As a toolmaker for 45 years I mostly used the cheap ones for common everyday use but for close tolerance the Mitutoyo have a better railways, which wear better. But calipers where for .002” tolerance or more. Micrometers were always for under .002”. It all depends on pressure, which calipers do not have unless they are special order, spring loaded inspection calipers. When I started out there were only veneer types, which required proper pressure. Also, temperature can effect the accuracy. SS expands and contracts with temperature.

@rafaelallenblock

Жыл бұрын

That's what I always thought: If you truly want precision you use micrometers. Callipers have an extra digit that I figure you just ignore generally.

@MichaelKingsfordGray

Жыл бұрын

"veneer" types? Surely you meant "vernier"?

I always measure with calipers, mark with chalk, and then cut with a hatchet and things always come out fine.

@pierresgarage2687

7 жыл бұрын

Hi, There are days like that where I sharpen the hatchet too.... lol Thanks for comment, Pierre

@albennett9947

6 жыл бұрын

ctbram0627 n

@codemiesterbeats

5 жыл бұрын

lmfao reminds me of the time I made a turbo down pipe from a piece of pipe cut at (a very eye balled) 45 degree angle put together to make a 90 degree bend. I welded the pipe together... to a turbo flange ... to a modified piece of water-pipe to the wastegate flange (water pipe was just the wastegate passageway) I done all of this without anything other than a tape measure at my community college while the car sat at my house. I got home and it all mounted up flawlessly lol mostly luck I suppose.

@hernandovillamarinbuenaven7476

5 жыл бұрын

Lol🤣😂

@OriginalAtomicSheep

4 жыл бұрын

I hope you measure 7 times and cut 1ce otherwise no matter how good the hatchet, the end result might suffer.

`I prefer to use a micrometer because if I make something 4 or 5 thou oversize, I just keep twisting the barrel until it reaches the right size. It saves a lot of machining time.

@pierresgarage2687

6 жыл бұрын

The calipers are precise enough for broad tolerances jobs or to get closer to the needed size, but, for final control, the micrometer is best... ;) Beware not to dammage your micrometer by using it as a "C" clamp... lol

@69mrnikolai

4 жыл бұрын

old guy i worked with actually did that

@mladenpavlekovic8768

4 жыл бұрын

@@69mrnikolai at least he squeezed it to the correct extent lol

@umarmuchtar6080

4 жыл бұрын

@@pierresgarage2687 rofl, so bad how to use that, man 😂

@jackfrost2146

3 жыл бұрын

@@umarmuchtar6080 That's true, sometimes I do get blisters on my fingers from doing that, so I use a g clamp to turn the barrel to the correct size.

Top quality is always nice if affordable but for sure, the ''cheapo'' ones for most part do come out fairly well. I have had to rely on some of those and unless tolerances super tight they do for me. A mic in the end is the most reliable, along with telescope gauges. Now you gotta grow that fungus again!;;

@pierresgarage2687

7 жыл бұрын

Right about the cheapos doing most of the hard work... !!! ;) It will grow don't worry, being lazy helps keep it alive... lol

Using my cheap calipers for more precise work and my mitutoyos for the dirty stuff. My harbor freight calipers are more accurate than my mitutoyos. Anything precise gets measured with micrometers. Thumbs up!

Back in the day on my engineering training I had a mitutoyo mechanical imp/metric vernier, some years later in the age of digital my nephew was an apprentice at a Kawasaki hydraulic motor factory, I gave him my old fashioned vernier, told him, any time you are stuck with a flat battery the old standby will serve you well. He is now in South Africa servicing those motors, first in the gold fields now offshore oil exploration. Nice to know that tool investment is still with him if he needs it.

@wontputrealname

7 жыл бұрын

+Russ Cattell I had a vernier caliper (Eclipse, it may have been until I lost it and replaced it with a Mitutoyo imp/metric instrument, probably the same as yours. In between times, I have owned 2 different makes of digital calipers although none of these were very expensive. They did not last long, the analogue Mitutoyo has outlived them both. I still use this, unlike other people I know who have bought expensive digital calipers which, while lasting longer than the digital calipers that I bought, still failed and were not worth fixing after just a few years. I'll stick with my old Mitutoyo, which at 40+ years old, is still a very useful tool.

@scientist100

4 жыл бұрын

@@wontputrealname I'd buy calipers every 2-3 years just because you know the jaws are consistent. You tend to get bumps over time and it is not flat especially if you measure metal parts.

A very well done review, thank you!. I lerned a couple o things.

@pierresgarage2687

7 жыл бұрын

Glad you got something from the video and thanks for comment, Pierre

Thanks for the demo. Like others have said, I keep the Mitutoyo for when it really matters. I have also noticed that the biggest differences come from using the thumb knob to roll the calipers tight. The cheaper versions seem to lack the rigidity, so the error seems to come from a "bowing" of the caliper. Using the tips of the calipers worsens this effect. When I seat the workpiece deep and grasp the calipers closed around my workpiece, I get more consistent results, and my cheap calipers stay usable for longer. Thanks again! I'll be perusing through more of your posts to see what other interesting tidbits you have!

@pierresgarage2687

7 жыл бұрын

Hi Allen, Making accurate and constant measurements even with the best instruments requires some practice and a feel for it... A great way to practice is to compare your readings with a known part and practice until you get constant readings. Right about using the part closer to the body on a caliper... Thanks for viewing and I hope you find some other videos you'll enjoy in the future, Pierre

"Good, not great" - just like like my caliper budget xD

Here's a thing you might not know about the cheap calipers. They have a port on them that is beneath a plastic cover, that gives outputs from their quadrature encoders. With some very basic wiring and know how, a cheap caliper can be used as a linear encoder, and they are surprisingly good at that duty. My 3d printer project uses three HFT calipers for its X, Y, and Z stages, and it is very precise and repeatable. Food for thought (especially given the price of a real linear encoder - heheh)

@pierresgarage2687

7 жыл бұрын

This is a great add-on to the discussion, those new insights could help someone in future applications for a reasonable cost.... Let's be creative...!!! Thanks for viewing and for comment, Pierre

@mrdavidurquhart

7 жыл бұрын

Kinkhorse Yes if they are the same as the linear scales, the communication will be per RS-422 aka TIA/EIA-422.

@jasonlee7484

7 жыл бұрын

@Kinkhorse: like a JTAG interface? I like it. great hack.

