Erin, this is a home run my friend. So well illustrated and explained. Thank you for all of the disclaimers, but don't let the haters get you down. This was FANTASTIC!

@ErinsAudioCorner

2 жыл бұрын

Thank you so much for the kind words!

@dilbyjones

2 жыл бұрын

Yep, sussinct!

@robwatumd

10 ай бұрын

@@ErinsAudioCorner Don’t recognize the haters in the video, it gives negative vibes, believe in yourself and your content

Erin; Nice video and great analysis. Oddly, I posted a response in the comments last night but I don’t see it so here it goes again: You forgot about the worse horizontal offending topology, the infamous TWWWT design. Absolutely dreadful listening experience for anyone that isn’t directly on center. Pink noise aberrations are much easier to hear than actual program material and worth noting. It’s hard to believe we covered this topic over 15 years ago but here is our original article on audioholics. But then I revisited realizing most people don’t sit more than 20 deg off axis and if they do, it’s usually by a side wall and not a good listening or viewing seat anyway. It’s important to note that AT screens are NOT without their issues, especially vinyl ones. I measured significant on/off axis comb filtering on a very expensive screen I’m currently using from Screen Innovations. To overcome some of these issues, you must build the screen OFF the wall to get it away from the speakers and also use heavy absorption material between the speakers. I plan on doing a YT video on this, hopefully soon. IF you ever want to collaborate and come on our channel to discuss these topics, I’m game.

@ErinsAudioCorner

2 жыл бұрын

Here are the links for what Gene is talking about: www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/vertical-vs-horizontal-speaker-designs www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/center-channel-speaker

@arranstokes4080

2 жыл бұрын

@@ErinsAudioCorner im just thankful for the videos but would love to see the off axis response and handling of monitor audio c350. I kniw thats asking a bit much but im guessing it should similiar to the svs prime with similiar design maybe even better as i would assume monitor audio make a better speaker than svs....

@carlosoliveira-rc2xt

2 жыл бұрын

A common sense uneducated person already knows they don't sit much off axis and wouldn't have to revisit nonsense they wrote 15 years ago.

@ErinsAudioCorner

2 жыл бұрын

@@carlosoliveira-rc2xt calm down, fella. Plenty of people have home theaters where others sit further than 15 degrees off axis. That’s who this was for. Common sense dictates no one sitting on-axis is 15 degrees off axis. It’s in the nomenclature.

@daveycrockett5738

Жыл бұрын

Is wwtww a decent center channel topography design?

This is probably the best video I have watch. Everyone just talks about timber match speakers and the center speaker being the most important but no one done what you did. Much kudos to you sir. 👏

@ErinsAudioCorner

2 жыл бұрын

So nice of you to say. Thank you very much.

This was really fantastic, thank you for putting the effort in. I'm not in the market for more gear at the moment, but I want you to know that I took the time to email SVS and thank them for participating in this video by sending a review speaker and that their openness and support for independent reviewers matters a lot when it comes time for me to upgrade.

@ErinsAudioCorner

2 жыл бұрын

First, thank you for the support! Second, cool of you to email SVS. I'm sure they'll appreciate that.

@TheBassallyear100

2 жыл бұрын

now if they can just slide an SVS Ultra Center on over there too!

@cliffdavis

2 жыл бұрын

@@TheBassallyear100 oh man, if only those Ultra towers were available in a more exciting finish, like cherry/oak/walnut. Black Ash is just the most boring speaker look ever, it is like a silver over black German car. No matter the performance, I look at it and think 'for that much money it should have more presence'.

@brandonbrodbeck6688

2 жыл бұрын

I have them in piano black and they look amazing idk who wouldn't spend the extra for the piano black. To me they actually look better then they perform. I heard some other cheaper ones that sounded better for a little less money but dear God the piano black was just too good looking to pass and I figured i could always upgrade the internals.

@TheBassallyear100

2 жыл бұрын

@@brandonbrodbeck6688 it's a shame they don't make the ultra's in gloss white too. i love the sub and elevations in white.

Finally, measurement confirmation that MTM speakers should not be laid down on their sides (as almost all center channel speakers are). I've argued this point until I was blue in the face for almost 30 years.

@normanham6142

2 жыл бұрын

Ok Mark, that’s quite enough! 🥴

@normanham6142

2 жыл бұрын

You are correct sir! Most center channel designs are for convenience and ease of placement right under screen. Plus, most seem to be 2-way crossovers. Bad all the way around for best sound. Based on recent research, I’m considering a 3-way vertical alignment to test the difference for myself. I sometimes have trouble hearing dialogue in my HT rig. That’s what started my research. Great topic Erin! 👍🏼😎

@alltehstuffs

2 жыл бұрын

I too have been known to argue that center can be used as L/R if you rotate the tweeter. Sometimes to pleasant results. And it’s a good way to save some cash sometimes cause centers go on sale for great deals pretty often.

@Ratboy1

2 жыл бұрын

@alltechstuffs: I'm using a pair of Elac center channels as my main L/R in my theater setup. Luv 'em!

