I have heard these claims for years and I believed them, because I wanted to believe Christianity was false. I'm still an atheist and antitheist but when I had the opportunity to study and research for myself, I found all the stories were fiction. I realised that it is all too easy to be sucked into bias, even whilst criticising religious people for their bias..

@vmonk2

11 ай бұрын

Well said. It was easy to believe, wasn’t it? Lesson learned

@ritawing1064

11 ай бұрын

Well said indeed.

@aramkitkhemoambe9801

11 ай бұрын

you need to read R. carrier's works ASAP

@theoutspokenhumanist

11 ай бұрын

@@aramkitkhemoambe9801 I am very familiar with Richard Carrier's work. He makes many excellent arguments but I do not agree with him on the mythicist question.

@theoutspokenhumanist

11 ай бұрын

@@aramkitkhemoambe9801 I am already familiar with Richard Carrier's work and have read most but not all of his books. He is a fine scholar and makes many excellent points but I am not in agreement with him about the mythicist question.

To me the most ridiculous of these claims are the "born on December 25th" ones. No two of these religions shared a calendar, and none used the Gregorian calendar. That's leaving aside the question about how widespread the belief was that Jesus was born on December 25th.

@davidholman48

Ай бұрын

You're right. I hadn't thought of that.

The Krishna one cracks me up. He was the 8th child born of Devaki and Vasudeva and Kamsa had killed all 7 of his siblings, so virgin birth is quite laughable. He also performed miracles in the sense that just about every main character in the Mahabharata performed superhuman acts, because it’s a mythological epic. The annoying thing about it is that if you just take the story of Krishna as myth to convey eternal truths, it’s an absolutely amazing epic with a lot of interesting philosophical and ethical lessons.

@Pequenorey13

3 ай бұрын

Vishnu enters devakis womb so while devaki was not a virgin, vasudeva was not the biological father.

It's kind of strange to me that even in the comment section of this video where you are actively explaining the claims made in this video are not true there are people here who still think all of this is true. I've been an atheist my whole life, and I recall seeing these myths pop up a while back and thinking they were interesting but once I learned there was no data supporting them I accepted that and moved on. Conspiracies like these are insane to me o.O

@MsFitz134

11 ай бұрын

Once people are convinced something is true, any evidence to the contrary becomes ridiculous and unfounded, especially when it is coming from someone that is viewed as a threat or outsider. I've heard (I'm no neuroscientist so this could be false) that it almost functions as a survival mechanism in the brain. So much of their reality and worldview rests on this belief and to have it suddenly be taken away would be devastating in a total mental collapse sort of way. So the brain just can't/won't accept the evidence.

In the Bill Maher movie Religulous, he made the same claims about Deities all sharing the same story as Jesus. It was one of Bill's "gotcha " points that he made in the film.

@TheFranchiseCA

11 ай бұрын

Maher is one of those people who are really good at sounding like they know things.

@lawrencee1113

11 ай бұрын

@@TheFranchiseCA I agree 👍

I love the "just the facts" approach in these videos. No bias, no spin, just here is what the evidence actually shows. Not enough of that on the internet.

I hate it when people exaggerate and even completely make up these parallels to Jesus. It obfuscates the fact that there are legitimate similarities and possible influences, but it is not to the highly specific level as these people claim.

So happy to see you take on Zeitgeist. This is awesome.

@lobachevscki

11 ай бұрын

He already has a couple more, here was just a mention, look them up.

Nothing would make my creator's blood run colder than hearing Dan say, "Let's see it."

Dionysus is way more interesting when you dig back into the pre-Classical (and possibly pre-Greek) stuff. He is one of the few characters to enter and leave the underworld on his own terms, so maybe that's where the "resurrection" association came from for him.

@charlo90952

11 ай бұрын

Yes. That's the derivation. And the Greek deities are based on Indian deities since classical Greece was settled by Sanskrit speakers from India. Pretty much every topographical feature in Greece is named after places in NW India, which can be found on Google maps to this day.

@pansepot1490

11 ай бұрын

I knew Dionysus as the god of wine, the Greek counterpart of Bacchus. The comparison to Jesus never made much sense to me.