@KamFiction

7 жыл бұрын

the ones I had just spat out straight quadrature signals from the encoder pickups and it was merely a matter of figuring out how many CPI there were and counting em.

@jasonlee7484

7 жыл бұрын

K. Meinzer​: sweet. Thanks for the info

in aircraft engineering i had the tesa vernier caliper, and moore a wright micrometer. bought in the 1980's. and still as good today.

Best explanation! Great job men!

Brings back memories of when we had factories and real jobs. wiggle it a little bit. We called calipers “very nears“ for engineers they're worth their weight in gold.

@pierresgarage2687

3 жыл бұрын

All depends on 2 things, first, how precise you need to be, second and even more important, how repeatable and precise can the handler be..........!!!!! It's a mater of experience and feel...

Nice job on the compare.

@pierresgarage2687

7 жыл бұрын

Hello Randy, some people might be surprised with the results if they ever decide to test their tools... lol Cheers, Pierre

Excellent comparison. Thanks a lot

@pierresgarage2687

4 ай бұрын

Thanks a lot, you're welcome... 🙂🙂

I have a 15 USD Chinese digital caliper. I work with it for more then 7 years. It serve me good. For my kind of work I do not need a more precise one. But I really like to see quality tools at work. Thank you for the video.

@pierresgarage2687

5 жыл бұрын

There isn't a huge difference in precision from between a cheap and an expensive caliper, differences are more on overall finishing, solidity in certain obvious cases, battery life, repeatability and how a company backs up the products... But, on the last point, even Harbor Freignt or Canadian Tire will exchange a faulty product... BTW, my everyday all purpose, including crappy jobs, is a MasterCraft from Canadian Tire, paid about $12.99 on sale, and like the Bunny, is lasting and lasting for about near ten years... Thanks for your comment, Pierre

I agree with your final conclusion. I would like to notice that the cheaper one are much more battery hungry and a jaw movement speed can be an issue also.

@pierresgarage2687

3 жыл бұрын

Right about the batteries, sliding too fast will cause an error in many tools, for batteries, if you get SR-44 batteries instead of LR-44, they'll last longer but will cost you a little more...

If it's important that a dimension that has to be held within +/- 0.005" , a caliper, no matter who made it is not the tool to use. You can use a caliper if you need to measure closer than that if you do what was done in the video... zero the caliper to gage blocks set to the required and you can get to +/- 0.0005" . It is important to note that even the Mititoyo doesn't read to "tenths" of a thousands of an inch. It can be anywhere in the range of +/-0.00025 of the indicated dimension. Like others have noted, I have both Mititoyo and Harbor Freight mystery calipers. I stoned the sharp edges on the HF's when I got them and it smoothed them up considerably. The batteries last about 3 years of daily use.. I do turn them off every time I use them. The HF calipers are the ones I use all the time.

@pierresgarage2687

7 жыл бұрын

Agree with you, like mentioned many times by lots of people the accuracy of even the best of caliper isn't up to precision under at most +/- 0.001", and, even there best to proof the measure with something better... Thanks for the input, Pierre

@kennethcohagen9037

7 жыл бұрын

Aceroadholder I agree too. We always used a micrometer for anything that precise. Calipers were good for use at the parts counter when comparing parts, but not for machine work of any kind.

@Newit2

6 жыл бұрын

How to use a micrometer

thanks for the video. Very informative and helpful for my caliper research

@pierresgarage2687

4 жыл бұрын

Glad it was helpful! If you need more or updated info there is this updated video you can watch: kzread.info/dash/bejne/moWlqKOfgK_PlJM.html

Thanks for that Pierre, an honest appraisal of your callipers accuracy. Boy am I impressed with the Mitutoyo's

@pierresgarage2687

4 жыл бұрын

Same here, my first precision tools about 45 years ago were Mitutoyo, still got those and they still perform like as they were when purchased, impressive... They didn't have digital in those years, not that I remember, though, they had the combimike, the little mechanical dials on the side... Thanks for your comment, Pierre

Thanks man. I own one of the CDN TIre ones. So it confirms that for the "back yard mechanic" it's good enough!

@pierresgarage2687

7 жыл бұрын

I use that tool most of the time for non critical measures or to approach the critical ones that will be terminated with more precision tool, for the price it's a hard to beat toll... ;) Thanks for your input, Pierre

@hasbeengood

7 жыл бұрын

Like you say... bang for the buck can't go wrong.

1-2 ten thousanth of an inch on a vernier caliper, I'd live with that lol

@Megadeth6633

3 жыл бұрын

don't forget he applied pressure when zeroing which might actually correct the measurements..

thank you. very helpful comparison!

@pierresgarage2687

7 жыл бұрын

Hi Mike, Thanks for viewing and for comment, Pierre

hi Pierre, the tape holding the battery lid on the cheap calipers told me all i needed to know without having to turn in the tool. nice shootout video!

@pierresgarage2687

7 жыл бұрын

Hi, you're just right about the lesser quality tools, they cost less and give you a little less... lol But n many cases they do the job and if they get smashed its funny not painful... ;) Thanks for viewing and for comment, Pierre

Good to see the off brand is calibrated perfectly for what I need. Been using those for the last 10 years for all sorts of things like welding, reloading, cutting and random house measurements. That’s 100% with in tolerance of my uses at home. Looks like I’ll keep buying them haha

@pierresgarage2687

3 жыл бұрын

Wise thinking, to get the tool that will reliably do the job for a reasonnable cost. You get to know how you can trust the tool and use it accordingly.... 🌈👍

Gauge blocks are good if you have them but you can also compare the calipers directly by utilizing both outside and inside measuring arms. Half a thousandth is worth probably $40 to me. Also, a $15 dropped caliper often turns out to be more accurate than a dropped $150 caliper so you'll end up upside down then. You're micrometer is in perfect condition... all is good.

@pierresgarage2687

Жыл бұрын

As any experienced machinist already knows, a caliper is also called an "Aproxo-meter" for any really close tolerances work there is a need for a tool that can be at least 10 times more precise. Another primary factor is the experience of the operator in being able to achieve accurate and repeatable measures... As far as I'm concerned, a dropped and/or an uncalibrated tool is excluded from my tool chest, it's just a waste of time and material potential in the future.... 🙂😉

Recently got the iGaging EZ Cal very happy with it. Large display easy to read with consistent numbers.

