this is why i have no problem paying full price for M2 releases. they put in the effort and deserve to be rewarded for it. support M2!

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

Yes exactly, quality over quantity (if that even counts in this case) all the way.

@iconoclasttastic9258

2 жыл бұрын

Agreed!

@shinbakihanma2749

2 жыл бұрын

I never pay full price for anything. My wallet matters more than anyone or anything else in this world. I'll always wait for sale prices on M2 games and games from any other dev. That's how the rich stay rich.. bitch🤣

@panochaberta1248

2 жыл бұрын

This, they even go a bit extra adding new stuff and improvements that makes the games looks so modern and fresh

@traphousegamer1906

2 жыл бұрын

Seriously M2 should be the only one trusted with games like this

You know me... I even gave the Psikyo ports a pass with caveats as it at least matched the performance of the Dreamcast ports at 6-7 frames. I called it okay for casual play but likely not for anyone serious. But dang at 11 we have to say something. I posted in community and on my other social media too to let people know. We can’t reward devs for this kind of release and I’ll resell my copy online to recoup the cost once it arrives. I was already expecting 6-8 since the actual Saturn games are just below those numbers. The original games have more inherent lag. They just added an extra 5-6 on top with the emulation. A mini console has an excuse it’s a cheap processor in a $99 device, but even those are 6-8 frames. 10+ is just wow.

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah no kidding!! Yeah I got 6 frames on mednafen so the Saturn version is in the 6 frame ballpark like you said, but in that case you d actually hope to see the dev roll up their sleeves and improve the bad input lag, not double it ha. M2 actually lowered garegga s lag compared to the pcb and that s a lot trickier to shave 4 down to 3 then at least maintaining a 5-6 frame range of lag. Shame too because cotton 2 is awesome, the throw mechanic is really cool.

@TheSamuraiGoomba

2 жыл бұрын

6-8 would have been acceptable. That would have been the standard Saturn version lag + one frame of Switch lag. Not good but understandable. 11 frames is just insane.

The Saturn to 360 ports of 10 years ago didn't carry so much added lag but they were recompiled rather than emulated. That should be the way to go for modern ports of Saturn games even in 2021, especially on underpowered machines.

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

💯 agreed on that. Yes to do a proper job they either need to recompile or come up with some insane emulation (which seems unlikely at this point)

@theatlantichoneypotassocia853

2 жыл бұрын

well lets hope City Connection do better with the Deathsmiles port later this year

@ninetendopesaitama2107

2 жыл бұрын

Waiting for the Saturn core on MiSTer.

@mahdiyussuf9804

2 жыл бұрын

@@ninetendopesaitama2107 Hell yeah!

@sozaj

2 жыл бұрын

@@theatlantichoneypotassocia853 does your name mean Russian Spy?

For those watching this now: City Connection announced a patch that will fix the input lag issues with both the Cotton and Guardian Force Saturn Tributes. Great to see them respond positively to the criticism from this collection. It was apparently released on February iirc. I hope City Connection will learn from their mistakes with the upcoming Taito Saturn Tributes. City Connection at least acknowledged the issue unlike Sega where they didn't bother to fix the input lag on the Genesis collection at all

@mewjam

Жыл бұрын

how's it looking now?

@zy2239

10 ай бұрын

Yeah... an update please ! @@mewjam

It's such a shame :( One of the games I looked forward the most this year. I'm just glad that I could cancel my order in time as soon as people mentioned it in the Discord. This does not look good for the upcoming Deathsmiles collection... Oh well, at least there is hope for rock and roll.

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

Glad you were able to! Yeah deathsmiles is looking dicey and that s my fav horizontal shmup

Good news: Developer knowing this as issue, and now they trying to make patch for it. So waiting for when it comes is best choice for this moment.

@quesocoatl21

2 жыл бұрын

updates?

11 frames?!? That’s pretty gnarly. This isn’t a turn based RPG. Sounds like they weren’t even trying

@kirkcavenaugh758

2 жыл бұрын

I'm imagining a shmup rpg now

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

I think they bit off more then they can chew with this one

@bobsaget9182

2 жыл бұрын

The Switch really isn't fast enough to emulate the Saturn accurately. It actually takes a lot of CPU if you do it right. A Steam Deck with Mednafen is going to be 10x better than this crap and cost exactly 0 dollars.

@JGrove303

2 жыл бұрын

@@bobsaget9182 Right, which is why the games should have be recompiled to run on Switch hardware

@bobsaget9182

2 жыл бұрын

@@JGrove303 I doubt the original game was written in C. Rewriting it would cost more money than a niche game like this will make in sales. There's a reason they just used a crappy emulator.

On Playasia: "Notice of input lag: - City Connection plans to update the title to improve the input lag. - Schedule for the update to be announced later."

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

Yes it will be interesting to see what they come up with, if they somehow drastically reduce the lag I will be impressed!

@sbanner428

2 жыл бұрын

I’m so excited to see that we’ll have a great Saturn emulator this early in the Switch’s life

@gigi-wd1lm

2 жыл бұрын

like i said in another post just need to be patient a little bit, I will receive my copy not before end of december because I ordered this game with deathsmiles too so the patch will be probably here it's perfect.

@iglesianichristofanboysand5453

2 жыл бұрын

Nintendo switch is garbage lmaoooooooooo get a steam deck instead hahahaha

I'm really scared for death smiles now...