@howlrichard1028

11 ай бұрын

​@@charlo90952Can you provide some examples?

@travcollier

11 ай бұрын

@@charlo90952 Hindu Nationalism is really getting out of hand. It would be funny if it weren't so scary. Relatively minor cultural contact doesn't equal "comes from" 🙄

@charlo90952

11 ай бұрын

@@travcollier Well Hindu nationalism is quite understandable considering how their country has been raped and plundered by succesive invaders. And how much evidence of contact do you need? And it's actual settlement, not just contact. Look for India in Greece by Edward Pococke. There is an immense amount of evidence there. One telling point he makes is that the names of features in the landscape, like rivers, mean something in the language in which they were named. To take one simple example from many, Thames is quite meaningless in English. The etymology says it comes from tamessas, Proto-Celtic, meaning dark. Well, guess what. In Sanskrit the word is tamas, meaning dark, dirty. It's a muddy river. This means the Celts were Sanskrit or near Sanskrit speakers. Similarly nile in Sanskrit means blue. Coincidence? Sheba, as in Queen of Sheba, is Shiva. So there are clues to Sanskrit speakers everywhere, particularly in Mesopotamia and Palestine, suggesting the roots of Christianity and Judaism can be found in Indic culture. Islam also has remnants of Shiva worship..the black stone, the seven times circumambulation, the crescent moon, the holy spring, the praying five times a day, many of the names can be traced to Sanskrit.

I was obsessed with mythology in middle school and still love it today. It's still majorly cringe when people try to claim that Jesus is the same as other mythological figures. Any mythology enthusiast worth their salt would say otherwise.

I had been asking question before zeitgeist came out, even though a year or so later I found out how incorrect the information was, I give it credit for making me a better skeptic.

thank you brother

Zeitgeist is every edgelord teens first conspiracy film. Looking back it was really stupid and 90% of it was pure bullshit. I’m still not religious but man what a stupid movie zeitgeist was.

The particular shirt worn for this vid is not lost on me Dan, well done

@subtle.presence

11 ай бұрын

I'm glad to see others noticed that too. 😆

Hello Dan, I’d like to know your thoughts on the Prophecy of Neferti; an ancient story derived from the old kingdom of Egypt. It’s basically the story of a conquered land and people expecting to be rescued from king in upper Egypt. A messianic/savior figure who would return Egypt to its people. Upon hearing the story I began to think about how similar the story sounds to that of the Jews prophecy of the Messiah, who is actually sounds more like the Egyptian messiah. I wondered to myself if there is a connection between the two prophecies. Knowing that the Egyptian Empire used to include today’s Israeli region, I figured that the capture of Egypt would be known by everyone in the empire. Similarly, i suspect the Prophecy of Neferti that sprang from the Egyptian’s desire to reclaim their land was also well known by the Jews. I have been pondering on the possibility of the Jews adopting a similar prophecy to address their captivity to Egypt as an expression of their desire to be free and set apart from other nations? Could the prophecy of the Jewish Messiah be based of the expectations of the Egyptian Messiah, Neferti ? Prophecy of Neferti kzread.info/dash/bejne/pK2J08eGmtSuiqw.html

I would appreciate your videos having an “out-tro” at the end, like opposite of an “intro”. Roll credits? I am listening intently, then BOOM ad at full volume in my ear, and I’m thinking “I guess he was done?” 🤷‍♂️

It frustrates me to no end to hear these claims now. I can't remember if I ever believed them or if I learned how false they were before I had a chance to. Critical thinking, skepticism, and evidence matter. Unfortunately that's lost on far too many people. You can believe whatever you want, but be honest about believing it without or in spite of the evidence or lack thereof. Our first duty is to the truth

Have you read "The Immortality Key" Book by Brian C. Muraresku? It depicts archeological studies that have shown some interesting overlap. of Jeus and Dionysus. Fascinating read.

Great stuff. Thanks, Dan!

