea of linear time. Mathematicians don't even presuppose this but confirm the opposite: the existence of our multiple dimensions of time mean there are other possible timelines. Just as train tracks can shift to other tracks, linear time experienced by us can shift, but we only see what has happened until what is "now", so it all looks linear anyway from our perspective. If God transcends time, then He can certainly transcend it in the linear sense if needed (or is God limited by linear time and our own dimensions of understanding?) and know all possible ends and all things that could change unto those desired ends. Then resultingly, this assertion of linear time predeterminism does not hold. God is able to decree things by making sure that whatever critical points are necessary to achieve what He has proclaimed are covered by His divine intervention, yet this does not require Him to decree everything to the last minute detail and can still let the non-critical variations in the timeline be free rather than fully constrained, yet the critical points are fixed because His Word is Truth. We are able to live in a hybrid deterministic and libertarian free will world because time is not, in reality, truly linear. God's love for us and our non-robotic love for Him still win out, and so does God's absolutely immutable Word of His Power that cannot be thwarted, and so does God's all-wise nature. To sum up the above, God is so powerful and wise that he does not need to control all of the "whats" but the "what ifs" that are critical to fulfilling what His Divine Word had decreed and what He has made known. This is not *necessarily* true and there are other views, but it must be allowed as a tenable explanation until thoroughly discredited, and it does cast out the unnecessary assumptions in the pure deterministic view of Calvinism that is not warranted by scripture but is only warranted by our presuppositions of linear time.

@kimberleerivera1483

3 жыл бұрын

You are forgetting that our sovereign GOD has given you free will to do so.

@kimberleerivera1483

3 жыл бұрын

Glory To GOD!!! Thank you for an excellent comment!

@fredarroyo7429

2 жыл бұрын

All knowingness doesnt state it doesnt establish. It knows whats eatablished

Poor weak God can’t do this or that. You can say that about anything. What kind of argument is that?

Omniscience requiring determinism leads me to think about the illusionist who sets up a trick so that it appears they know some information or can read someone's mind and all they have done is operate off of what they have set up. That is not knowledge as much as it is memory.

Dr. Flowers, I love you're ministry but by using guilt by association, you are doing to open theists what calvinists do to non calvinists when they deem us palagians. Aside from that, it's​ really not a biblical argument to say that God must know future free will actions because that's what is "impressive". You've also appealed to mystery here in implying that no one knows how God can just know, by a divine attribute, what free will beings will do; saying that we just cannot understand how God can be inside of time and outside of time. Open theists are not "strange bedfellows" with calvinists, as you've quoted WLG as saying. We champion true free will above all others and do not diminish God in the process. The same way that you correctly say that traditionalists do not diminish God by asserting that in God's "sovereignty" He chose not to micro manage everything, we say that in giving free will, God, in His sovereignty, decided not to know what doesn't yet exist unless and until He decrees it, and makes it happen. We all call that "prophecy". God does nothing without first declaring it to His prophets. God hasn't declared everything and if God exhaustively knows future free will actions, then everything that happens is prophecy......think about it.

@JohnQPublic11

6 жыл бұрын

My thoughts exactly.

@evanu6579

6 жыл бұрын

contemplate I read your response from a few weeks ago about the parables in Luke 15 being about Gentiles coming in and your view on Ephesians 1. They’ve certainly got me doing some research. (Just wanted you to know that you didn’t waste your time responding to me). This discussion of open theism has been a struggle for me. I see how one can hold to it. There are many verses that support the idea that God tests man to see if they will be faithful. I’m undecided on this issue because of certain passages. Maybe you can be of help. Jhn 21: 18 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not. 19 This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me. Did God cause the death and the means of Peter’s death ? 1Tim 4: 1 ¶ Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Does God cause some times depart from the faith? These are the two main passages that make me doubt open theism. Either God knew these things would happen, or He caused them. Unless you have a different explanation. Look forward to hearing from you.

@contemplate-Matt.G

6 жыл бұрын

Evan, Thanks for letting me know you read and are considering my post. That was as brief of a synopsis I could do so I can elaborate on it if you'd like. I since took it down. I guess I would say that if those are the only two verses that make you doubt open theism, then you should become an open theist because most of the bible shows the future to be open. I call myself a "partial open theist" because I don't believe that all of the future is free from God's determinism. Certain things were predestined by God to happen exactly as they did. If God predestines and has predestined certain things, then no verse or verses can prove open theism to be false. Peter was an apostle, chosen to be so. It doesn't bother me at all that God had a certain kind of death planned for him. I also do not believe that the Holy Spirit knowing that some would fall away from the faith means that God knows future free will actions. It's a pretty vague "prediction" type of statement.

