First and foremost, I love your channel man! So Thank You for so many great tips! I believe that its mostly about the room. I have recorded drums in my basement with a pretty low ceiling and the only workable OH position has been the Glyn Johns. I close mic everything plus top and bottom snare and a stereo room mic and get a decent all around sound of the kit. Peace!

I've been a recording engineer for YEARS now and I never cease to be amazed how moving a mic just a few inches can radically alter the sound it picks up. I've done everything. Marked the mic stand position on the floor with tape. Marked the mic stand with tape so I could return to the same microphone height. And yet the sound would still change from take to take! It's almost as if the mic itself changes from one session to another. It really does take a lot of experimentation to bring out the magic. By the way, the primary difference I hear between 5:43 and 5:50 comes from the lowered mic position picking up more of the bottom/reso side of the snare which is also reflecting from the floor. It's not as if the snare went away. I would just say it's bringing out a different aspect of the snare sound. In that position, it's to be expected.

good stuff, I always love to see and hear your approach

@creativesoundlab

7 жыл бұрын

Thanks!

Due to my budget, I only have a four channel interface so the Glyn Johns technique seems to be the only way to stay out of an expensive studio. It has worked wonders for me. I'm usually commended for my drum sound and when I say I only used 4 mics jaws drop. It is a challenge to get the right sound out of each mic in spaces that are not acoustically treated but that opens up a whole conversation of how creative you can (and will) get in order to achieve "that" sound. So far, I've gotten great drum mixes and a lot of cool stories to share. Eventually, I'll get a proper interface to close mic everything as needed, but even then the creative process won't die down. Great video!

@Gretsch0997

5 жыл бұрын

Hi Gabe, I’ll bet even after you gain more inputs, you will eventually go back to the Glynn method. I certainly did. ...great post!

Love the videos man, especially the ones on simple drum recordings (one mic, lo-fi, incorporating stomp boxes, etc.). I used to watch a lot of Recording Revolution vids. I like stuff that is simple to understand. Pensado's Place just seems like one long commercial. Your content is great, seems more rock'n'roll to me.

@creativesoundlab

7 жыл бұрын

Haha, thanks man!

glyn johns technique works really well on super-small cramped and heavily insulated (ergo terribly sounding) practice rooms/demo studios. tried many many many drum micing techniques but glyn johns kinda worked the best for my band's (non public) demos

@creativesoundlab

7 жыл бұрын

Nice, and glad you had that kind of luck.

This is very interesting. One of my favorite drum recordings I've had in my room was putting a single overhead just over the shoulder, with a kick and snare close mic. It worked so wonderfully. You ought to try it as well and see what results you get.

@creativesoundlab

7 жыл бұрын

Yeah, a close mic with that "Full" position that was kinda low...that wouldn't have been awesome sounding.

@Chris-sv8ty

Жыл бұрын

Whenever I put my overhead there I get way to much bass drum and floor tom

..."Chasing that tone and consistency will drive you nuts" Don't I know...🙄 ohhh the woes of recording in tight spaces. You work twice as hard. Great video 👍🏾

@creativesoundlab

7 жыл бұрын

Yeah totally. Some chefs get to cook with fillets. Others with chuck steak.

I've never used the Glyn Johns technique because I've never really felt the need to when I close mic everything. Although, for a 4-channel drum mic setup, I've had great results with the recorderman method along with a kick and snare mic (somewhat of an evolution of the Glyn Johns method). I've applied the same principles of the recorderman method to spaced pair in the sense that I pin an XLR to the kick and the middle of the snare, but the right microphone is naturally lower. I find doing this centres the kick and snare in the stereo image, and also provides you with a drum sound that is pretty solid right from get-go.