The SHWEP also had some excellent episodes on Mithras! Great video Dan!

is there more content on this topic?? GREAT VIDEO

Another excellent discussion Dan. I really appreciated your appeal to primary evidence. Too often we see the reference to things not from the primary source taken as fact in a lot of fields.

can you talk about Irving Finkel

bummers, loved the Zie.. Movie, so? haw many virgin births in mythology and how many raised or taken or ascended to heaven missing from tomb etc etc

Hail St.McClellan, patron of infinite patience!

What are the chances they were all "born" on December25?

Dan would you say that the other faiths borrowed and took from the Old Testament that what I believe

You forgot to reference the most authoritative source: Zeitgeist! 🤣

👏👏👏

There were ancient stories with thematic similarities that later scholars latched on to, so just because the term "dying and reviving god" was coined in the 19th century, doesn't mean that there weren't stories that shared that theme. With regard to Jesus, I've heard that his resurrection paralleled a different theme of the deification of kings and heroes. Also, just because there are common themes doesn't mean that the stories are linked in myth, they can simply be similar.

I think thet Jesus is largely a mashup of other demigods and gods with some creativity sprinked in. I totally agree though that you can't point to another character that shares exactly the same story.

The crazy part is they pass these stories around TO SAY that Satan created them to deceive Christians. I'd say he succeeded, though not in the way they think.

Isn't THIS a part of zeitgeist the movie?

4:30 "will give birth" or "has given birth" ???

Long felt that if all these different religions from different parts of the world really did all center around a teacher/healer/miracle worker born on 25 December to a Virgin that would demand a supernatural (or conspiratorial?) explanation. Anybody watched further along with this stuff know if what must be so universally special about 25th December ever gets explained?

@theoutspokenhumanist

11 ай бұрын

Your English isn't clear but I think you are asking why the date is special. The first point to realise is that most or possibly all of these stories you mention came after the use of 25th December by Christians. As for why that date, there are two reasons. The first is that in the northern hemisphere it is the date upon which the days can be recognised as growing longer, after the solstice and, as such, formed a point for rituals concerning re-birth and fertility in ancient Rome. The argument made is that the church adopted a date already celebrated. The alternate explanation involves a complex reworking of dates from the Jesus story by the church. This channel has a video giving a full account of that process and it's worth a look. Hope this helps.

@charlo90952

11 ай бұрын

Obviously Dec 25th is the solstice. It's just shifted a couple of days because of some calendar change. And to my mind the best explanation for the "virgin birth" is the Sun rising into the constellation Virgo 7000 years ago. Birth of the Sun in other words.

@theoutspokenhumanist

11 ай бұрын

@@charlo90952 Except the video you just watched gives a clear explanation of where the concept of a virgin birth comes from. A mistranslation of Isaiah. Also, the 25th is not the solstice but it is the first day after the solstice that the days grow noticeably longer to everyone, that is why it was linked to rebirth and fertility in ancient Rome before the advent of Christianity. There was a Roman festival on that date but it is not found in all the stories referred to in the video.

@charlo90952

11 ай бұрын

@@theoutspokenhumanist I like my explanation better. Much more logical IMHO.

@jkb2819

11 ай бұрын

@@theoutspokenhumanist No, I understand why the church ended up with the 25th of December. What I mean is if one were to grant that Horus, Krishna, Attus etc all had the same birth date (and manner of birth and so on), then that would require an explanation, as these are deities from different religions from disconnected times and places, and the 25th of December is a pretty arbitrary date for all these people to converge around. You would need to argue for a common source for all these details. I was interested in whether people who propagate these ideas do so because they go on to argue for some "true" divine (or extraterrestial?) being behind all of this, or illuminati or whatever. Or if its just an attempt to attack the Jesus story with no great thought beyond that.

Where did the idea Jesus was born on 25th December come from?

@hive_indicator318

5 ай бұрын

Because they (somewhat logically) decided that he died on March 25th, and had the idea that it was also the day he was conceived. 9 months later, and...

The 12 disciples claim being common is interesting to me, because what, some God said “we only have 11, need to find one more!”, or “sorry disciple 13, we have to kick you out.”, or “here’s this god just like Jesus, but wait, he has too many or too few disciples?”😂

would really like to see you address richard carrier's work on historical jesus

@TacticusPrime

11 ай бұрын

It's bullshit. There are already many take downs of his puerile nonsense, but Ehrman's "Did Jesus Exist?" is probably the most accessible. No scholars take Carrier's work seriously.

