More electricians Q&A here 📺👉kzread.info/head/PLmWOIPxaBWH7XMcW07S7CTQM9G-M1GHzc

@boherrmannsen8219

2 жыл бұрын

late to the party, but you can't bond plastic. it's simply common sense, so you might want to do a 2 hour video on what common sense is :-D (bad danish joke)

As an apprentice, this helped me alot. More on this topic please eFIXX!!!

"You can't apply bonding to protect from faulty installation elsewhere." I wholeheartedly disagree. Workmanship is always a variable when making standards, and overlapping protections save us every day.

@lhffan

2 жыл бұрын

Not in this case

@dalekify

2 жыл бұрын

@@lhffan But, you asked what we would do. We know that there are idiots who do unsafe work. We also know that we are all human and minds do wander. On the other hand, if the fault was in the consumer unit, bonding it could make things much worse.

18th edition says no to bonding plastic incoming pipes. btw - It’s either earthing or bonding, not earth bonding. They’re two separate functions 👍🏻

@gowdsake7103

2 жыл бұрын

What it should say is that in that case then any metal sink or fitting should be earth bonded to a ground spike

@CarlCosby

2 жыл бұрын

It’s either earthing or bonding, they’re two separate functions. The sink isn’t an exposed conductive part, therefore not required to be earthed. The sink “could” be an extraneous conductive part, if so, it would therefore require protective bonding. If not, no protective bonding. There’s a test one can do to prove if something is or isn’t considered extraneous.

@tristandowning5609

5 ай бұрын

@@CarlCosby What is that test?

Does this still apply when these water pipes are surface mounted on walls throughout an installation and include outside taps and electric water heaters? As exposed conductive parts, there is no question that they shouldn't become live, but what does the term 'under fault conditions' apply to? (Have bonded pipes in an installation like this recently)

I've seen a voltage difference between cold and hot pipes within a house form when the hot water pipe heats up as a tap opens. I'm just wondering if in future a reg will come out with a bonding portion of pipe to bring the water to a zero potential.

In a house with radiators that are plumbed with copper pipe; are the central heating water pipes bonded completely independently of the house water supply? Could disconnecting the water pipe bonding mess with the radiator bonding?

So out of interest on the EIC do you put N/A in the tick box then? Would this be sufficient or would you need to prove bonding is not necessary by providing a measured resistance value to prove it isn’t required ?

I live in Germany. We have TNC-S and a plastic water pipe. The pipes in the house are made of copper and are bonded to the foundation earth. The house is almost 50 years old. As far as I know, the heating engineer has requested that the earthing is available, so the earthing is not at the inlet of the pipe but on the heating system. But that doesn't matter with copper tubes.

To muddy the waters, PME/TN-C-S installations are required to have an insulation joint the gas supply if it's via a metal pipe to stop it carrying any fault current. So does the gas pipework downstream of the IJ still need to be bonded? And what about the exposed metal pipework upstream of the IJ as that can't be bonded. FWIW the incoming water main is black MDPE so shouldn't need to be bonded but I ran a new 10mm² cable to avoid an argument with the commissioning electrician when I changed the CU.

What if there is a bond wire to the cold water pipe inside the apartment. At some point, the plumber replaced the feeder pipe with PEX. Is there an easy way to check whether that was the main earth ground of the apartment, and would it need to be rebonded or to add earthing rods?

My house has bonding in the bathroom, kitchen and down stairs loo. But the pipe bringing in the mains eater to the d s loo is plastic. All water supply pipes in the house are copper except the ufh on the ground floor. So if all copper pipes have bonding but I do not believe is bonded back to ground? So what is the point, think the house was built in the 70"s Should I bond the nearest pipe to the supply metal protective shield, which is under the stairs and the ufh manifold 22mm copper pipes are there to approx 1 meter away. Thanks for the thoughts on earth bonding and video.

My plumber fitted a new stop tap, he used a plastic push fit connector onto the main water feed in then copper pipe then stop tap as it was live when he changed it. He left the bonding wire disconnected. Now because I have a plastic connector between the main feed and the house pipe work does it still need bonding as the old wire doesn’t reach to what’s left of the inlet feed pipe

To the “I’d bond it anyway” brigade the video clearly shows that when it’s not extraneous it’s no different to any other metalwork in the property. If you “bond it anyway” you’re going to introduce a fault current that wouldn’t otherwise exist. We’re all about keeping fault currents away from people yet bonding an irrelevant piece of metal is increasing the chances of someone coming into contact with live metalwork. Or am I missing something?

@coralbay00

2 жыл бұрын

Exactly 💯 buddy. Its potentially putting someone at risk of electric shock in the event of the pipework becoming live because there would not be a return path.

@squakkers

2 жыл бұрын

@@coralbay00 so shouldn’t bonded conductive parts that are not extraneous be coded C2 or FI on an EICR?

@travoltasbiplane1551

2 жыл бұрын

@@squakkers probably hard to prove its not once the plumbing is fully assembled mate. Have to trust the original designer... But given some of the comments on here that's probably easier said than done.