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

Me too, exactly :-(

I was given the choice of either a Saturn or a PS as a christmas gift back in the day. Chose the Saturn after playing it at a single friend's house (the only guy who had one). My father gave me shit for it (still to this day actually; all my other friends had PS1 and borrowed games from one another) but never regretted it once. I'm VERY happy with that choice and (by extension) getting all of these imports before the prices went nuts (same with PCBs). Saturn emulation still not being decent is a serious bummer; the prices I'm seeing currently on the fun older games an even bigger one. Idgaf about it being piracy. Most of it won't be re-released. These games should be playable for future generations. Imagine not being able to look at photos from 50 years ago due to "eye updates" or whatever. This is history and it's being disrespected... Pisses me off.💢

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah Saturn ended up being the winner in the long run 🏆! As for playing the game on Saturn, yes I have a jailbroken Saturn and that s the way I plan to play cotton 2 ha

@korvkorv532

2 жыл бұрын

@@TheElectricUnderground It really won. A modded PS2 with backwards compability gives it a good run for the money but the PS1 no chance. Same but once the laser goes won't know what to do... Hope emulators will be up to speed by then.👍

@poisonouslead85

2 жыл бұрын

@@korvkorv532 Just buy an Optical Drive Emulator for your Saturn when the laser dies.

This really doesn't make me hopeful for the Deathsmiles I&II port they're handling.

@Weedwof

2 жыл бұрын

Oh no… *they’re* the ones behind porting it? 😖

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

I know! It really shouldn't be that hard since it s already on steam and 360, but city connection don't seem to have any quality control

@BlueflagAlpha

2 жыл бұрын

@@Weedwof yup

@Weedwof

2 жыл бұрын

@@BlueflagAlpha 😫 That’s depressing. Oh well; my expectations of that port have been extremely reduced now.

@TheSamuraiGoomba

2 жыл бұрын

@@TheElectricUnderground My guess is it'll either be exactly the same as the 360, with no improvements, or it'll be the 360 port with 4+ additional frames of input delay. :/ Just my educated guess based on what a shit job CC do at porting games.

What an absolute shame, specially after the excellent Cotton Reboot. I found the Psykio collections to be not ideal but still perfectly playable after some moments of adjustment, 11 frames of input lag tho... that's probably one of, if not the, worst Shmup port i've ever heard of.

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

It takes the cake, I don t even know how they got it so laggy tbh

I actually don’t mind the input lag so much on the psikyo collections, maybe because I just play them for fun, but i hope the issue with the cotton collection can be fixed via an update? Hopefully?

@MrVariant

2 жыл бұрын

It's ok to be a filthy casual lol. Funny how this cotton bit says hold my beer to psikyo being even slower.

@esperago

Жыл бұрын

11 months later and apparently the patch they generated changed the lag from 11 frames to 9 frames... which could be described as "Why bother?"

@johnhammond7579

Жыл бұрын

'maybe because I just play them for fun' Late reply, but don't we all?

"well well well city connection strike again..." love the tone and attitude of the video. your justified disdain towards city connection and its track record is funny and sad at the same time. but yeah im pretty bummed about this release because cotton reboot got me into shmups and the cotton series a few months ago. 10-11 frames is actually insane.

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

Yes and I m very nervous for their upcoming deathsmiles release! Let's just hope they copy and paste the steam version without adding 9 more frames of lag

this video came out before my input registered

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

Lul. You re still stuck on the menu

Definitely a BIG issue for the non-casual players who want to play these games seriously... 10~11 frames of input lag is terrible. Let's hope City Connection fixes this kind of issue before releasing the upcoming Deathsmiles I & II on NSW....

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

No kidding!!

My god, that's input lag even I'd get annoyed at; my gut was telling me to wait for detailed reviews, your heads up is greatly appreciated--keep up the good work 👍

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

No problem!!! Glad to help sensei!!

For those who would like to play Cotton 2, Cotton Boomerang, and Guardian Force on original hardware but don’t want to pay $200+ for them, definitely look into picking up a Fenrir, MODE, Satiator, or a pseudo Saturn Kai cartridge. In 2021, there is no need to pay that much per game anymore. With any of these solutions (Ranging from $30-$230), you can play all three of these games, and the rest of the Saturn library. We talk about these solutions on our own channel in detail, but the point of this comment is to show you don’t need to pay hundreds per game anymore to play on original hardware in the best conditions, especially for speedrunners and 1CC players.

You nailed it. That is the Mark MSX we all know and respect. It was for laughs and you did it. Keep up with game integrity.

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

Yes 11 frames of lag is so crazy I had to talk about it asap to help viewers save some money.

More than 4 frames of lag in modern day?! Thats unheard of!! Especially on older games

Man... I'm so gutted. Got it in the post should get it tomorrow. I thought with the Cotton Reboot being so good this would be a total win. I don't agree with this the developers might patch it. Games that have been around for years could and should be released in an even better form than before. Also have the zombie tengu games from city connection pre-ordered and paid for. Deathsmiles is gonna be a steaming turd. Have you seen what happens to your score in Deathsmiles for the switch? The developers say they encountered a bug that displays the last 3 digits as xxx.

