Hi Armin! The longbow was drawn shorter as its draw weight at 28'' is identical to the other two when the're drawn to "full length". The Turkish bows are said to have almost the identical draw weight "at full draw" that is appearently longer than when you shoot the longbow with finger release. However it is not only about draw weight but also about "power stroke" when it comes to comparng arrow velocities. A longer drawn bow pushes and accelerates the arrow for a longer time. So, 50#@28 is not the same like 50#@30, the latter transferring more energy to the arrow. Having repeated this assessment with idential draws-weights Turkish bows would reveal more speed for sure, because of less limb mass, reflex profile in unstrung state and even because of being shot with a thumbring (n your case it is bare-thumbed and it soed not add extra speed). Nice to watch anyway!

@ArminHirmer

2 жыл бұрын

That was exactly the point I wanted to make

@stefanhansen5882

8 ай бұрын

@@ArminHirmer Next time it would be great to compare bows with exactly the same draw weight at whatever draw length is appropriate for the bow. This didn't tell much, as I see it.

@ArminHirmer

8 ай бұрын

@@stefanhansen5882 one cannot please anyone as it seems...

@stefanhansen5882

8 ай бұрын

@@ArminHirmer It was just a friendly advice. Here you might be shooting the bows at different draw weights. If so, the speeds tell nothing about the efficiency of the bows.

Armin, I really want to thank you for helping me to improve my archery. I learned two really important things from you recently on your podcast. 1. Only shoot three arrows at a time because your concentration lags. 2. Shoot at smaller targets, specifically you were talking about shooting at something the size of a beer coaster. I discovered when I shoot 3 arrow rounds I can shoot for longer because I don't get as tired, and I shoot better, and it's easier to spot patterns. I discovered when I started shooting at smaller targets, that I'm a much better archer than I thought. I struggled to hit consistently within a 9 inch circle at 18 meters on a traditional circle target, but when I moved to a smaller 4 inch target, suddenly I could hit them pretty well at fifteen meters. Thanks so much.

Thanks it is a great video, It is quite interesting to see how a basic and relative consistent physical law can have so many different interpretations, because of the observers different paradigms.

Thank you so much Armin, another great video as always 🙂

Such a original content. Thanks a lot for the nice video

Thank you for making the commitment to use something more than 1080p for your videos!

@ArminHirmer

2 жыл бұрын

I do since years

Thank you Armin for the video. The results are as expected. And with 48 lbs, an average of 170 fps is very good for a longbow! BUT do check the drawlength, as this is far from consistent in this experiment.

@ArminHirmer

2 жыл бұрын

Of course, that was not the question Magén. The question was are 50 pounds always 50 pounds ;) and my shooting was accurate enough to get an idea of the difference. If you want to do it scientifically, of course you need a shooting machine (which I will get soon)

@ArminHirmer

2 жыл бұрын

According to Peter it is poundage plus 100 which would be the speed. So even if the bow only would have 150fps would be good. Yours is way faster

Nice video :D I really cant wait for you to review about korean bow and their grip again, idk why, i just fell in love with korean bow xD

Im only here for the arguments about bendy sticks. :)...

@ArminHirmer

2 жыл бұрын

might be bunch hahaha

@Kinl23

2 жыл бұрын

Whatever works right. 😁👍... I'm team Turkish when it comes to bows. I'm sure my Brethren would prefer I'm on the Long team though. 😅

Great video 👍🏼 they are all pretty close. God Bless

Thx you mr

If the poundage has been measured at the DL that the bow is shot at, it is a semi-fair comparison, but the longer power stroke would still give an advantage to the Asiatic bows. That said, recurve design is faster, so I would still expect them to outperform the Hill style longbow. After all, hybrid longbows are typically faster than D shaped longbows due to the slight recurve of the tips. I also find them much sweeter drawing (in most cases).

