It’s okay to mention our names and link to our video with the story for more context. We appreciate your analysis on this and we’re glad to see that our (bad) experience will help prevent others from struggling the way we struggled.

@ariaraman

4 ай бұрын

Looking forward to your next video where DAN is directly coming and answering. As unfortunate as the incident was for Woody and his companions, I'm glad that this was caught by a popular channel like Dive Talk, because as you can see even after the 1st hand witness report still big companies like DAN try to pay off other media to cover their wring doing instead of saying we F Up and we are sorry. As others mentioned before, I also highly doubt this would have got this much of media attention and DAN'S attention if it happened to someone other than Woody who has access to a large right audience.

@danieavail403

4 ай бұрын

Was just about to comment this , I'm glad woody is feeling better

@jonathanramsay530

4 ай бұрын

Bump

@christinaramzel

4 ай бұрын

@@ariaraman Truth. I'd be dead, if it had been me! @divetalk needs to SCREAM it from the mountain tops and DAN needs to put up or shut up (get out of the insurance of divers!)

@EEEZSolutionS

4 ай бұрын

You guys are too kind!

I am sorry Mark but you should not be making excuses for Dan! You made it sound like it was a smaller mistake made but it was a huge mistake made by Dan. Also let’s be honest, would Dan have responded like this if it was just any diver. In this case it was Woody from Dive Talk with a huge following.

@MrReivilos

4 ай бұрын

I agree. As if DAN was a newcomer in the business.

@jamesbenners9114

4 ай бұрын

DAN has a documented history of declining benefits to paid memberships when a medical need for benefits occurs. They did it to my wife and I on an accident we had in Spain and after wasting our time in the Seville hospital, refused to repatriate my wife back to the states for proper care. Take a poll of how many divers had DAN and see how many received their benefits as advertised by DAN when a disaster struck. I’ll bet there are enough to launch a class action lawsuit. In my opinion, DAN sells a false sense of security which can be deadly!

That’s the case of woddy from diver talk channel, I think if that happened to someone less popular in the diving community,they would never reveal or change anything.

@SgtMajorRedFlag

4 ай бұрын

My takeaway from this accident is that if anything similar ever happens to me, I’ll make a KZread video about it and send it to dive talk to make a reaction video

@tvelocidad

4 ай бұрын

They definitely wouldn't have made changes. I have two close friends who had similar experiences with DAN, and not only did they have to pay out of pocket, but they didn't get a dime for reimbursement. DAN isn't the sweet, ethical company that everybody thinks they are.

@SgtMajorRedFlag

4 ай бұрын

@@tvelocidad they should make a video on it!

Come on Mark! Having to pay for a medical evacuation by plane out of pocket is a little more than " could have added to other costs or complications". Woody had to get 50 000$ credit. Lucky for him American Express came through. I don't know anyone with that kind of credit score!

@dannyberg4294

3 ай бұрын

I'm curious what would have happened if he couldn't get it. It wasn't in the states, so what are the rules/laws there? Would he have been SOL, just "welp, that sucks for you" and denied treatment?

This video wasn't helpful because you didn't engage (or even acknowledge!) DiveTalk's video account of what happened. Missed opportunity for an objective, 3rd party perspective.

Just say it... the incident involved Woody from dive talk. You or DAN sure are making it sound like DAN only botched it a little. That's not how it went down. DAN completely blew it and it's not the first time that I've heard this similar story of DAN completely screwing over a policy holder. Two of which were close friends of mine. Divers need to hear these stories so they can make educated purchasing decisions for their insurance. Nothing worse thinking your covered in case of an emergency only to find out that they will hang you out to dry when sh*t hits the fan. If you want the real story, dive talk posted a video on the incident.

@SgtMajorRedFlag

4 ай бұрын

Apart from generic travel insurance, I only know of DAN for dive specific stuff. Could you recommend any other insurance?

@Banshee01011

4 ай бұрын

The video from Dive Talk isn’t the ‘real’ story. It is one side of the story.