Very good and quick comparison. I bought my first Mitutoyo 6 Inch x 0.1 Inch per revolution dial caliper in 1970 (and still have it) and a few years ago bought the Mitutoyo 6 Inch Absolute caliper and have been very pleased with their accuracy. Unfortunately the 6" dial caliper has an known error due to wear of 0.001" now between 0.540" and 0.580" but still good for everyday uses. Thanks for the review.

@pierresgarage2687

7 жыл бұрын

Got my fist Mitutoyo vernier am micrometer in the same era, still have them, they're in still in great shape though, but like agreed by most, the caliper is more a tool used to get closer to tight tolerances and then finish with something more precise or measure wide tolerances lots of times on length where the measures are often +/- 0.005" and plus. Thanks for comment, Pierre

I made my own calipers out of wood... They are accurate to the nearest quarter inch...live long and prosper ✌️

@pierresgarage2687

7 жыл бұрын

Hi everything is relative, depends what's to be done and how precise it needs to be... ;) Thanks for viewing and for comment, Pierre

@jeremywestern7067

7 жыл бұрын

+Pierre's Garage no-you are mistaken... The posters of this video use THOUSANDTHS of an inch... Please watch the video more closely in future

@pierresgarage2687

7 жыл бұрын

Sorry about some mistakes, when it's posted to KZread, to my knowledge it's impossible to change the content without redoing the whole process... And it happens despite the fact I watch it completely at least twice before uploading...

@rsoul7282

7 жыл бұрын

Pierre's Garage Jeremy western is a horrible troll who posts racism and adolescent nonsense, please don't feed him.

@grumpyoldfart7302

7 жыл бұрын

Use slide clamps, and mark the increments on the pipe with a sharpie.

I went to harbor freight and spent 20 minutes and 13 dollars US, to find a well made calipers with smooth action. The time and money was well spent.

Great comparison video.

I had similar results with an older (16yo +) pair from Harbor Freight (HF) vs Mitutoyo Absolute digital calipers... the HFones were either on, or off by 0.0005 or 0.001. as tested like you, with gage blocks, but I used non-whole number sizes. I did try the newer calipers that will also do fractions. but found they would not repeat 100%, while the Mitutoyo's do.

@pierresgarage2687

7 жыл бұрын

Hello John, the Mitutoyos will like you say, give more constant results, the accuracy and repeatability on the cheaper ones will depend if you got a good one or a less quality unit... As for measuring parts within the thousand of an inch, the resolution simply can't give an accurate number either the caliper is a quality unit or a cheap one, the result is unreliable in any case, the half thousand resolution doesn't mean much... Those tools have their place, it's to the machinist to determine how accurate the part has to be measured and act accordingly... Thanks for your input, Pierre

Thanks I'm buying the $12 ones

@pierresgarage2687

7 жыл бұрын

Hi, The chepaer one will surely be adequate if you're an occasionnal or a hobby user, those are great tools for a price if you can make sure that you get a decent unit to start with... ;) Thanks for viewing and for comment, Pierre

@RedPill-experience

7 жыл бұрын

with imperial system there is no differents.. Even with a wood meter all measurement are ok!

@giangtrungnguyen

5 жыл бұрын

It’s fine if you do your works by hand. Because our hands aren’t more accuracy than the $12 caliper. I think the Mitutoyo is suitable for CNC machine works

@insoft_uk

4 жыл бұрын

I use cheaper one and accurate enough for what I need, MTB for one thing all depends on the tolerance one needs like the video pointed out. Good video I was wondering how accurate the cheaper ones were that I had and now I know, they are fine for what I’m using them for I’m not working in a high tolerance so I can trust them

@IgorAndreevski

2 жыл бұрын

@glyn hodges yes, because using 1 kg or 1/2 liter is too much brains

I think my cheap one even says +/- 0.04 mm. Definitely more than good enough for home use.

@pierresgarage2687

3 жыл бұрын

You don't need to pay a fortune in order to get a decent caliper, even more so for home use...

Well done comparison. When I have to be right I use the regular old micrometer and for the rest the cheap calipers. I always drop the calipers and if they get damaged I don't feel too bad. Keep on keeping on.

@pierresgarage2687

7 жыл бұрын

Similar technique around here, except that not so bad on the dropping part, Pierre

Fifteen to twenty years ago I bought some NSK digital calipers for NZD200 (USD145 at todays rate). I loved them and treasured them, and they are still as new. More recently, I have been doing less engineering, and more woodworking... I noticed the number of people on KZread using throw-away cheap chinese calipers, so I bought some rather than use the NSK's. For this purpose THEY HAVE BEEN BRILLIANT! They far exceeded my expectations, with excellent repeatability. Your test with the gauge blocks is the true test of accuracy; for woodwork or checking bolt/screw sizes the cheapies are way more than accurate enough, at less than one tenth of the cost. A HUGE plus for the cheapies... if they time-out, they retain their current position when I turn them on again, and they turn on automatically when I move the slide. The NSK's turn always turn on at zero, regardless of the actual position. A really useful review, many thanks.

@pierresgarage2687

7 жыл бұрын

Hi John, For most applications thos cheaper tools are a good thing, it allows people on a budget to buy something tha will get the job done, even as a machinist I enjoy having a tool that won't make me cry if it gets hurted. If we agree that a caliperis a medium precise tool then we agree that most situations can be worked with a low budget... ;) Thanks for viewing and for comment, Pierre

The problem with my Harbor Freight digital caliper is repeatability. It doesn't always re-zero when opened and closed or moved around. That gives me an uncertainty of when it's dead on or off by a few thousandths!

@pierresgarage2687

7 жыл бұрын

If you could make it do he problem at the store I'm pretty sure you could get another one if it looks not too abused, quality control is more a problem with the cheaper units than with brand names, you have to be a little more picky in order to save money though... ;)

@aprilk141

6 жыл бұрын

theomnipresent1, just measure three times with a reset between each time until you conclude that you really only need to measure once or twice. The expensive calipers I use at work do the same thing...

For that degree of critical measurement(as he said), it's best to use the micrometers....

@pierresgarage2687

6 жыл бұрын

In deed... ;) Thanks for your comment, Pierre

Thanks for that comparison. I guess my cheap ones will do for now, but like you wrote before I will keep my eyes open for a good set of used Name brand calipers.