I'm been following your channel for quite while ever since you explain Glyn Johns technique got me interested on trying this technique and just about 2 months ago the opportunity presented itself in my church we have to my a drums on the second campus youth service and all we have was two shure sm27 and shure kick mic. We experiment so much with heights, angles and proximity that we're able to with system that works for us. The drums has a shield in the front and stands 6' 6" tall and 2' away from the drum kit, on the sides and back of drum kit there's some acoustic treatment as well as ceiling but all this doesn't make this drum kit be fully closed there is gaps in between the sides and the ceiling treatment also the shield. Even though we will get some drums bleed out we are very pleased to how it turn out to be. We been tracking the band all that we do is little bit of EQ, Compression we full drum kit doesn't matter how the drummer strikes the drums.

Measuring and matching the distance from both of the condensers to the center of the snare with eliminate some of your issues. Then, you just have to check the sound with the snare mic, mostly. Also, adding at least one room mic or a squash/crotch mic helps a ton.

Good video. Glynn Johns is my go-to when recording my own music. I play a lot of garage blues, so the temperamental vibeyness lends itself to that. You can get an awesome sound with some ribbon mics in the right room. Obv it's not something I would use on all my clients. With this technique you end up sacrificing a bit of control/definition in exchange for a specific character, so it boils down to the song/band.

@creativesoundlab

7 жыл бұрын

Yeah, totally agree. I love ribbon mics and I think they are in general easier to work with.

I use it almost exclusively, simply for one reason. I prefer less mics. This helps me to meet deadlines faster. I know the technique well and I know my room well. But raise the other mic to more of a Recorder-man method. Love it

I have moved away from using an overhead directly over the snare. To me, it usually sounds like that microphone is taking the top head, bottom head and attack all out of phase together and sort of killing the tone and body of the snare, so you're left with that dead snap sound like in the first example. Helpful video- thanks!

@creativesoundlab

7 жыл бұрын

Sounds like you have some single mic phasing going on with the ceiling. It should sound amazingly full and it should be most of your snare tone. See this demo from my recording in small rooms course: vimeo.com/212403457

I like to utilize the uneven nature of the GJ technique to get the hihat placed a little to the left in the stereo field without having to futz with a hihat mic.

the mixed version was made using just those 2mics? or with the individual ones?

Speaking of repeatable results, I started to use that Weathervane method in more sessions and I'm shocked at how consistent it is. Definitely recommend that if anyone has trouble getting something consistent.

@creativesoundlab

7 жыл бұрын

Brian always says that the WV method is super consistent for them too.

Thanks for the video, really useful! Did you try OH mics as mid/side mics? If they are in 90* it might work. Thanks again :)

@creativesoundlab

7 жыл бұрын

I have done that in the past yes. Totally different topic and it's good if you don't have matching mics but want stereo.

I'm not sure if this has been covered or not, or this is a silly question, but could you do Glen Johns with a room mic?

@creativesoundlab

6 жыл бұрын

Why not?

on the second record I ever did with a full band I used the Glyn John's technique on the drums out of necessity. we didn't have a bunch of mics and we wanted to record everything together. We were recording in a semi-treated medium large Band Room so there was a decent amount of space for the sound. as far as I know, the overhead mic is supposed to be close to the left ear of the drummer to get as close as the actual sound the drummer hears as opposed to setting it up high like a regular overhead. By setting up a 414 on the left side of my head and then the other one next to the floor tom pointed across the kit, I got a great sound. Granted I also own vintage drums and vintage cymbals... I don't know maybe it was beginners luck but that recording turned out awesome.... everything is focused and heard and the snare is dead center. after that recording though I did realize the downside which is that cymbals on the right side sometimes sound crazy if you crash them because of the floor tom mic as you have expained in other vids

@creativesoundlab

7 жыл бұрын

Yes, the cymbal rocking effect! If it worked for you then that is exactly what you needed to do. Never a right answer.

