I really appreciate that you took the time to explain the 'meta' behind the move. It's a reasonable explanation as well as a good follow-up video.

@DiploStrats

10 ай бұрын

Thank you for asking the question! Not often I get the motivation to make smaller videos than this, it was great to get that kick!

I love this topic had it's own video! The next level from this is moving Smyrna to Syria 😂

@DiploStrats

10 ай бұрын

I actually debated talking about that but I figured it was niche enough that I shouldn't make the video longer with it :D

@wow-roblox8370

3 ай бұрын

@@DiploStratswell you could make it into its own video, but it might come in a bit short, so you could mention other nice openings for countries

@Einheit091

2 ай бұрын

I have actually seen this once i an interestibg game, that was won by Austria. About 10 years ago

@tarquinioprisco8459

2 ай бұрын

​@@DiploStratsshort videos tend to be picked up by the algorithm so if you make a 3-4 minute video continuation of this video you may probably get more people to find this video too

This video was quite quickly thrown together, and so I've had a couple thoughts since of things I missed which I'll answer in this comment: What about Bulgaria? Can't you lose that if you use two Fleets on the south? - Yes, you can (if you push for Aeg/Eas with the fleets). However, it's a guess - you could still support hold it, so Gre has to decide what to support - and even if you do lose it, having two southern fleets + an army retreated to Con makes the rest of your centers incredibly secure. Assuming Russia doesn't turn on you, the only way your line is breaking is if AI get fleets in all of Bul/Gre/Ion, which is extremely difficult to do. Whereas if you have a single southern fleet, you can be pushed back by just Gre+Ion, and your homeland is under much greater threat. If you end up on the defensive as Turkey, fleets are far better for you than armies! Why is a 5-center Turkey after 1901 so powerful? - I overstated it in the video (it's not set up to take over the rest of the board just from that) but Turkey has a huge upside - being a very defensive corner power - with a huge downside, being unable to mobilise units and move forward quickly. If Turkey manages to get two armies out into the Balkans, it often negates that downside, since they can use the builds to put fleets down to help them advance *and* they can use those Balkan units to push and build a corridor their armies can leave their homeland through.

I really like this focused mini video on a single topic like this!

The real downside of this opening is, paradoxically, just how good it is. Since discovering this opening, I find myself wondering why on earth would I ever open to Con ever again, so sometimes I force myself to open Smy-Con just to try the "suboptimal" move on purpose and hope there is no AI. Another downside (not for turkey) is that after this opening became the new meta, italy, a country a lot of new players struggle to play, has become even more difficult to play, unless of course you fight Austria, which in turn is even more likely to get ganged up on. It's a mess haha

@DiploStrats

10 ай бұрын

I'm a bit of a hypocrite because I open Smy-Con far more often than I do this, mainly because I prefer aggressive strategies. It has on occasion worked out for me and it never would have if I didn't go to Con - as a top player it's easy to assume 'I'll never get the +2' and play accordingly, but you can sometimes get it if you're willing to play risky. The downside to playing Smy-Ank all the time is that you give up that possibility completely. But if you're going for consistency, yes, it feels like it's always the best move. And I definitely agree that Italy has gotten harder to play of late because of it!

@gabrielesalera7088

2 ай бұрын

I mean, kinda on the other hand Italy can force its way to Triest while still maintaining decent relationships with Austria because if Austria falls back on taking back Triest they have basically lost the game, while if Italy takes Triest but helps them getting a hold of the Balkans they can still win it, simply because at this stage if Austria falls Italy is next to go like, Italy could and honestly should aim to force a Tunis - Triest - Greece centers for them and Austria having Serbia, Bulgaria, Romania and Con, so they are each of them on +3, and it's basically an offer Austria can't refuse less they want to be partitioned away by them + Russia and Turkey, which both of them have more to gain from partitioning Austria rather than being allied to them anyways, the cool thing about this position and agreement is that Austria is almost forced into this and if they follow through they're gonna get the focus of both Russia and Germany so yeah I feel the main problem about Italy is that they don't leverage enough the fact their strategic position and the fact that if someone else gets all the Italian centers they've probably already won the game, so it's a good nuclear option too

Good video. In my opinion, Smy-Con is simply a horrendous move barring a specific context. In gunboat, I would just consider it to be an outright blunder, leaving Turkey essentially helpless against a well played Lepanto. In an ideal meta, Ank-Con and Smy-Arm would be the main line, but I understand that within most communities, that situation is not going to occur anytime soon. So Ank-Bla, Smy H (or Smy-Ank) is the next best thing

@DiploStrats

10 ай бұрын

I think in entry-level gunboat, Con can be fine, because things like the Hedgehog opening are more common there so you're more likely to get Gre. But yes, outside of that I'd agree completely that it's not a good opening. Ank-Con is an interesting one; I think it's a very strong move (especially with trying to make Russia bounce in Arm) but I suspect any opening that doesn't go to Black Sea would never be the meta. If it did become one, I *think* AIRvT becomes more prevalent because Russia being able to stab for Bla in S01 makes that alliance far better for R.