@tvelocidad

4 ай бұрын

@Banshee01011 One side of the story that just so happens to match the stories that two of my close friends went through with DAN. Additionally, are you saying their story, directly from their mouths, isn't the real story? What, do you work for DAN or something? So you can think it's one-sided, but after three events that are almost identical, I'm going to believe their side. I would put money on it that there are many more out there that have experienced this with DAN. We just haven't heard of them because they don't have a following. I can tell you that DAN did NOTHING to rectify what happened to my friends and they sure didn't make any positive changes from what happened to them.

This is disappointing PR. According to the original reporter, DAN declined to accept the DCI diagnosis already provided. It’s one thing if they said “hang on we will review it”. But to deny it was a dangerous and stress inducing decision.

I don't understand why you wouldn't identify the diver in question and direct people to the video with the first person account of the situation.. This report sure does make light of a situation that revealed gross neglicence from DAN. And these changes, allthough important, are a clear and shameless attempt at a save face. How did the supposed top dive insurance provider are only now putting in place 'detailed emergency action plans for key dive destinations'??? I, for one, am glad not to be insured with than and will be making my due diligence in investigating my current insurance provider.

Ok i understand that they might not know of transportation in every country or every corner of the world but a popular dive place like the bahamas! Seriously thats a crazy argument, i would agree if they were diving a cenote in the middle of bumfeck nowhere but popular dive destinations should be well covered by DAN as thats where most of the money is going to be spent.

@SgtMajorRedFlag

4 ай бұрын

I guess that’s why they’re taking the air travel department in-house now

@absabs3811

4 ай бұрын

@@SgtMajorRedFlag I appreciate that but as a Dan member for years I had always assumed that would have been the case anyway.

Please refer to the diver in question by name since he's a public figure - woody from dive talk

As a diver paying for a DAN insurance, this thing was very unsettling. Many people dive in places where decompression treatment or any medical treatment for that matter, can get very expensive, very fast - this is why we pay for DAN. If Woody would not have head the money to cover for the emergency services and a trained and supportive crew by his side, he would likely be dead or badly injured. DAN will really have to step up their game, before somebody ends up dead with their insurance card in the pocket.

I hope DAN also implements a proper escalation procedure to get a DAN's physician to talk to the attending physician rather than having a non-medical advisor working from a script.

Sorry, I disagree on one of your last points about in an emergency you have to wait for the airport to reopen if it closes. I can’t speak for all the airports, but the majority of them in the Caribbean will have emergency air transportation that can fly out, ( severe weather dependent), in an medical emergency.

@lilletrille1892

3 ай бұрын

I find it puzzling that the lack light would be better in 24, twenty four! hours!

As previous writers already mentioned, this incident happened to diver pros very known in the divers scene. Alone the fact that it took DAN more than two weeks to issue any reaction is a sign that they are not the organisation they are trying to make us believe they are. Luckily we have a very good alternative to DAN here in Europe and I will definitely look at the result of this case before I decide to extend my pro membership in April or change over to the other provider. Actually I was just thinking to cancel my AMEX this year, but now I definitely won’t.

Same type of concern with the evac. Dan’s travel provider said evac wasn’t possible due to airport lighting. That proved to be a false statement, which complicated and delayed evacuation. I speculate they meant “It’s too expensive for us” but decided to deceive instead. Very scary!

@lilletrille1892

4 ай бұрын

Mind you, if the airport lightning was the issue, why tell the member he would have to wait 24, twenty four, hour?!

@SgtMajorRedFlag

4 ай бұрын

Yeah they will need to review their contract with this “world’s top-rated travel assistance company”. Apparently they’re already in the midst of undertaking the travel assistance portion in-house instead of outsourcing it.