@Zack_Darce

7 жыл бұрын

Creative Sound Lab yep.. whatever gets the right is the right answer... sometimes I forget that basic tenant of art

@samuelcf97

6 жыл бұрын

do you have a link of that recording, curious to hear it

Glyn is/was my old school chum and when we left school he got a job at IBC studios and I had formed a rock band called The Presidents. At weekends Glyn would invite us up to the studio and try out his new skills and the combination got us signed to Decca Records. Here is a link to one of the tracks we recorded with Glyn at the controls which was passed to Decca but somehow got lost BUT was found in LA in 2018 and released that June - so here one hears one of his earliest productions mimed with the original line up which I managed to get together. Please share the link - @

@creativesoundlab

4 жыл бұрын

Very cool Robin, thanks for commenting and joining in!

I think the side mic is picking up a lot of reflection off the door that is to the left of you. May be why it sounds so much more full.

@creativesoundlab

7 жыл бұрын

Very possible. I will have to try opening the door and do a before and after

@therealandrewlund

6 жыл бұрын

Interesting if that's the case; my drum room has a window in that spot, and I get very similar results in my recordings with your mic placements. My mic setup has evolved over time and trial/error to look much like yours.

What nobody really talks about with Glyn Johns is that for those of us who have home/mobile studio rigs, the most common audio interfaces are going to come in a 2x or 4x or 8x format. So everybody with a 2x interface can't play. For everybody else then, the proponent of Glyn Johns method needs to make the case that 3 mics are better than 4. It would seem that the idea of the Glyn Johns is to maximize stereo width with minimal number of microphones, but I think this is counter-productive if the end goal is punch not width. I like the minimalist approach of Glyn Johns, but not the results --- so what I do is simply close mic the snare, mic the kick, and then use a mono overhead. When bands listen to drum tracks, what do they want? Snare and kick. So we give them the snare and kick. Everything else is for color.

@creativesoundlab

7 жыл бұрын

Yeah, that's some really good insight on that. It's interesting to think of how someone with x inputs would either be too little or take up all of the inputs. I don't mind your mono overhead idea at all, as it allows for adjustment of kick and snare.

@VenAqui415

5 жыл бұрын

I recorded my drummer for our last album using the Glyn Johns technique in my basement. I recorded all the songs in one room, and then later came up with a new song and recorded this last song in a different room. Only this last song I decided to go with a mic on the snare, one on the kick, and one mono over head mic. And honestly, this last track recorded with the mono OH sounded the best, and was easier to mix too.

Hey Ryan, I am guessing a single figure 8 mic placed over the shell of the kick might be a good candidate for small rooms as well. Thoughts?

@creativesoundlab

7 жыл бұрын

I think it sounds good but really depends on what mic and how it sounds.

@rufusambler7308

7 жыл бұрын

This is the technique popularized by Tchad Blake right? Where you place the front null of the mic facing the snare. If that's the one, it's pretty weird. Picks up very little cymbals, and doesn't pick up a full sound of the kick & toms, but has a very mid spikey sound of them which is pretty cool.

@billlord4203

7 жыл бұрын

Rufus, after I posted this comment I thought about the nulls and was thinking an omni pattern might be best. I recall seeing a video where a single mic was placed over the bass between the toms and it did a surprisingly good job of picking up all drums and cymbals. Although I would be curious to hear what it sounds like to place a figure 8 so the null is facing the kick. The pattern might be wide enough to capture all sounds effectively. Thanks.

now I'm conflicted. The books I've read in the past told me that the overhead mic for this setup goes to the left of the drummers head. After looking up videos on KZread of Glyn Johns himself setting up the overhead mic like you do, I'm very confused. I could have swore that top mic goes to the left of the drummers head next to his ear... Please try that without modifying any of the other mic placements and let me know if that works for you.. it certainly did for me..

@creativesoundlab

7 жыл бұрын

Yeah, there would still be the issues that I talked about in the video. It's all down to the room and perspective. Your room may have needed just that position to pull off a better sound. I've never seen it over the drummers left ear, but there is a variation that I like a lot better than this set up, and it has the mic over the snare, and the side mic is higher about chest hight. hihat is blocked by the drummers body into that side mic, and it avoids the cymbal rocking.

