If you are a new rider or a rider who wants to continue to grow (That should be all of us ;) ) and you are not a Member at MCrider you are missing out on the best part of MCrider. Go to www.MCrider.com/Member and get access to the Forums and Field Guide. - The Forum is an active, friendly place where riders share riding tips, ideas, travel photos, and show off their new motorcycles. Riders and instructors from all over the world are active on the forums and ready to share in the adventure with you. - The Field Guide is a section of the forums that have very specific training exercises that you can work on in any open parking lot to develop your riding skills. In addition to these resources, you can discuss every MCrider video, suggest future training videos, read and share gear reviews, and more. By becoming a member you help support MCrider and keep the weekly videos coming but you also get access to a world of riders who share tips and techniques to help us all enjoy the ride and increase our skills. www.MCrider.com/Member

@hussanshahid2789

3 жыл бұрын

Sir I want to know one thing that can a one eyed drive legally in US

I have never understood the concept of buying the cheapest helmet available. It's the only thing between your head and the pavement! My dad always told me;" if you've got a $10 head, wear a $10 helmet..."

Find a new motorcycle helmet and help support MCrider. mcrider.com/revzilla

@369Hdz

4 жыл бұрын

just bought my first street bike, an 83 honda cb550 nighthawk, thanks for all the help sir!!

Thanks for your program! after not riding for 5-6 years and the type of bike I ride I sure needed to be refreshed and corrected in some cases, your channel is much needed, I recommend it to anyone who wants to enjoy riding safely .

I learned so much from you mr MCrider, like how to properly look through a turn, and how to properly do a U turn. Keep up the awesome work!

Very helpful information... I was not aware of the difference/weakness between a full face and modular helmet. Thank you MCrider.!

Kevin, Thanks for another great video. Common sense, but beautifully delivered. Your videos and thoughtful analysis has improved my riding immeasurably. I wish I had learned some of this stuff 50 years ago when I started on my first dirt bike. Following your excellent advice and tips I now regularly practice my riding technique in empty car parks (parking lots) and ride much better because of it. God bless you. Spence

I love Revzilla, but I forgot all about MotoLiberty! I used to work right there when they opened, I haven't been back in years. Glad you reminded me.

Fantastic and really helpful video. Thanks for taking the time to film and share.

Great information. I just discovered your channel and I enjoy it. Thank you for caring for riders.

Love that the impact zone diagram is my Sedici Strata helmet

I had a Simpson bandit as one of my first helmets, it made me feel claustrophobic. I then had a series of three quarter helmets but I was always nervous thinking about the safety of them. I finally found the Bell Bullet and I have full vision and no claustrophobic feeling . Thanks for another great video

Hello Kevin. I am a new rider and prior to taking the MSF course, I watched a number of your videos. Thanks for all of the excellent content! I wanted to let you know that I ordered the HJC IS-17 helmet from RevZilla in the US and it turns out that it is not ECE rated. To make a long story short, there are apparently (at least) two versions of this helmet - one for the US market and one for the EU market. The EU version is ECE rated and is the version that SHARP tested and gave a 5 star rating. The US version is only DOT approved - not Snell or ECE. If you google this helmet, there is an article floating around which touches upon this issue. I called HJC and they confirmed that the two helmets, while having identical names, are not the same - the interiors are different.

Great vid thanks! I'm cursed with a "long oval" head & the Arai Signet Q/X is the only thing I've found so far that doesn't give me a hot spot.

This one of the best episodes, I really learned a lot from you thanks for making this videos it's help a lot.

Thanks for the information. The content, organization, and narrative is very well done. I had not seen the chart diagramming the impact zones. I'm just beginning to investigate riding, and the chart was important.

Great job man,very helpful for a newbie like me.

Excellent info sharing - thanks bro, never thought about shelf life before - but I will now.

Could you also make a video on other protective gears like jackets, shoes, etc?

@mrsupertjy

6 жыл бұрын

Leifenguard agree, having problem choosing them too

Kevin, you always have the best informative riding videos, THANK YOU.

Loving your video's...keep up the good work,all the best from England.

Thanks Kevin, Good info never thought about the foam breaking down from just sitting around. Time to the my bride a new helmet..