@pierresgarage2687

7 жыл бұрын

Before spending a lot of good money for another unit, check how your unit is standing against known reference, maybe you got lucky and it's a great one... ;) Thanks for comment, Pierre

Thank you very much I just started a new job in a medical company. It isn't my first medical company it's actually my third. I've been Quality Control, QA Inspector. for all three companies. Yet in different departments from customers complaints to proof reading of manuals. I've been working in manufacturing since the late 80ies. Now I'm in the manufacturing department. Awesome! This video helped me plenty. In my measurements.

@pierresgarage2687

6 жыл бұрын

Thanks for the kind words, it's a pleassure to hear some feedback that says something in the video helped someone... I want to wish you plenty of success in your new job, and that it makes you happy to get up in the morning.... ;)

One thing to watch out for, even Mitutoyo is now made in Brazil or somewhere. You have to buy an old stock one to get made in Japan.

@pierresgarage2687

3 жыл бұрын

Quality control isn't as rigorous as it used to be, unfortunately....!!!! There are still goo tools available but you need to be picky.

The only digital calipers I have had were in the $30 range and I have found them to be within .001" I would trust them no closer than that.

@pierresgarage2687

7 жыл бұрын

Hi Brian, you're realistic about the 0.001", there comes a time where the operator counts as much as the tool, mostly to get the last bits of accuracy out of even the better name brands, but I definitely vote on better units to get the better jobs done. Thanks, Pierre

@bcbloc02

7 жыл бұрын

Pierre's Garage Like most things you tend to get what you pay for to at least some extent.

@pierresgarage2687

7 жыл бұрын

I've got a 30 inches vernier scale and a 40" digital, both are Mitutoyo, those are $$$$$ but can not compare to cheap Chinese CRAP in that range... Money isn't everything but, sometimes...

I have the oldest Mitutoyo digital caliper in my tool cart, at my work, after al those years it run as it was new.

@pierresgarage2687

3 жыл бұрын

over 40 years ago, I started with a vernier scale caliper, but I also have some quite old digital ones, even one with carbide lined jaws, still in perfect condition....

I use vernier calipers exclusively. I use them in my woodwork and mechanical hobbies.Yes, you have to learn how to read them, but it's not that hard to do (even at my advanced age). And you can tell instantly if they are in calibration or not. I bought a couple of Starrett dial indicators decades ago and they were fine, but if you don't keep them really clean the racks and gears can get sticky or even damaged. Digital indicators work fine but I never trust them completely. If you E-bay you can get fantastic deals on the best equipment. I can get just as good accuracy with vernier calipers as I can with micrometers (I have a number of them also).

@pierresgarage2687

3 жыл бұрын

Just like you, lots of my good tools are from local adds, by being on the lookout you can get real good deals on almost new tools..... 🙂🙂👍 Thanks for viewing and for your comment, Pierre

$12 is good value for that level of accuracy.

@pierresgarage2687

3 жыл бұрын

For most cases it is.....!!!!!

Good video! As a machinist now for 11-12 years I have a extensive collection of calipers and micrometers. About 2-3 years ago I bought a cheap pair (like in the video) to use around the house for projects and on vehicle repair/maintenance. They are reasonably accurate for most things around the house. But I stopped using them I was never happy with how they were built and the batteries would go dead very often so I ended up buying another 8" Mitutoyo harsh environment caliper for at home. Not everyone needs or can afford Mitutoyo calipers for at home but the fit & finish and hand feel of a quality tool is worth the investment.

@pierresgarage2687

7 жыл бұрын

My very first vernier was the 8" one in the video comparing the 11 units in some of my next video, still a great and precise tool, a little harder to read with age though... Good quality tools always pay off in the end ;) Thanks for your input and comment, Pierre

I just tested my Fowler on the 1-2-3 blocks I have thanks to this video. Although a little rough in measurement they seemed to be no more than half a thou over. Definitely good enough for hobbyist. The Canadian Tire one I had was a piece of crap - it had a problem on the quadrature sensor that caused it to jump some 5mm at random locations - it was the same jump every time. So I just got something a little better.

@pierresgarage2687

6 жыл бұрын

Hi Jeffrey, You really need to be choosy when you get the Canadian Tire calipers, some aren't that good depending of the batches... A caliper in a precise tool but far from a super precision tool, all depends on what your tolerances are, this is where judgement is to be used... ;) Thanks for your comment, Pierre

Great info. Thank you for sharing.

@pierresgarage2687

3 жыл бұрын

Glad you enjoyed and thanks for your comment... 🌈😉 There is a more recent video about the proper method on testing calipers, just in case you would be interested, here is the link: kzread.info/dash/bejne/moWlqKOfgK_PlJM.html

I got several Cheap Calipers and a few branded micrometers since i feel there isnt much point in me getting a branded caliper when i will be finishing my work measurements with a micrometer, so even with a very accurate caliper its still not as accurate as the micrometer

@pierresgarage2687

3 жыл бұрын

I quite agree with your findings... Thanks for viewing and for your comment....

I bought one of the cheaper models a few years ago and found it worked great, was accurate and in general no complaints. I recently bought another 2 for general checking (appeared to be identical) for work and BOTH measured OK but drained the button cell battery in a couple of days, even when off. They are only usable if you remove the battery each time you are finished with it. We are binning them. Very disappointing.

@pierresgarage2687

7 жыл бұрын

Hi Lance, Wow, a couple of days is a real bad deal... Is there any way to get it back to the store and complain, this doesn't make a good tool to keep. Never got a problem of the sort, the ones I own will last for at least 3 to five months with cheap batteries purchased at the Dollar Store at 5 for $1.00... Good luck in getting those back where they come from and get a refund.. Thanks for your input and for comment, Pierre

About when you measured with the newest mitutoyo calipers. I have those too and I never have to reset a zero, when I got it I cleaned the jaws and set the origin. I never had to touch the zero button unless I was making relative measurements. The slight anomalies you saw were most likely caused by a tiny speck of dirt between the jaws when you zeroed the calipers. And just after zeroing the calipers were the jaws cleaned.

@pierresgarage2687

7 жыл бұрын

You're right about keeping the jaws clean and checking regularly, it doesn't take much to offset the reading... Thanks for the comment, Pierre

great video pierre i have been using a mitutoyo caliper for 20 years a great product

@pierresgarage2687

7 жыл бұрын

Hi David, Mitutoyo tools are in my own opinion excellent tools, I still have my first micrometer and vernier that I purchased about 40 years ago and they're still in great shape after serving my needs for so long... Thanks for viewing and taking time to comment, Pierre

@davidwilliams4645

7 жыл бұрын

no problem pierre i enjoyed watching your video i am a retired electrical and refrigeration engineer living in the u.k but i still keep myself busy cant stop working but most of what i do now is auto airconditioning i gues it keeps me out of trouble ha ha i have subscribed to your youtube channel so i shall keep in touch all the best david

So unless you're building rocket parts for nasa or formula one engine parts it's ok to use the cheaper one. :) Great comparison video, thank you.