@ArminHirmer

2 жыл бұрын

That was the whole purpose of the video

@lukehegdal6627

2 жыл бұрын

This is a good point. I would like to see the comparison at the same draw weight AND draw length. The Traditional Bowyers Bible Vol. 4 has a very interesting chapter on arrow speed, with light outer-limb longbows achieving best speeds at 10gpp.

All I can say is thank you!

Fun and interesting !

Next time consider shooting three or four different arrow weights in your comparison so that we can see which bow "prefers" heavier vs lighter arrows. Love your videos, sir. Been shooting bows since I was 8 (1950). ;)

Rabbit! :D good video they all look like nice bows.

Hahahah I knew right away that this was going to be very controversial when I saw what it was about. Armin maybe you have to measure the bows with the scale and mark the respective extension on the arrow, so that all the "arguments" about "you have drawn the bow longer" etc. are invalid. For me it is obvious, but for the longbow believers, you may have to paint it on. Thanks for the video, I'm really looking forward to the upcoming broadcast with Peter.

@ArminHirmer

2 жыл бұрын

I did for al bows reviews and there is the max poundage measured :) and that is fully enough for me, for some of course it will never be enough

@ArminHirmer

2 жыл бұрын

and hey a lot of interaction in a video is good for my ranking :D :D

@jkre

2 жыл бұрын

Actually you can make a longbow that shoots over 200 fps with 28" draw and 10 gpp. Eirik Diserud made a Norwegian military style bow with elm backed compression pine and it shot 211 fps with 29" draw it had over 100 pounds tough. Even I made a 51 lbs service berry longbow that shoots 10,4 gpp arrows (530 grain) 183 fps with 29" draw, that's faster than any bow on this video, even tough it is just one piece of wood. Longbows can be very fast, but most of them isn't, that's why they have bad reputation, and most of them are self bows and compared to laminated, composite or fiberglass bows, so they will loose most of the time due to material limitations, not because they are longbows. In addition to that, most people don't know how to make properly fast longbows, same goes to other designs too, most bows out there don't perform as well as they could, but it is more common for longbows to be under performing, cus they are commonly made out of only wood, and wood as a material needs special skill from the bowyer to keep all of its performance, and it is more effected by moisture level than modern material bows. Even tough the longbow in this video is modern material bow, it is not very high performing longbow, there are way faster ones out there.

@dasMoto

2 жыл бұрын

@@ArminHirmer hahaha, you are right. Haters gonna hate anyway. Let their hate support the f*ck out of your channel XD

Brother Armin, the “temren”- is the tip of the arrow which carries the strength. When you drew the Seljuk bow, the tip of the arrow almost sat perfectly on your hand (where you hold the bow with left hand.) but with ottoman style bow, the arrow was maybe a few inches away from the correct position. The bow could have recorded 180-185

Great video makes sense and powerstroke is a part of it but a bow designed to draw 29 inches will always be outperformed by bows drawing longer. Longbow guys always seem to have something to argue about. Many look at the literal size of the longbow and think that means power and efficiency.

@constantinsabin3193

2 жыл бұрын

longbow is the most inneficient bow ever . but it was the first bow type ever produced in human history.

Well that, that answers that question. 😀👍🏻 A quick insight. Will Peter, ‘The Bowman’, also share a short of his experience with Asiatic style vs Hill longbow too? It’s interesting to see how the three different bows perform/ compare when shot, by the same Archer with their consistent shooting style.

Very nice comparison.. I think the only difference for me would be that the longbow is more stable and easier to hold on target, I think that the smaller a bow becomes the harder it is to comfortably draw accurately, I guess its similar to a stabilizer.. The longer the lever the more stable the platform !!

@ArminHirmer

2 жыл бұрын

of course, the shorter the more demanding :)

@johnminnitt8101

2 жыл бұрын

It would be nice to have another comparison of the same bows, but for accuracy at longer range, say 40 - 50 metres.