@coralbay00

2 жыл бұрын

@@squakkers it's a dark area that one. Tbh I would consult niceic (since I'm paying for 2nd opinions) and get advice if I couldn't clarify. The internal pipework throughout the building can in itself be unpredictable. Ie bathroom fitters rock in and cut into the copper slapping in plastic pipe potentially breaking continuity. Put on the spot.......I would agree C2 if certain and fi.......if uncertain. Don't you just love earthing arrangements 🤦‍♂️

@squakkers

2 жыл бұрын

@@coralbay00 No! 🤣

Your tutorials are excellent.

The plastic pipe obviously doesn't make a direct connection to earth, but what about any metal pipe fittings further down the road? At mains voltage water can act as a conductor (or we wouldn't worry about IP rating for things exposed to damp environments) so while the path to earth via the pipe itself doesn't connect to earth directly under the house, surely there's a path to earth via the water in the pipe itself? I accept that the potential is probably a lot lower than the actual copper earth that comes into the building though, so likely wont be a problem, but I would still expect that there is the possibility of an issue there.

@gowdsake7103

2 жыл бұрын

Exactly except bonding to the pipe would be utterly pointless but anything metal should be bonded on the water system

@simongreenidge6454

2 жыл бұрын

Demo of how little current would actually flow through the water in the pipe: kzread.info/dash/bejne/f3ptpqWHm8SraKw.html

@petermichaelgreen

2 жыл бұрын

​@@simongreenidge6454 Where I do think there could be a concern is when the insulating section is very short. If there are meters of insulating pipe then the current is going to be reduced to non-hazardous levels, but if there are only a few centimeters of insulating pipe between sections of conductive pipe that could be a different matter.

@Electric-First

2 жыл бұрын

If water pipe enters to the dwelling in plastic you don’t need the bonding . That is all

@simongreenidge6454

2 жыл бұрын

@@petermichaelgreen Yes, an interesting situation. This video also makes me wonder whether, in a house with a plastic incoming water supply pipe; does any of the network of copper water pipe within the house be (supplementally) bonded e.g. the bathroom?

My home in the US has plastic PEX piping and it is not bonded to the electrical service ground. Code does not require it. However, water is a conductor and water flows from buried metal pipe in the street and comes in contact with metal valves and fixtures in the home. Could a voltage potential be applied somewhere in the system, perhaps a faulty electric water heater element? Perhaps bonding at a location near the entrance via a stainless steel or brass pipe fitting might be a good idea?

What about stainless sinks with these new- fangled electric boiling water taps ? ( double insulated ? or cpc'd wiring?)

There is the electrostatic potential, and the flow of water can still give a little charge. I have seen dust cling to plastic water pipes in use, although current is minimal the field is quite large.

I had a thing about 15 years ago . Plastic incoming main . All the pipe work in the flat was plastic. Customer had a electric shower and complained he got a nasty shock . Shower was about 8 foot away from the incoming plastic main. Couldn’t find anything wrong on testing. It was also a intermittent thing..After a lot of head scratching it was Infact a fault on an adjacent flats water heater .The element was faulty, so was the voltage operated trip. The fault was Infact traveling through the water in the plastic pipe into my customers flat and earthing through him when he was stood in the bath using the shower.. most tradesmen round here still use copper but if it’s plastic I get them to put a small copper section in so I can earth this so this sort of thing never happens again . This was a potentially dangerous situation that no one seems to consider

@jemmyh2511

Жыл бұрын

In this case, was the shower unit itself, and therefore it's constituent metallic parts, not earthed?

@leetaylor5988

Жыл бұрын

Similar thing happened to me .. but the author of this page stated in a comment above that tap water is not the conductive .... he’s lost me there .

Interesting video, but I suspect the more complex answer is "it depends". You're only considering the water supply as it enters the building. What if some of the copper is in contact with the earth elsewhere, e.g. a kitchen island? If you can guarantee that it's not, that there is probably more danger of metallic parts becoming live under fault conditions if they were bonded. However, it's also very likely that a boiler (for example) will have all the metallic pipework bonded, so the point is probably moot anyway. If in doubt measure it, and make a decision based on that.

@tomcapon4447

2 жыл бұрын

This literally came up on r/electricians this week. Pipes not bonded at entry, shorted to hot through a stray wire, and now all the fixtures in the house have live voltage on them relative to anything plugged into an electrical outlet.

@FoodOnCrack

2 жыл бұрын

@@tomcapon4447 Which is why we have everything behind a GFCI in the Netherlands and not only bathrooms or only sockets.

@Orgakoyd

Жыл бұрын

@@FoodOnCrack That’s how it is in the U.K. too.

@EdwardBretherton

6 ай бұрын

would the dpm in the floor act as an insulator to avoid contact with earth, plus you would use plastic pipes to an island to avoid the corrosion of copper , simple answer cross bond gas water and heating pipes

How would water hardness affect the resistivity of the water in the pipe? Can it be low enough in a hard water area to connect metal pipes in the house to metal work upstream via the plastic sections with sufficient conducance to restore the threat? Or would it be like limescale brine at that point? (in which case you might have bigger problems anyway).