@Ratboy1

2 жыл бұрын

...stood on edge, i.e vertically

Erin, this was fabulous data you've shared. Everyone is pretty much told " match the centers with your mains for best linearity " which I found personally is not the case. I'm not surprised though to see how even and wider the sound dispersion is with the KEF Q650C / the methodology behind this design makes it a much better choice. Thanks again for all the work you do brother!

Audio Advice affiliate link: www.audioadvice.com/?referral=erins-audio-corner Amazon affiliate link: amzn.to/3guFPYB SVS: bit.ly/3slB1u9 The above links may earn me a small commission at no additional cost to you.

@AwesomeSauceShow

2 жыл бұрын

Hi Erin, I was soo looking forward to seeing the Elac UC52 radiation pattern, too bad you didn't include it.

@ErinsAudioCorner

2 жыл бұрын

@@AwesomeSauceShow I reviewed and posted the data last month. erinsaudiocorner.com/loudspeakers/elac_uc52/

@ericalbert4030

2 жыл бұрын

Erin, I think your Amazon affiliate link is not working/ incorrect. It just brings me to the main Amazon home page in the web browser. I even signed in to my account and tried again for the hell of it and same thing, just the home page.

Finally !!! Thank you for a tech tutorial about center channel speakers. With old ears & damaged hearing I need all the help on dialogue that I can get from my cc. After a year of research, I narrowed the replacement for my Elac Debut 5.2 cc down to the Kef R2c, the SVS Ultra cc, and the Elac Uni-Fi Ref cc. I ended up with the SVS Ultra and it helped dialogue by a bit on-axis but the improvement off-axis was significant.

Erin, this is easily one of your best videos to date. Fantastic presentation!

@ErinsAudioCorner

2 жыл бұрын

Wow, thank you!

Hi Erin, I recently watched some of your videos and you're one of the few on youtube who is really on point on loudspeakers and acoustics. Unfortunately the internet is full of (biased) misinformation and voodoo so your channel is a breath of fresh air so to speak. You get a big thumbs up from me, so keep those videos coming! I've designed and build my fair share of loudspeakers in the last 35 years, ranging from hifi and studio monitors to PA / MI loudspeakers.

One of your best videos yet! Very informative! I really liked you adding the 0deg vs. 25deg frequency response graphs near the end. Made it easier to understand. Thanks!

Damn.... Every time I think I've gotten things figured out I find more great information !!! This process has been so over whelming I don't know if I'll ever be able to decide what to purchase. Great video, please keep doing what you do.

@ErinsAudioCorner

2 жыл бұрын

haha. I hear ya'.

Just use the same front speaker as center , so much better. What I did was use 2 , 3 way centers and both set up not budded up against one other to prevent cancellations. Also important to note , they are both driven by dedicated amps (so not put in series or anything) Works really well to get the a insane wide horizontal dispersion.

Outstanding video! Out of the dozens of speakers I own and have owned the best measuring and performing setup I’ve ever used in my specific room is 3 identical Mirage HDT-F’s. They’re older but were made in Canada back when Andrew Welker and Ian Paisley were still doing amazing things and utilized the Canadian NRC anechoic chamber to engineer a number of their speakers. 20 years ago they were $4500 for all 3 and they each use two 6.5” woofers, two 3” titanium deposit midranges and one 1” pure titanium tweeter. For a large bookshelf speaker they’re better built than a good portion of the stuff out there now and better than anything at any big box retail store, I believe they each weigh about 50lbs, they use 1” MDF and definitely pass the knock test. With no room correction or equalization they have a flat on axis response from 200hz-20KHz and off axis is very similar in performance. I set up all 3 vertically and I’ve never been able to match their performance. I even went as far as trying 3 Revel Performa F50’s which are phenomenal speakers and I picked up two pairs of them for $500, however after all the effort of setting up a tower that weighs 100+lbs, the performance was the same.

Thank you so so much for this such a quality video. Takes so much effort do such an educational video. A rare gem in an era of "Influencer' videos with no data and ten minutes of pointless talking.

This is by far the best video on center channel speakers on youtube , and it’s not bull but real facts and I wish I knew about the different types of speakers a year ago when I was looking for the center channel for my system. I went with the Polk ES35 and I added a small subwoofer and personal it was the only one I was ok with mostly because of the clear dialogue and the added subwoofer I used was because of Erin’s suggested that it would help. I have to say that this is your best video yet for me personally and I appreciate your explanation of this topic that I am sure that many of us have been waiting for. Thanks Erin.

This video has taught me so much about center speakers, has probably saved me from a misinformed purchase of a not so good center. Thanks so much! Would love to see you review the Polk R700 towers & Polk L400 center

Wooow. What a great video. Good job on dropping the knowledge. Very tehnical and informative. I wish more companies would make a 3 way design because it’s the obvious choice. And they could easily manage it with a 7-8” tall cabinet , 3-4” mid and 6,5” woofers and front ported so you can place it even in a cabinet. Depth and width can be different sizes. Me for one , have made my 9 channel purchase based on the center channel design. Thanks again.