@chetgaines1289

11 ай бұрын

@@TacticusPrime "did jesus exist?" isn't a takedown of carrier's work at all. 👍

@TacticusPrime

11 ай бұрын

@@chetgaines1289 It sets out why all serious scholars accept that there was a man believed to be a prophet named Yeshua ben Yosef in the 1st century around whom the Christian religion was formed.

wait, there was a second claim about horus that was partially true. his mother was isis. not virgin, and not "mary", but ... isis. so partial points.

So Dan would you say that the idea of the virgin birth is wrong and Christ was born through natural union of a man and woman or am I interpreting what you said wrong???

@ramadadiver8112

11 ай бұрын

His point was that Jesus is explicitly to be said to be born of a virgin and that Mathew used isaiah ( not other greek literature ) as his source for a virgin birth . Not only that . Deities in greek mythology are not said to be born of a virgin . The women aren't called virgins .

@jaylanprendergast791

11 ай бұрын

@@ramadadiver8112 he never mentioned the book of Matthew. he only talks about Isaiah and says that the Greek translation of Isaiah is where we get the idea of the virgin birth as we know it the reason is in the Greek translation they use the word parthenos which means “a women old enough to marry “ and/or A women who has never had sex” but in the Hebrew it uses alma which means “a women old enough to marry” as you can see parthenos has an extra meaning that the original Hebrew word doesn’t which is what I asked my question

@ramadadiver8112

11 ай бұрын

@@jaylanprendergast791 Mathew used isaiah . It is Mathew that says Jesus was born of a virgin and that isaiah prophesized it

@jaylanprendergast791

11 ай бұрын

@@ramadadiver8112 yes Isaiah prophesied it in Isaiah 7:14

@ramadadiver8112

11 ай бұрын

@@jaylanprendergast791 Jews translated the Hebrew word almah as .Parthenos in the greek septuegent in isaiah Which means the Jews who translated it also thought it could be young woman or virgin

guess that's what happens when your primary sources are Jordan Maxwell and Acharya S....

So once again I feel compelled to make a critque. With regard to mystery religions and their rites and stories, there tends to be varying degrees of esotericism applied to aspects of these religions, particularly the mystical rites. With regard to various stories in the sphere of Bacchic traditions, there were certainly stories of turning water into wine. McDonald makes a very good point regarding memesis, and I think the wedding in cana story is an excellent example of this type of memesis. Authors are not going to copy exact details of famous greek mythos, instead they will take bits, enough for readers to recognize the simikarities, but then contrast also in such a way as to make the action of the divine beibg in the new context seem superior to the action of the god in the old context. In the case of the Johannian memesis, Jesus brings the best wine at the end of the party. IOW the wine at the party is a kind of a metaphor for whatever belief (judaism, roman polytheism), but from water (basic elements) Jesus makes a superior wine. The wedding is often used as a metaphor of gods relationship with the Jews. So what we can see is that Jesus is being compared with the greek god of wine and Jewish covenent at the same time, one does not expect then for details between the mythos and Dionysus to match, just that those who engage that kind of greek literature would see and compare. With regard to dating esoteric traditions, lets be clear our first text of John is in the third century and we don't kniw how complete that text is. It is pretty well kniwn that the gispel is a layered text constructed in phases, the first being the signs gospel, constructed in ephesus, pretty much at the center of Dionysan traditions. Esoteric stories in mystery cults percolate out slowly if at all. Conclusion. The author of the signs gospel certainly borrowed from the Bacchic traditions, doing so to make Jesus look superior to Dionysus.

Using December 25 as any reference date is nonsensical as it is just wrong. It was decided upon much later and much like other holidays, was chosen to overlap an existing pagan holiday, perhaps the birth of Mithra. A lot of Xian tradition is based on or drawn from other religions. But just to ask a silly question - what primary Xian texts are you referencing as there are none?

@dehn6581

11 ай бұрын

The writings of the early church, in which there was much debate around the date of Jesus's death and wanting to calculate it separate from Jewish traditions as Christianity started to separate out from Judaism. Those dates were used to calculate his birth with the concept at the time of him having been conceived on the same date. This is why we have two different dates for Christmas, the 25th of December and the 6th of January.

