Will pin this here: there have been many a comment I have had to remove because of the WILD backlash I am getting - you are allowed to disagree with me, but that doesn't call for at all any of the already quite blatant Homophobic/Transphobic/Anti-Semitic things that have been thrown about these comments. Nor comments that open to that kind of thinking or rhetoric If I see a comment like that, it's gone, I will not be having any of that on my channel and don't care if you think that's me silencing you - I will silence inexcusable hate.

@Snowwinterie

6 ай бұрын

i am very open and subport the LGBQ community i just enjoy Doctor who show

I agree with most of what you said. I think the only part which didn’t sit right for me was the comment about the Doctor’s gender as I feel that flies against the whole point of being accepting of people’s genders the episode was trying to promote in the first place and felt both mean spirited and a bad message to send to kids. I do think the line would’ve certainly been called out if it was a gender reversal for that line too. That being said, I agree the show has always been “woke” in the fact that it promotes tolerance and acceptance of all kinds of people and I think it wouldn’t be Doctor Who without that ideology at its heart.

@fgjsdfgjkl

6 ай бұрын

>I do think the line would’ve certainly been called out if it was a gender reversal for that line too. The repercussions and the impact of misogyny and misandry aren't comparable, so I think comparisons like these aren't constructive. Misandry doesn't have an institutional component, is not enshrined in law like historically it was everywhere and currently it is in some places, and women statistically are more likely to face extreme violence in their lives than men. I agree the line shouldn't have made it in there because your gender doesn't define how in-tune you are with the world. But the backlash would have been greater for a gender reversal because the repercussions of sexism are statistically greater for women.

The only real issue I had with this episode as far as "woke-ness" goes is that the whole "male-presenting timelord" seems very... out of pocket and forced. Like, the Doctor can't see "obvious" solutions to stuff and can't just "let things go" because he's a guy... when he was quite literally a woman like 2 hours prior. But yeah. People upset that The Meep is playing the "sick pronoun game"... You really think that an alien isn't going to have a different concept of gender than we do, when there are already animals ON EARTH that can quite literally *change their gender* or are even pretty much genderless? Then you've got people mad about the fact that there's a badass female UNIT officer in wheelchair. Now as far as Rose goes, I think that if you're not in support of the trans community, then obviously you're not going to like Rose. However, I appreciate that her character is a look into the struggles that a transgender person often faces with regards to bullying that the vast majority of the world is incapable of understanding. It's interesting being able to see not just her side of it, but also Donna's and Sylvia's as mother and grandmother. The only thing I dislike about Rose is purely that she is supposed to be 15 but is clearly being played by someone nearly 20. It gives off High School Musical vibes, but thats kind of a non-issue lol. Ultimately, I think that this episode was a good litmus test of fans. It's always funny to see the people who make fun of leftist "snowflakes" for being upset about pointless stuff throw a temper tantrum when something like this goes against their beliefs. (like that one dude who was absolutely seething with pure rage over the fact that Starfield let's you choose your pronouns)

@criles

6 ай бұрын

Oh yeah, I get what you’re saying. I said this on another comment, but I think the reason the “male-presenting” doesn’t bother me that much is because I don’t think it’s a lone bashing the Doctor for being male (as male-presenting isn’t synonymous with being a man, I’d go as far to argue that Jodie actually did a great job acting like the 13th, even though in a woman’s body, was male-presenting. Hence there were a lot of times like when she went back in time and people were like “a woman?” And she kinda just was like I’m the doctor idk, she a lot of times would do things as if she was used to acting like a male mostly, idk anyways) But I don’t think the line was like “men are stupid,” the line mostly had to do with men and power, and like historically - yes, Men would rather hold on to power than let it go (and I mean that’s power with anyone in reality) but I think the line was a dig at that. That a person who is presenting as male, which I’d say the Doctor always has, might not think of letting power go, plus I’m sure the Doctor never thought of this because they had no idea that Donna had a child nor that the metacrisis passed down, my assumption is that the metacrisis was too overwhelming for anyone to let go until she shared it with Rose. Just my thoughts though, thank you for your comment!

@charg1nmalaz0r51

6 ай бұрын

@@criles The line was clearly men are stupid, you could see the smug looks all the women gave him as they delivered the lines and the spite of rose as she says we know everything, THANKS. The whole scene had a nasty tone. Which is what i don't like about woke writing (note i didn't say progressive). All shows are becoming the same, they are full of hateful lines like this and in the same breath say you shouldn't write sexist comments anymore. It aslways comes across as hypocritical which is why people are getting sick of it.