@MrSJT

2 жыл бұрын

The worst i measured is 100k ohms so all good

I wear my seatbelt with no intention to have a crash so I'd connect it .. And seen as water is conductive what if there is a leak ? Would it then become 0v?

Joe, what if through various methods such as a gas boiler (cpc from spur), shower (cpc) introduce an earth to the water service through the cpc of the electrical system and where there is no rcd protection should the main water service pipe then be bonded?

@boblewis5558

Жыл бұрын

Please, please will someone explain exactly HOW one **bonds** a **non-conductive** PLASTIC mains water feed? 🤔🤔🤔🤔🙄

We do the main bonding usually in the hot press in Ireland, under the sink would be supplementary bonding to the sink, but in the new regs due to lack of bonding points, ie no flange on sinks plastic pipes and flexible braided pipes. if we prove there's no earth path we don't have to bond, ie via insulation test .

tnx for video! very useful...

Good explanation, makes sense.

I had this situation, and inserted a 6 inch length of copper pipe for the equipotential earth bond to keep the water in the pipes at ground potential, since chlorinated water is quite a good conductor. Any better ideas ???

@jemmyh2511

Жыл бұрын

Use an RCD.

@pjeaton58

Жыл бұрын

@@jemmyh2511 Yes there are RCDs of 30mA on all 3 phases as well !

How much potential could exist if the plastic was only a couple meters long does not water within the pipehave a low enough restitance to be a path/hazard where it is then connected to the lead incomer just thenother side of the wall. The short piece of plastic isnot acting as a complete isolation from ground? So a potential could exist?

Once the metal pipework enters a class 1 appliance, like a water heater or central heating boiler, it will likely get bonded anyway via the chassis being earthed.

@TheMakyato

Жыл бұрын

what about when the ground cable of the appliance /socket get disconected

@Orgakoyd

Жыл бұрын

@@TheMakyato How would this happen?

@TheMakyato

Жыл бұрын

@@Orgakoyd by human error or accident , in europe can happen especially with boilers or washing machine . sometimes you can get electrcuted just on the wet floor

In the list (iv) it says central heating do you have to main bond central heating ?

@efixx

2 жыл бұрын

If the central heating pipes are extraneous conductive parts then yes. If they're not then no.

On a brand new install i would accept the non-bonding of plastic incoming water pipes ( what about plastic gas pipes then ? ) Existing installs can and do bring the risks of cables being found under floors etc resting on metal heating pipes etc ( but they could now be all plastic !) The discussion on protecting metal sinks on older BS7671 regs brought similar conflicting views didnt it ? Personally, I'd still bond and do continuity tests to verify integrity.

There's one more issue: The whole house is at "real earth" potential unless it's built on plastic foundations. Usually that doesn't matter, plaster, bricks and carpet aren't good conductors and the area we touch them is quite small. But now you have copper pipe through your whole house that is buried in brickwork. It makes contact over a quite large surface, plenty of parallel paths---and Ohm's law on parallel connections starts to raise its head. I'd recommend to measure the resistance between "real ground" and any touchable metallic object to decide if it should be bonded.

@michaelherbert2982

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah and if you do bond onto plastic water pipe (but a piece is in copper) what about the millions of gallons of water in the pipe, no one mentions this.... What do you think

@tomcapon4447

2 жыл бұрын

@@michaelherbert2982 Unless your city pumps you seawater, it won't conduct anything through the plastic pipes.

@michaelherbert2982

2 жыл бұрын

@@tomcapon4447 But Tom... I got 15mm copper pipe then going to plastic.... But its full of water... Millions apon millions of gallons of water... So it won't travel through that?

@tomorichard

2 жыл бұрын

@@michaelherbert2982 water is a awful conductor.

@InTimeTraveller

Жыл бұрын

@@tomorichard pure water is a bad conductor but your tap water is a pretty good conductor (because it's nowhere near pure).

Joe, how long to get you in and out of the cabinets? Any pulling lube used?

@efixx

2 жыл бұрын

😂 Longer than you might think! Just relied on my natural litheness...

Bond it so you don't have an argument when ev installer comes round and does a quick check. 🤣

@kroon275

2 жыл бұрын

My ev charger was installed today, but it won't be remotely activated until i get the bonding done 😒

@duncanovens158

2 жыл бұрын

😂so true half a idea is dangerous

some pipes within the house run through the ground. I.E an extension done in copper pipe that was run through the concrete. Therefor is there still a potential within the house?

@markpotter8280

2 жыл бұрын

then you bond that pipe not the main incomer

My question is if the municiple side of the pipe is metal somewhere would we still not have conductivity through the water in the pipes into the earth! Thereofre metalic surfaces like water taps would still be a danger?

What about gas pipes this too is poly pipe to the house is bonding required or not ? Or …..