@EricMcLuen

11 ай бұрын

@dehn6581 No, the difference between those dates is Eastern Orthodox didn't make the switch to the Gregorian calendar. The point is that there is no historical reason to believe the birth took place on Decem ber 25. Quite the contrairy.

In the Orphic tradition, Dionysus was torn apart by the Titans before he was reassembled and underwent apotheosis.

@MsFitz134

11 ай бұрын

This is giving me real superhero vibes. Dionysus, reassemble!

@EMIM187

11 ай бұрын

In the Orphic tradition, Zagreus was born of an incestuous meeting between Zeus(as a snake) and Persephone. Zagreus was torn apart by Titans. After the creation of man, through the destruction of the titans responsible for the act, Zagreus heart was used to create Dionysus. There are parallels between the two that are heavily emphasized and exaggerated upon by people like Manly P. Hall. Who could easily come to their conclusions because there was no current data to contradict the claims. But it's 2023, and the past is less of a mystery.

Where did you dig up this garbage? I'm just a nerd and enjoy learning about history and I knew within the first couple of claims about Horace were completely made up refuse. Edit: also, the insistence of this dude saying every one of them was born on "Dec 25th" is almost obnoxious. Come on, you're not even going to attempt to do some mental gymnastics with an obscure date reference to try and say it was "Dec 25th"?

let me guess, you're going to be critical of the comparison of christianity to egyptian and other religions. sure, later religions evolve the stories and change their fictional gods to be the uber god of the day. point is that they are all fictional and borrow heavily from previous religions. because it's not easy to come up with original gods, and it helps to transition people from previous political fiction (religion) to the next. resurrection is nothing more than the fiction of going to a heaven. whether in egyptian mythology or christianity. that you want to push this ridiculous line that this fiction god is the real one, is a failure to grasp reality of religions.

@dehn6581

11 ай бұрын

There is nothing in pointing out these claims are false that means this is the 'real deity', and it's easier to discuss links when people are just making things up to fit a point.

@whoischristopherwayne

11 ай бұрын

Tell me you know nothing about Dan's work without telling me you know nothing about Dan's work.

Barach Obama was born on December 25 of the sun godess Hilary. At the age of 12, he taught the masters at Harvard School of Law and Fertility. Eighteen years later he was baptized in a tan suit, and after a year of ministry, the Sons of Tiktok crucified him because they discovered that his name in Italian, the most ancient of the semitic languages, identified him as antipasto.

A lot of it is made up, that clip is one of the worst I have seen

Why lie about a book of lies? Just read it.

Isn't it curious that Jesus's alternative names of Isha and Yeshua are names of Shiva and Krishna. .In other words Jesus is probably derived from something preexisting. And one Roman said Christianity was in existence long before Jesus. So by no means is it cut and dried.

@dumpsterfire79

11 ай бұрын

That's not how it works.😂

@philsphan4414

11 ай бұрын

No, it’s cut and dried. Jesus is just a Greek version of a common Jewish name. When it comes to religion, both the right and left are full of silliness.

@theoutspokenhumanist

11 ай бұрын

I'm sorry but these names are not linked at all. Jesus is the Latinised version of a Greek translation of the Hebrew, Yeshuah, which we might today translate directly from Hebrew as Joshua. It is very much cut & dried. I am not a believer but facts are facts. Christianity is a religion based upon belief in the Christ, from the Greek Christos, a translation of messiah or anointed one. How can there have been a Christianity before a Christ?

@silverlightsinaugust2756

11 ай бұрын

As far as a reason to not believe in Christianity, you need only to point to the fact that many religions exist. Even if you could be logically argued into believing a god exists, you would have decades of searching to do, and the conclusion you should come to is that religion is a purely human endeavor. The similarities between religions don’t have to be these over-the-top, one-to-one things. People all over the globe have believed gods exist. So picking one to believe over others is inherently biased.