@morsalty

2 жыл бұрын

Reboot was great! They completely recoded the X68000 version for the port! CIty connection just threw these roms on an emulator then added a bunch of bullshit on top to make it run even worse... no care or passion with those guys....

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

Oh no that sucks :-( also I did not see that issue with the deathsmiles port but I promise I am going to be looking very carefully at that port when it comes out, since deathsmiles is already pretty excellent on steam and 360, the PS4 port must be excellent which isn't super likely at this point

@sbanner428

2 жыл бұрын

Is it really as bad as 6-11 frames? Now that you have it.

@dahnilama1417

2 жыл бұрын

@@sbanner428 yeah it sucks. I've barely touched it since i got it. I don't notice the input delay on the Psikyo switch ports but on this one unfortunately I do.

@morsalty

2 жыл бұрын

@JungleBubble yeah i read tbeir statement but the issue comes from the decade old laggy SSF emulator they threw the ROM on. I have no hope for it to be fixed but i would love to be surprised.

Damn, I almost pre-ordered it a few weeks ago when I preordered the M2 TigerHeli collection. Glad I just got the one. Thanks for saving me the money!

@EspritFidget

2 жыл бұрын

Never, ever, preorder anything.

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

No problem! I started working on the vid as soon as I heard messages about how laggy it is.

@streetmagik3105

2 жыл бұрын

@@TheElectricUnderground I've already saved one poor soul from wasting his money, lol. I love shmups getting this resurgence, but this is obviously a cash grab off the back of Cotton reboot. Thanks again dude!👍

This is really unfortunate. I was excited to finally get into this series with this release and saw it at my local game store, but passed on it initially bc I wanted to wait until reviews/analysis of the ports were done. 11 frames of input lag is unacceptable both from a gameplay and preservation perspective imo. Thank you for the information :)

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

No problem! Glad you waited before buying, sadly that seems to be the state of things when it comes to shmup ports (other then m2 so far) where you want to hang on and make sure they are accurate and don't have lag problems

I bought all 3 games in the collection and I can confirm the lag is alarming. Like REALLY bad. I'm gutted because I was looking forward to these but they are absolutely unplayable. I'm also gutted to think that the Deathsmiles collection coming by them will also be the same.

@serraramayfield9230

2 жыл бұрын

If the DS collection does this they should lose porting rights

@morsalty

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah city connection has lost all credibility to me now. Not buying anything of theirs until its proven to be competent

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

I know let us all pray Ikeda kicks in the office door at city connection and does some quality control before the release.

@nicklong27

2 жыл бұрын

@@TheElectricUnderground Is that likely for them to do that? I know Cave's games but I know little about them behind the scenes. I pray they actually care about their IP's enough to ensure the game is playable.

@serraramayfield9230

2 жыл бұрын

@@nicklong27 I know IKD does

So disappointing. I got guardian force and found the imput lag to be far too much so I've since not bothered with the cotton titles associated with this collection. Fuck City connection, praise M2!

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

💯 it s a shame M2 didn t do the psikyo releases as well, they did a great job with Darius

Didn't bother with the 2 Cotton games, but I did get Guardian Force on PS5. They pushed an update shortly after I started playing it on day of release. I can't be sure if it's because it's on PS5, but I'm not noticing anything crazy lag-wise. It feels/plays much like Cotton Reboot (nothing crazy just slight ice skating). My main problem is the marketing. I went straight ahead and bought PSN credit to purchase from the Japanese PSN, so I paid well over the odds for a game that was available from my own region. Not the first time this has happened, I was caught with Mushihimesama in the same way.

Absolutely devastasted. Bought the Japan physical off Playasia as figured it was an automatic win. On its way in the post. 50GBP if you include delivery! Whats your opinion on CB on SSF emulator? IMO it runs very well. Little lag perhaps. Would/could you do a side by side? Thanks for the vid. Wish I'd seen this... Remember kids, fools rush in...

@Medicint20

2 жыл бұрын

At that price I hope you got the limited edition. I got it from Amazon Japan.

@overdrone1606

2 жыл бұрын

Yes, mines on the way from Playasia too lol. I won't bother even cracking the seal until I hear news of a patch that can remedy this ridiculous lag.

@gamesbloke

2 жыл бұрын

@@Medicint20 My donuttery escalates to new depths lol OMFG lol

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

I haven't tried it! Running it via emulator seems a much stronger option at this point. You could also jail break your Saturn :-) yeah your situation sucks!

@reagandow850

2 жыл бұрын

Me too! I’m truly disappointed. WTF!! Goddamn these companies and their garbage ports.

I was considering getting this, but after seeing the video, I decided to use the money towards M2's upcoming Tiger-Heli Collection. Also, I don't know if you already know this, but according to City Connection's president, the upcoming Deathsmiles collection are ports instead of emulation. I'm still kinda worried, though.

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

Yes me too! It could be ok, but the lack of quality control makes me nervous.

I have a preorder of deathsmiles already paid and im worried about having the same issue with this game 🤦🏻‍♂️. Im over with preorders at this point, just will wait until the games are out and buy it digital after seeing and honest review, im tired of felling scammed one way or another by publishers

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

Absolutely! Yeah I think in order for pre orders to be a fair system the publishers should be willing to refund if the game is bad, otherwise they have no incentive to fix the problems later on

@jokersoyyo

2 жыл бұрын

@@TheElectricUnderground Playasia refunded my deathsmiles and cotton preorder, i will avoid city conection in the future, i dont care wich license they buy, they show they dont care in multiple situations so fuck them

I was on Playasia this weekend thinking about buying this and I'm so glad I came across your video. I will be avoiding this one which is a shame. I was going to have it sit right next to my Cotton Reboot game.