@evanu6579

6 жыл бұрын

contemplate Thanks for getting back to me. I do realize that there are a lot of statements that certainly make it sound as though the future is open. Of course the common explanation of that is simply “anthropomorphism”. I’ve understood that an open Theist believes that if a prophecy is made, that it’s something God has determined to do. That is why some of these “deterministic” statements seem troublesome to me. This prophecy isn’t all that vague.... 1Tim 4: 1 ¶ Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; 3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. “Some” is the most vague part of this statement. The rest is pretty specific. I’m not against open theism. My answer when asked as to what I believe on this matter is “I don’t know, I lean towards God knowing the future, but i wouldn’t be at all surprised if either side were true”. I plan on doing a full study on this some day. Are you aware of anyone who debates for open theism that represents that view well? I’d like to check them out. Thanks.

@contemplate-Matt.G

6 жыл бұрын

Evan, I actually answered you right away, posting the link to a video I wanted you to see, but youtube never posted it. I just found out now when I signed in with my other screen name. Apparently youtube doesn't like links in the posts so I'll just copy and paste the names. "Greg Boyd on open theism (the open view of the future)" This next one is the first in a twelve part series. It's a little more elementary but still very good. "An Overview of the Open View of God - Open View (Part 1)"

proginóskó: to know beforehand 4267 proginṓskō (from 4253 /pró, "before" and 1097 /ginṓskō, "to know") - properly, foreknow; used in the NT of "God pre-knowing all choices - and doing so without pre-determining (requiring) them" (G. Archer). Jeremiah 18:8-10 8 and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. 9 And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, 10 and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it. proorizó: to predetermine, foreordain 4309 proorízō (from 4253 /pró, "before" and 3724 /horízō, "establish boundaries, limits") - properly, pre-horizon, pre-determine limits (boundaries) predestine. [4309 (proorízō) occurs six times in the NT (eight in the writings of Paul). Since the root (3724 /horízō) already means "establish boundaries," the added prefix (pro, "before") makes 4309 (proorízō) "to pre-establish boundaries," i.e. before creation.] ONLY in Calvinism, to they unlawfully wed these two words together based on...Philosophy?

@darylspanneberg2807

6 жыл бұрын

And again, if the issue was made personal as to actually ask about the sin in their life or my life...God knows I will commit adultery, does it then follow He determined my adultery as well?

@darylspanneberg2807

6 жыл бұрын

In Calvinism, the answer yes...Why? For His Glory ! Come quickly Lord Jesus, Come quickly...

@keananbrand2671

4 жыл бұрын

Thanks for these definitions! I have never understood how people conflate knowing something with making it happen.

Going thru this kind of convesation with a Calvinist now. I really don't understand how they conflate knowing and determining. If I offer my fiance a rat or macaroni and cheese for dinner...and I KNOW he'll choose the mac and cheese...It does NOT mean I MADE him choose the mac and cheese.....goodness gracious it's not rocket science!

@venanciorodriguez9050

6 жыл бұрын

Tess W They conflate knowing & determining, because their systematic demands it. Calvinists claim to know HOW it is, that God knows the future. Within their beliefs, God predetermined everything that would ever happen, down to the smallest quantum particle, so He knows the future, because He FIRST predetermined the future. And this is the ONLY way possible, according to them, is God's ability to know the future. In other words, God does not have the ability to know anything, unless He first predetermined everything.

@ETHANGELIST

5 жыл бұрын

You're applying a silly man offering a rat or mac and cheese for dinner to the infinite and timeless God offering salvation to sinners? Very foolish my friend

@paulhorner2260

4 жыл бұрын

Yes but we are not talking about an obvious choice. In addition, you would be saying that God knows about what will happen with people who are not even born. God in his greatness, can and I believe has chosen to not know the future of our salvation but still have sovereignty to make sure his redemption plan is completed. If God knows who will choose him and who will not choose him before he or she is born that is very close to determinism. From what I can tell, this is where Leighton is inconsistent. That being said, Leighton is doing an awesome job putting out information on the flaws of Calvinism. He has helped me out a ton!

He keep complaining about the idea of God's sovereignty over the holocaust and rape and yet this isn't a biblical argument but an emotional one and is just very silly when we consider the Flood of Noah, the war campaigns against the Canaanites, and especially the murder of God's perfect Son in the Bible. God obviously ordained all of the latter and yet remains perfectly holy