@tequilasunset4651

6 ай бұрын

​@@charg1nmalaz0r51on top of that, I think 15 is going to be a counterpoint to the tortured doctor that struggles to let things go and runs the risk of being "time lord victorious". I don't really have a problem with Donna saying something like "men can't just let things go huh" but you're right that how it was delivered was too heavy-handed

@HishamA.N_Comicbroe

6 ай бұрын

@@charg1nmalaz0r51 Good points but wouldn't say "all shows" . The best shows coming out atm aren't like this at all.

As both a Whovian and a Trekkie, I never understood just what the phobes got out of either show. Like your video shows, Doctor Who has always been woke since the 1960s, and the same can be said of Star Trek.

@Bluenochian

6 ай бұрын

I am the same, I am a huge fan of Doctor Who and Star Trek, I loved Discovery because gay characters were not pushed into our throats and the show never made fun of the white male characters... You see? The issue is that doctor who now, is a hate message, Capaldi's era was also woke, but no one was mad, no one went about it as they go about it now, you know why? It's so forced and cringe at this point. No one has any issues with gay/lesbian/trans/nonbinary people or disabled in any show, but if you push it down to the viewer's throat and try to insult white males for literally no reason, you know that's only going to draw hate as it should. Keeping it natural is always the key, regardless of the message, that's how writing works.

9:30 to add on to that, in the first episode of Genesis of the Daleks there were literally Iron Crosses on their uniforms

@MrPonytron

6 ай бұрын

Yes. Daleks were meant to be a Nazi allegory. I'm pretty sure everyone who's seen Doctor Who knows this by now. You know the Daleks are villains, right?

@liamscienceguy8153

6 ай бұрын

@@MrPonytron you’re acting like that comment with that wording is something I would say if I disnt

People who call DW woke are just people who did not watch the show from start to now. Im seriously getting sick of the hate this show is getting. If only they knew how has this show provided a sense of belonging, friendship, and comfort to some people. 💔💙

Hi, I was really glad to see your video among all these thumbnails that go along the lines of “omg it‘s still woke“, “help; wokism has dr who still dead”. Yes, the episode was often pretty on the nose and I also stumbled over that at first, but then I thought: “Does it any harm to me or do I have to sacrifice anything for it?” The answer is: nothing really. I can easily tolerate something like that if I think about how much it can possibly mean for a sad kid that struggles because it’s ”different“. But I have some criticism concerning “wild blue yonder” because I can’t see the benefit of changing the appearance of Isaac Newton, seems a bit like a d-move towards him. Instead this could have been a brilliant opportunity to show or represent a lesser known poc scientist, perhaps even a female poc scientist, who did astonishing work. It’s not like the beginning was that relevant for the story of the episode anyway. Nevertheless, thank you for this video!

I found the episode disappointing, but it’s still refreshing to see a KZreadr talk about it who isn’t unhinged and reactionary. it’s been near impossible to find critiques that aren’t like “It was bad because TRANS/woke blahblah blah”. Why is this fandom so toxic?? 😓

@criles

6 ай бұрын

Yeah and that’s totally fair, not everyone had to like it!

@LinguaPhiliax

5 ай бұрын

I'd hate to be one of those guys to say "they were never truly fans of the show", but considering how little of the show the Chuds seemed to understand or pay attention to, I am very tempted to say that anyway.

@MatthewCYN15

4 ай бұрын

Tell me about it...

Really good video & I'm glad that someone's acknowledging how progressive this show has been while some of these fans aren't at all.

It wasn't a 50th anniversary level episode but it was certainly better than Chibnall era

I loved this episode but when rose said 'something a male presenting doctor could never understand' it felt to me that was going too far in the other direction, almost suggesting that my identity comes with the fact that I'm not as good as someone else. Especially because the doctor had been a woman less than a day ago and it seemed to hammer home the message that a person is not more than their gender. I don't think that when people transition, they fundamentally change, I think they're the same person on the inside as they've always been.

@MatthewCYN15

4 ай бұрын

I think Rose was just being sarcastic, like her mum, cause the Doc and Donna banter with each other and Donna has roasted the Doc a few times humorously. Friends banter with each other, and in some cases, female friends would bring gender into their banter (from personal experiences and others experiences).