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

Yes i would definitely hang tight for future releases from the cotton reboot team instead.

Have you tried SSF or retroarch on PC? If the switch had exact optimized pots of shmups I would consider getting one. But this video sums up my choice on that. That’s two botched ports to the switch. This, and dodonpachi daioujou. They ported over a flip phone version of it.

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

Yes! I need to do a comparison between the input lag on RA vs Mednafen, that would be really interesting to see.

Really thanks . I was fooled with psykio port , no more now. I was waiting your advice and shmup on switch . Always see your test before buying because of lag mention

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

I m glad!!! I m glad my vids and tests are helpful!

I would like to know if the game is better these days after patches. And how the switch version compares with the pc version.

The input lag you felt even on your emulator is probably because the two ST-V Cotton games already have "input lag" on original hardware, whether you play on Saturn or ST-V. The two games are not very responsive but are balanced with this is mind. (I don’t know if I am projecting excuses but I have always "accepted" that I was controlling Cotton steering the broom, rather than the broom itself, justifying the delayed motion.) So the seemingly unbelievable lag attained in the new official port might be a compounding of the original game’s lag + real emulation issues. Just a theory.

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

Yes I think you are right. It s an unholy union of input lag

@Ishmokin

2 жыл бұрын

Damn shame. Thanks for the review, will just stick with cotton reboot then.

@hauntedvoyager7806

2 жыл бұрын

I got my physical copy of this yesterday and can confirm the lag is real, but for some reason (probably because I’m not the best at shmups) I still had some fun with Cotton 2. Got through the third stage and thought that maybe I was just dying a lot because I’m bad. lol

@pwnsy584

2 жыл бұрын

@@hauntedvoyager7806 no u are bad lol

@hauntedvoyager7806

2 жыл бұрын

@@pwnsy584 So, I’m sure the lag didn’t help, then. haha

This showed up on the Playstation Store but instead of it being a "collection" they are selling each game individually for $17.00 each. I wanted to get these games but now I'm hesitating because I'm nervous about 10 frames of input lag. That's insane!

thanks for the honest review. in a genre so defined by control and response, this really is unacceptable and can only be viewed as a cash grab that tarnishes the legacy of classic saturn games. many people will have no idea that this isn't how the game was, and that is a damn shame.

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

Absolutely, I do think input lag is a fundamental aspect of the game's quality, just like framerate and all that sort of stuff.

I'm buying it to stick it on my wall 😁 I hope the soundtrack CD and art cards don't have any input delay 😜

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

the notorious lag on the drums! they are beat behind! ;-)

More like Shitty Connection, am I right I can't wait for Deathsmiles I&II to have like half a second of input lag.

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

No kidding. The silver lining on deathsmiles is that it at least already has solid ports on steam and 360, so there are alternatives at least

We need more honest reviewers in this world. Thank you.

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

No problem! And yes I agree ha

@the-NightStar

Жыл бұрын

I think we already HAVE too many overexaggeratory nitpickers, thanks.

The Scanline setting has been added. Access the Scanline setting by going to Screen Setting -> Scanline. ・A setting to speed up loading has been added. The setting can be configured in Extra Option -> Fast Loading. ・Added a new feature to Cotton 2 and Guardian Force that allows you to set unlimited continues, which was previously only available in the main game of Cotton Boomerang. This can be set in Extra Option -> Credit. ・The input delay has been improved. ・Other minor bugs have been fixed. This was all that was fixed or added

@AWMonopolyMan

2 жыл бұрын

I can attest to this, the infinite continues option is a part of the Extra Options as well

Guardian Force has been removed from the Nintendo Switch eshop. At least the eshop here in Russia. Cotton 2 and Cotton Boomerang are still available. I wonder whether it's connected to input lag.

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

oh that is interesting!

So how could they fix input lag which was actual present on the Saturn alone, then translate to emulation not to actually lose frames. I wouldn't give them a pass but I wanna know what happened during translation. We need to tweet out to them this collection is two much of a deal to just throw away.

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

Ideally they would roll up their sleeves and rework the code like has been done on previous saturn ports like the 360 silvergun port. I think that's probably the only way to do saturn emulation (at least right now) without creating a bunch of extra lag.

So what’s odd is that City Connection did the Game Tengoku port and when playing the Saturn version I don’t really notice much input lag. Am I accurate that input delay is better on Game Tengoku? Why wouldn’t they just emulate these in the same fashion then?

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

I honestly I am not sure, I do have it so I'll have to give it a try. But the way city connection works is odd and unpredictable. I would guess that game tengoku is not emulating but has recompiled the code, I say this because it has all these extra modes and content if I remember correctly, so I don't think it's straight emulation like these releases.

@CorinianSalame

2 жыл бұрын

@@TheElectricUnderground true! The Saturn mode does have added subtitles so I suppose I don’t know if it’s a modified rom or not! The arcade+ mode is for sure a brand new thing and should definitely not have input lag.

Wow! I stumbled across your video just in time. I was all ready to pick these games up.