Like someone else has said I wondered about the water conducting. I am not an electrician, but have this question which many DIYers must have come across. Metal pipe into the house and to the sink with bonding at the taps. Kitchen redone with all plastic plumbing from the point the water comes into the kitchen. Stainless steel sink fitted with metal taps, but plastic tails and plastic as far as the kitchen door. I assumed that because the sink is insulated now there was no point in any sort of bonding. In fact even when there was bonding I was never sure of the logic on a metal sink. I sort of thought I understood on a plastic or pot one that connecting the hot pipe to the cold gave a route back to earth so that seemed sensible.

gas installation pipework also plastic incoming ? The gas regs for this require bonding

Since the city water is conductive enough to prevent static charge from building up with a non-conductive pipe it's not necessary, but if the pipe were transferring a non-conductive fluid such as oil or gas, absolutely ground both ends of it as the friction between the non-conductive pipe and the flowing non-conductive fluid builds up a static charge.

@davidhilton7780

2 жыл бұрын

Any working fluid through a closed isolated loop will exhibit some potential...

@TurboBaldur

2 жыл бұрын

@@davidhilton7780 yes absolutely, but any conductivity in the fluid will drain the charge away, but of course with enough friction and not enough conductivity you can get a charge building faster than it dissipates.

@davidhilton7780

2 жыл бұрын

@@TurboBaldur so wouldn't bonding both ends of a non-conducting line to conductive ends safely dissipate the static in the line and reduce the risks...

@davidhilton7780

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks for your input, I enjoy it greatly. And thank you for conversation on something as trivial as bonding.

What if the alcathene water service had a leaking joint underground sufficient enough to carry current, then the copper pipe inside the property could have potential??

In The Netherlands every home has there own earth-rod connection to the earth. The water inside the pipe may be conductive as well. Therefore inside a bathroom a metal schowerdrain, a metal radiator, warter-taps etc etc are bonded to an earth-wire as well. In older houses with wooden floors, where there is a steel floor-support (in concrete on top of the wooden floor), the steel is earth-wired as well. Is that different form the UK?

@MorzakEV

Жыл бұрын

Yes, most connections in the uk, except for a few rural properties have either a separate earth connection from the local distribution, or an earth connection which is tapped off the neutral as it enters the property (and the neutral is regularly earthed along its path from the transformer to the property). Bonding varies depending on the age of the property and what wiring regs were being worked to. Building metalwork is also bonded, but steelwork is not very common in uk homes (it’s only usually in one off type builds or commercial buildings). It’s amazing to see how differently different countries approach the same problems.

And if that pipe feeds an electric shower? And how tight is the mains earth terminal on the shower?

In the case of an earth fault within a piece of equipment, wouldn’t there be an over current or RCD trip which removes the danger?

Interesting, I have a blue feed pipe and have earthed internal pipping but was told to also earth stake the internal side of the stopcock with 16mm. This video got me thinking, I had wanted to run a soft copper insulated radiator supply a short distance to the garage in the ground, & the boiler is external oil but the oil supply pipe does already run in the ground !!! This is going to be sleeved in the future but never the less getting wet. & what about old house pipes that in concrete floors. The supply in is overhead line & earth with a main RCD.

If a lead water pipe was swapped out for mdpe, would bonding the old still be worth it?

Great Video

My only comment would be, none pure water is somewhat conducive, if the mains water pipe has leak and is therefore earthy could this then cause an issue, if the metal pipe work in the building is not bonded?

From another country so please excuse my ignorance, but given the water is conductive enough to cause electrocution and is likely contacting the literal earth just outside the property at the next metal fitting and thus has potential, why would you not bond it anyway to ensure no potential shocks? In my country our version of TN-C-S also adds an earthing steak at the property to help prevent this situation. If you have disconnected all your bonds from the incoming water supply you can test this by checking the voltage potential from both your taps and electrical Earth. I'm also surprised you don't have an earth steak, what would happen if you touched a metal exterior wall mounted light and the literal earth in the rain?

Is there any point in connecting to the outside of a plastic water or gas pipe? The plastic is an electrical insulator after all.

Would these same regs be applied for an industrial setting?

@codenamenel

2 жыл бұрын

yes, BS7671 covers all electrical installations

I knew it!!! I thought it did not make sense when my electrician said my incoming water mains must be bonded even though it comes through MDPE pipe. Glad this video sorts it out!

@johnburns4017

2 жыл бұрын

In one job the guy came to change the gas meter, saying where is the earth cable to the water stop cock. We told him it is not needed as it was plastic. He left not doing the job. As he was leaving we called him an incompetent lazy ****. We kicked up about it and in also stated it was not needed quoting the reg. And not to send back this incompetent idiot. They apologised sending a different guy.

@James_scott86

2 жыл бұрын

@@johnburns4017 You sound delightful

@Chris-gt3rs

2 жыл бұрын

It’s recommended to still bond if the rest of the installation is all metalwork. What he said in the video about cables being spaced away from pipes is just wishful thinking. Look under your floor boards, cables wrapped around pipes is basically guaranteed, check your boiler, immersion heater, appliance cables behind sinks etc. You’d be deluded if you think everything’s a1 just because you can’t see it.