Honestly, I would just like to tweak those eye roll moments. Have Donna or Sylvia get The Meep’s pronouns wrong instead. The Doctor is, as this video showcases, very queer. And he has always seemed to have an affinity for knowing one’s gender. So him being the one who gets it wrong feels disjointed. Especially when in Wild Blue Yonder he guesses a corpses pronouns right when Donna gets it wrong. That just highlights the out-of-character-ness of the scene. I would also remove the “male presenting” but from the “male presenting time lord” line. Because I’m personally one to say that flipping sexist lines doesn’t make it less sexist. Just a different kind of sexist. And it would make it more about being a human thing over a time lord thing. In comparison to a female over male thing like it comes across as. And in Wild Blue Yonder. I know it shouldn’t, but the Isaac Newton scene does bug me. Yes because Isaac Newton was white and as you said in this video, Doctor Who is meant to be educational as well. So whilst in a sci fi show it is perhaps a bit inane to be annoyed at anachronisms. It does bug me. And also because they include the apocryphal apple story. I am a pedant. My stance on it feels like it would be at home in a David Mitchell rant. It is a stupid thing to be annoyed about, but it bugs me nonetheless. So I would also probably change that to be slightly more historically accurate. Three small nitpicks in 2 otherwise great episodes isn’t bad at all in my eyes.

@sherlockowiec1693

6 ай бұрын

Right? The line about "male presenting time lord" didn't make any sense after you remember the dialogue between the Doctor and Bill "B: So, the Time Lords, bit flexible on the whole man-woman thing, then, yeah? D: We're the most civilised civilisation in the universe. We're billions of years beyond your petty human obsession with gender and its associated stereotypes."

@yusaki8064

6 ай бұрын

@@sherlockowiec1693 Yeah. My sister mentioned that to me as well. It just made that line feel even more out of place.

as someone who exists basically exclusively in queer spaces, the scenes with clear messages about trans acceptance definitely did feel a bit clunky to me at times, but that's probably partly because they've got to really spell it out for people who might not already be super familiar with these terms and experiences. in the end, doctor who is an educational show. and honestly, it's really nice seeing that they're not hiding anything about their support, they're not trying to pander to both sides, they're taking a stance and saying "hey. trans people are people. the doctor would always have believed that, so you can get out now if you want or you can stay here and learn something" it's also really sweet, knowing that david tennant has a non-binary kid wasn't a fan of the "male presenting time lord can't let it go" thing, it just felt a bit mean? also the doctor was just a woman like 12 hours ago, the implication that there was a sudden change in personality there based entirely on gender kind of sucks. but other than that i think it was cheesy at worst and heart warming at best

Fantastic video Criles, you need more views for this. The more views, the more people get educated and corrected on what this show has done and what it is. Be well, and Happy Holidays!

@criles

6 ай бұрын

Thank you!! And happy holidays to you too!

I honestly don't mind the "wokeness" of Doctor Who. So long as its comedic.

I have no problem with Rose's character and her being transgender but It really did feel like the episode was just a means of promoting a political message rather than an emotive story. It didn't feel like a celebration of the show, and when you have lines like "It's a shame you're not a woman anymore she'd of understood" it feels like a middle finger to a character that we've grown up to love. Most of my gripe with the episode was that it just wasn't very good, it had a lackluster story, poor pacing and clunky dialogue.

@criles

6 ай бұрын

Idk, I thought that it was more of a return to form following the lack luster stories of Chibnall’s era, an easy reintroduction to Doctor Who for old fans and new fans alike

You completely bypassed Andrew Cartmel! Y'know - of The Cartmel Masterplan?! First hinting that the Doctor is not just a Time Lord. But wait - how is Turlough queer-coded?!

Your message is as strong as your presentation. 1st episode was mediocre. Correcting assuming pronouns was fine, but male presenting sounds like it's to put men down. To me, a real person saying that is a red flag. I don't blame anyone for assuming wokeness makes subpar writing considering the episode is 4/10 at best. 2nd episode was good. It just supports the idea that entertainment and story should always come first.

@criles

6 ай бұрын

I see what you’re saying. I will say that Male Presenting isn’t synonymous with Men though, and I think the line was more about how power is something that Male Presenting people can’t let go of

@albertgeddis7308

6 ай бұрын

@@criles i think they were trying to do something like the "ego" line from Hell Bent when that one guy regenerates

The only problem I have with this episode is the situation with the meta crises doctor does come across as a bit of a deus ex machina, other then that, when it comes to this video, it was nice to finally have a video that puts all the bigots in their place.