What a massive bummer, and I was looking forward to this after having so much fun with the Cotton Reboot. Thanks for the heads up.

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

No problem! Glad to have helped :-)

Remember kids : preorder is like giving your money for free. Don't complain if you get scammed.

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

Yep, the modern pre order system is a scam. For it to be fair you should be able to get a refund if the game sucks.

makes me wonder if the input lag is patched (as is rumored to be happening) and with the knowledge that this game collection has opened the way to great Saturn emulation, how well opinions may be changed? would love to see a follow-up review if the lag does get patched!

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

I'll keep an eye on it, if the patch is significant that would be really interesting, but I'm pretty doubtful that they will be able to do more then shave a frame or two.

Has anyone been able to test the input latency on Death smiles I & II for the Switch or PS4? After buying this, I'm hesitant to blindly go in on any of these new releases. -Matt

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

Not yet but I will when the port comes out!

Nintendo life is completely biased. They never have (or very rarely) give negative reviews on anything, even mediocre, overpriced releases.

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

absolutely!

@JustFun-ho6qy

2 жыл бұрын

So is every other outlet that reviews games exclusively for Nintendo. At least it seems that way. The reviews for the 2 old Bloodrayne games on the Switch over at a certain other relatively big KZread channel are borderline farcical. These two games were mediocre at best when they worked as intended 20 years ago, but the ports we have today are actually flat out broken. So broken the story of the second game becomes incomprehensible because entire cut scenes are missing. Then there's the framerate which can drop into the teens when certain effects are on screen. This should be unacceptable for a 20 year old PS2 game, but instead it's apparently good enough for a 7/10. Wtf?

And this is why I always hold off until reviews come out. Hopefully SLG's release improves it but I won't hold my breath.

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah same here, super nervous with what will happen to deathsmiles. It should be easy to port over, but city connection don t seem to have any quality control. Let s just hope Ikeda stops by their office before release ha

@ninetendopesaitama2107

2 жыл бұрын

Strictly limited games did a lot of crap too. Bitte the bullet with the Bug on cartridge is really ridicoulus.

@Kain652

2 жыл бұрын

@@ninetendopesaitama2107 What did they do?

So does anyone know if City Connection handles the port itself or just published it. Wondering whether i should avoid the Deathsmiles release on swith or not

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

They publish it, seems like they outsource without much qualify control. I d say hang tight and watch my deathsmiles review before buying. Not self promotion I just don't see any other way to advise on what to do about the release until I get my hands on it

omg received my copy from play asia today and was super excited to play it! After starting the game i noticed the ridiculous lag and looked it up online. Found your video and i just wish i had done so before ordering this collection. I hope they somehow patch it because i'm stuck with this garbage now....fml

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

That sucks, yeah input lag is a huge problem if it's this high, especially in a shmup.

I bought it when it came out and I tried it today when it came in and I played all three games for about 40 minutes to try them out and I tried two levels for each game and overall I really enjoyed playing them. I died several times for two of the games but that's only because the moment was a bullet storm and I don't notice the bullet until it's too late. I could see the buttons being a bit laggy but it's not like I'm playing it on a CRT TV so I expect a little bit, but not enough for me to have trouble. When it comes to movement I felt the analog input to be quick. I don't know if they already did a patch or im an idiot and didn't see the lag, so although I would recommend it because I had fun trying them and can't wait to play more, just in case don't buy it until there is some news of the lag being fixed. I'll make a update on this comment when I try the games again and give my second thoughts. UPDATE: I played them again and to make this short I do notice the delay now, but I think the times where you get hit because of the input being slow will rarely happen. I haven't had it happen to me yet and I still think they are a lot of fun. I hope they still fix this because they can't just release this with this problem.

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

Give cotton reboot a try, you will immediately notice the difference :-)

@silvore64

2 жыл бұрын

@@TheElectricUnderground I have played Cotton reboot it's really good and I can say that responses really well. I'll have to check the Saturn Tribute again because hearing the lag problem is really strange for me not to notice. I didn't expect getting a comment from you so I appreciate the reply.

while playing i was wondering why the movement felt soo loose/slippery like being underwater all the time... turned out it was the input lag

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

Yep!

@hauntedvoyager7806

2 жыл бұрын

Same, I thought the game was just hard. 😂😂

I was thinking about preordering it since I've become big Cotton fan after the Reboot, but that City Connection tho. I've been able to play games with 5&6 frames of input lag, but 11 sounds like hell! Sheesh imagine playing rhythm games with that amount

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah 11 frames is crazy. Beatmania with 11 frames of lag sounds like torture.

For a reason I have not yet found clear evidence for the lag in SEGA Saturn emulation. Could this be a problem with the emulation of the subsystem responsible for input, or a timing problem due to the large amount of ICs in this specific console? I guess we need to ask the emulator DEV teams. No product creates from scratch emulation engines, they always either deploy a ready made one or at least read the open source ones.

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

Yes I think the problem is that the og Saturn release is pretty laggy (around 6 frames) and then the city connection port is using really laggy emu for a double decker lag sandwich

I didn’t really notice with guardian force on the collection… does this go for all titles having lag like this in the collection?

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

Yes all of them have 11 frames!

Stritcly limited games will also release the same collection with 2 extra titels added from the super famicom and sega mega drive. I am wondering if it would have the same problems then?