@pierresgarage2687

7 жыл бұрын

Hi, I mostly use my cheap caliper unless I really need the reliability and accuracy, then, most of the time the final measures are made with a micrometer... ;) Thanks for viewing and for comment, Pierre

@85CEKR

5 жыл бұрын

I would disagree, these days a one thou tolerance is considered huge, were I work anyways... And we dont make rocket parts or formula engines.

@edwinnochebuena1214

5 жыл бұрын

Cold forming here ..... we use mitotoyo calipers and mics .... mics get the diameters of the body the caliper gets the washer of the bolt

They are all highly accurate now because of the digital capacitance measuring system is so accurate and easy to manufacture. I have a Cheap-Chinese ($11) and a Mitutoyo ($35)... no difference between them.

@John_Ridley

7 жыл бұрын

Same here. I have a Mitutoyo and about 6 Harbor Freight specials. I occasionally test them against one another and I've never found any difference in reading between any of them.

@pierresgarage2687

7 жыл бұрын

HI, Those cheap tools are pretty accurate in most cases, the most problem with the cheaper one is in accuracy to measure inside bores, got this shown in a video where I compare like 11 different units, you'll see more that weak point... kzread.info/dash/bejne/iKWpys6Jkqyoqs4.html Thanks for viewing and for comment, Pierre

@phily-ue6et

5 жыл бұрын

The accuracy is fine, but the feel and quality of expensive calipers is in a different league. If you're only going to buy one set of calipers and use them for many years to come, which set would you feel proud to own. It depends on what you aspire to, cheap and cheerful or quality.

@amok42

5 жыл бұрын

$35 Mitutoyo digital calipers are definitely fake for that price.The non gen Mitutoyo often have "New" in the name. Genuine Mitutoyo are about AUD$300. The main issue with the non genuine/cheap calipers is that they become less accurate and erratic as the battery nears flatness.

@tomk3732

5 жыл бұрын

@@amok42 In Canada real stuff can be got for 160 CAD so around 160 AUD for absolutes with free shipping and for just over 100 CAD for non absolutes. You can get used ones for around 40-60 CAD. $35 new is probably a fake but a good fake is quite close to the original as per Ave - main difference is battery drain.

Thank you for posting this!

@pierresgarage2687

6 жыл бұрын

Thanks, and glad you liked and taken the time to comment, Pierre

Good test, when I get better I will up grade to the not so cheap ones. Good video, thanks.

@pierresgarage2687

7 жыл бұрын

The cheaper ones are great to do jobs in harsh conditions or to get close from targeted measures, then, a better tools is required to get better results... ;)

get what you pay for. the cheaper ones good for rough work where it's not critical

@pierresgarage2687

7 жыл бұрын

Hy Roy, I totally agree with you on that... ;) Thanks for comment, Pierre

I'll use this video in future when I can't sleep, it is beating the old one of paint drying by several inches😂

@rogerbaker2068

7 жыл бұрын

nilus1955 What's that in metric...?

Thanks, I use some inexpensive calipers too they are ok for wood.

@pierresgarage2687

7 жыл бұрын

Hi Robert, Those will be most of the time more precise than required, it all depends what we need for an end result... Thanks for viewing and for comment, Pierre

Thanks . I worried that cheap amazon ones would be inaccurate but within 1/1000” of the accuracy of expensive ones I think the cheap ones will be great for me. Accurate to 0.01mm is all I need

Until a year ago. i rocked that haircut but with a 6 inch beard 4 inch mustache and short hair on top. and by rocked it i mean i did that for 2 years straight.. how i still got laid is beyond me.

calipers to stuff close then micrometers for the last .020"

@pierresgarage2687

7 жыл бұрын

That's what most serious machinists do and it works... !!! ;) Thanks for comment, Pierre

@riceburner32

7 жыл бұрын

+Pierre's Garage for a direct comparative measurement 0~0 cheap ones are very close

@pierresgarage2687

7 жыл бұрын

Except for real fnacy work this Mastercraft take all the beating, I'm talking about the one with the electrical tape to keep the battery in the box... Where it gets different is when it comes to measure inside, if you get a little spare time there is a video where it makes the brand name winners...

@riceburner32

7 жыл бұрын

+Pierre's Garage best calipers only get you close, inside mic, bore gage and when all else fails snap gages.

@pierresgarage2687

7 жыл бұрын

You're absolutely right about that... Couldn't agree better... ;)

Very helpful explanations. Love the clean face.

@pierresgarage2687

7 жыл бұрын

Hello Jack, The wife think the same about the clean side... ;) Thanks for comment, Pierre

Most things I have to machine are +/- .005. Harbor Freight calipers are good enough most of the time. If I am doing high tolerance machining I always use a micrometer. You can make a caliper read whatever you want. Mics are more accurate in my experience. Good vid.

@pierresgarage2687

7 жыл бұрын

Hi Scott, This is a good way to see thngs, and right about micrometers being much more accurate... ;) Thanks for viewing and for comment, Pierre

Cheap or expencive, not see any big difference in accuracy in my experience. A caliper is not a accurate instrument anyway, better use it as 'guidance'. Naturally, for most of us doing this for as a hobby, it's usually more than accurate with a caliper. The biggest difference between cheap and expencive ones are battery life, in my opinion. Like a 1 day vs 5 years. those cheap calipers are EATING batteries bigtime!! at least the ones I'm familiar with.

@pierresgarage2687

6 жыл бұрын

Right about the aproximate accuracy of a caliper, and, it depends how close you need to get , some are better on battery life but sadly there is no certain way to find out before you try, the Dollar Store batteries or batches on eBay could help but you don't want to be left with 1000 minus 5 batteries to trash...

@Rimrock300

6 жыл бұрын

I would guess there are variations in battery life, both among cheap and expencive brands. I've got some $20 calipers on my lathe, accuracy is fine, but the battery life, oh my god..) If I'm unfortunate and forget to remove the batteries and let them be on from the morning until afternoon..nothing else to do run for new batteries next day) Bought a 'proffesional' caliper 20 years ago, Timex or something like that, $100 then. first battery change after 6-7 years, and it often happened I forget to turn it off for several days. Cost of batteries no bid deal, sure one can have a big storage of them, but just amazing such a big difference when it comes to battery life.