@johnburns4017

2 жыл бұрын

@@James_scott86 I do not tolerate idiots.

@johnburns4017

2 жыл бұрын

@@Chris-gt3rs With RCDs and RCBOs the need to bond a pipe not connected to earth disappears. No need. As was stated you do not design a system expecting it to be a cowboy job.

I've always been puzzled about bonding, the reason being, every piece of metal pipework is connected to a CPC, maybe not, but I can't think of the scenario when that's not the case. If you have a gas supply and boiler, the CPC for the boiler connects any metal pipework to earth as would any water heater. A gas boiler connects the CPC to both the water and gas, though I do seem to remember that some boiler manufactures don't do this, I'm not certain of that. When the water companies changed the network to plastic a lot of older properties lost their earthing system all together, as it used to be common practice to use the water pipe as very reliable earth. There are thousands of properties, especially older ones that no longer have a proper earthing system. Why aren't there dead people everywhere due to this issue?? Totally agree that there's no point bonding metallic pipework if the incoming pipes are plastic. Great video and thank you.

@efixx

2 жыл бұрын

All very good points, any metal work that does need bonding will need a bigger cable than most CPCs provide though. Stay tuned for more!

@J0nny61

2 жыл бұрын

@@efixx Thank you for replying, when you say most CPC's will need a bigger cable it would depend how the earth fault was initiated. The adiabatic equation proves that most CPC's can withstand a far higher fault current than the protective device will let through. Food for thought.

@scoutjonas

2 жыл бұрын

The need for good grounding is to trip the breaker at a fault. The safety of the house comes from having one single potential on all toucheble surfaces. If all metal pipes, electrical enclosures and house frames are bonded you will not get electicuted even at a fault. No need for good earthing 😀.

@tomorichard

2 жыл бұрын

@@J0nny61 we are not concerned with an internal earth fault when we talk about main bonding. We are concerned about bringing all extraneous metalwork to the same potential as the installation earth. The bonding conductor will be sized to cater for diverted neutral currents

@deang5622

2 жыл бұрын

It's correct name is equipotential bonding. Why? Because all points are at the same potential. Let's not get confused between earthing which CPC's are for, and bonding. They fulfil two different requirements.

If there is any earth leakage current wouldnt the RCD trip ? (Residual currect device.)

I find the fact that this video even needs to exist and many of the comments concerning.

Ive just gone fully electric in my house. The gas is capped off at the meter outside my property (bungalow) there are no exposed service supply pipes exposed above ground level. All metal pipe work is now below floor leve or inside walls. My property has never had any bonding since the house was built in the 60s and ive never had any issues prior to do with fault conditions etc, but ive now been told that my electrical installation cannot be signed off if there is no bonding on both the gas and water. There is no access under the house anymore, so my question is...do I actually need to earth my gas and water if no pipes are exposed above ground level? Am I creating a new problem if I add bonding? I've had the flooring up but there is no way of running 10mm earths from the MET to the incoming Gas & Water supplies. Does this mean my electrical installation is now null & void and I wont receive a cert? Also does my install even need to be earthed taking into consideration the points above. Im having a major headache with this situation so any help or direction would be great appreciated, so I can work out a solution to my problem. Many Thanks.

@efixx

10 ай бұрын

Is the water pipe coming in to the property metal or plastic?

@leeguitarmcr

10 ай бұрын

@@efixx Thanks for your reply. The water pipe is metal.

As almost every gas supply is of MDPE one can only assume no bond to gas is required..or is it?

What if metallic water pipework entered the mass of earth elsewhere in the system after the incomer? I would be bonding then! Think properties with annexes or external water taps… etc.

@markpotter8280

2 жыл бұрын

then you would bond it there, if a property has two or more points where the pipework enters the building you would bond at each point it doesn't happen a lot but I have seen it. For example a house has a main water supply that is metal coming into the property from underground into the kitchen but then it also has a metal pipe going underground from the wc to an outhouse you should bond at both locations within 600mm before any joints yada yada yada

@aidanroutledge6157

2 жыл бұрын

@@markpotter8280 agreed. old pubs with cellars are notorious for metallic water pipework re-entering earth after the incomer which has been replaced with a new plastic incomer. Important to review all extraneous systems and not just assume based on incomer.

MDPE mains supply pipe fittings could incorporate a moulded Brass metallic earth fitting easily to overcome these issues

What about a metal radiator in the bathroom, or a dual fuel towel rail. RCD protection is this in place. A metal bedrame sits in the middle of a floor. I would bond it for bathroom protection even with RCD.

Thank you very much for your videos, I always learn something. I understand the point of not needing to bond a system where the water enters the building in a plastic pipe. But what I struggle with is when that pipe is then connected to copper and buried in the wall to go upstairs for instant. As the walls are connected to the earth (hopefully ;-) ) would this not produce the same earth potential as if the pipe had entered the house in metal. In this scenario would you need to bond the copper pipework?