A motorcycle dealer here in the UK who had been in the trade for decades told me that the number 1 rule when buying a helmet is "Buy one that fits". It may seem a bit obvious but a 100 quid helmet that fits you properly will be better than a 500 quid helmet that is too big with a well known name adorning it.

Great talk, I really liked your discussion regarding personal protection and level of safety.

I too am from the DFW (Dallas-Fort Worth, for those of you who don't know) area. As a new rider, I fully agree that Moto Liberty is the shop to go to if you want to see, hold, and try on a variety of gear, especially helmets. The staff is very helpful and accommodating. Best brick and mortar cycle shop I've step foot in for gear.

Great video! Very informative! Thanks!

Great video, lots of info you helped me a lot. I'm looking right now for a helmet but not much in my area, mainly online.. Also I have prescription glasses which may be a big issue. Thanks for sharing.

Thank you, that was very informative! I wanted to order an helmet online but after watching your video, I drove to a local motorcycle gear shop, to buy my first helmet. The model I chose was 40$ more expensive, then the cheapest one I could find online (for the same helmet, that is),...but it was worth every cent! I had the opportunity to try on many different helmets from different brands (they fit differently, even though they are the same size),...and I was guided through the whole process, by the very competent and helpful shop staff. I actually drove there to try on a specific helmet, but endet up buying a completely different ( and slightly more expensive) one, just because the fit was so much better! They even had a motorcycle in a wind tunnel, where you could test the helmet under "riding conditions!", check if the seal on the neck is tight...and things like that. Guys, If you need a helmet, don't order online, even though it is more expensive. The right fit is very important and your head is more worth than the 40 bucks, you may have saved.

Really nice info. and an awesome channel. Thank you Kevin.

Thanks for the heads up on Moto Liberty!

To answer the question "What is the best helmet to wear?".. It's very similar to the question "What is the best Pistol to carry?" I believe they have similar answers.. Best helmet - is the best helmet that you will actually wear every time you ride. It does not do any good to have a $500/$600 helmet, if half the time you leave it at home or in the scoot boot.. Is a full helmet better than a shell helmet, hell yeah.. But if you won't wear a full face helmet in 95 degree weather with 125% humidity, then a shell helmet is better than no helmet because it's too hot and you left it home. Another thing to consider, some people have neck issues and just can't support the weight of a full face helmet all the time.. So again, if they can wear a shell helmet, it's better than the full face helmet sitting at home while you are out riding..

Great guide! I watched this video before ordering a HJC FG-ST in Medium size. It was very uncomfortable in the beginning, but after a few hours it wore itself into a comfortable fit. Without the video I would probably have gotten a Large or XL even, comfortable but way too big for my noggin!

Hi Kevin, Something to add for those windy day rides is to stay hydrated. The wind will sick out moisture quite fast. I use a camel pack on windy road trips. Also hot days, works great.

I have a nice agv helmet, it was about 250, but it fits great, has a nice switch down tinted visor, i can put my glasses on comfortably and its rated well. Seeing the 500+ dollar arai helmets is insane.

I went down on my motorcycle in 2015. My full face helmet saved my life and my face. I'll ride no other way

@OperationFoxley19441

7 жыл бұрын

I got knocked off my motorcycle by another road user in May 2017 UK and the full face helmet saved my face and my life!

@vegasstacker3857

6 жыл бұрын

Full face Snell approved helmet saved my life as well, broke a few bones but my face is still as handsome as before.

@LITTLEBRAT775081

5 жыл бұрын

does head budting a person dmg the lining on it ?

@fatmikecj

5 жыл бұрын

@@LITTLEBRAT775081 Yes, it's a helmet, not a boxing glove.

@chuckthesham5195

5 жыл бұрын

I tried going down on my bike last year and all I got was a g-d burned mouth!

Colour is also big difference...black is so less visible than white ...i choose yellow now...not my favourite colour but did it for visibility...being motordriver since my 20., now 53... i always try to see what motorcycles make them almost invisible, for me when i drive the car...did some intensive 4 day course to become instructor in Belgium....and i thought i had 20 year experience...but boy, i was wrong!!! I became humble and eager to learn even more...it was a lifechanger and lifesaver. Man u hit the throught with yr videos sir! Thanks Bob the belgian

Its always amazing to listen to everyone's take on helmets and how they break them down to say what they feel is good or not with helmets.. I never want to learn how good or bad my helmet is. I will always wear one and hope that I make the best choice for my money and safety....