Here from HTE! Great video with excellent info! I love hearing the technical info rather than just opinions. New subscriber here! Keep up the great work!

@ErinsAudioCorner

2 жыл бұрын

Awesome! Thanks for joining!

OMG - I am so glad that I happened on this video! I have been frustrated for a long time with the poor sound out of my setup and it turned out that my 2-way MTM center channel was a major part of the problem. (The other was that apparently I had a power surge or something that confused my receiver. I did a factory reset and that fixed a lot.) I fund a deal on a prior year Klipsch center channel and once installed the difference was night and day. Thank you so much!

I use the SVS ULTRA Center Channel speaker in my main HT and it's Fantastic just like this Channel!!! Amazing Work, Thank you!

You mentioned Kef q650c, I am happy. My home theater consists of Kef speakers. And I love that coaxial design.

Good video! I used to have my Polk Center Channel speaker below my TV. I could barely hear it unless I turned it up. I moved it about 8-10 inches above my TV (85"), slightly tilted toward my main seating area and it sounds perfect!

Erin this was a fantastic video! Thank you for taking so much time to hash this out. You did an amazing job with this video!

@ErinsAudioCorner

2 жыл бұрын

Dude! Thanks for the awesomely kind words!

Thank you Erin. I was about to purchase a RP-504C II and then saw your reviews and tests. I bought a Monolith THX-365C instead. I am very happy with the 365C. Now I can hear dialogs clearly.

Very didactic! Full of logic and precise analysis. One of the best videos about audio I have watched. Congratulations!

@ErinsAudioCorner

2 жыл бұрын

😎 😊

Very thorough and helpful presentation about a little understood topics: both center speakers and the importance of off-axis response.

Dude wow, I wish I'd seen a breakdown like this 15 years ago! I was thinking about getting a new center speaker soon as I can and this really helps.

Great video! I really appreciate the visual demonstrations with the waves and F/R shifts. I used to think the sound-field would just be more narrow, instead of it being so chopped up. Would have been interesting to see the difference with a two-way arranged in a horizontal configuration. I have build a DIY-cabinet using the same drivers, crossovers, internal volume and port as my main left and right speakers. But because of the space limitations between the floor and screen, I could only fit the woofer and tweeter horn side by side. I experience quite a difference in the tonality between the center and L-R speaker. It’s probably a combination of the orientation and placement so close to the floor. I guess active processing could help out a bit.

@ericalbert4030

2 жыл бұрын

Roger, if you can I would at least angle the center speaker up towards your ears. Get it so the tweeter is aimed at you ears when your sitting down to watch it. It would be more money, but when you can it seems like you need a new tv / media stand. If the TV is on the stand, consider a wall mount for the TV, that way you can have your center speaker horizontal instead of vertical. Unless you have a transparent audio screen and a projector. These are just general guidance tips. You may even know this. Just trying to help you out as all. Getting the center speaker higher and aimed right should make a huge difference for you. Good luck.

Erin, you have a robot that measures sound output in 3D...don't act like making slides is the part that makes you a nerd. Absolutely loved this video man! Obviously I am a massive nerd.

@ErinsAudioCorner

2 жыл бұрын

That got me. I actually LOL'd. 😂

This is by far the best Video I have ever seen on this topic Excellent explanation

Awesome video, so informative! It's cool that you put out this video because about two weeks ago I decided to position my center channel vertically to see if it would help with dispersion across my seating area. I have an MTM center with a ribbon tweeter instead of a bookshelf because I bought it well before I knew much about home audio. Standing it up vertically made it sound twice as clear and the center image sounds much wider as well. Good to know that there's data that backs this up and that it's not just a placebo effect. Love your content man, keep up the good work!

@ErinsAudioCorner

2 жыл бұрын

Kickass. 👍

Thank you Erin, this is great to seeing someone who is using scientific data to help better understand and select good speakers! In addition your presentation style is very humble and honest, which is very unusual in this hobby where most reviewers think they know the truth and are preaching. For those of us who like to listen to multichannel music the 3 front speakers need to be identical! That will work best both for music and movies!

@ErinsAudioCorner

2 жыл бұрын

Too kind, too kind.

@ahambhramasmii

4 ай бұрын

Hi What's your thoughts about Dali spektor 2 ​@@ErinsAudioCorner

@ahambhramasmii

4 ай бұрын

​@@ErinsAudioCorner Confused between elac debut 2 b6.2 , dali spektor 2, jamo c93ii, q acoustic Please help me

Great content. Over 15 years ago I invested in Definitive Technology ( Sandy Gross era ) picked up BP7001, BP7002 & BP7006 Tower Speakers along with 3x CLR 2002 Centers and Studio Monitors 450 pair & 350 pair. Yes I spent a grip but they are still kicking ASS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I've had my paradigm cc190 for well over a decade now, not really knowing much about speakers at the time of purchase, and I am still happy with it! Clear, crisp vocals, good lows and mids. Perfect for my needs. Sometimes less is more

This is a great channel! I only caught sight of you folks in recent times, but it’s now among my favourite channels..