@rupe53

2 жыл бұрын

as an example: my house is on well water and the well pipe is plastic. However, all the pipes in the house are copper so the building department calls for bonding to a cold water pipe. Granted, the copper water pipe doesn't see a direct earth ground, but there are other electrical items that do connect to the copper pipe. (heating boiler is one) Yes, it's redundant, but that's ok.

@johnharrison373

2 жыл бұрын

Why would the wall be earthed? A plastic DPC would break any earth connection, plus a wall without DPC would have to be damp.

@rupe53

2 жыл бұрын

@@johnharrison373 ... the way the codes are written it's assumed anything concrete will be at least somewhat damp. (foundation, slab, patio, etc) Some codes call for a UFER. (spelling?) That's a term for a grounding system on concrete structures like pools and slabs for hot tubs. In layman's terms the rebar in the concrete needs a wired connection to a ground rod that's outside the concrete.

@tomorichard

2 жыл бұрын

@@johnharrison373 earth potential can be and very often is picked up from pipe work in walls. The question is.. is it enough to present a danger. And that is why a test should be carried out to confirm.

@tomorichard

2 жыл бұрын

If we applied this logic all the time we would be worrying about the potential difference from stone walls internally And installation earth. The point is anything in question should be measured to see if it is extraneous to the installation as outlined in guidance note 8. Anything else is speculation.

Joe you cannot state that if the service pipework is plastic then it does not require main equipotential bonding. It is possible that elsewhere within the property that the installation copper pipework enters the true earth and comes back up again, and therefore can be deemed extraneous. A simple test to prove is what I do,....continuity test between the MET and the pipework. If the reading is

@efixx

2 жыл бұрын

Regulation 411.3.1.2 states it. If the metal pipe enters the ground as you've described then it's a different situation and may well need a bond, if it changes to plastic where it enters and exits the ground it won't. I know what you're saying though Andrew and there'll be much more information on this subject on the way. 😊

@stuartcraigon2003

2 жыл бұрын

Even if it doesn't enter earth and rise again the point of bonding is nothing to do with that.

@stuartcraigon2003

2 жыл бұрын

@@asp217 sure I fixed it for you seeing as you can't read!

Brilliant video, can you please explain this... If I bond onto a in coming plastic water pipe (the end piece is 15mm copper) but the water will act as earth will it not? No one's mentioned this, the fact the pipes are full of water and conduct electricity! So don't you then get the zero value?

@efixx

2 жыл бұрын

Water doesn’t have a low resistance - www.aquaread.com/parameters/resistivity

I am being super dumb here... Why would the bonding not be on the "ground" side of the first valve? Because, if someone has turned the water off, they may be removing a piece of pipe between that valve and in inside of the house, and now the bonding is no longer connected to "earth"?

Good day this is Mike from Amsterdam Holland we got the same problem here but the regulations are you have to bond your tube because when it conduisait it will still conduct the bonding

My boilers gas pipe will bond the water pipes but this may give a potential difference as it's not as direct as bonding the water pipes directly. This applies to indirect earth connections via an immersion heater, the motorised valves, a waste disposal etc etc. The pipes to radiators or an outside tap may also be contacting the ground at various points so I think pipes should be bonded regardless to assure continuity of earth protection, seems daft not to.

@keirstitt8277

Жыл бұрын

The gas pipe might be bonded but why does putting supplementary bonding on water at point of entry help? If you need supplementary bonding - which given exemption for RCD protected circuits you can't imagine how you ever would in a modern domestic installation - then you'd install the supplementary bonding in the bathroom not at the stopcock.

"We can't bond just to cover poor installation" This is a correct statement... However. I was receiving shocks and tingles from my New washing machine and kitchen sink, turns out Mice had chewed through the Flex feeding the washer. This left the live conductor touching the water feed pipe and therefore livened-up the whole unbonded house water installation. Makes you think ?

@gteaz

2 жыл бұрын

Sounds like your metal pipes had no earth.

@assassinlexx1993

2 жыл бұрын

There is a difference between grounding and bonding. The washing machine should have a proper ground wire that is wired to house grounded system. The flex cover should be bonded too.

When you connect the earth to the neutral, do you neutralise the earth or earth the neutral?? If the transformer is a single phase step down transformer, I think it’s much more helpful to think of neutralising the earth. Voltage is always the potential between two points and therefore the earth is only at 0 V potential if it is locally bonded to the neutral.

@deang5622

Жыл бұрын

The use of the terminology of "neutralising" is not conventional and is not used. Keep away from it. It you are not using the right terminology, then the question is, is that because the user's knowledge is limited?