Hi again Kevin. Cool article. I would also add those: - if the helmet don't fit, then sooner or later (rather sooner than later) you will find yourself thinking of how fast I can get it off, reather than thinking of what is going on on the road in fornt of me and around. - airflow is a key when it comes to confort (save the helmet fits) - it is not the matter of how many airtakes it has, but the internal design. My Shoei XR1000 only has 3 intakes but it beats any other one I have tried. Now I mostly use Shark EvoOne, but it has not match to Shoei, even it is white. - and where I come to the last but not least - color is also very important! white helmet will get not nearly as hot as some 40% of what black one will. It is also much better visible on the road, especially when it gets dark. And, at the end - there are some models that looks like not a full face (3/4 or jests for example) but acctually they are full face, Schubert J1 to name one. It's obviously not matching the level of protection for the reall fullface, but surely better than ordinary jet or 3/4

When I got back to riding I went with DOT & ECE rated. it is a modular, but the ECE rating offsets that (for me). I went to my local Cycle Gear shop and test fitted several to find the exact fit rather than going off measurements. My son bought two helmets at the same shop, both the same brand, each in different sizes, so I buy by fit not measurements. Good video.

Kevin, Thank you very much for another very useful video. I have been watching all your videos with great interest. I have been riding for 45years and taken lots of training courses, but I am always looking out for new resources to keep me safe and improve my riding. I have found very good solid advice in your videos, particularly with regard to being visible. I notice how well your hi-viz jacket stands out against the wall behind you. Have you noticed how well bright yellow helmets stand out on the road? Like you, my preference is for a Shoei helmet but I have found them rather expensive. Then I found that solid colours are much cheaper and I could get a GT air in solid yellow for 250 GBP (under 325 USD). It's a great helmet and really stands out. Thanks also for your link to Revzilla. From their reviews I bought a brilliant all in one suit the Olympia Odyssey, which is highly visible, very easy to put on and take off and offers lots of protection. I can recommend thus to anyone who likes to ride with full protection then step out in their street clothes. Thanks again, keep up the good work, it is greatly appreciated in the U.K., I have recommended your series to many friends, mainly ex cops and motorcycle trainers, who have found it very useful.

Thanks Kevin for the excellent and perfectly informative video on how to choose a proper helmet! You just got a new SUBSCRIBER out of me! =] Patrikus Love+Peace+Health Pathos+Ethos+Magicos

I hardly ever give any YT video a like. This time I simply couldn't resist. You deserved it sir, well done.

Helmets also keep bugs and road debris out of your face. All the bugs that I clean off of my face shield and all the little rocks I hear thwack off of my helmet would have been in my face. And +1 on the Revzilla recommendation, Revzilla also price matches and their customer service is excellent. Great video as always and thanks for doing what you do.

The last and best helmet I bought was a Shoei. It's on the shelf now and still looks like new (apart from dust and dirt and squashed insects) but yes the lining and other inner parts are breaking down. Fun fact - it's winter here now and the old winter gloves come in very handy. Cheers. :)

After one has been riding for a while, the aqcuire lots of gear. I have an HJC CL-17 black with hi-viz , an HJC RPHA-10 for track use, super lightweight. I now just got a Shark Evoline that is actually ECE rated and is a modular, pretty neat design that I saw the Toronto Police(Canada) wearing and looked into it. I grew up rding dirtbikes, motocross racer at one point, so safety gear is part of riding.

On this video you mention the shelf life of helmets, it was useful information. Could you please make another video on how often we should be replacing jackets, pants, gloves, armor, ext. Or if you already have then please share that link with me as I haven't been able to find one from mcrider. Thank you!

Riding without a helmet for me is not an option at all.

@gorillaau

7 жыл бұрын

Martin Squier I have ridden my motorbike a very short distance on private property but can't imagine hitting public roads without a lid.

That was great information. Thanks!

I am working on a full body protection system and helmet wear for testing with DOT or EC etc. I really appreciate your dedication to the reality vs hype of riding. I do 40KM a day round trip plus errands. Full leathers are hard on short trips(its 30+ degrees here); but I want year round all temp protection. I am almost there with prototype; but want full custom (one by one)exoskeletons and helmets using different materials and forming structures than the current mass production. My wife is from Denton and Im a Texas boy; so everything you say is understandable....haha.. I hope to meet/chat with you soon. Great job promoting safety and the shop. Im a new rider with 3 kids. i wanna be cool; but the underlying mechanics are what I seek online and from trainers. You are my favorite subscription.