I rarely comment this, if ever. But this is easily one of the best videos on all of KZread. Reminds me of what KZread videos used to be all about.

Nice work! I've fallen kind of meh on center channel speakers of late. One of the best things I did in my space now is having moved the front LCR in my theater behind an AT screen (using the Focal 1000 in-walls) and so have identical "tower" style in-walls and all in the same vertical orientation. Much better than a horizontal center under a large/tall screen. In my living room, I'm 100% happy with it being a 2.2 setup and a phantom center. Phantom works excellently in there.

@caliginousmoira8565

2 жыл бұрын

i was thinking of using some polk monitor 40's for a center channel...

@Techthusiasm

2 жыл бұрын

@P T Yeah, room correction can clean that up. They also recommend EQ'ing your speakers all the way to 20k when behind an AT screen, which I do in my Anthem.

Thanks a lot Erin. Extremely well explained for a layman like me without involving too many technicalities.

@ErinsAudioCorner

2 жыл бұрын

You're very welcome!

This is an excellent video! I’ve been torn on what to do with my front sound stage with regards to upgrading after moving to a bigger room. This definitely helps! Thank you

That is an awesome microphone test setup you used there to make those 360 degree sound plot graphs! I wish I had something just like that at my house or in my workshop, because if I did I would use it on every speaker I test, design, or improve, but I suppose that robotic test setup isn't very cheap, to say the least! Great video man, this was the first video of yours I've ever seen, but I subscribed for more.

@ErinsAudioCorner

2 жыл бұрын

Glad you liked it!

Very informative stuff, Erin. I switched last year to 3 identical speakers for LCR (3 x Arendal 1723 Monitor S) and am so much happier with the results compared with my previous setup of towers and matching MTM centre channel. I’m now subscribed - keep up the good work. :-)

@milehighboost5521

Жыл бұрын

Just came to the same conclusion for my own setup. Now i just have to find that one extra speaker to match my two fronts.

@rob21

9 ай бұрын

Do you lay the Arendal on its side ?

You've really outdone yourself with this video. This is your best yet.

@ErinsAudioCorner

2 жыл бұрын

Thank you!

Found this video about 8 months ago. It lead me to learning that a speaker brand called "Revel" even existed. I found a great deal on C208... I have never in my entire life heard such clear dialog as I do now. It is a 3-way speaker. Just wanted to say THANK YOU!

This is why I always use a tower as center (when I am not going for phantomcenter which works very well in my room). I do not think my screen is acoustically transparent (don't know), but I have built rack and have my center tower upside down on it, so the tweeter and midrange is under the screen. Left and right tower is upside down on each their sub (same height as center). My last tower is rear surround (centered single rear surround), upside down on my third sub. I do play all towers full range, combined with subs, and I feel this works very well, giving many sources of bass, both at floorlevel and about middle height of the room. Really even full sound with only one slight dip at about 90 hz (room mode I can not kill🤪). Thanks for an informative video. Will send it to my mates so they can see I am not nuts when I tell them that normal centers are not optimal🤪

Man you nailed it. I hope some day you get the subscribers you deserve considering how good your work is. Your examples are a photograph of my dilemma , I have the svs prime center and bookshelves as frontstage and I was considering to replace them with 3 arendal 1961 bookshelves .Good idea or not? :P

@tvolkman88

2 жыл бұрын

Sounds like a great idea. Since they don't have high sensitivity you may want to sit closer to them though

Thank you for all the disclaimers. As someone new that really helped me grasp what you were trying to say. 🙏🏾

Outstanding presentation, and explains so much. Always wondered 'what the hell is wrong with the center channel' and kept getting bigger and bigger speakers.

Excellent video! Questions: Would placing an MTM center in a vertical position solve the issue of problematic horizontal dispersion? How does a large tweeter waveguide affect the MTM dispersion? One thing I would add is that some people might want to consider using a center channel and using upmixing for stereo content due to the 2khz interaural crosstalk cancellation that occurs when using only two speakers. A center channel fixes that issue. Dr. Toole talks about this in his book. Good to hear the binaural demo with the Sonic Presence mics. It helps to get an idea of the differences your measurements show.

@homeboi808

2 жыл бұрын

An MTM center placed upright will have much better horizontal dispersion, but now the vertical is narrow, because the drivers are still far apart in the plane, it’s not the same as a bookshelf/tower, so another reason to go true LCR for an AT projection.

@joentell

2 жыл бұрын

@@homeboi808 My thought is you're much more likely to be within the optimal vertical window if placed that way. Unless you're expecting some people to stand or sit, or if you have multiple rows of seating, it seems like vertical is more advantageous than having it horizontal.

@homeboi808

2 жыл бұрын

@@joentell true, but you still have the vertical reflections from the ceiling/floor being narrow/point, so to some degree the tonality/soundstage won’t be affected.

@Echo-jg8is

2 жыл бұрын

@@homeboi808 I'm curious to know why so many people choice a compromised multi seat option over a one hot seat design ? It's not like our family and friends are going to say " you have a dip at 50htz, I'm not impressed " or some crap like that... They will be amazed anyways, or is this hobby multifaceted ? Also curious to know why 99% of people use different speakers everywhere in the first place? Worst thing you can do, yet all but a few do it... Curiouser and curiouser...