@TimmyBoja

Жыл бұрын

@@deang5622 I use the word "neutralise" because invokes a change of perspective. It means to make neutral. Neutral is defined in the front of BS7671. Earthing is used throughout BS7671 but in my experience most people seem to think that the Earth has magic powers. It doesn't. NB: "magic powers" is not defined in BS7671 but can often be used synonymously with "magnets"

Most of what I was going to say has been covered below, especially Tom Capons post, but all you need to do is ask a simple question. Will bonding it make the installation less safe? obviously not, Will bonding make the installation more safe in the event of a fault? Yes it will, so you put it back. you do not know that plastic pipe has not been installed elswhere in the building that has isolated this part of the conductive pipework from other bonding at boilers, immersion heaters etc. Regs are there to provide safety( or used to be!), It is the engineers job to ensure safety, not the regs, and anything done to enhance safety is good. Mere compliance is not good enough, just an A*se covering excercise. The attitude that," the regs say I dont have to do it so I won't" is what kills people. I was trained on IEE 14th metric 1970 and have CGND Electrical Engineering. I am afraid I have little faith in the IET as the regs are difficult to understand, contradictory, and open to interpretation, which the IEE regs were not. We were trained on every regulation till we had been through the entire book TWICE, and then examined. You were allowed one retake if you failed, and then you were out of the college, and out of the industry, today, everyone passes

@JC-jv5xw

2 жыл бұрын

Totally agree about the regs. Continual incremental changes to generate more revenue for themselves and their manufacturer sponsors. The whole book needs a complete revision with thorough proof reading to eliminate the confusing terminology (who thought up the distinctions between extraneous/exposed/equipotential ! ) and numerous ambiguous contradictions. And why the need to change section numbers at all - as if there were not enough subsection levels?

I have been told I don't have bonding in my property, I am having electric car and so need to get the pod fixed, they won't do it until I get bonding where will I find it please. Dammed if I have a clue .

@efixx

2 жыл бұрын

It should be where your water stop-cock is and where the gas meter is. If it's installed and if it's needed.

But, what about the water inside the pipe transferring bonding in the metal piping in the home?

I’ve dealt with a live gas main entering properties, it’s scary stuff, deffo bond.

@scottrobinson5594

2 жыл бұрын

Gas in Plastic?

@gteaz

2 жыл бұрын

@@scottrobinson5594 Yup, it works just as good as metal.

actually, the issue with metal piping in the ground is just the opposite. the earth is NOT a low impedance path to ground, and the bonding network is. so by bonding metal service piping, you are bringing that piping to the same potential as your ground reference. it's not such a big deal with household voltages, but you can get a palpable voltage gradient if distribution voltage starts leaking to ground. in the US, the relevant clause in the code is to the effect of, metal piping must be bonded if there is a possibility of it becoming energized. the usual interpretation of that is that a metal fitting under a sink is not likely to be energized unless it is connected to an appliance - and the appliance will be bonded, so there you have it.

Does the sink require bonding?

How do we know the integrity of the insulation on the pipe 20-30 years on? Entropy is a demanding mistress, The plastic coationg on the pipe doesn look dissimilar to powder coating an that goes south in 20 years on car chassis that are not in the damp earth all the time, I guess there is a way to measure this though.

Very well put. I'm of the same mind it makes sense not to connect it but having it connected doesn't seem like it would be that much harm and would be extra insurance in-case of an unintended fault. I'm not thinking poor workmanship that should be the above all standard is that accounts for so many things. I'm thinking water heaters and boilers which are already grounded anyway having a fault or other water loving electric appliances. And well water is non-conductive in a pure state most water has some minerals in it so it wouldn't be truly nonconductive. So does this mean if I have plastic piping going to my tub I can make toast in the bath? Well apart from the GFCI/RCD.

Assuming the water main in the street is cast iron which is still in quite common use, the water itself will be at zero potential. You may then have a couple of meters of plastic service pipe to the house so by the time the water gets into the copper of the domestic pipework it will not be at zero potential but still quite low. Water is not such a good conductor as copper but still does conduct otherwise why the numerous regulations re installation in potentially damp/wet areas. So if the bonding to the domestic side of the plumbing is no longer required what am I getting wrong.

@Chlorate299

2 жыл бұрын

A couple of meters of water in a plastic pipe will have a high enough impedance at mains voltage to be effectively an open circuit.

I would still bond if it’s an existing installation or pipework. Somewhere on the pipework could be bonded to earth but not the rest of the cpc

More vids from under the sink please, this could be a feature

@efixx

2 жыл бұрын

😂 good idea 👍

What about metal water pipe that goes to plastic in the building? (Im not from the UK but this stuff is interesting)

@efixx

2 жыл бұрын

Good question, if the incoming pipe was metal I'd bond that bit to comply, very low risk though.

Does this rule also apply to gas.....if its mdpe ? I'm assuming so

@daniel049973

2 жыл бұрын

Gas still needs bonding even if it’s plastic supply, I don’t know why, still working in the old days I expect

@coralbay00

2 жыл бұрын

@@daniel049973 cheers. Don't quite get the difference between them though. If gas plastic or water plastic 🤔 🙄 result is the same potentially regarding fault path or lack of 🤷‍♂️

@daniel049973

2 жыл бұрын

I assume it’s gas regs but a gas man can’t do it

What about fault conditions of say an electric shower? If there was no bonding the supply pipe would be at mains potential.