@pierresgarage2687

6 жыл бұрын

This is the first time someone tells me about a battery life that is soooo short as not even 24 hours... Normally for me a short life is more around a month or two as compared with the good brands they last years... That unit would be in the trash as far as I'm concerned, this is really a crappy tool... :(

@dtrrtd774

6 жыл бұрын

Rimrock300 I don't use mine very frequently so I remove the battery in between uses. To make it easier I actually glued an angled piece of plastic from an old credit card so I can pluck it out easily when I'm done using it. Battery lasts a long time then.

@BenjaminEsposti

6 жыл бұрын

Wow, to discharge those batteries that fast, the calipers must be taking around 50 to 100 milliamps. I wonder, have you tried genuine batteries? It might be possible that you've been scammed by the Chinese. Hell, some of those cheap power banks are nothing but a couple of old, used and often *worn out* battery cells from laptop batteries. I'm serious ... the cheapo chinese love reusing things. Then again, there ARE good Chinese products, at least in my knowledge when it comes to electrical test equipment. (Hint: "Rigol")

The cheaper callipers are good for measuring drill bits as you have to twist them about in the jaw to get a proper reading. As you know that's how 'twist drills' cut (or mark here) so a HSS bit twisting against the jaws of a device for accurate measurements over time isn't a good thing. The cheap ones are, well they're cheap & accurate enough. Good for college kids training as +-0.25mm tolerance on their jobs anyway.

@wontputrealname

7 жыл бұрын

Ashley McGovern If you are measuring the diameter of drills, HSS or not, you should measure the shank of the drill above the cutting edges. That way you're not touching the jaws with the cutting edges of the drill and should be doing no damage.

@ashleymcgovern5120

7 жыл бұрын

wontputrealname It doesn't always work like that in a toolroom environment. There are drills that have been re sharpened over & over & done well or badly & it's the tip that cuts not the shank. Especially when you need a specific odd size to pre-drill when tapping etc. We were always taught the shank can be fatter / bigger dia than the flute/tip. Always measure the tip. When making gauges to strict tolerances for the quality control to use, you can understand. It's not like building a bird box in my shed then.

@wontputrealname

7 жыл бұрын

+Ashley McGovern The flutes are NEVER of a larger diameter than the shank. If the hole bored is bigger the drill hasn't been re-ground properly. If the drill is ground with the cutting edges only slightly of unequal length, the hole will be larger than the drill's rated size.

@pierresgarage2687

7 жыл бұрын

Most of the time the accuracy is more than good enough on those calipers, if more precision is needed, then, a micrometer or something in that precision range is required. Drill bits just about never make a final hole the rated diameter, it's always a little larger if the flutes are vrey close to even on each side, and, much bigger if the flutes are uneven... This is another area of machining where the precision isn't the first call... ;) Thanks for viewing and for comment, Pierre

@wontputrealname

7 жыл бұрын

+Pierre's Garage This is why for a 1/2 inch hole to slide a bolt through, a 1/2 inch drill is fine as a new drill will drill a hole about 3 to 5 thou oversize, one which has been "done up" fairly well will be about 8 to 10 thou oversize. If, however, a 1/2 inch hole with a closer tolerance is needed, then a 31/64" drill should be used and a 1/2" reamer passed through the hole after as the reamer will give a hole

After 29 years in the machinist/tool room business I've had the big 3 ( Mitutoyo, Starrett, and Brown & Sharpe) for when accuracy matters, when accuracy doesn't matter don't waste your money or the risk of damage from dropping the expensive ones.

@pierresgarage2687

6 жыл бұрын

I like to use the better tools in cases where higher precision is required, but in crappy environment the cheaper decent ones do great, like mentionned, a caliper or a vernier isn't a vrey precise instrument in itself. Reliability is prime factor, though... Thanks for your comment, Pierre

Great video, thanks.

@pierresgarage2687

7 жыл бұрын

Hi, thanks for watching and for comment, Pierre

These are great till the battery goes flat, when your out on a job. I prefer the traditional job. When will America get out of the stone age and go metric. Good interested test, thanks.

@pierresgarage2687

4 жыл бұрын

Canada is quite metric on most measures, schools have been teaching it for many years now. The young generation is using metric on almost all. All of our containers, speed, distance, temperature are metric. Construction are still using some imperial basic measures, as an example, plywood paneling is still 4 feet by 8 feet, but, the thickness is gone metric with let's say thickness of 19 millimeters, also lots of hardware and fasteners are still imperial, it's getting very much easier to get metric versions at all suppliers. On the other hand, the US are not very advanced in the usage of metric except for the car industry and a few other applications... Thanks for viewing and for comment.... 🙂👍

@SoloRenegade

3 жыл бұрын

America has been metric for decades

@stephenlennox6491

3 жыл бұрын

@@SoloRenegade Supposedly. Like the UK the older blokes still like imperial measurements. Just an age thing.

@SoloRenegade

3 жыл бұрын

@@stephenlennox6491 I don't find either an issue. Where I work we use imperial and metric at the same times even, doesn't phase us. Rarely encounter conversion issues either. I like how easy metric units convert, but no unit of measure is perfect, even metric. And metric still is used improperly at times, such as kg for weight and mass. 10 doesn't divide cleanly into 3 or 4. Imperial can do tenths, same as metric. Metric still uses hr/sec, and degrees, same as imperial.... to me, arguing over units is like arguing over language that never stops evolving, kinda pointless really, when you think about it enough.

For the type of stuff I do these cheap ones are great buys. I *do* keep a Mitutoyo caliper and a small micrometer on hand that I only rarely use. When I need real accuracy that micrometer has beed great. They were worth the money, despite the small amount of use they get, because when it needs to be accurate and it is not it costs a lot more time, money and materials when you screw it up. So I keep the Mitutoyo stuff very clean and locked away. My cheap measuring stuff just sits on my bench in their boxes. Or just dumped into a drawer. Good video!

@pierresgarage2687

7 жыл бұрын

This is a clever use of cheaper stuff, nothing stops us to revert to the better tool when needed..... ;) Thanks for viewing and for comment, Pierre

Thanks have used cheap ones and for what I have done they have been fine. but as you said at the end micrometers are the best! thanks for your work!