Some people seem to be drawing the wrong conclusions about the video. This is a speed comparison, not a comparison of the merits of the designs. This for and only for giving an idea of arrow speeds. If you take a manchu bow for example, it has very slow arrow speeds but boasts an insanely efficient draw force curve. If you take a look at a longbow, it's not meant to be very fast or very powerful but it is inexpensive and simple to make (compared to composites), perhaps the most cost effective warbow design. Of course if you compare them in speed to for example a turkish or a korean bow, whose key design elements heavily involve speed optimization, they're going to be slower. A faster bow doesn't mean a better bow. It just means a faster bow. The conclusion you should draw from this isn't that bow A is way better than B, the conclusion you should draw is that A is faster than B.

@ArminHirmer

2 жыл бұрын

I just showed that 50 pounds are not always 50 pounds :)

@jareth7456

2 жыл бұрын

What I got out of it ....is a comparison of how much of an equal amount of energy gets transferred into the same arrow The jannisary Turkish bow put more of the 47lbs of force into the 500 grain arrow resulting in higher velocity.....which is better if you're needing to get an arrow further to hit an enemy at greater range or to penetrate his armor ....the more energetic arrow will go further and penetrate deeper . Because of its design and materials one bow will fire a more energetic arrow

@Susikohmelo

2 жыл бұрын

​@@jareth7456 That's true, though there is a note I'd like to add. The bows in the comparison do not have an equal amount of energy, they only have an equal amount of draw weight. You need to measure draw weight across the entire draw length to know the *total* amount of energy the bow needs to be drawn (Aka a draw force curve. Then calculate the surface area of that curve to get total energy). The longbow needs less energy to be drawn even though the draw weight is the same which is why it is a big contributing factor to why it is way slower, it physically doesn't have the same energy to put in the arrow. Or more briefly as Armin just put it: "50 pounds is not always 50 pounds".

Nice comparison 👍 Please also compare between fiberglass bow, laminated bow, and bio-composite bow.

@ArminHirmer

2 жыл бұрын

thats video was purely to show that 50# are not always 50#

As someone who makes bows.... yes. Why the hell would people have ever gone though the significant extra effort to make recurved limbs rather than straight limbs if it didn't have an advantage. Same regarding the shorter limbed bows drawing the same length. It's much harder to make a short bow that draws 28 than a long bow that draws 28. Of course there is some advantage to it, or people would never have put in that extra effort. The extra smooth shooting and stable experience of long bows (not to mention speed and relative ease of production) is why people continued making long bows.

@jkre

2 жыл бұрын

Also as someone who makes bows. Recurves store more energy but are not always faster. That's because recurves are untestable and to compensate that, the limb needs to be wider and because limb stiffness comes more from thickness than width, a narrower limb has less mass and therefore needs less energy to move. My personal best so far, is a 51 lbs self longbow that shoots 530 grain arrows 183 fps. That's faster than any bow in this video and faster than most other self bows, even tough it is not as fast as a self bow can be, and it is straight, no reflex nor deflex in it. Also there is another bowyer, Eirik Diserud, who's elm backed compression pine Norwegian military style bow shoots 211 fps with 10 gpp, and that is even faster than most if not all commercial recurves on the market (they sometimes measure faster speeds, but they use under 10 gpp arrows). The bow how ever was glued on 17 cm reflex, but it doesn't have recurves, when strung, it looks like a longbow. I think only well made manchu bow could shoot faster than that, but only if both used like 15 gpp arrows. I might be wrong, but I have never seen faster bow with 10 gpp than that, not modern nor traditional (bows with training wheels don't count, traditional bows don't stand a change against them). But of course on average longbows perform quite poorly, poorer than recurves on average, that is due to the build quality and materials, not to the lack of recurves, the few exceptionally fast longbows prove that longbows can be just as fast and even faster than some recurves. Why then making recurves if longbows can be as fast? That is with 10 gpp arrows, recurves can be faster in lower arrow weights or higher, depending on what is the recurve made for. So you can either have longer range with light arrows or more damage on shorter ranges with heavy arrows. Also longbows were more often self bows, and composite bow is on average faster than self bow, if the longbow isn't a self bow, but laminated bow like that 211 fps one I mentioned above, then it is not as clear witch one is faster. On top of that, wooden bow looses its draw weight and speed if it is strung for too long, composite recurves loose also, but they can be strung for months in a row and always be ready for fight while you are in a military campaign and after unstringing gaines back the lost poundage after a while, self bows you need to unstrung and re strung every time or loose draw weight permanently. Shorter recurves are also more handy in tight spaces and on horse back, or on a chariot like it was first intended to be used, since composite bow is older invention than horse back archery, tough back then the composite bows were not yet recurve bows.