@Zack_Darce

7 жыл бұрын

Creative Sound Lab I'll have to try out that setup.. thanks again

bro i know you got that warm audio hookup so you needa do a review of the wa-14 asap so I can decide if I need to pre order one or whatever. also, great video as always but i dont have the luxury of playing acoustic drums anymore :'(

@creativesoundlab

7 жыл бұрын

Well I havn't been told I'm doing a video for the WA-14, but it's possible. I have heard good things. I know my vintage 414 gets a lot of use around here, so I'm sure the WA-14 will too.

@saam6768

7 жыл бұрын

im sure the vintage is legit but out of my budget. i think that's what warm is good for. i would never fool myself into thinkin the wa-12 sounds like a api 312 or the wa87 sounds like a vintage u87... but for the amateur home recorder its a great semi substitute. keep us posted, love the channel brother.

@creativesoundlab

7 жыл бұрын

Yeah, I got my 414 for 500 bucks, but then had to do a capsule replacement on it for another 500. Then some capacitors went bad in it because of it's age. I think the wa-14 will have a huge advantage of dependability if the sound is really close.

the actual "Glyn" method doesn't include a snare mic. If you ARE using a snare mic, then in truth a lower position, such as the one you demonstrate at one point, on the floor tom side that rejects more direct snare, actually creates a better overall image, as the central snare sound comes more from the close mic on the snare drum. and,, along those lines, I usually place the 'high side' mic more in front of the hanger tom looking down and in, rather than over the kit overall. Lastly, it all works much better with the pics assigned left and right, not 'panned in' which only creates more phase blur.

@lukpac

5 жыл бұрын

Johns did/does sometimes use a snare mic to varying degrees.

@PatchInAudio

5 жыл бұрын

weedywet he used a snare mic

I don't like that the kick is off-center in the "overheads". Maybe it's just me but I feel like as long as the kick and snare are nice and thick, right up the middle, it almost doesn't matter what the rest of the kit sounds like (to an extent). So it's always seemed a bit too asymmetrical for me. And that's even with good balanced drummers in awesome rooms.

@creativesoundlab

7 жыл бұрын

Yeah totally. Sounds like you have a lot of experience with this in a lot of rooms. Kick is tough as the attack of the kick can be coming out the back and it's hard to know where it's center actually is. I think as long as you have enough toms, then you won't need to have the overheads too loud in a mix, and rely more on the kick mic.

@i_am_jezebel3669

7 жыл бұрын

Creative Sound Lab Hey sorry, didn't realize you had replied me until just now. I have experience in five different live rooms for drum tracking. Maybe that's a lot, maybe it's not, I'm not really sure lol. I've always used overheads as my main drum sound and spot mics for attack. Never thought of using the toms in that manner. Slightly related note: there was one time though that I was dealing with a drummer that had such "unrefined" playing dynamics that I settled for just kick and snare mics. Though that was also before I started supplementing with samples.

I don't see it as the task of trying to get the mic's picking up the same sound... more to achieve a wide stereo image

There's a really fascinating interview with Kenny Jones where he makes the point that. Johns would also have a mic fed into a guitar amp and cab in separate room that was itself miced up and mixed into the final drum sound.

@creativesoundlab

7 жыл бұрын

That's a really great point.

@bluesrocker91

4 жыл бұрын

That's actually really interesting...

G. Johns could have used Geoff Emerick to set up Charlie's kit. He did wonders for Ringo.

my 2 cents...always set kit up so your back is in corner n bass drum is facing other corner. drums always sound better this. when u get angle rite kick drum gets more boom n sustain. smallish room with carpet helps.