@ErinsAudioCorner

2 жыл бұрын

yea, man! Most MTM designes are much better vertically oriented.

Biggest problem I had when setting up my system was reflections, and speaker placement. After installing a bunch of foam dampening on the walls and ceiling, and multiple hours of moving speakers around, forward, back, side to side and at different heights, it was like a miracle how the knolls went away.

@tlalotoani

Жыл бұрын

FOAM does barely anything for room acoustics

Great vid, Its very informative and very well explained, lots of work put in that video, well done !

Great video! The center speaker I'm currently building has the unfortunate characteristic of having a horizontal MTM arrangement but as it is a vertical CBT line array it was hard to come up with a way around it other than to find a full range driver to build the line with. My old theater used a horizontal CBT array with a large quantity of small drivers starting at just a few hundred Hz, fifty 2" drivers and one hundred thirty two 1/2" drivers along with twenty 6" drivers for mid-bass. It was designed to have a dispersion of +/- 45 deg and drop off uniformly beyond that. It worked very well! The original plan for the new theater was to do something similar but I decided to try a truncated version of the main CBT lines primarily because it's just a lot simpler. For it I'm using ten Dayton AMT-Pro4 Air Motion Transformers and forty Dayton Reference 5" mid-bass drivers. If it doesn't work out well I might go back to a horizontal CBT or possibly find a full range driver I can make work far enough into the top end to avoid the need to be a 2-way. The low end capability is less critical since below a couple hundred Hz or so I could sum back into the mains... phantom mode below 200 Hz. Your simulation has me thinking I might end up doing something like this in the end. I'll probably always be building something different just to try anyway. Thanks for posting this fantastic video!

Awesome video Erin. Very well done. A lot of good information here. It was nice to see a bookshelf being tested as well. I was impressed with the SVS Prime center speaker doing so well. It is a speaker I am considering for a center replacement. The other one I am looking at is the HC-1 MK2 Horn Center Channel from HSU Research. I would love you to review this speaker. I would like to see it's off axis response along with a full review. It's a speaker that has been out for awhile but doesn't have current reviews. There are links to magazine reviews when it was released. I am sure you would want to read them after you did your own testing. Or maybe you can get a review direct from HSU Research. If so please test their bookshelf HB-1 MK2 Horn Bookshelf Speaker. Maybe there is a viewer / Pateron that has one who will let you borrow one for testing. Here's hoping. Thanks for all you great work. 😀. Keep it up.

@ErinsAudioCorner

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks. I would recommend you reach out to HSU and ask if they'd be willing to send me some for review. I tried in the past with a subwoofer request but didn't get a reply.

I went with a bookshelf version of my mains (Revel) for my center channel. Sounds better than any other traditional center channel I've tried.

@rf0022

2 жыл бұрын

That is what exactly I did too. I really would have liked to go with a Revel c426 a little too big and costly. I used the revel bookshelf for the centre to go with the left and right towers.

@2JJays

2 жыл бұрын

@@rf0022 I about s*** my pants when I googled that speaker lol My most costly speaker is my SVS PB16 Ultra. But That center is 5k.. crazy.

Great video, I started out with a Jamo Center 160 back in the day. Now I have the B&W HTM71 S2. I am so happy with the sound from the B&W.

This is the best center channel explanation out there! Well done Erin!

@ErinsAudioCorner

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks!

I started out with a KEF HTIB set, dialogue was terrible. I then tried multiple other centers from Polk, Klipsch and finally landed on SVS Prime center and was FINALLY able to hear clearly. It made me upgrade to their Ultra Center and it was even better for overall linearity (from my uMik readings at least). This video would have saved me lots of cash and time. Awesome job.

@ErinsAudioCorner

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks!

I wish I would have pulled the trigger on the Monoprice THX center I was going to send you.

It's easy to listen to someone who is upfront, humble and honest. Keep up the good work. Would a byampable coaxial be a good solution for a center in home?

Glad I came across this video. I actually just purchased the SVS prime center with the pinnacle towers as an upgrade. My old center channel is a 2 way and I always thought that dialog clarity and such was definitely different depending on seating position. It just sounded kind of muffled at certain angles and i couldnt put my finger on why. Now I'm looking forward even more to the upgrade! Theyll be here Thursday. Cant wait.

@moniack

Жыл бұрын

My wife, who tolerates the home theater, commented the first time she heard the Prime center how much better dialogue was.

I’ve been waiting for a video like this for EVER. This is the kind of content that should be coming out from Audioholics, but it’s never materialized! And I mean that with great respect towards you Erin. You’ve put in a lot of work and time into this video and others. I own/use an Klipsch RP-504c (2.5 way) behind an AT screen. Sitting 10ft away. Your data and presentation help me hugely in understanding how my speaker may be radiating laterally…since Klipsch is a 💩 and won’t release their speaker’s data.

@ErinsAudioCorner

2 жыл бұрын

Well, thank you very much for that. Means a lot.