@SgtMajorRedFlag

4 ай бұрын

@@lilletrille1892 yeah cuz 24 hours later it will still be exactly the same lighting conditions LOL. I can’t wait to see the actual phone transcript

As I'm sure you're aware DAN cover is slightly different around the world - in the UK we're covered by DAN Europe. In 1991, the International DAN (IDAN) Federation was formed as an umbrella organization, which in addition to DAN Europe and DAN US, included DAN Japan, DAN Asia Pacific and DAN Southern Africa. Therefore, we really need to know how their SOPs differ between the various DAN sub-organisations? Another question - if a US member needs help whilst in Europe (or one of the other DAN areas), is this support provided by DAN Europe and their more local knowledge? - in which case DAN Europe SOPs would affect US divers (and vice versa). Is Scuba Diver Magazine able to do the journalistic leg work to get answers to these questions? #askmark

Honestly disappointed by this coverage. It sounded you just read the DAN article even though other sources were available to you. If you're telling me DAN can't help with evac, then what's the point of me getting DAN membership?

Unsubscribed

@shaunspadafora7943

4 ай бұрын

Same

Sorry, Mark, there is more to the story, quite disappointed, you had good content in the past, but this one, no! I wonder how this would have gone if not a bunch of really prominent divers would have been involved in the story (Woody Alpern, Gus Gonzales, Brian Kakuk, Doug Ebersole,…)

Yeah, that's a no from me for this video. They messed up and only after they realized who it was and what kind of a PR nightmare is brewing did they change their tune. Otherwise he woud have been sod out of luck. I am really disappointed by your stance on this topic. They left him to die. There is no excuse for this. Stop trying to fix this for them. Especially the excuse you made for them "they don't have contact on every island in the world". THIS IS EXACTLY WHY WE ARE PAYING THEM AND WHAT WE EXPECT OF THEM! Also I do not have 30k on tap so I'd probably only be able to afford to lie down and die on that island.

Another shocking reminder that in the US, money is a greater concern than the life of a human!

Sorry but quite a bad analyses of what really happened (by Dive Talk) 😒.

@fangviolence

4 ай бұрын

You have DCS

It must be a very uncomfortable position to be carrying water for DAN. The amount of money made and time allowed in learning and understanding the realities of dive accidents should have eliminated the possibility of this lack in service. I, for one, will be searching alternative options and hope everyone does the same. DAN, you will hopefully understand from this, that an immense amount of trust and faith has been lost in this very public incident. And I truly wish it reflects in your bottom line this year. Regardless of the excuses, this should never have been allowed to happen only 40 miles off the coast of Florida. I can only imagine what has happened before and what we have never heard about. You've been caught with your pants down DAN.

@rabblerousin8981

4 ай бұрын

Absolutely

i guess my only question would be, what if you’re diving somewhere and there is no physician at all? for example a liveaboard

My husband and I are leaving the DAN network because of this incident. We have the top membership. Not worth the false sense of security.

If this is the long therm solution i am asking me what have they done before? Isnt this the standard?

It might be a good idea to have multiple transport options & contacts in certain diving “hotspots” around the world(relative to coverage). There must be enough historical data to help determine where to focus DAN’s travel & chamber resources. I’d bet that the Bahamas would make their top 10 list.

Based on the story told by Dive Talk, DAN refused to pay for the air ambulance to Nassau at the time of the event.

So much for feeling like you're covered just because you have DAN. As divers we think they have our backs because they specialize in diving insurance. At the end of the day, they're just another insurance company.