@crazycanadian7223

2 жыл бұрын

@@jkre 183 from a 51# selfbow? Sounds like Mr. Hirmer should get one of your bows on the show!

@jkre

2 жыл бұрын

@@crazycanadian7223 I agree, and I'm actually working on that. Haven't contacted Armin yet about it tough. Problem being that here in Finland the climate is cool and dry, ideal for bow performance, especially with the white woods I haave access to, Malta I think, is more humid and hot, so white woods will suck in moisture and loose their speed, that would not happen as much to yew or osage orange bow. So the bow, even if it would shoot 183 fps here, would most likely not shoot that fast in Malta. I might make a bamboo backed exotic hardwood bow for him instead because of that humidity reason, but I'm also intrigued to find out, how much exactly the heat and humidity affects to the performance. I haven't yet decided what I'm going to do, and like mentioned, I need to contact Armin also first. Also my production is extremely small right now, I have a day job and a family and pretty much no customers at the moment, so my main focus is in other things. Hoping that I would actually get my bow to be reviewed by Armin and thus getting more potential customers.

@DANTHETUBEMAN

2 жыл бұрын

That's the long answer 😂

@bakters

2 жыл бұрын

" *Why the hell would people have ever* " For a good longbow you need prime bow wood. Most of the world didn't have any.

With the two bows that are not a long bow it appears that your arrow spine is off, especially for the recurve. You will need to look into doing the test over with arrows that match the other bows and compare the performance. Then you could make the arrows correct for the non-longbows and see what the performance is, even though they will be overly stiff for the longbow. Just a thought.

Interesting comparison! However, I don't think that the different maximum draw lengths is a strong enough reason to compare them at different draw lengths - because most of the shooters have a favorite style (they will shoot most of the time - and better - either thumb or 3 fingers, so most shooters în real life will draw in only one way with same draw length every time.) This is why I think 2 (or several bows) can be compared when their maximum draw length is exactly the same (and, of course, the shooting draw length the same). It would be also interesting to see a comparison among different bows with same maximum draw length (but significantly different designs) and same shooting draw length at very different gpp (5, 10, 15) to see for each the compromise energy storage/efficiency.

@ArminHirmer

2 жыл бұрын

that was just to show that 50 pounds are not always 50 pounds, nothing more and that the draw length will affect the result

Ha! Take that, Peter 😂

Perhaps the the horses bows have a little longer draw giving the string more time to accelerate the arrow, a longer power stroke, if you will🤔

@ArminHirmer

2 жыл бұрын

that was the point I wanted to show

Great video as always, if draw weight is same but one made from fiberglass and another biocomoposite/composite are the speed still same ?

@ArminHirmer

2 жыл бұрын

dont know

The speeds were closer than I thought they would be, however I bet the horsebows have much less hand shock!

Longbow profile is only interesting for purists who wants the feeling of a longbow that tends to stack exponentially in the limbs. It is also the best shape like you said if you want to reach 150-300lbs at 28". Personally I prefer hybrid longbow profiles, they are still longer than the horse asiatic bows but still 4-6 inches shorter than a longbow, the slight reflex deflex gives you more power. Hybrid longbows and recurve short bows, the best options for a hunter

Just looked at my little Janissary and she winked😉😁

@ArminHirmer

2 жыл бұрын

a beauty isn't she :)

@jenjen7728

2 жыл бұрын

@@ArminHirmer Indeed.🏹🌸

...Easter-beard !? 🙃😎👍

It's always seemed to me that a longbow is much much quieter than other bows. And Historically they are easier to make.