@criles

6 ай бұрын

Yeah! That’s totally a fair complaint, thank you for your comment!

the only thing i have to say about this i wished when they do the writing make it like they do when writing for captain Jake and sprinkle it in like they use to do and make the characters more developed then what their are doing now

True! Doctor Who has always been WOKE but not too much!😂 Jesus!

He writing wasn't brilliant in those part of TSB but I adored the fact that non binary and pronouns was even mentioned without it becoming that entire characters personality, especially as a fellow non binary person who's grown up with the show, people need to realize that stuff like this needs to be addressed, more so because of the current situation that a lot of LGBTQIA+ folk are in, we're constantly ridiculed by society itself.

This reminds me, I had a quibble with someone over in the comments at Equestria Daily under an article about Russian censors going after My Little Pony: FiM. This person suggested it was gay folks' fault somehow because they took rainbows away from "traditional people", and then proceeded to hurl the f-word in relation to their existence in a show that they claimed to enjoy. And it boggles my mind how anyone can claim to be a fan of a program full of magical horses building friendship and somehow also be a bigot. How do blind spots that big manage to form, that they fail to see the incompatibility of their hatred with clearly progressive media?

Honestly, I only have two "issues" with it. Well, one issue and one insignificant thingy. The one thingy is regarding Rose. Just her age, cause I can't get my head around it if she adult or nah, simply cause I also couldn't tell if post "treatment" or not. But that's my personal view that non-adults shouldn't have these operations unless green light from a psychology specialist (to worried a person "might grow out of it" when it was decided as a teen). Edit: This only came up to me cause now the internet throws into my face that Rose sis trans. The honest issue was the insult against The Doctor. Like, come on mate...that's rude or sexist ... or both.

@VeloSims

6 ай бұрын

I don't think it's your problem to know about someone's medical transition. If you yourself think it's insignificant, why comment it?

@dominiklange8382

6 ай бұрын

@@VeloSims Fair point and fair question that I cant really anwser. Maybe to show how little issues the Episode has?

@Bluenochian

6 ай бұрын

Thats why everyone hating the show now, not because it's woke but because it's really, incredibly sexist.

@mr.flibble3190

5 ай бұрын

@@Bluenochian Who is "everyone?" You, your cat, and the voice in your head? Don't tell other people what they think. It's always rude and often wrong.

I was so disappointed when I started seeing review videos on YT pop up saying "Doctor Who is WOKE" and complaining about it. Like, yeah, it's always has been. And these are the same people who praised RTD returning. It's insane. Anyway - amazing video, this earned you a sub, thank you so much 💙

@criles

6 ай бұрын

Thank you so much 💙💙💙

@km76

6 ай бұрын

I think a lot of people don't differentiate between woke and Liberal. I'd argue dw has been fairly Liberal and the classics did an amazing job of sharing Liberal ideals without spreading hate towards other groups... new who, and being "woke", seems more about dumping on one group whilst claiming to be elevating another group but also more hateful... "if you disagree wimme you must be a nasi and evil and all kinds of terrible" whereas in reality, they just have a different opinion. So Liberal seems fine, woke seems like spite and malice.

@nomadsgalaxy

6 ай бұрын

@@km76 I agree in a sense. The root of the issue is that there has been a strong conservative group whipping up people into a frenzy over this stuff, against both liberal ideals and slapping a label on anything they think is... Honestly I don't even know. They boilerplate that term so much it's hard to define it by their standards. It's just disheartening in the end.

@km76

6 ай бұрын

@nomadsgalaxy well, I'd say these folks are just fed up of it being force fed in to society with malice. Since the new who reboot every Dr and several male characters are physically assaulted by females, told they're idiots and useless, and now told they can't comprehend specifically because they're male. Say one word about that and it's an avalanche of names and shaming tactics thrown from more liberals, the group that seems to be struggling to differentiate conveying Liberal ideals in a digestible to all manner and simply demanding we like or be accused of x,y and z. I think there's arguments and points on both sides, but the current way dw is pushing things ain't helping.. it is just alienating its historically dominant fan base...men.