@niteshademusic5262

7 жыл бұрын

better like this

I might be talking through my ass here, but I as far as I know, the Glyn Johns technique doesn't use overheads. From the players perspective, The main mic should be in front of the drums and slightly to the right, while the other one goes to the left and about a foot higher than the hi-hat. You want to get a good balanced sound with the first mic, and the second mic is supposed to help you get a clearer hi-hat and snare. Having one overhead mic would be the last thing you want, because it can never be balanced. I've heard really good results from - of all things - just one well placed Zoom H2n in front of a drumset and nothing else, which kind of confirms it for me. Am I getting something wrong?

@creativesoundlab

7 жыл бұрын

Out in front of the kit you will get a lot of snare under and kick. I've done videos on that position in the One Mic in a Small Room video, and also see my other videos on the Glyn Johns. Also consider the acoustic center of a drum kit. What you are describing is basically how the drummer faces with the snare down the middle. That might work, but it neglects other parts of the kit. The single mic video will address a lot of these questions.

@Herfinnur

7 жыл бұрын

Ok, just watched it now. Your final mic placement in that video is exactly where I meant, and then you blend the second mic in until you are satisfied with the hi-hat and snare. But I have to say it doesn't sound like it's necessary and if anything, the resulting stereo image might be too much like those 60s hard pan recordings. Love your videos by the way: I've experimented with using our building's staircase as a reverb chamber in the weekend when no one's there, and it's like some kind of magic! Check this out for a wild idea: record your reverb at a higher speed (e.g. if the recording is at 120 bpm, record it at a corespondingly higher pitched 180bpm), then slow it down to the original speed and pitch for some ambient mayhem. Not really suitable for American rock and pop, but for new Nordic music it's perfect :)

I wish I could get you to play drums with me. You probably don't feel like driving to Connecticut though......

Old school tuning?

As I was taught it, the whole trick isnt really that its strictly a drum mic technique but a way to get the whole rythm section together... with gobos on both sides of the drums and bass on floor tom side and gtr on snare side and both amps on the same axis as the kick drum..this method wasnt originally intended for just drums and when it works its flawless when it doesnt its shit. theres a podcast interview out there somewhere with Jeff Powell who assisted Glynn in the 90s where he goes into reall good detail. love the vids

@creativesoundlab

6 жыл бұрын

Very interesting, thanks for letting me know!

@reverendcarter

6 жыл бұрын

www.workingclassaudio.com/wca-015-with-jeff-powell/ story with glynn starts about 10:30 in Jeff 's got his lathe set up in Sam Phillips with Matt Ross Spang.

The one mic sounded best imo

@creativesoundlab

7 жыл бұрын

Simpler can be better in a lot of cases. I loved that sound actually.

1:44 Mmmmmm Beef :d

Glyn Johns Technique is only good if you have a nice sounding room

Okay, so no. I don't use the Glyn Johns technique. I use my technique.. And what is that? Step 1. Observe room. Big room? Small room? Small room. Then SDC. Big room. Then LDC overheads.. Step 2. 57's. On snare drum top and bottom. Rack Tom, Floor Tom, from underneath with 57's. Step 3. PZM in, bass drum. Step 4. Gate, kick, snare & Tom's. Step 5. Limit overheads. Eh voilà! And you'll have no problems. Add algorithmic gated reverb to taste. Consistency? Hell no. It depends on the drum set. And if you have studio drums. It can get really boring sounding. So it's great to mix it up. With different drum sets. So that you don't have boring consistency. So that you always have a fresh and different drum sound. Every time different. Unless you are trying to just be a one-hit pony? And only like to make one sound? That's, boring. As in, boring. As in always the same. Fine for George Massenburg. Not fine for me. I like variety. I like a challenge. I overcome challenges. It makes my brain work better. It improves my technique. It expands my horizons. And screw, Glyn Johns. And Eddie Kramer. And the whole lot of them. Glyn Johns, didn't even know how to get a pitch consistent tape edit, accomplishment. Geez, it shifted pitch? Yeah right stupid. The tape packs on the reels of tape were not consistent. DUH. So, you make them consistent. So you don't hear that stupid edit of an amateur. Try that with a Paganini violin Concerto and see how long you are an engineer for. And bye-bye stupid. Because that cut. Just don't cut it. And I did. I can. I do. I don't FUCK up. And I didn't when I was only, 22. In 1978. And stuck in edit in the middle of a 32nd, note violin run in a Paganini violin Concerto. Being told by the violinist virtuoso and accompanist. That edIT could not be done. Until they couldn't hear my edit. Because you not supposed to be able to hear the edit.. Because if you can. It's a lousy edit. Just like, Glynn Johns amateur edit. Ugh! What a rank amateur edit that was. And I suppose he didn't design and build the entire studio from scratch like I did? From the acoustics. To the console. To the recordings. And everything in between.. When you then absolutely positively also had to have an, EMT reverb plate, also. Because nothing else would do. Springs were crap. And real chambers were impractical. Unless you were a millionaire. And you could afford to build real underground chambers. If you didn't have a spare church lying around. And that gets a bit impractical. So we just use cheap algorithmic ones. And no one knows the difference. DUH RemyRAD