@efixx

2 жыл бұрын

The CPC within the supply cable to the shower will be connected to the metallic parts of the shower including the heating element. In the event of a fault this would cause the RCD and or the mCB protecting the circuit to operate.

I heard about an EICR recently that had missing earth bonding labelled as a C1. Tennants had to be relocated as the rental agency freaked out. Shocking!

@alouisschafer7212

2 жыл бұрын

A missing bond is a C1? Thats crazy.

@andy.underwater.videos

Жыл бұрын

@@alouisschafer7212 i agree its not immediately dangerous

My thought is the pipe should be bonded as soon as it turns to metal inside the house; Reasons 1-Do you know the whole supply pipe is plastic? 2-i have seen supply pipes where the last foot has been converted to plastic but the rest underground is metal. I know tap water has a quite a high resistance per metre inside plastic but it would still provide a conductive path. 3-What if something is changed in the future and ended up grounding your copper pipes. Better to locate the cable & clamp than do it at a later date.

Unless the incoming water supply is demineralised water then it will be conductive (If there were any more minerals in our hard water local supply, it would be supplied in sacks). Regardless of the entry to the house, some of the downstream supply pipework may be metal anyway so there is possibly still a risk. Has there been any investigation as to this being credible? Edit:- I have read some more of the earlier comments regarding water being conductive and I would add this observation based on my experiences in power stations- Demineralised water is non conductive, in fact it is used to cool HV stator windings in large alternators. Insulating pipework lies between the windings and the pumps. However, town water supply is conductive otherwise the electrode boiler (that was used for emergency use in part of the plant) would not work, as it depended on high currents passing through the water within. My personal choice would be to bond anyway, as the IET rules on earthing seem to change rather often.

JOe's analysis of the potential between the neutral at the entrance and the grounding conductor at the transformer is a bit hyperbolic. In the US NEC, there shall be a local grounding conductor in contact with the earth and connected to the ground potential terminal in the breaker box (that is the Green conductor). Bonding to the incoming water supply pipe is one method of creating a grounding connection. Other methods are to connect the earthing conductor to a grounding rod of at least 8 feet (3 meters) driven into the ground, or the attach the conductor to the metal reinforcing rods in the concrete of the foundation. (Ref. NEC-1999 article 250-C). Any non-conductive pipe shall be bridged across from the grounding electrode to the metallic interior pipes, and the exterior grounding water pipe shall be in direct contact with the earth for 3.05 meters. There is another regulation in the IRC abound the distance from the entrance of the metallic pipe to the electrical earthing conductor.

Whether metal or plastic pipe, surely the water in the pipe is a conductor in its own right? Where does that fit in the calculations?

My house has plastic pipes coming in, but I don't know that there aren't any parts of the internal metalwork touching anything conductive that's in the ground... In fact I'm pretty sure that the metal pipe to the oil tank will be connected through the combi-boiler. This old install is bonded and I'm keen to keep it that way

@djalasdair4984

2 жыл бұрын

I also have plants touching my outside tap

bonding is there for failure a broken element in your boiler can create the whole thing to come live .. if lightning hits pipework in your loft it needs to go to ground... a modern house were all the pipeworks made out of plastic I will agree.. what your showing needs bonding

What if the joint between the plastic and metalic pipe leaks and a flow of water goes down to real earth?

I would leave a earth bond floating around the incoming water on a new rewire just incase there is some major change to the water supply...unlikely but the hassle of not having it around is more... But not connect... and just leave in board but mark it not connected... Depends lots of variables..

Silly question then... What about the water in the pipes? The plastic underground AND in the copper in the house. Isn't the water grounded?

@MrSJT

2 жыл бұрын

Ions in the water makes it conductive but you would never get enough ions to get the reading lower than 22kohm for it to be rendered extraneous. See my main comment.

Very interesting. I have a TT system with a plastic water pipe coming in the property and plastic for most, but not all, of the installation. Thoughts?

@CarlCosby

2 жыл бұрын

Then no need for bonding if it’s plastic coming in.

Hi Joe, I would still bond! The reason being that as water isteslf conducts electricity it becomes a return path and thefore a potential difference to the installations 'earth' value as regards an equipotential difference! Regards David

So gas pipework dosnt need bonding in thr meter box

Great vid I’m sure, but things appear and one doesn’t see them appear ( or at least I didn’t ) a flash or a circle ⭕️ maybe pulsating would help the less canny amongst us, ..😊

If its not extraneous then why bond it, applying protective bonding to a conductive item which is not an extraneous-conductive-part might lead to the risk that under fault conditions these items may become raised to the fault voltage for the time it takes the protective device to disconnect.

Think the question should be , is the internal pipework an extraneous conductive part or not.

I would bond internal metallic pipes because of the risk of they being in contact to the line conductors at some point. That should not happen in a well done electrical installation, but accidents happen and there are bad electricians who will leave wires exposed near metallic pipes.