@JoeLawson-po8zp

6 ай бұрын

Yeah, and then they get defensive when you call them out for transphobia. They will literally make a transphobic comment and then claim they're not transphobic. It's baffling to me that KZread seems perfectly fine with hate speech, but if you swear your video gets demonetised. But anyway, I don't even consider those people to be part of the fandom. I'm betting the vast majority don't even watch the show other than once or twice a year. To me they're no different to a tabloid newspaper and have nothing to do with us. It's annoying that KZread keeps reccomending them when I really don't know how much clearer I can make it that I'm not interested.

apart from two eye roll moments which was forgotten about instantly it was a great episode. even the explination of the meta crisis bit made sense.

14:50 this scene was really annoying to me not cz of all the words, but simply cz they didn't explain how this "letting go" works. How they are able to just "let go" meta crisis??? It's just that how dramatic meta crisis was in season 4, with Donna having to forget everything and then how easy this solution comes up... I mean yeah, she passed part of this sciency-wiency metacrisis juice to her child, so it's less distractive, but AT LEAST TELL ME HOW THIS LETTING GO WORKS DAMN IT AND HOW YOU REALIZED YOU CAN DO THAT

Your video focuses on addressing the audience that came in to hate on the show for it's representation and that's understandable but I don't have a problem with any of the LGBTQ or minorities and I have a problem with the special Wild Blue Yonder was a really good special with good monsters and a good premise with a decently smart conclusion Star Beast was a really bad special with good monsters and a good premise but decided to screw up the conclusion to a story that was ended back in 11's original run I don't have any problem with anyone of any whatever But what I do have problem with is bad writing in service of messaging The moment of the episode where they just let the power go just feels like and pardon my French Bullshit I was thinking throughout the entire episode how they were gonna find a smart and interesting way to resolve this conflict Will the Doctor leave Donna again with no memories? Will the Toymaker and the Doctor's conflict cause some cosmic whatever? Will Donna die? I was waiting for something amazing and all that I got was a message of equality and absolutely no answers to anything I liked Star Beast, The pronouns thing was really funny and the Meep reminded me of Kitty Galore from that Spy movie about cats and dogs But I was disappointed by the ending and the reason I care is because that's what mattered to me and it feels like they skipped over it and are using representation to hide the fact they just didn't have a good answer to anything The "woke" part isn't the problem it's the writing and I feel like if they removed the message from that scene nobody would defend it. I think The Giggle will be amazing because honest to God I hope it will be I just want Doctor Who to be an entertaining watch again

4:35 The montage of all the woke moments from Doctor Who's history that have always been there is so desparately needed. Thank you for being another person to call out all this bullshit. 12:05 Also, I could HEAR her voice in that tweet XD.

@criles

5 ай бұрын

of course, thank you!

I think overall i enjoyed the star beast and I think all the acting was excellent and I don't know why people see this representation thing as an issue, its just people being people. That being said the writing and dialogue for two of the scenes did seem off to me, not that the message was being forced down anyone's throat, but that the scene was more built to give the message rather than it being integrated fully, those being the misgendering the meep scene, which i thought was an excellent idea but how it was written did to me feel just a little forced, mostly the line from the meep itself, I think David and Yasmin did a great job with it though and the last, "male presenting timelord" bit, i have to agree with those that say it did feel like taking a swing at one group to raise another, not saying it was terrible, just that it was flawed and could've been better written, it also makes little sense when several hours before, the doctor was a woman and is established (although in a joke) during Capaldi and bill on the university roof top that they are billions of years past the concept of gender and they are sort of both at any given time. Although i can fully understand why that line is there. and i agree with your comment below that the reason they were able to let go is because they could split the load, but it certainly wasn't presented that way in the scene and i think it should've been. and on your comment of who cares, besides all the problematic people, i think its just because those moments, just for a little just completely take you out of the episode, they feel jarring and unnatural, but thats the same with any level of bad writing, or awkward scenes, The overall issue is not the representation or even the characterisation for me its just those couple moments of dialogue. im interested in your opinion on these points ^^ but i completely agree with you on all other marks, bigots begone doctor who has always been "woke" and always will be,

@criles

6 ай бұрын

Oh yeah I completely agree, I also can feel the “forced”ness of those moments but my video is supposed to be in defense of the episode as a whole so despite those moments I still think the episode was good and a good return to Doctor Who form from Chibnall’s seasons and that those moments are not nearly as “bad” or new to happening in the franchise. There are oft times that moments like this happen in the show, and I think are nothing to tear down the show nor peoples identities for, y’know?