@pierresgarage2687

7 жыл бұрын

Hi Danne, If a tool is used for what it is with it's limitations, there is no problem to it... ;) Thanks for viewing and for comment, Pierre

I keep my starrett No. 425 on me at all times - sometimes I'm using it daily. Love that tool.

@pierresgarage2687

6 жыл бұрын

Having a great quality tool is a pride and joy, makes us want to use it, while taking great care... Thanks for viewing and taking time to comment, Pierre

YES WELL, IF IT CAN'T BE FIXED WITH A HAMMER, IT'S AN ELECTRICAL PROBLEM, MAXXAUS.

@pierresgarage2687

3 жыл бұрын

There are lots of electrical problems on this Earth, we need MORE electricians..... 😈😉🌈👍

did you notice that you got 3.1415 on minute 7:14? by chance? hahahaha

@pierresgarage2687

7 жыл бұрын

Not then, but now I see it... ;) Thanks for comment, Pierre

Great, clear evaluation

@pierresgarage2687

7 жыл бұрын

+John Sawyer thanks for comment, Pierre

I bought the same Mastercraft one, and it works well for my purpose where \i was looking for .01mm accuracy. The document that came with it indicated an accuracy of +/- .002mm, which is 50x more accurate than I need, so it suits my purpose well. I always look for more accuracy than I need, specifically so I can account for tolerance fluctuations.

@pierresgarage2687

7 жыл бұрын

Hi, those tools are decent ones, the older one in the video has been serving me reliably for many years now, for more precision I got different ways to get there, most people don't need more and it's perfectly fine... ;) Thanks for viweing and for comment, Pierre

as long as you're using the inch as a unit, it doesn't matter which caliper you use! period!

@dimosk7389

7 жыл бұрын

look, a member of the metric system master race acting like a child. btw, i am not american and i only know metric system, but i dont act like a smartass about imperial

@TechTomVideo

7 жыл бұрын

no - you act like a dumbass about the metric master race ;)

@dimosk7389

7 жыл бұрын

TechTom and yet I am a member of this master race. I just don't act like a smartass like you

@elintra

7 жыл бұрын

Using inches is more preferable for everyday staff, and why can't you use imperial, its probably harder work for you.

@TechTomVideo

7 жыл бұрын

elintra because only two retarded countries in this world rely on imperial. imperial is not logic, unprecise and hey... look at the definitions of the imperial units. nowadays all of them are defined by a factor of a meteic unit... so in fact you have already the metric system, but you convert it to imperial for no logical reason.

why does he keep saying .05 when he means .0005 or 1/2 a thousandth with calipers this means nothing

The 2nd set of Mitutuyo calipers look like mine that I bought in college. I'm a design engineer and need calipers and a micrometer to measure/check parts and occasionally do production support.

@pierresgarage2687

3 жыл бұрын

My very first precision tools over 40 years ago were Mitutoyo's, those are still in great condition, with minimal care they'll last for ever....!!!

@osnaldov

3 жыл бұрын

That is the only brand I buy. Never settle for less.

Thank you sir. Great video

@pierresgarage2687

4 жыл бұрын

Glad you liked it!

What's wrong with a regular non digital vernier guage? Bloody lazy youngsters these days!

@wontputrealname

7 жыл бұрын

+Peter Huskins Most people either don't know, or can't be bothered to learn, how to read a VERNIER caliper, yet they have the cheek to call digital calipers by the same name. Digital calipers are NOT vernier calipers, as I'm sure you know.

@petehuskins

7 жыл бұрын

Well said! There's certainly a sense of satisfaction when you're young and learning the tools of the trade in learning how to read a vernier scale. Like the people who blindly follow the sat-nav in their cars as it guides them off a cliff, they will just look at a digital read-out and not think about the numbers they're seeing.

@pierresgarage2687

7 жыл бұрын

Hi Peter, As we get older those digital tools are a blessing in order to ease the reading, before those came a common item I use to read a regular vernier scale, but, now with age it's much more difficult to see and make out the scale.... ;) Thanks for viewing and for comment, Pierre

@petehuskins

7 жыл бұрын

No problem Pierre. I'm just a bit of an old duffer when it comes to modern tech. Im sure in another 100 yrs when Im old and my eyes don't work so well, I'll buy one! ; )

@dimosk7389

7 жыл бұрын

in the same manner, whats wrong with using paper and pencil instead of a calculator for doing all the calculations for your job? whats wrong with using regular mail service instead of e-mail? its just faster and more efficient. thats all. yes, Vernier calipers are cool to work with when you are at your Eng workshop class, but when you have deadlines at your work, you dont have the luxury of time

If you measure in inches your opinion is irrelevant.

@pierresgarage2687

7 жыл бұрын

I don't see why this comment would be so much more relevant...???

@jimpeachey1352

7 жыл бұрын

Makes sense to me to use British Units when the reference blocks are in British Units!

@jadekayak01

7 жыл бұрын

the British use the metric system

@jimpeachey1352

7 жыл бұрын

That's not the point! The test was of the accuracy of various devices. The tests were using calibrated blocks that were British units; therefore it seems reasonable that one would test using the units that match the reference material.

@jadekayak01

7 жыл бұрын

if you go back to imperial measurement systems you are idiots-you even decimalized the £

Thing that messes me around is the amount of pressure applied. All my calipers measure different. Operator error I guess. I’ve tried a blind test and that had better results, I tend to push as hard as the number I’m looking for.

Nicely done Pierre! You gotta love those Mitutoyo calipers. ATB, Robin

@pierresgarage2687

7 жыл бұрын

Hi Robin, even with Mitutoyo or any brand name units better check when you buy them sometimes you may get unpleasant surprises, those are good ones... ;) Cheers, Pierre

@albion2742

6 жыл бұрын

ROBRENZ I still like my Moore and Wright and Starrett mics, verniers calipers. although I do have some Mitutoyo stuff. I am retired but still keep all of it .

That's not a very good review of calipers. Go over to the channel for AvE and see that review of calipers. He actually tears them apart and you understand the difference in the electronics and you'll know that your batteries will die very very fast in the cheap one.

@pierresgarage2687

6 жыл бұрын

This review is meant to be somthing different, if I want to know the how and why of the battery life then I watch AVE's video again... This is more directed to the use and difference in accuracy and quality controll of the tools...

It would have been interesting to see the micrometer readings on those gauge blocks for comparison.