@morsalty

2 жыл бұрын

Same ports so yup unless there is a patch

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah I don't know but I wouldn't risk the money to find out ha.

@hauntedvoyager7806

2 жыл бұрын

I actually own the Super Famicom cart of Cotton 100% Marchen Adv., so I’ll know if the lag on that port is any better or not. Should be interesting.

Mark is 100% right. I have the PS4 version and knew something was wrong immediately. It took me many tries to even finish Guardian Force, which isn’t that difficult and I imagine I could do in 3 or 4 credits. It took me all 10 credits and beat it on my last life. So I died 29 times and at least 20 of those were special attacks not coming out in time. Also, I got a blue error screen when beating the last boss if Cotton 2, not once, but TWICE! I switched it to Saturn mode in the options and I beat that. So as is, the Arcade mode of Cotton 2 maybe cannot be completed. I really hope for a patch. Otherwise I won’t touch it again. Stay away from this one.

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

It s a real shame too because cotton 2 is really fun on the og system, yeah even trying to gather b roll on the release was too annoying so I played it via emulator instead

Thanks for the info Mark! What was that device you were using to determine the lag?

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

I have an article about it! web.archive.org/web/20200119185023/electricunderground.io/input-lag-test-setup/ But I basically use a light wired to a direction input, a 60 fps camera, and a lagless crt :-) my method has been cross referenced a lot by other people over the years :-)

Hows the ps4 version with the input lag? Also do you think the casual gamer will notice the lag?

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

It is 10 frames, and yes I'm afraid to say that it is incredibly noticeable and frustrating for players of all skill levels.

Thanks for the warning brother. Was really looking forward to these games🎮🍻

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah it s a shame :-( the best way to play them for now is to buy the Uber expensive original release or jail break your Saturn.

There is actually an input lag notice in playasia's listing, saying that it will be updated. Notice of input lag: - City Connection plans to update the title to improve the input lag. - Schedule for the update to be announced later.

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

Yes indeed! I wonder what inspired them to put up that notice ;-)

@SicketMog

Жыл бұрын

Saw a cheap copy of it on my country's Ebay today but skipped it. Has it been fixed as of yet?

Mednafen Mednafen

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

Change.org petition to change the name to medaffen coming soon!

Oh man this is heartbreaking. I was so excited to support this release too. Thanks for the warning!

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

No problem!

So sad but oh well, I'm still looking forward to getting my cotton reboot special edition from strictly limited hopefully in the next month or so

Bummer. I was surprised to see these titles individually on the PS4 shop, and immediately looked to TEU for impressions. Glad I held off.

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah with city connection I would def recommend a wait and see approach, so beware the deathsmiles port. I m going to cover it as soon as it comes out and I ll not hold back since it s my fav horizontal shmup

Typical that the one installment I wasn't able to get would the problematic one. Is this the same on all the ports? I was going to get the PS4 version from Strictly Limited, but they sold out before I could buy.

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

Yep! The other ports are laggy as well

What a shame. I'm new to the genre as a whole but the main appeal for me is picking up physical copies of games that have been kinda lost to time or were never released on home consoles. For me there is a game preservation aspect to it all, so even if there was a patch, that does nothing for me. Thanks to both you and Shmupjunkie for saving me some money.

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah it s a shame because cotton 2 is really cool game

Thanks for the warning. How about the other Cotton game on Switch, Cotton Reboot, does that have similar issues?

@Camdavis11

2 жыл бұрын

Reboot is excellent and incredibly low lag for a switch game.

@CodyCallaway

2 жыл бұрын

The other cotton was done extremely well (different dev). It was one of the best switch shooter ports to date. That was only 3 frames of lag. I would recommend that game all day long. It was one of my favorite games last year.

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

Ironically cotton reboot is very responsive, so I def recommend getting that instead

Thanks! I was eyeing that release up too. I’ll steer well clear

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

No problem!!

Being the input lag police is a dirty job but someone has to do it.

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

it is ha, playing the heavy is not as fun as it may seem ha. But I do think it's important. Ideally it would be great if devs were aware that the electric underground is out here, prepared to pounce on input lag. ha.

Is this the same for the recent cotton releases on psn? (Not the previous cotton reboot that's great).

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

I m not sure but if it s cotton 2, cotton boomerang, or guardian force stay away!

Wonder if there’s been any updates… probably not. (I still need to look into this “Zebra Engine” they mentioned.) Also aren’t the same people releasing Hebereke (NES)? Sequel looks alright.

Picked this up day one, and as someone who has zero sensitivity to lag I can say.... Yeah, it's unplayable. I mean this is horrible. You can literally feel the delay between when you press a directional key and your character moves on the screen. I don't know what they were thinking. I'm hoping for a patch but I'm not very optimistic. I'm hearing something to do with the Unity wrapper inheritantly adds about 5 frames of lag?

@JohnshiBRPG

2 жыл бұрын

It is more of the emulator itself that adds input lag. I read a forum post that confirmed the unity wrapper is super responsive during game selection menu.

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

Oh my, yeah unity is a laggy beast. Everytime I see a shmup made with unity that's a scary sign.

They're gonna do a patch playtest session in 4 days on a Tokyo venue. Looks like it's done and they want feedback on it? They posted the notice on the game's website 5 days ago. Let's hope it really is an improvement! I want this collection so bad but 11 frames is too big of a pill to swallow!