Geez you read my mind, flying back to the States in a couple of weeks to Philly. First thing I'll do is head to Revzilla to buy a new helmet and jacket.... great timing!

@SmallSpoonBrigade

7 жыл бұрын

I'd recommend buying in person unless you're replacing a helmet with the same model. Fit makes almost as much difference as the initial design does.

great information thanks

HJC i70 is the new version of the i17. I plan to get one as an upgrade from the HJC 3/4 face helmet I’m currently wearing.

thank you Kevin for all that you do,i subscribed to your channel and became a patreon.ive watched all your videos(even the' That Eye video' that i enjoyed) and im taking a MSC later this month.im almost 52 and believe it or not a new rider! i look forward to watching all the videos and using the Field Guide.

@MCrider

7 жыл бұрын

Awesome, thanks for watching. Best of luck with your motorcycle course!

@geboner

6 жыл бұрын

Thank you sir! i passed and got my class M!

@Bikerbug2020

6 жыл бұрын

Billy G - I started riding at 50 and find Kevin’s videos really educational as well. Has good content and not just blah blah blah.

@cliff8675

6 жыл бұрын

I just got my class M a few weeks prior to turning 52. Thirty years ago we didn't have motorcycle endorsements (that I know of) where I lived. I've gone through a lot of the channel as well to be a better rider than I was. I have several classes that I'm saving funds for, including a California Superbike School class. One thing I learned from martial arts (that I started at 50) is when you train at 10, living at 7 is actually comfortable.

I really like the look of the Bell bullet. But at the shop when I tried one on, it was way too tight around the cheaks & forehead turning my face red. It was a XXL & fit for oval shaped heads only. I can only wear intermediate oval.

Great video, great info...reminds me it's time for a new helmet

So I finally made the decision to buy a modular helmet after wearing a half helmet for years. It was the only aspect in which I may not have been fully protected. I always wear riding pants, jacket, boots gloves, hi-viz vest, and put LED lights on my bike. I continuously practice emergency braking, slow speed maneuvers, cornering etc., but couldn’t bring myself to wear a full face or modular helmet. I re-watched this video the other day and made the plunge. Thanks Kevin.

Great video, excellent explanation.

the best video on helmet review I have seen.. Awesome

Ive been riding for over 30 years. Ive had all kinds of helmets. Recently I developed tinnitus so I started researching the quietist helmets. I ended up getting a Shoei GT Air 2 on sale. Ive had it for 7 years now and will keep it until it needs replacing. So quiet, comfortable, with built in sun visor. But if I would have had to pay full price it would have been over $700. So I got lucky to get it at about half that.

Snell approved helmet saved my life, I wouldn't wear anything else. Just ordered a back protector from Revzilla recently and they really impressed me with their fast shipping and delivery.

Great info. Thank you.

Great video, great advise. Thanks. Barry

Thank you. Very helpful.

Kevin, Thanks for your perspective on helmets. I'm looking for a fresh lid for my trip to Crested Butte Colorado. I'm riding my 690 from Nevada City to Austin Nevada then off at the Pony Express trail. I'm looking for a dual sport helmet with a drop down sun shade and a nice tight shield that seals good. Also I would like some awesome graphics that have some nice Orange colors. So the hunt continues !!

Thanks for the info.

I was planning on buying a shark jethelmet, this video changed my mind. Thank you

Great video! I have always worn low cost/high value helmets because I'm changing them out every 5 years, and that's what I can afford. It makes shopping a challenge My last 3 were two Scorpion EXO 400 full-face models and a Bilt Modular (the Cycle Gear store brand). I've tried on dozens and looked hard at the quality. The Scorpions were labeled as DOT and Snell there a tad heavy, but beautifully made approved and I loved them both. The first one allowed me to walk away unscathed after being rear-ended at a traffic signal. I never expected the Bilt to be as good as it was but it has been excellent. Yes there may be better ones out there but these have performed well and my gear budget has to cover everything from head to toe - not just helmets. Armored jacket and pants, gloves, boots with orthotics, neck nut, base layers for warm and cold weather and a back brace with a spine protector (and, yes, I wear all the gear all the time.m. I

Great post as always Kevin. Im saving and sharing it with others. Question: what is the bike behind you with the gold forks?