@HighlyCruciferous

10 ай бұрын

@DiploStrats For about 10-15 years, strong Lepantos were the prevalent meta in the French online gunboat scene (a niche yes, but actually quite a sizable and active community). Ank-Con, Smy-Arm was thus the norm, with a bounce in the Egean occuring in the majority of games. Assuming Russia opened Sev-Bla, his objectively best move in the fall was to return with Bla-Sev since Arm-Sev, although rarely played, remained too big a threat to ignore and there was just no upside to Bla-Ank, which would either bounce with Arm-Ank or result in an unhappy exchange of Sev for Ank. Bla H or Bla S Ukr-Sev was also not to be recommended in this context as Turkey would either play Bul S Ukr-Rum or Bul-Gre (forcing Ser S Alb-Gre, with the result that Ukr-Rum would go unhindered). If despite all this Russia stubornly remained in the Black Sea at the end of 1901, Turkey would abandon the defense to the Lepanto and concentrate on removing the invasive fleet, with very bad results for both sides. Bla-Sev f01 was thus played almost universaly. Another interesting line that would occur was Sev-Arm in spring 1901, played with the goal of bouncing with Smy-Arm and creating a sound and flexible position for both countries in the fall. If you are interested, I can send you a link to a series of videos where I cover this meta in detail along with one of the strongest players from this community. It is in French however.

@HighlyCruciferous

10 ай бұрын

I should add that a big part of the reason why this works for Turkey in gunboat is that Russia cannot orchestrate a stab on Turkey to coïncide with an italian stab on Austria and thus does best to refrain from it in the early stages of the game. I think it's far more perilous for Turkey in a press game where as you mention AIR is also a threat.

@oOShaoOo

9 ай бұрын

​​@@HighlyCruciferoustu ne serais pas proudhon par hasard ?( Sur diplomatie online)

@HighlyCruciferous

9 ай бұрын

@@oOShaoOo Hello Shao, oui, c'est moi, comment vas tu ? ça fait tres longtemps, tu joues toujours ?

If you're looking for inspiration for more short videos: could you cover some of the new moves CICERO has discovered to be surprisingly strong? :D

@DiploStrats

10 ай бұрын

I do want to do more about CICERO, but it's a bit difficult on that front - CICERO didn't really discover new moves, outside of playing more aggressively in general than you would expect a top level human to. It played more or less how you would expect an expert human to, but a bit more forgiving - the innovation was moreso that it was able to do that at all!

@TheThinKing23

10 ай бұрын

@@DiploStrats so I haven’t played a ton of games, but I had never seen England play NTH-SKA before CICERO… that’s the kind of move I’m thinking of. If there’s a rare (not new) variant that gets a lot more play by CICERO, that’s a good video candidate IMO!

As a novice, listening to this, first move fleet to Const, and Smyrna army to Ankara seem best. Yes, you lose black fleet but you are very strongly positioned for the south. If you build fleet in Smyrna, safeguard against Russia with Ankara army and move fleet in const to Aegean, well?

I was going to ask what does Turkey do if Sev moves Rum and A-R attack Bul but Black Sea can just support hold Bul I suppose if you get in.

@KillMePlease680

10 ай бұрын

Or Turkey could convoy into Sev.

@DiploStrats

10 ай бұрын

Ideally, your early negotiations should stop that from happening! But if it does, yes, you'd want to support hold Bul with Bla, move Ank to Arm, and build in Con. Getting the Italian onside from there would be pretty vital but if you can, then you're actually in a fine position (since you have so much pressure on Rum/Sev).

Do nc and sc stand for north sea and south sea?

@DiploStrats

2 ай бұрын

North Coast and South Coast - in Diplomacy can only move into a province adjacent to the specific coast it's on, so for a few provinces where the coast is cut in two (StP, Bul, Spa) the individual coasts have to be specified.

Do you think this is worth doing in an average press game on Backstabbr? Or is it better being reserved for more expert games? Maybe a less experienced player would just think that you were being stupid staying in Smyrna 😂

@DiploStrats

10 ай бұрын

IMO, there's no real downside to doing it unless you would otherwise get the second army out into Bulgaria - even if you end up not wanting to move the Ankara fleet out, you can still move the army up to Con in the fall and the situation is identical to if you'd moved it there in the spring, then held. I'd say if you hear that Austria is playing the hedgehog, or Italy is attacking Austria, or any other circumstance that makes it likely you can go to 5 in 01 - go to Con. That's more likely in an average press game on Backstabbr than in an expert game, but I'd say there'll be plenty of times where it's not the case and Smy H or Smy-Ank will be your best option!

@JamesHatfield49

10 ай бұрын

@@DiploStrats many thanks! Always looking forward to your videos.

I saw previously your cecero ai video, how can i play with the bot?

Do you guys have something in the pipeline?

@DiploStrats

7 ай бұрын

Kind of! We have three projects that are in various stages of ready to go and just need a bit more work and/or joint availability. Unfortunately I'm going through a very busy time at the moment so they probably won't be up for a while.

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