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

Really interested to hear how the patch turned out!

Man that is a shame. I was really hoping to get the collection on my Switch. Might wait a little bit then.

Bought this game a week ago and noticed the lag myself. Wish I knew it before buying. Good thing I just bought Cotton 2 and not Boomerang as well. Does the Cotton 1 remake have this kind of lag as well?

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

Actually no! Cotton reboot is nice and responsive, 3 frames of lag which is solid

How does this release of the game play today? Has the excessive lag been patched out?

There was only two Saturn ports on 360, Radiant Silvergun, and Guardian Heroes. Radiant was recompiled as it's definitely not the original port. Guardian Heroes is pretty much the exact same as the home release. The basic input I notice on Guardian Force was with the turning of the turret, and when activating the bomb when playing from my live stream. Cotton Boomerang was the worst as I was not able to chain at all when grabbing the enemy also avoiding bullets the input lag made it worse. ST-V emulation is not perfect, and I'm afraid it will never be. So Guardian Force/Cotton 2/Boomerang are still ST-V games cut down to run on the Saturn. I didn't realize it was City Connection then I might have thought twice. However I'm not going to spend $600 plus so I can just avoid input lag. Also if you were to buy these games for the original system you probably are still going to get lag running on a modern TV unless you have a CRT or conversion to use HDMI thru the same CRT or a low input lag monitor. I'm glad everybody is into input lag that's the thing now but from what I know about the ST-V/Saturn programmed games in general it's a difficult task. Should you buy it? Yes and No. I did and not sorry. $37 and some input lag is better than $600+ and an expensive set up to just post bragging rights. No knocking the whole frame debate but we know it was gonna happen. I knew it would happen. I think with Radiant Silvergun for 360 there was a lot of time spent on the port. Also to boot the Switch is not underpowered for 2D gaming but it's hampered by two things, it has to run on both portable and then translate to another signal thru a dock to a TV. You have to factor in two different input timing programs while on PS4 it only requires one because it's a static console. Not giving City Connection a pass but how many actual ST-V/Saturn games are in existence on modern consoles. Yes, if you play this on a 4K TV it's awful, it was more doable on my Samsung monitor I use when streaming. I will hit up City Connections twitter but I'm keeping it. IF you start that class-action lawsuit lemme know.

@novo1858

2 жыл бұрын

I agree with a bunch of things you said, but you state a couple misconceptions. Sega Saturn and Sega ST-V hardware are essentially identicle. No performance differences in any way as I understand. The only differcnce is that the Saturn uses CD-Roms, and the ST-V uses cartidges. So the Saturn ports arent compromised in any way. Lastly its cheaper than you'd think to get a "lag free" expereince. You can buy a japanese Saturn with a controller for less than $150 on eBay, a mod chip for $10, and you can still find CRT's for cheap almost anywhere locally. Just burn each game on a CD, and there you go less than $200. :)

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah getting these bad boys to run with low latency is a chore. I'm personally going the jailbroken saturn route with upscaling using the OSSC or just playing it on a crt.

@superroboted

2 жыл бұрын

@@novo1858 ST-V and Saturn are not the same. The Saturn is cut down. Perfect example is Groove on Fight. That is an ST-V game that runs horribly on the Saturn even with the RAM expansion. So no it's not the same. None of the ST-V ports are perfect translation but they are close enough that includes the Cotton series. Further more I have a CRT, and modding a Saturn just to get 7 frames back is asinine at best. I'm good with my purchase.

@novo1858

2 жыл бұрын

@@TheElectricUnderground Yea I guess unless you like playing around with original hardware it can be a chore. That makes this whole collection all the more upsetting, I was really looking forward to it so that some of my friends who dont have a saturn could finally appreciate them. Well thanks for doing the review and spreading the word Mark. I hope City Connection somehow hears our voices.

@novo1858

2 жыл бұрын

@@superroboted There might be one or two examples of an ST-V game having some slight differences like more frames of animation in Groove on Fight, but for almost all the rest of the games between the platforms they are identicle outside of game Version differences and revisions to roms between releases. Just making a blanket statement like all the Saturn games are "cut down" is simply incorrect. And I own an ST-V board and a modded Saturn. Preforming a super easy $10 mod on your saturn to have access to the entire library, and less lag in these particular games is entirely worthwhile.

This is disturbingly disappointing. Really wanted these games. Sucks cuz it leaves me no hope for the deathsmiles collection. I don’t get why they didn’t get the same developers that did cotton reboot!

@korvkorv532

2 жыл бұрын

So Cotton Reboot is fine? Phew... I bought that without checking much info first. This one though seems like a pass.

@superpowerman4354

2 жыл бұрын

@@korvkorv532 Yes cotton reboot is fine cuz it was different dev team porting.

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah if they use this unity engine or whatever they did on this release on deathsmiles, it's a goner :-(

This is so fucking annoying. You’d thought that they understood how pissed gamers were after those atrocious Psikyo ports… No one should buy this port, and everyone that already preordered it should ask for a refund directly to City Connection. Maybe that’ll prevent them to destroy yet another license in the future.