I'm trying to be unbiased here--but I'm not perfect. First of all, both DAN and the diver (we all know who it is) share some responsibility here--because like one commenter stated, the diver did not seek treatment until well after the dive and well after the onset of symptoms. But this is far more common than not (divers experiencing some discomfort who have dived a conservative profile telling themselves "it cannot be DCS"). DAN is aware of this (many articles about it informing divers to seek treatment right away). So DAN, more than anyone, should be well aware that with respect to calls to their medics--that the call may be made hours (or even a day or 2) after the dive. Just last year I dived with someone who had that happen. DAN needs to be ready to spring into action when they get the call. However, once DAN was contacted, they royally pooped the blankets on how this was handled--and I am glad that it appears everything turned out to be OK in the end. First of all, DAN should not be relying on a physician's diagnosis to confirm DCS (or any other dive-related malady for that matter). Many times, a physician is not available at all (think: liveabord). Once the emergency arises and DAN is informed of the symptoms, DAN should spring into action full-stop--that is what they are marketing to us that we (myself included) are paying for. If they're not going to do that, then they need to be transparent and simply say that while they'll provide the insurance, it's up to the member/insured to arrange for treatment and transportation (and lower their costs commensurately). If it turns out that the treatment was not dive related or is otherwise not covered under the insurance policy or membership agreement, they can settle that with the diver later (perhaps informing the diver that they owe DAN the money, and ought to make a claim under other insurance the diver may have, pay DAN directly back, etc.). Point is, EVERY EFFORT should be made to get the person to appropriate treatment as quickly as possible without regard to a diagnosis, paperwork about income, etc. Along that line, if DAN needs that information, then they should simply request it when members are signing up or renewing for purposes of providing effective treatment more quickly (IE - such as having the member sign HIPAA forms, providing their medical insurance information, etc.). BIG OPPORTUNITY here for improvement at DAN and I hope it happens because, quite honestly, this is not the first I have heard of members being required to pay exorbitant expenses to a foreign provider out of pocket prior to treatment or evacuation. The evacuation business (and medical business, for that matter) in other countries is largely a "pay first" enterprise otherwise the providers get stiffed, so DAN needs to be aware of that and make strict provision for that in their processes so that the evacuation and treatment of the member is seamless and lives can be saved. Behind the scenes, DAN should not only be updating their databases, but contracting with additional providers (medical AND evacuation providers) on all these little islands where people dive so that their arrangement of the life-saving care needed by the diver can be as quick and seamless as possible. Again, that's what we're paying for.

Mark, you really screwed up on this one . Why did you lend yourself to this propaganda ?

I tried to post the experience my wife and I had with DAN on this post but it was obviously censored although it was written kindly in kind words. Not cool slanting the narrative to protect DAN.

On your closing point, it's worth noting that the dive in question appears to have been performed with a very careful and conservative decompression, but Woody still got severely bent. We all need to note that the numbers on planners and dive computers represent statistics, not certaintly. I'm looking forward to Gus and Woody's report after their meetings with DAN, but there is no doubt DAN thoroughly dropped the ball here. If the divers had all ended up with DCS and had been incapable of making their own arrangements someone could have died. The important thing now is to avoid the blame game, to ensure that the real lessons are identified and acted on.

Hi Mark thank you the digest of DAN’s 1st reaction to Woody’s DCI accident and the improper handlings of the aftermath. For those who are interested, here’s the the link to Woddy’s initial account of the events: kzread.info/dash/bejne/gWuC1cypmbOxZ9I.htmlsi=zVMR5dS1d6mfVHcA

This was an EPIC failure byDAN! After 40 years of providing diver services, I’m amazed that it took so long for them to institute these changes! Their performance could have had lethal results! What if it was me? I don’t have a platinum Amex card!

Is there some kind of conflict of interests going on here? this video may as well have been released by DAN themselves. Doesn't seem like journalism and certainly smells a bit off. No one knows what would have happened had the diver in question (Woody from Dive Talk) had not been in a position to save his own life, but we do know that DAN utterly failed in their duty to provide the service many of us pay for, and hitherto had assumed would be there when at the moment of most need.

MARK makes a Good Politician. Should support BP that people are the reason we have Global Warming.

I agree with many of the negative comments below... had this been someone other than the Dive Talk team, I doubt these changes would ave been implemented! This is not a good look for DAN..... just think, had Woody not had the AMEX card with adequate resources, he may not have survived this accident. Further, how many people have a $30,000 in reserves, cc or otherwise!?? Additionally, my recollection is DAN outright denied the DX... Since when does a medical professional need a consult on so obvious a DX? I'm in cardiology and can tell you a 3rd year med student could have concluded it was DCS!