@mrbrown3546

4 жыл бұрын

That's his Tenere' in the background

I have a Schuberth C3 Pro which I think is excellent, but surprisingly it gets average ratings by the independent UK testers. What I like about it is the modular design makes it much easier to wear spectacles. I did put an older one to the test with a high side at speed, and it remained closed - no issue with the hinge deforming, or opening.

Good video Kevin. I always wear a helmet but was just using a DOT half helmet. On our big bike trip this year one of our friends went down. He had just switched to a full face helmet saved his life! I was always a believer in helmets. I now own a Shoei Neotec modular helmet.

@MCrider

7 жыл бұрын

Once you get used to a full face or modular it is really the way to go.

@klh3244

7 жыл бұрын

MCrider yes I started with a 3/4 with a full shield and that helps.

@SmallSpoonBrigade

7 жыл бұрын

It helps minimally. You'll get some protection against being hit by rocks and sticks and that's about it. You're going to get no protection at all in case of a face plant. Modular are a bit better, but be mindful that they lock properly both down and up and that they're tested as a FF helmet.

@Supernova12034

6 жыл бұрын

still would be better as an actual full face helmet, you can get biltwell helmets that still let you 'feel the wind' while offering the best protection

@I_am_archie

5 жыл бұрын

@@Supernova12034 if you have a round head the biltwell may just fit.

Thank you for your info.

Another great video! Thank you. It's interesting to me that neck braces seem to be overlooked. We are concerned with head injures but I wonder how many riders who are involved in a crash with a helmet on have serious neck injuries. I personally do not yet wear a neck brace but I'm thinking its time to look into getting one.

@HJC1950

4 жыл бұрын

I wear a Helite Turtle air-bag vest - it provides protection of a neck brace but also far more protection.

@kf8575

4 жыл бұрын

Any impact to the head hard enough to cause a neck injury, if not wearing a crash helmet is likely to be a hard enough inpact to the head to cause a fatality

Great Video Thanks for sharing!! Can I ask you a question? What do you think about the Bell Bullitt Helmet, do you think is a good helmet in terms of safety or just a good looking one? Thank you Sir!!

Having just bought another bike, I picked up an HJC IS16 for £59 or about $78 from a big local discount sales outlet. It is the best fitting helmet I've ever owned. I still use my flip front for running about locally, but for everything else the HJC, the only problem is that it is a little noisy.

Looking for more info on helmets that accommodate my prescription glasses. I get that the modulars are not as safe, but hey, I can put the helmet on over my specks, when I use my modular. I realize you don't have experience here, (in spite of your crazy pupil!). But I would buy and wear a different helmet if I could get a nice fit over my glasses, something that does not make the glasses move side to side, or pinch on my head.

Hi Kevin thanks for your great vids! I have one Q.: I read that the HJC IS-17 is a noisy helmet. Is that true what is your opinion?

I have a Scorpion Exo 500 that is DOT, ECE and rated by Sharp as better than most. Safety first. I go for the 2 day MFS BRC at the end of next month, excited to get my license. Rode for two years on a permit but let it lapse.

Excellent video very​ informative. Thanks L

Total agree about SHARP test. My current dome protector was purchased based on the research from SHARP. What amazed me most was amount of testing SHARP actually do and they test to destruction.

Great video! Where can I buy that cool hat btw?

great video and love the humour. Jason

Thank you Kim.Very helpfull video.I probably get the same helmet you have.Have a nice life :)

Very good and informative video.Thanks Kevin. Interested in your thoughts about the colour of a full face helmet Bright yellow or green just have to be safer from a visibility perspective. Any time I see a rider wearing one I can see them from far away and it always catches my attention. What are your thoughts? If you have covered this already in a video, apologies.

One thought on modular helmets being safer than full face helmets: If an accident is severe, i.e. the patient is at risk of vomiting or the need for ventilation, a full face helmet must be removed. I've heard from doctors in a hospital specialized on vertebral trauma that about 2/3 of their paraplegia cases after motorbike accidents could have been avoided had those helmets stayed on the head and the neck had not been exposed to excessive movement (this includes removal by trained personnel like paramedics). Now if that helmet is modular - simply open it. You can fit a mask for ventilation, you can insure free airways and you don't need to mess with removal of that helmet. (In hospitals, A&E departments - at least where I live - have special equipment to remove helmets without causing further trauma to those broken vertebrae in the neck. So the risk of real sad outcomes can probably be drastically reduced if the helmet can stay on the head until the patient arrives in the hospital...)