My copy still hasn't arrived from Amazon Japan Damn now I'm really worried I'm not super sensitive to lag but as soon as I heard 10+ frames of lag, something went down my spine

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

It's not going to be a pleasant experience I'm afraid to say.

WTF I pre ordered my copy and now it's too late to cancel because play asia is packing the order now and it doesn't let me cancel the order. Maybe I should've bought the PS4 version dammit :(

how's the framerate for the cotton reboot on ps4 I'm thinking about buying it

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

Cotton Reboot runs well!

Has anyone played this game post-patch? Is it playable yet? I’m not super sensitive to input lag but as long as it’s still fun to play

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

afraid not my friend. The patch only knocked off about 1.5 frames, still crazy laggy.

Damn its really disappointing that this got sent out the devolopers door like this. Thanks a million for the heads up Dude because I was considering adding this to my collection.

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

Made it in time! No problem :-)

Alright some good news, my order was in the process of packing as I said in my previous post but I explained the situation to Play Asia and they were happy to exchange the Switch version for the PS4 version. Hopefully the one on PS4 is going to have less lag/deelay

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

You will save yourself a frame of lag I believe. It's really a bummer you can't fully refund the game or swap it out for a different game.

@GamingPalOllieMK

2 жыл бұрын

@@TheElectricUnderground I honestly don't want to cancel and want to still own the game physical and original, but at this point it seems all I am paying for is a sub par emulator and a ROM. I dunno this is bad even for a casual shmup fan like me.

Not trying to talk crap since I am a fan of the channel, but watching the gameplay - are you aware of the chaining mechanics and special SF-esque inputs? When you kill an enemy with a charged shot they turn into an elemental orb ball and you can try and chain that to the end of the stage... Most fun part of the game for me.

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

Yes! this was just some gameplay I threw together uber quick ha, as I wanted to get the word out asap

Well, that sucks. PlayAsia just sent the CE on the 29th. Anyway to confront City Connection with this video and ask for a reply? Would be interesting to hear their side of the story. Also pre-ordered DeathSmiles. Should I cancel it?

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

I'm not on twitter but feel free to tweet this at City Connection, it is not right the condition of the game. Also yes CANCEL your deathsmiles pre-order. It might be ok, but I think it would be best to wait and see how it shakes out first.

How do you test input lag? Is your TV crap? Do you know how to setup your TV? so many questions you're not thinking about informing your viewers of the answer.

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

got the info right here! web.archive.org/web/20200119185023/electricunderground.io/input-lag-test-setup/ basically: 60 fps camera light wired to the direction input lagless hdmi to crt converter count the frames off the crt (a lagless display). My tests have been cross checked among other shmup players and youtubers :-)

I recently got Cotton2 digitally, and it works fine, or at least I don't notice any latency at all, was it already fixed?

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

I haven't heard about any fixes or patches.

Public service announcement: Patch dropped last month and is reported to reduce the input lag by around 2-3 frames depending on game and set up. Also a steam release was put out for PC and i dunno about the input lag on that version, but I'm guessing probably still worse than mednafn.

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

It actually just reduces the input lag by 1.4 frames in cotton 2 city-connection.co.jp/cotton/en/topics/

I been hearing there’s been updates on trying fix the lag issue. Would be appreciated if you check it out time to time and keep up to date on the progress

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

Hi my dude! So far the input lag update has hardly fixed the issue, still uber laggy. I doubt it can be fixed without just redoing the game and the way it's ported whole sale.

@The Electric Underground are you gonna do a new video on the February 10th patch?

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

I might! I m gonna hang tight cause I need to cover some other stuff but it is possible

Thanks for the honesty. Appreciate honesty reviewers and journalists 👍

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

I'm glad! Yeah it doesn't lead to popularity in the "industry" (my more critical reviews didn't go over well with Nintendo Life ha), but I think it's very important and it really bothers me to be wasting my viewers money on bad products.

Damn I was excited for this one, Thanks alot for the heads up! I almost bought this one blind just based on cotton reboot.

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah that's the tricky thing about it. Cotton Reboot is an excellent release so it would make sense that this would be a good release as well, but it's a different dev team.

I'm glad you're honest. Games shouldn't be re-released this way and reviewers shouldn't be giving better scores in anticipation of a patched version that they haven't played yet. You're doing the right thing.

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

I'm glad you feel that way my dude. I think in this case this is especially true because I'm not sure how much patching is going to be able to fix this, honestly they might not be able to do much about it without just re-doing the game completely.

11 frames of input lag !!! City Connection is litteraly pissing on their customers, this is a bad joke ! Thank you mate for letting us know, hope they will patch this real soon, how can they release and ask money for that ?

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

Idk, I d feel guilty honestly

How is this for Steam and if you don't mind I'd like to ask for a list of the best (perhaps most near arcade) versions of each Cotton game?

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

Oh I wish I knew more about the series and their ports, i know reboot is really well done, but beyond that I am less famiar with the new releases

@futureicon23

2 жыл бұрын

@@TheElectricUnderground So since what have gathered it seems like this: Cotton (Reboot): Nintendo Switch (and hopefully Steam) because not only you get to play the new playstyle but the awesomely refined Sharp X6800 playstyle too Cotton 100%: SNES Cotton 2: Sega Saturn Cotton Boomerang: Sega Saturn Guardian Force: Sega Saturn Rainbow Cotton: Sega Dreamcast Cheers