Erin, this was excellent. If there's any way you could measure Arendal's 1961 Center, please do. Also, what would be the crossover point/driver distance relationship we should be looking for that would indicate less potential error?

@ErinsAudioCorner

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks! I'll mention it to them and see what I can do. I still have to make my videos for the other speakers of theirs I have on hand.

Good stuff man, nice to see it laid out in front of you to see the differences

Excellent, excellent video. I think the most important subject you broached is that each person needs to assess the specific needs for their individual room. As you clearly note linearity is equally as important as dispersion for a center speaker. I often wonder why (and perhaps you could address this in a future video?) people don't just grab another TM bookshelf and turn it on its side and use it as a center if they are space/height limited? it doesn't work in all instances but the work you and others have done provides a wealth of knowledge as what will and won't work. a KEF Q350 would make a fantastic center on its side but similarly traditional speakers like an Elac DBR62 appears to have sufficient vertical dispersion (approx. ±25 degrees) to be used on its side and cover that horizontally. of course the big issue is trying to get either of those as a single speaker!

I have LS50s for my LCR driven with 3 CH amp specifically so I'd avoid the issues of centers sounding different. I fully admit I didn't put nearly as much thought into it as you did, was more of a gut feeling that it would be best if they were all the same. Having watched your video, I now feel like I made the right choice, especially with the LS50 being a single co-axial speaker

@ErinsAudioCorner

2 жыл бұрын

Yea, you made a good choice. :)

@ronnzi

2 жыл бұрын

How big is your room, and what crossovers do you use? Reason I ask is I was thinking of trying to run 3 LS50 Meta’s as my LCRs, but I’ve heard concerns of them not being loud enough, and particularly having issues at anything around 100hz and below at typical home theater volumes (75db and up). Curious what your thoughts are on this - if this isn’t a real concern, these sound like an AMAZING option. The LS50 Meta is only around 11 inches tall, so it would be easy to fit in the same spot as a center for me, it wouldn’t have the trade offs of the typical MTM design, and it would be an exact match to the L and R!

The elephant in the room is dedicated center channel speakers themselves, with their varied form factors. Three identical LCRs and don't look back, imo. There's so many adequately performing two-ways that it truly makes little sense to pursue dedicated, horizontal, form factors. Don't get me wrong, Erin this is solid work and likely quite helpful and educational to many. My primary rig is a big system that functions as audio lab experiments, projects, etc. My wife is quite understanding and as empty nest'ers I've gone deep on several in room experiments... long term and short term. Even with a direct view 85" display, my big 3-way LCRs work great... even with the center operating horizontally. Big challenge being diffracted/reflected energy of the 85" display... of which I discovered a simple, effective workaround. Also, it's worth noting side-by-side mids can actually be beneficial. There's a handful of examples out there, one that comes to mind was borne from the SEOS experiments... whereby to maintain tight center-to-center distances from HF driver to Mid (optimal vertical coverage), a pair of smaller diameter Mids flanking each other achieves the tight c-t-c, and a by product is great pattern control horizontally ... BELOW the range of the SEOS.

@ErinsAudioCorner

2 жыл бұрын

Understood. Some of those are points that I would have liked to talk about but... time. Thanks for the support!

Glad to have you here, such a great contribution to the hifi community, thank you Erin

@ErinsAudioCorner

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks. 😎

Great article. In our case we sit much wider but must say thanks to my awesome B&W always has great clarity and sound for the past 16 years. Even being a 2.5 way it has a wide dispersion and nice full sound with its 6.5” woofers. To be honest never thought there was an issue with center channels. Learned something new, thank you!

I think KEF really does make some of the best center channels, particularly in their old IQ series or their current R or their Reference series. the ideal is to have the same driver composition as your towers, but with more width. While the iQ60 aren't properly identical to the iQ90, they are at least a proper 3-way configuration utilizing the beloved Uni-Q driver with it's delightfully wide dispersion. the old Reference 204/2c are my favorite overkill center channel to point to because it's massive and intended to directly match the performance of the Reference 205/2. beautiful center channel that actually ends up being larger than the towers they're meant to complement.

@davidwald2938

Жыл бұрын

I have r300s with matching center channel and small 1980 vintage uni Q floorstanders for surrounds and SACD or Blue Ray surround music is amazing! I kept reading how much better 2-channel was with a dac and class AB amp vs. any AVR. Well, I bought a new 2 channel rig with wharedales, AS220, turntable with ortaphon black. I was mildly happy with it but still felt nothing was better than DSD through my old AVR through the Kefs. Then I tried moving the tube dac and streamer to the KEFs and was floored with the improvement in sound quality and soundstage. Kef scale like a mofo and are super hifi compared to Wharefedale lintons everyone is so enamored with these days. I still like the Lintons but am a little bored after only a few months where as the KEFs continue to impress with shock and awe even 7 years into them simply by adding tubes into the mix.