@charlenecorriganfelker426

6 жыл бұрын

Doc Felix Thank you for this ! I have ALWAYS thought about HOW the full helmets where removed after an accident ! I have neck issues from a car accident when I was young , and putting on a full helmet is a kin to having a to tight turtleneck pulled over your head as a child !! I hate the feeling , and the thought of how will this thing come off if I'm down !

You did not recommend flip-open helmets, but I live in Singapore and since the last four years here in SG I wear my beloved Sch****** C**** with an integrated intercom. Every day riding to work and back. Going for rides to Malaysia and Thailand. Many times I look at other helmets and I am tempted, but this one is still the best for me. Why? - Availability of spare parts ( inner liners, visors, fixtures for visors etc.) - The possibility to open the helmet to talk or simply to let air in ( South East Asia is really hot and humid) - The fully integrated bluetooth headset and intercom. - To close the helmet when going on the highway or twisty mountain roads. I do not work for that company, neither do I sell those helmets. I just love the versatility and quality.

Love the info

Kevin have you or can you do a video on some tips on animals crossing your path on a motorcycle thanks Rob

Regarding fit, having a comfortable helmet in the showroom is different from riding it at 80mph or with transverse wind. If you wear glasses at 80mph your glasses may be at a different place in the helmet compared with where they were when you started the ride.

Very useful info. I have a long oval, peanut shaped head (front and back of my head is wider then the middle), and it's been, so far, very difficult to find a helmet that fits properly and is comfortable to wear. Not many manufacturers make long oval full face helmets, so for now I'm stuck with my modular because it's what fits comfortably so I'll actually wear it. The last full face I tried seemed good, until I went for a ride and 45 minutes later I couldn't stand to even have it on my head. I pulled over, took it off and strapped it to my backpack and rode back home with no head protection because it was causing pressure points on my forehead to upset my stomach. I thought "either turn around and ride home with it on, risking passing out or being distracted, or take it off and carefully and fully alert ease home with no head protection". It's frustrating, and I'm still on the hunt for the right full face, for now my modular works so it's what I wear but I want to do track days and that requires a full face.....

Wow, I got my very first bike last week and the helmet I bought is HJC IS 17 helmet.

I have both the HJC and Shoei helmet. Shoei is a better and more comfortable fit but the HJC is a good helmet.

@MCrider

7 жыл бұрын

I agree, I like Shoei better but HJC is a great value.

Providing a much fuller understanding of gear, Thanks!

Arai XD-4 here. Tried the comparable Shoei but it made my eyeglasses pop up where the Arai did not.

I live in FL, so I bought a 3qtr helmet so that I can keep myself cool, are there any full face helmets with an A/C in it?

I have a very comfortable full face helmet, it has a 4 star Snell rating. the brand name is MT, I love it, MT helmet and empty head, suits my sense of humor too. When are you going to talk about riding gloves?. Thanks for all your road strategy videos, almost never have incidents, and I live in Cape Town, South Africa.

I ride with only Shoei helmets because I believe my helmet was hand sewn by a beautiful virgin Japanese geisha. A man has got to have a fantasy.

@Bikerbug2020

6 жыл бұрын

raw data LOL 😂, too funny.... you need to watch the video on Shoei helmets, might find her in it!

@MarkSmith-js2pu

5 жыл бұрын

raw data , the Asian waitress girl in Mad Men google it

@sgt6711

5 жыл бұрын

No...i had saw the shoei factory once...its handle by many grandma....ha ha ha

@xpusostomos

4 жыл бұрын

Shoei seemed most comfortable to me which supports the virgin hypothesis.

Kevin I can seem to find a HJC-SI17 with a transitions face shield. Was the shield you mentioned that you have stock?

What do you think about full face helmets with air pump to fit better on your head/face?

"you really don't wanna be wearing a used helmet" -high school football coaches have left the chat.

Hi , on your recommendation I’m gonna get the HJC IS 17,