@barney9515

6 ай бұрын

oh absolutely its such a nice return from what we had to witness before, and i know your video was on the episode as a whole i was just curious on your opinions of those specific moments, people complaining about the existence of these characters are just being ridiculous and no its not something to tear the show down over at all, I've been heavily enjoying these last two specials much more than any episode of the Chibnall era, just wouldn't quite put them as top tier favourites, I'm looking forward to the next one though, i love Neil Patrick Harris @@criles

that super cut was HILARIOUS ;D

Doctor who has always been "woke" as in it's always supported diversity and inclusion. The new crap however puts down certain people to prop up others instead of giving all equally good roles. Not only that, new stuff is spitting in the face of the established lore. No one who is a genuine who fan cares that rose in the new shows is trans. The actual who fans cares about the terrible writing and the bashing of established who lore and who actors. Remember how they made the original doctor into a racist, sexist jerk who Capaldi was embarrassed by? That's the crap genuine fans hate. True fans hate Tennent being told as a male presenting time lord, he can't understand that women can just let things go before Donna just magically lets go of the time power that we had an emotionally charged and heart breaking episode about how the only way for her to live was to forget everything about the doctor. That was after the doctor was in fact a woman... Everyone who tries to silence these very real and genuine critiques of the show is being disingenuous at best

@Freezyloen

6 ай бұрын

Well said! With all the screaming back and forth and name calling that often tends to happen in discussions like these (and has apparently already happened in this comments section), a simply critical voice is what the discussion needs.

@criles

6 ай бұрын

So I agree, to an extent, with what you’re saying - but a few things on that: 1. Most of your gripes have nothing to do with the point I’m making in the video - which is - Bigots are attacking the episode because of Trans Storylines and/or the empowering moments for Women in the show. 2. I wholeheartedly believe if that line was reversed, if it was a line in which “being a woman” was the butt end of the joke - all of the same people bashing the current line would come out and tell any person offended by that line that they are a “special snowflake who can’t take a joke,” I don’t think that line at all was “bashing” Tennant for being a man, it’s a line about women having a separate understanding of power - which historically is just true, how many wars, problems, etc. have been caused by a man in power - it’s a dig at that. And 3. Or 2.5. My interpretation of why Donna and Rose Noble were even able to let it go was because the metacrisis was split between the two - it was probably too overwhelming for Donna ever to be able to do when it first happened. And since only 14 was the one to find out Donna had a child and only as 14 did they discover that the metacrisis was passed down - 13 would never have known this. I mean in the second special we know that the memories Donna was privy too is still too much for her to handle, so it makes sense why it would have killed her if she never got to share the load with Rose. So, it makes sense to me.

@plazmotron2000

6 ай бұрын

@@criles > Bigots are attacking the episode because of Trans Storylines and/or the empowering moments for Women in the show Either you were watching or reading reviews only conceived by some American redneck republican freaks from Alabama, or such a nice thing as The Point flew right past you, because I've seen several videos here on youtube criticizing this episode, and in literally zero of them was any sort of criticism towards any minorities, and main idea was something like "yes we know that the series are always about inclusion and all those values and so forth, but can you at least make a good story and not treat your audience as a bunch of miserable morons thank you very much", and they also were criticizing several screenwriting aspects about the episode's screenwriting, and if you'll try to watch any of those (like, for example, The Critical Drinker's one, it's short enough) not with attitude like "let's see what this dirty bigot has to say" but with genuine concern about opposing party's opinion and roots of this opinion, you will find out that the overall "wokeism" all in all is not really a point of the criticism, but rather quality of the product and author's attitude towards his audience. And may I remind you that I don't remember any sort of ungodly backlash about Jack Harkness being gay or Bill Potts being black gay person, so maybe it is really at all not about the said inclusion, but about the way it is made now.