@mndlessdrwer

Жыл бұрын

@@davidwald2938 Absolutely. KEF speakers are one of the few brands I've found that really can scale with better amplifiers and DACs. On top of that, even their older stuff sounds great. Honestly, even if I had an unlimited budget, I'm not sure I'd drop it on their latest consumer products. I'd probably just get a full set of Reference 205/2 instead. But that's also kinda my fault for having this predisposition to loathe when manufacturers try to lie about the number of active drivers on their towers by using passive radiators that mimic the powered woofers. I also just prefer how they tuned the treble in their older stuff to be slightly depressed compared to their newer stuff. I've heard their Q750, the Q350, Q150, R3, LS50 Meta, LS60 and my own iQ90 and I think the LS60 are the closest to my preference, which is the iQ90. Funny how you have to spend $7k for a set of towers to sound like a set that's almost a decade and a half old. I'll give them credit, though: if you have a modern minimalist house and you want an eminently attractive set of towers for a listening room then the LS60 are certainly about as good as you can get, but that's placing aesthetics pretty high on your list of considerations for speakers. They certainly don't sound bad, and even compared to some other towers from Sonus Faber and Revel they hold up extremely well at that price point, but they sound about the same as my iQ90 on an Onkyo receiver from 2015. And the problem that the LS60 has is that they've decoupled the speaker from the source chain so you can no longer experience how it would scale with improvements in amps and DACs. Personally, I'd recommend trying to find either a set of Q11, iQ9, or iQ90 on the secondary market and then throwing all of the extra money you saved into an epic integrated amplifier or a set of monoblocks with a DAC or sound processor. Their newest Uni-Q drivers have made some improvements with their tangerine wedge diffusers, but they're pretty marginal overall and you'd get better results by just improving how you feed them.

@gregoryporco1181

4 ай бұрын

+1 here on the UNI-Q drivers for center channel performance. Have an old set of IQ's in my theater room and to me I struggle to replace them with anything newer as the soundstage and imaging could not be better. The UNIQ drivers are true audio engineering marvels and under appreciated.

Thanks for this, Erin. This was a superb analysis and extremely informative. As it turns out, I myself use the Micca center speaker and was experiencing the same issues of dead zones off angle in the front soundfield. But the solution turned out to be surprisingly simple. I simply connected TWO of the Micca center speakers in serial to each other and placed them a few feet apart. And no, despite what purists would have you believe, I didn't have to change the resistance setting in my Denon 3600H AVR nor is my AVR in danger of blowing out. Remember, modern AVRs have automatic shutoff safety mechanisms if they can't handle anything. I probably wouldn't recommend this with an older AVR but I have absolutely no problem whatsoever on a modern one.

@demonreturns4336

Жыл бұрын

So basically (if I understand what you’re saying here is) You are running with 2 center channel speakers?

@bronstet

Жыл бұрын

@@demonreturns4336 That's correct, Demon. They are connected in serial to each other and the Center speaker output on my Denon 3600H 9.2 A/V receiver. They are currently placed 32 inches apart from each other which works for my living room. I find this provides enough space between them that the sound waves aren't colliding with each other and distorting as well as eliminating the off-angle dead zones. Please note that for this to work, your front left and right speakers also have to placed at the far left and right of the room where they are actually supposed to be so that there are no sound wave collisions there either. The major problem I find with most home theater setups is users place the left and right speakers right beside the TV itself which is far too close. At that distance, they act no different than center channel speakers themselves. At the very least, place them both just outside the total seating area I.e. the left and right side of your couch. Here's the easiest way to figure this out. Place your front left and front right speakers all the way to the furthest left and right corners of your front wall. Now place two serially connected center speakers in equidistance from the front left and front right speakers and each other in the middle of the front wall. Give it a listen in all seating positions available in your room and then move the speakers around to your liking until there are no dead zones you can discern from any seat.

Thank you,Sir! ... You've highlighted exactly what I like and don't like about center channels.

Excellent video. I’m glad I ended up using a bookshelf Elac UB-5 as my center. Not because I know what I’m doing but a pair of bookshelf speakers was cheaper than the matching center when I bought. Works great.

@ErinsAudioCorner

2 жыл бұрын

haha. Well, that worked out. :)

For those of us who listen to multichannel music, there's really no substitute for a matched set of full-range loudspeakers.

@joelopez7459

2 жыл бұрын

$$$$$$

@9hundred67

2 жыл бұрын

not many people listen to multichannel music because it's very rare and unnecessary. Stereo sounds much better and richer.

What a MASTERCLASS! Thanks for all you do Erin ❤

@ErinsAudioCorner

7 ай бұрын

Thanks for the kind words!

very helpful for my home theater planning. thank you for creating this

If there is no room for identical triplets at the front, a coaxial is always the right move for a center channel, like the Kef for example. Best off-axis (with a good crossover ofc.) with almost identical vertical and horizontal sound dispersion for most coherent center for many seats.

Very good point. I placed my B&W center vertical to try out and boom, much better horizontal spread. Wow... this is an eyeopener

I really enjoyed this video. Thanks for taking time to explain it well

@ErinsAudioCorner

2 жыл бұрын

Glad you enjoyed it!