Well, that's part of the problem with, Large Diaphragm Condenser, microphones. It's that Off Axis pickup, that screws you. And no one seems to get that? So moral of the story kids. When in a small room. Don't use LDC microphones. Use, SDC, microphones. And you won't have that same problem. Because, it's a problem. And then people scratch their heads over it.. DUH? I wonder why that's happening? DUH? Both microphones are the same. Yeah but they're not in the same places in that small room. So unless you have a good-sized room. And most of you don't. LDC's can be, not so good. You need some real cubic feet with,, LDC microphones or it's a, nonstarter. You have to know how these microphones work. Then what kind of environment they best work in. And that comes from understanding microphone design. And then you discover. That velocity a.k.a. ribbon microphones are at a, 90° or 270° difference to that of dynamic and condenser microphones. And so they add and do not cancel. Or they cancel with addition. They are never in phase nor out of phase to that of dynamic or condenser microphones. They are at right angle phase. Because it's not picking up the sound pressure. It's picking up the sound velocity. It's a different principal altogether. But you have to know that. And how it works. In order to be able to make an intelligent, experienced and insightful, microphone selection. Natural sounding recordings don't come naturally. They are highly crafted to sound, or imitate that of natural. So they can be highly processed. To make them sound natural. Processed with extreme amounts of EQ. Extreme amounts of dynamic range compression. Extreme amounts of dynamic range limiting. Hefty amounts of, downward expansion. Sometimes all of the above in a spectral sense. Cutting up the frequency response into separate bands. And processing each band, independently indifferently. In order to make everything sound, natural. So the joke is on everybody. It ain't natural. It just sounds, natural. Out of a completely unnatural electronic reproduction system of varying expenditures. To imitate, emulate, that of a natural sound. Being highly unnatural. To sound, natural. This is what expert audio engineering is all about. It's not about doing nothing. It's not about finding the holy Grail of a single microphone. It's about audio engineering. That's why it's called, audio engineering. You have to know how to engineer, audio. And what makes audio work to be able to engineer it. But dummies don't have to do that. You only have to play computer games with audio software. To get. What it took us years to Establish and Engineer, for. You are now a single click away. With no need to exercise your brain. Or figure out how this was done. Back in the day. When we had stone knives and bear skins.. For recording equipment. DUH? How did they do that? We used our brains. And our knowledge, experience, talent and technique. What you guys will never have. And that's the story of actual audio engineering. By an actual audio engineer. Who can actually create the equipment myself. And then engineer hit making audio. And do it all live. Coast-to-coast and around the world on satellites. With stone knives and bear skins. I'm actually Scotty from Star Trek. RemyRAD

It's terribad imo

@creativesoundlab

7 жыл бұрын

Haha, yeah. I'm trying to make the best of the Glyn Johns.

@currywinborn3129

7 жыл бұрын

I totally get why you feel the way you do about it. The toms sounded great but the snare sounded super lame. That single mic set up you did sounded amazing though.