@charlo90952

11 ай бұрын

@@theoutspokenhumanist Well, the statement was made by a Roman. I don't have an immediate reference I'm afraid. Christ just means annointed one as you say. It could apply to anyone, so a form of Christianity could well exist withoutJesus. And Christ also can be derived from Krishna. Christ>Christo>Krista>Krishna . Jerusalem is Yeru-shalayim in Hebrew and Yadu-ishalayam in Sanskrit, meaning rock of the Yadus. The Jews are the Yadus, Krishna's clan from India. it suggests Sanskrit speakers were in the Middle East, bringing their culture with them. There are other words likely derived from Sanskrit, like Melchisedek. This Indian connection is not accepted by modern scholars, or they're not even aware of it, but it was noted by nineteenth century scholars. It makes the most sense to me. Abram and Sarah are Brahma and Sara-svati. Isa/Isha is a name of Shiva, and Krishna is called Yeshiva in India. There are enough similarities to convince me. The idea that our culture and religion only started 2000 years ago doesn't make sense. Clearly there was culture and religion preceding that. Christians were very diligent at destroying the evidence, burning libraries like Alexandria so a great deal has been lost.

Its just a dumb story....so who cares.....Magical stories are fun....but I believe in reality. Nature is the best and most interesting story.

Very interesting that you assert the need for evidence to support claims, and yet Christianity has none to support the existence of god or the divinity of Jesus. 🤔

@TheFranchiseCA

11 ай бұрын

You can feel free to disbelieve in core Christian claims without feeling compelled to accept anti-Christian claims which have no apparent historical basis.

@agingerbeard

11 ай бұрын

@@TheFranchiseCA virtually nothing, outside a few place names and ppl who may or may not have existed, supports the bible historically. It can't even keep its own internal history consistent 😂 Even if it references other historical ppl, it doesn't make ANY of the divinity claims true. Those have to be proven, independent of the bible...

@howlrichard1028

11 ай бұрын

I don't understand what you're aiming at, here. Dan hasn't made any claims on the validity of Christianity.

@agingerbeard

11 ай бұрын

@@howlrichard1028 I didn't say he did, I was making a comment about Christians.

@TheFranchiseCA

11 ай бұрын

@@agingerbeard Yes, you may feel free to disbelieve Christianity and any other belief system until and unless you receive reasonable physical, mental, or spiritual evidences.

The Christ-myth is a solar allegory and bears resemblance to every other Mediterranean solar allegory, whether Zeitgeist can keep its facts straight or not. Dan is easily the most tiresome deboonker online today.

@charlo90952

11 ай бұрын

Yes. Agreed. Was it zeitgeist that said the crucifixion is the intersection of the plane of the ecliptic with the celestial equator at the equinox, forming a virtual cross in the sky? And that Passover is the Sun passing over the equator at the equinox. And the death of the first born is the extinguishing of the stars at sunrise, the Magi following star in East are the three stars in Orions belt pointing at Sirius. The virgin birth is the sun rising into Virgo 7000 years ago. And so on. It's all celestial.

@Catholic-Perennialist

11 ай бұрын

@@charlo90952 He'll respond by saying there are no primary sources that lay out such a scheme, but that precisely what a motif is. Archetypes were deliberately held back from public discourse because once the masses understand the metaphor they cease to be affected by it. Celestial myth was the property of the priest class and not written down anywhere. Consider the three days in the tomb. How many months between the "death" of the sun at solstice and his being raised to full strength at the equinox? Exactly three. When is the sun the hottest? In Leo as the Lion of Judah, etc.

@fre2725

11 ай бұрын

Agreed that there were mythical templates. But when arguing for influence specifically a historian has to do more than point to a parallel. And archetypal schemes (valid or not) have a way of influencing perception and can cause one to distort the primary sources to fit the pattern one is looking for

@Catholic-Perennialist

11 ай бұрын

@@fre2725 Autists are really bad at generalizations and metaphor/symbolism is typically lost on them. Calling this good scholarship is to make a virtue of vice.

@PasteurizedLettuce

11 ай бұрын

Jesus mythicists are the most tiresome pseudo historians online lol

When the Bible talks about false Christ, this is precisely what it means. Not only that, but also the confusion of scripture and twisting it to normalize homosexuality and gender role reversal.