Continue the good work... i was mesmerized of your work and details on what you do... thanks

Thanks, this was incredibly informative and really helped me with my purchase!

Fantastic video! Thank you so much for putting all this together.

@ErinsAudioCorner

2 жыл бұрын

👍

Wow wow wow🙏🙏 That was a real lesson on sound travel and speakers involved. This what I really needed to know!! Thank you.

Very nice way of explaining! Thanks. I build a 3 way with tweeter en mid above eachother for this very reason.

This was one of your best videos, great job!

@ErinsAudioCorner

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks!

Very informative video, thank you! I just purchased the Kef Q650c within the last month and I am very happy with it as part of my HT setup. It is a fairly large speaker, but fit where I needed it to, plus I liked that it "matched" the Q150's I use as my front heights.

@xxBlazinBobxx

Жыл бұрын

@@Jay37_tech A Yamaha AC40X (dual 5 1/4" woofers with 1" aluminum dome tweeter).

You went above and beyond for this Erin. Truly great stuff.

@ErinsAudioCorner

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks, Napier!

This is a really informative video. I especially appreciate the mention of trade-offs. There's always tradeoffs. I have a gigantic 3-way center with a horn tweeter in my home theater but in my living room, my only option was a very short center and had to go with the Polk XT35.

@tapetwo7115

9 ай бұрын

hey its been a year since you wrote this lol - im considering the Polk XT35. because I too have this thin (height) area to place my center speaker in my living room entertainment. I already have a theater with huge speaker but I like to have a nice basic 5.1 in my living room too.

@joker927

9 ай бұрын

@@tapetwo7115 I hope it works for you as well as it has for me. I still don't think a better center exists with such restrictive height requirements. I thought it was a tad soft until I switched from a Yamaha to a Denon with Audyssy XT32 and the center channel is a bit brighter now like I prefer it. Obviously that is the room correction and nothing to do with the speakers itself. Enjoy!

This video is a MASTERPIECE, i have no words but bravissimo ! You could easily write a book with all your knowledge now

@ErinsAudioCorner

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks, man!

FANTASTIC VIDEO!!! This should video should be played for everyone making a home theater! Best Wishes!

Excellent video! Thanks for all the hard work Erin!

@ErinsAudioCorner

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks for watching!

Thank you for a straight up, data-backed discussion on this specific topic. Once again, You Rock!

@ErinsAudioCorner

2 жыл бұрын

🤘

Nice methods and review ! Long life to Erin !

Great video! I designed and built my center channel speaker with an MTM horizontal driver placement, but with a minimum mid-mid separation of about six inches (the 5 1/4 inch speaker edges are about an inch separated) and the tweeter is tucked in just above. This greatly improves off-axis mid-range response while still giving me plenty of SPL for movies. I consider this a “true MTM” configuration compared to the current fad in commercial center channel speakers. Glad I found your channel!

@ErinsAudioCorner

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks for the reply. :)

@dkindig

11 ай бұрын

Actually not "true MTM", but just a variation on MTM, because the MTM design and the narrow gap between mid's is intentional to suppress vertical dispersion and works great for any speakers not laying on their side. I built the Audax HT system by Joe D'Appolito and the center channel is a three-way WTMW design so that horizontal dispersion isn't reduced. Essentially your design with the addition of a 3-way crossover and a dedicated midrange speaker (although my 6 1/2" woofers are a good 6-7" apart with the mid and tweeter arranged vertically between them). With only an inch between your mids I don't see how cancellation is not taking place...

Wow - thanks for doing all this work! A great explanation of center channels 👍👍

@ErinsAudioCorner

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks!

Awesome video. Really educational and helpful. All thumbs up for the effort.

Great video! Especially since I run the Prime Center, and seeing the info on that confirms a lot of what I hear in my room.

@ErinsAudioCorner

2 жыл бұрын

I appreciate the reply. :)

Bravo!!! Thank you for your CAREFUL and exacting work. I really appreciate it.

@ErinsAudioCorner

2 жыл бұрын

Thank you! And thank you for the support!

Glad i found and listened to this video. It further reinforces my thought process of moving towards an lcr setup. Now i just have to find one more speaker to match my fronts as they are usually only sold in pairs. Probably just buy a pair and store the extra speaker or sell it for anyone else looking to do the same.

Quite an "ear opening" video for me. It proves that either coaxial drivers , or the SVS driver arrangement were the two best in area coverage. I have a set of Elac DB6 2.0's and the matching MTM center. I also have a used Paradigm Sig C1 center, which is a 3 way with similar driver configuration as the SVS, so I decided to try it out yesterday, swapped it in for the Elac center, did the speaker calibration on my SR6010, and came away impressed. It made a very noticeable difference in area coverage, with better dialog intelligibility to boot. I think you are onto something here lol. Many thanks!

Thanks Erin, great info. My first thought is to go with a full range driver center channel although I don't see that offered as a solution in most speaker families. The tradeoff of a somewhat limited frequency range does not seem to me like as big a problem since dialog is in the 300 to 3K Hz range and a subwoofer will fill in the bottom range?