Well, it sounds like DAN has a lot of homework to do, and I'm curious to know how fast these changes will be executed/in effect. For now I would not like to bet my life on it...and I hope that noone else has to experience what Woody did that day.

This prospective made me very uncomfortable. Why not name the diver this happened to? They have a very in depth recount. The way DAN handled the situation could have easily lead to woodys death or severe disability. This wasn’t a small oopsy, its a huge deal and changes need to be made.

Dive Talk's vid about it: kzread.info/dash/bejne/gWuC1cypmbOxZ9I.html

I agree with a lot of comments here. I'd already watched the dive talk video ( kzread.info/dash/bejne/gWuC1cypmbOxZ9I.htmlsi=ZlyBJDYf-L-PBzxS ) and the DAN reaction is worrying to say the least. If Woody, like most of us mere mortals, didn't have the financial means what devistating life changing outcome could have occurred. Some credit goes to DAN for not sweeping this under the carpet (I don't know that they could've after the dive talk video) and I hope that DAN do implement the changes they say they are to adequately protect their clients, but I remain a little skeptical of any insurance company as my experience suggests they always put money first before the good of their clients. The computer always says "no" type of thing. We shall see. Would I take out DAN insurance is a big question at the moment. Mark: I generally love your videos, but I feel you fell a bit short on this one for reasons already stated by others

Not surprised this is just overly positive. Ive never once seen any video on this channel that has negatives. Every gear ‘review’ is just a ‘very nice’ video and not once gives the negatives. But somehow Mark still gets his face all over KZread

kzread.info/dash/bejne/gWuC1cypmbOxZ9I.htmlsi=Xs_G3PxskXynavdg Story from DAN seems different from Divetalk. So who’s right? They said they have reimburse the payment in 1 week time as if the payment was easily reimburse back without hassle. Which is not true, anyone dealt with insurance claim before will surely understand this. Have to wait til they meet up discuss together with the transcript.

Good grief. "In an emergency, time is often of the essence." Yeh, always, by definition. Stop making excuses for DAN. The diver was in the USA. DAN has the capacity to search for and contact local Medevacs, just as the individual in question was required to do. This whole scenario was absolutely mindbogglingly absurd. The notion that someone who's bent should fill out any paperwork - absurd. It was the single most embarrassing example of a healthcare system and healthcare insurer that I've ever observed. Add to that, your suggestion that things might have been further delayed.... *Would have,* because without the use of the customer's AMEX card, they would have likely been permanently brain injured or dead. You come across as a bootlicker. Unsubscribed for the obvious defence of the indefensible.

@rabblerousin8981

4 ай бұрын

Cheers to this! Agreed Rattus

I think DAN got off too easy and Im doubtful of improvements.

Thanks for the recap. Obviously many divers heard about the event of last December.

This video does active harm by minimizing the events, making it look like their procedures are not as severely broken as they really are, and offering less culpability than they deserve. Producing this video was a waste of everybody’s time. How much does DAN give you? Why isn’t your allegiance to the diving community and diver safety?

this video sounds like it’s made from someone being sponsored by DAN. what if the person injured didn’t have that kind of money to pay for medical costs? they would’ve suffered huge consequences or not even be alive. this is greatly undermined the severity of DAN’s gross negligence and failure to commit to policy standards. what’s the point of even having a DAN insurance if they’re not going to do what’s being promised?

This was a rather passive review of DAN's failures. Disappointed, Mark. The standard diver could not have dropped the nearly 30k it took to manage his own care. Additionally, DAN attempted to blame the Abaco attending and pass the buck on a lot of other missteps, stating this was isolated. It was not. This is one of many. I do hope DAN changes.

Okay, to be fair and give credit where due, the SOP changes seem spot on. Hope is renewed!

A physician in the Bahamas could not spot DCS? There's your problem...