@Prime_Rabbit

6 ай бұрын

@@criles and that's where the bad writing comes into play. That was always going to be an important scene that needed clarity and the writing hasn't been up to snuff for a while. And yes, if they had it written with the opposite gender, there would be idiots saying that. There's always going to be bigots saying stuff like that no matter which side you look at. I try my best to drown them out

While I get your response to people claiming that Doctor who has become woke, I would like to offer another perspective on why people are saying this. Even though it seems to simply not make sense that people who were happy with the return of RTD, who has always been progressive, are now claiming that the show has only recently become woke, the sheer amount of people saying this merits multiple hypotheses. Yes, it might just be a logical flaw on their part and it might be that bigotry is the reason behind it. However, I would argue it lies in the difference between the (admittedly very vague or even arbitrary) terms of "progressive" and "woke" - for some people anyway, as there will also still be bigots, but way less then a lot of people like to claim. Doctor who, and RTD specifically, has very clearly always been *progressive*, as you gave various examples of in this video, but I wouldn't say they've necessarily always been woke. Ideals that used to be very much "progressive" - take things like personal freedom, secularism, more equality between the sexes - have become way more widely accepted and implemented (in the west at least, but as I am from the west I will only confidently talk about the west). With this change, what is regarded as "progressive" has also changed. Where certain ideals are normalized and thus starting to get less and less identified with the term "progressive", for other ideals/opinions that are just starting to pop up/just gaining traction the opposite is the case. For example, the relatively recent political discussion around gender identity has changed the public perception of "progressive" drastically, and has introduced a substantial part of the subset of "woke" ideas. While "progressive" now generally includes these ideas, a lot of people who would agree with other/earlier "progressive" sentiment, might not agree with these newly "progressive" ideas. This explains how people who had no issue with RTD's "progressiveness" over ten years ago, DO have issues with this newer sense of "progressiveness", without it necessarily having to be the case that bigotry is behind it. I think a lot of the examples you gave are actually quite good examples of this. All the LGB(/omnisexual) people you named and the clips of progressive messages in doctor who - including but not limited to feminist, pro-LGB, anti-racist, pacifist, capitalism-critic and environmentalist messages - are very much examples of "progressiveness", but have also been so since before the gender identity debate and do not necessarily fall under the newer "woke" umbrella. In the end however, I suspect that a large part of this discussion around 'The Star Beast' stems from the use of the term "woke". For one it is not really that well defined, as is often the case for (arbitrary or not) terms for broad political ideals. But more importantly, it's just generally overused - although on the other end the same can be said for the term gatekeeping. Add to that how people often confuse or muddle together sexual orientation (identity) - LGB and such - and gender identity, for example by just calling it all "gay", and you get misunderstandings and discussions that escalate.

@criles

6 ай бұрын

Oh yeah, I totally get what you're saying, definitely is more complicated than I went through - my goal was more to put a simple defense video up cause a LOT of hate and nastiness attacking people and their identities through this episode has become quite alarming.

You have no idea how much this video made me happy , I keep seeing hate videos

@criles

6 ай бұрын

That’s what I made it for!! ❤️❤️❤️

I didn't even notice that Donna's daughter was Trans .

As a very old cis woman who got into Doctor Who way back in the Jon Pertwee days I have to laugh at the "going woke" commenters. It gives me the same vibes as the people who complained Star Trek was going woke. I'm still laughing about it. I honestly feel like the one's who actually watched the show and are complaining (and not just the one's repeating headlines and talking points without watching the show) were little kids who finally grew up and could now recognize what is being said. It's much like watching the old Looney Tunes cartoons after you grow up and realizing how much adult humor was already in them and you never knew it when you were a kid. Welcome to adulthood and the real world kids. These are the things have always been discussed in our media.

@criles

6 ай бұрын

Yes exactly!!!

@InAHollowTree

6 ай бұрын

Ah, that’s probably the reason- they've grown up and finally understand whats being said. Just like with Star Trek, I’ve been trying to figure out how these people are even watching these shows to begin with. These themes were always there.

0:00 You and me both.

The writing of the episodes was clunky at times in the way you'd expect from a middle aged writer or actor, or like what you'd expect from your dad who you've come out to, that doesn't quite get it but is willing to do everything to love an accept you. That's the vibe I got and it's a lot better than no representation (which like you said has never been the case in DW or most sci-fi). The fact that DW cast and crew are allies and visibly so gives me so much happiness.

Yay! Thank you for making this video. And good job pulling the appropriate quotes and clips!

@criles

6 ай бұрын

Thank you, glad you liked it!

Lovely video, but it does seem a bit wrong to use Steven Universe as the "Chud" visual. He and his show were as progressive and wonderfully woke as they could get! In fact, it set new standards for representation in children's media. Steven's about as far from a "Chud" as... well, as the Doctor!