@pierresgarage2687

7 жыл бұрын

Hi, just any micrometer is going to be more precise than a caliper even a good brand name tool, I've got another video where I compare gauge blocks and us micrometers if you're interested here are some links: kzread.info/dash/bejne/fXZtybOmnbDWhrA.html kzread.info/dash/bejne/e5p1pJOoYJC6mtI.html kzread.info/dash/bejne/iKWpys6Jkqyoqs4.html Hope you enjoy the discussion about different aspects of metrology applied to smaller shops or for hobby use... Pierre

I worked in a hydraulic pump repair shop and we had all kinds of different brands of calipers and micrometers and all that stuff and my favorites were always the mitutoyos. However that was a while ago have no idea what their quality is like now.

@pierresgarage2687

4 жыл бұрын

Same here, Mitutoyos were my firsts about 40 years ago, still true now... The better tools are always "Better Tools"...

Best compare I ever seen! Thanks a lot :)

@pierresgarage2687

6 жыл бұрын

Hi, glad you got something good from the video and thanks for taking some time to leave a comment, Pierre

thanks for the comparison Pierre. great price for those cheap ones.

@pierresgarage2687

7 жыл бұрын

Hi Jason, There are some good deals to be made in purchasing some low priced tools, though, some judgment is to be exercised, best to get advice from people that already tested them before and gave an honest opinion about it... Thanks for comment, Pierre

Thanks. Very helpful.

@pierresgarage2687

6 жыл бұрын

Thank you for your comment, I'm glad you got something from this post... Pierre

point well taken, thanks for your video, totally agree with your thourghts

Great info Sir!

@pierresgarage2687

7 жыл бұрын

Hi jster, glad you enjoyed and thanks for comment, Pierre

yeah had the same caliper as (mastercraft) and i notice the jaws bend about 1 thousand if not more so the measurement was smaller then the actual size merci du video pierre

@pierresgarage2687

7 жыл бұрын

Hi Marc, You really got to look at the tool when you purchase one of those, some are really made in a sloppy manner... If you look in some of the next videos, you'll see what I mean, where the jaws to measure the inside of a bore are simply not manufactured properly... Malgé tout on ne peut se passer de Canadian Tire... lol Thanks for your input and comment, Pierre

Thank you. Very good to know.

@pierresgarage2687

7 жыл бұрын

Hi, glad it helped you with some useful info also thanks for viewing and for comment, Pierre

I disassembled my cheap caliper. I looked at the circuit board finger pattern that forms the capacitive sensor with a microscope. I could see that the layout was not drawn with knowledge of the pcb manufacturers print resolution, as there was a visible error in the spacing of the traces. If the traces are not positioned at integer number of final print resolution steps, the PCB traces will have some dither to their positions, limiting the resolution of the instrument. Doing it correctly costs nothing. Apparently Mitutoyo engineers bothered to work with their PCB maker to do this right. Very amazing to see the performance.

@pierresgarage2687

4 жыл бұрын

Most of the time, using the same materials will give two very different products, and, most of the time only a few operations better taken care will make all the difference, this is where we differentiate the better companies from the lousy ones... Good observation...!!!

Two questions/comments: 1. It looks like there would be in induced error just from placing the stock in the calibers by hand. If the stock/gage block is not exactly square with the jaws with one end high or low, the calipers reading would be affected. This corresponds with use on a lathe where the calipers is not applied exactly perpendicular to the work. The thin calipers jaws do not necessarily square the tool with the work. 2. The test would benefit from a duplication check. Do the calipers read the same in multiple readings, perhaps returning to the stock after measuring something else. Good video. Thank you.

Great video! Couldn't agree with you more. I think anybody buying a $12 caliper probably isn't doing something mission critical enough to cause a disaster if it's 1/1000th off. I love quality tools, and tools I use often are good quality, but I've always been okay with a "cheap" caliper - it isn't like I'm honing cylinder heads or anything. But if I was, I would probably step up to something nicer to prevent a headache. I wanted to mention I notice the cheap caliper I have (the same $12 one you have) drains the coin cell if you leave it in. Seems to trickle power even when turned off, so I don't store it with the battery installed. Conveniently the case has a little divot for the battery to rest.

@pierresgarage2687

3 жыл бұрын

To get the proper tool for the job includes being realistic about the quality of that tool, calipers and verniers aren't "Super High Precision Tools", they're great to get near precision measurements, then, more precise tools are required, a good machinist is aware of this first hand... BTW, those $12 calipesr are quite acceptables for most jobs in the shop, it saves the $$$$ ones some wear and tear.... 🌈👍

Great vid! I found that most frustrating thing cheap digital calipers is the battery life! Where as Quality caliper manufacturers batteries last years. I a set of Tesa calipers that I have owned for 8 years are still on the original battery

@pierresgarage2687

4 жыл бұрын

With most digital calipers I expect at least one year of battery life, a little moe on brand names, we just need to be aware that there the SR-44 and LR-44 types, the SR are more expansives and will outlast the LR series, since most of us buy the LR batteries we get about one year, the SR will at least double or triple that time, at a cost, though... * 8 years is a LONG time....!!!! Thanks for your comment, Pierre

I had already purchased a set of the inexpensive pair and have been using them quite often. No issues so far other than the battery cover not being the best; I did the black tape fix. I had been wondering just how accurate they are. Thanks for the info!

@pierresgarage2687

7 жыл бұрын

Hi, funny thing about the black tape, that's the most point those cheap calipers got in common... Even now my second cheap caliper, the newer one got promoted to the black tape rank... lol Thanks for viewing and for comment, Pierre

I am a woodworker and I don't use calipers every day. I have a cheep digital one but I have to remove the battery when I put it away because it kills the battery if I don't. My favorite caliper is the dial type, easy to read accurate enough for me and always ready to measure.

@pierresgarage2687

6 жыл бұрын

Hi Terry, Cheaper tools aren't created equal, some will "Eat" the Battery in a very short period of time and some others like the cheap ones shown here will take at most 2 cheap 25 cents batteries a year at most, the accuracy readind on the exterior dimension is pretty good with all calipers, expensives or cheap alike, the main problem is when it comes to inside reading, not all are the same, this is due to the care of the fabrication on the jaws ont the tool. There is also a video about this I made a little after, here is the link: kzread.info/dash/bejne/iKWpys6Jkqyoqs4.html Thanks for viewing and taking time to comment, Pierrre