@zgo8553

4 ай бұрын

William, would you choose your dive spots by first reviewing the local doctor`s capacity to diagnose DCS?

@cwilliams6884

4 ай бұрын

@@zgo8553if dan requires an attending physician to diagnose before they will go into action, then maybe we all should pick dive spots based on that

@zgo8553

4 ай бұрын

@@cwilliams6884 sure, DAN or any other insurance company could choose to go down that path, and maybe some people would still choose their services. This however would put them in a type of "network only" kind of insurance or "DAN covered and not covered dive spots" - only this is not what their are advertising and selling now

Thank you for your thoughtful analysis of DAN'S response. It's good to see some accountability. Hopefully lessons learned will lead to positive change.

I don't know. In my view , they did great. Problems have been identified, and they are taking steps to resolve them.

@rabblerousin8981

4 ай бұрын

Admitting fault when their existing systems drop the ball this outrageously hard isn’t exactly inspirational. It’s the very least they can do.

Let's not forget that the people in scope decided that chewing on some ribeyes and fucking around for hours was more important than calling dan in the first place.

@edwardwhitehill6658

4 ай бұрын

DAN completely dropped the ball on this, have in the past, and there will not be significant enough changes to ensure divers can totally count on DAN in an emergency. However…as I watched the initial video put out by Dive Talk I too wondered what the hell they were doing. It was ludicrous that action was not being taken when it was clear there was a problem. Besides the problems associated with DAN which must be addressed we as divers at every level need to be educated in DCS, dive related medical issues, the immediate process divers should follow (better safe than sorry actions/reactions), and removal of all stigmas which stand in the way of divers making wise decisions. They should have made better decisions and did not.

Guess I'm missing where DAN failed. DAN are not an airline. Not a hospital. Their 3rd party provider dropped the ball. Needing to fill out paper work? This is really a big issue? The guy in question exited the water with symptoms, got on O2 and took a nap. He is an instructor as well as his dive buddies. They still did nothing. Hours later, ignoring symptoms, they finally go to clinic. Still haven't called DAN. Finally they call DAN. But DAN's response is too slow? It's late. Small country. No local dive medicine specialists. The locals ignore offered support from DAN. I just don't see what DAN did wrong. They are an insurance company. Woody thinks DAN should take every call they get at face value and ask how high when told to jump. There are checks and balances for everything in this world. Even for KZread personalities. That said, DAN still seem to be willing to look for better options.

Thanks I will continue to use DAN as it it is the only real game in town. It is going to get better

No question that this incident was poorly handled initially and that money should not determine care. However, as people and organizations are not perfect, we are left with continuous improvement processes to try and prevent similar problems in the future. DAN’s response to this lapse seems reasonable, ie, continuous improvement protocols when failures found, just as we are seeing with the FAA and Boeing and aircraft safety failures. Thanks Mark for dissecting this incident.

@cwilliams6884

4 ай бұрын

agree, airlines are only as safe as they are because people learned from previous crashes. it’s sad but it’s the reality of how things improve

@rabblerousin8981

4 ай бұрын

lol. You think Boeing is taking improvements seriously? It’s petitioning for less strict reviews of its technology, the same week that plane had the rapid decompression.

I have watched the dive talk video and the 2 of them are very good at bad mouthing DAN. Not to say that DAN did everything right, but I have to question why the 2 of them are not reviewing all aspects of the dive. I question what the dive plan was prior to jumping in the water? Woody appeared to be surprised by the fact that his dive computer showed 70 minutes of deco time. Woody stated that he was getting a headache at 100 FSW. Was it DCS or oxygen toxicity? They blow off any possible scenarios by stating that their equipment was working perfectly. Anytime a diver has an issue underwater it is important for them to evaluate what they did right and what they did wrong. In my opinion yes DAN made some mistakes, and they are looking at what they did wrong to try and correct them. They 2 guys on dive talk appear to have the attitude that we did everything right and DAN did everything wrong.