@criles

6 ай бұрын

I love Steven Universe, I just thought the Steven image was a good visual for someone screaming lol

@JoeEnglandShow

6 ай бұрын

@@criles Sure, fair enough. I guess I thought someone should say it, just in case some uninformed viewer got the wrong idea. The last decade has taught me never to underestimate the power of misconception!

Great video 🔥

This is the same thing with X-Men and Star Trek. I cannot understand how people think NOW these IPs have gone "woke". They've always been.

I do not have a problem with gender identity and pronouns of the characters in the show but I do not agree with the way they are incorporated into the episodes of recent years. For the majority of New Who and all of Classic Who, I found it almost exclusively educational. Compared to how characters take offence from assumptions before the learning opportunity in recent New Who. I think that when the show was slower in pace, there was less drama and more science + science fiction explanation.

Hi, fam! I'm arguing with a Trump-loving hater who says classic Who was never woke, which we all know is a lie, but classic Who is so boring, so I need help to prove him wrong because I haven't seen it much. Please tell me the names of some classic Who stories where the Doctor/fam educates someone ignorant about why dead-naming is problematic. I know the classic show went on for decades, so just a handful of examples will do. Thanks, fam!

Cake has sugar in it, it makes cake taste nice. Too much sugar and cake no nice anymore. Yes Doctor Who has always been woke but it was never in your face, too much of anything can make you sick and that's exactly the issue with this new Doctor who era. They have dialled up the wokeness to a level which is too much for the average viewer, It's not about viewers disliking queer, its the fact that if you're not queer then its very hard to relate to these themes. Why do we care? because Doctor Who is supposed to be about aliens and Sci-Fi, not ideologies. All of those woke examples you gave are excellent and they should stay in the show, but they were excellent because they were subtle, because the main theme for the show is Sci-Fi, not queer. Dialling up the wokeness has now taken Doctor Who out of its Sci-Fi category and it is now more fitting to put it into a queer category. That's great if you're queer however the vast majority of the fanbase are not, and it has resulted in wokeness alienating yet another fanbase. We care because we don't want ideologies to constantly take president over our media, and this isn't just about queer, I would be saying the exact same thing if a show went all religious just to push Christian ideology to make Christians feel more represented. The religious folk have their own category of content like how the queer folk do, instead of changing Doctor Who to be way more woke why not create a brand new spin off series with new characters and put it in the woke category and make it as queer as you like. Instead of alienating a fanbase of Sci-Fi lovers and bastardising David Tennant, a fan favourite Doctor.

Can we just say that this kind of populist “anti woke” commentary doesn’t come from fans, it comes from rage bait generating content creators and media

Yeah sure mate, I get what you mean, I honestly do. I loved the Capaldi era, oh it was my favorite, it was woke but oh boy, how beautiful it was... But now? The show is: White straight man is bad, look I'm woman or queer and I am better than you. Everything is so forced and so unprofessional at this point that everyone is hating on the show, even the biggest fans. I mean Criles, come on... Don't you remember when River was mocking the Doctor about how she was better than him because she is a woman? Everyone loved it, it was cute and funny and lovely, why didn't people be mad about it as they are today? Guess what? Because the show is all about hate towards the white male, glorifying lgbtq, and all about wokeness, they literally said that, on BBC's own website, in their review of The Star Beast, "it's all about message"... We are not here for any message, we are here to enjoy the damn show, we are watching it to escape the reality, majority of us and they are using the show for propaganda, nope, NOPE. The issue is not because it is woke, it's because it's trying way too hard, targeting white males and males in general and that's the irony, the show IS sexist, and pushing propaganda and forcing you to accept something, people will not and they do not have to, this will only cause hatred, if you want people to get use to queer people, then include them casually, do not go around with billboards to celebrate it, just introduce them as they are just like you and me, that's it, not too hard, no one will be mad about it, not a single soul. Honestly, it's unbearable and it needs to stop.

@LinguaPhiliax

5 ай бұрын

Grow up.

Same as people complaining Star Trek's gone all woke and liberal :-)

@charg1nmalaz0r51

6 ай бұрын

You like the video creator do not seem to know what people refer to when they say a show has gone woke. It has nothing to do with progressive politics/politics in shows. Or should i say not entirely. It is mainly how to show is written. I havent the time to point out the tropes and things that go along with woke shows. But if you do a few youtube searches i am sure there are plenty of creators out there that will explain it to you.

Thank you for making this video!!! My thoughts exactly.