@awesomereviews1561

2 жыл бұрын

I have 4 longbows ( including a war bow) and 6 “horsebows”. The longbow aren’t more quiet. Longbows are easier to make IF make in a self bow manner. They are also more durable and cheaper to make that way.

@Eric-ut5ld

2 жыл бұрын

@@awesomereviews1561 I have string silencers on mine. It makes virtually no noise when shot besides the arrow. My longbow and horsebow are relatively quiet compared to my recurve. That thing is incredibly loud.

A very interesting thing to do! I guess more speed means more penetration power?

@RoyMcAvoy

2 жыл бұрын

Yes, provided that the weight is the same

Longbow had much heavier limbs, so slower movement but can stabilize heavy arrows

The second bow sounded like it was hitting harder.

Hey Armin, what chronograph do you use for your videos?

@ArminHirmer

2 жыл бұрын

Right now the virtue clock 3

@jakemccoy2226

2 жыл бұрын

@@ArminHirmer thank you so much!

You did get the results that were expected but you were drawing bow #2 farther.

@ArminHirmer

2 жыл бұрын

I am drawing all bows as far back a needed to get 47/48#

My question is we compare n review all these asiatic bows but what are the differences, what makes an assyrian an assyrian bow. What makes a turkish bow a turkish bow, what makes manchu a manchu, etc.

@ArminHirmer

2 жыл бұрын

The design and with that a slight different shooting characteristic

@mattconroy3918

2 жыл бұрын

@@ArminHirmer i figured that Armin, like turkish had less of size of siyah n no bridges today they have extended siyahs n closer to 90 degree i think…….You are an expert, couldn’t you add a little bit of history to the reviews, I did notice ce assyrian are short little curves at end n nice bend. There’s so many n I bought grozer out off the start. I am making them now, not asiatic but deer antler siyahs. Like in specifications “we call this a manchu because ………”

@ArminHirmer

2 жыл бұрын

@@mattconroy3918 I am not an expert in history. For this we have the well known people out :) I like to shoot whatever bow :)

활에 진심인 형이네

What not you included Korean bow Armin?

@ArminHirmer

2 жыл бұрын

lazy :) and these 2 asiatic were the ones I found and they match the poundage

@dtoxxyz5871

2 жыл бұрын

@@ArminHirmer when that Korean bowmaker bow review is coming who make compressed carbon bow. Who claim low poundage bow with more performance.

You draw longer with the asiatic bows than the longbow. Unless the draw length, or better power stroke (the distance the string travels) is the same, all the results tell is that if you draw longer you get faster arrow flight. 50 pounds at 28" is not the same as 50 pounds at 30", the longer draw length (if the brace hight is the same) will have longer distance to accelerate the arrow, and thus faster arrow speed. This is not to say that there isn't any difference between different bows, there sure is, and it can be even as high as 60-70 fps and even more on some cases (some bows only shoot 130 fps while others 200+), but unless the draw length (actually power stroke) is the same, the difference cannot be accurately measured.

@Fredjo

2 жыл бұрын

It is an accurate measurement if we're measuring potential power of each bow. If the longbow max draw length is shorter than the other bows at 50#, we can safely say that the longbow has lower potential power stroke at the max draw length than the other bows. The results then help in choosing a bow, if I want a more "powerful" 50#, I know that I should probably go for Asiatic over longbows, it's not surprising news but it's nice to have a tested comparison.

@ArminHirmer

2 жыл бұрын

I know that, some yet dont believe that :)

@jkre

2 жыл бұрын

@@Fredjo not really, cus you would select a bow to fit your draw length, you can have a longbow that draws longer than most asiatic bows.

@jkre

2 жыл бұрын

@@ArminHirmer I know you do know it, that's why i find it odd that you would do a speed comparison between bow models and not have consistency in power stroke. I know the longbow would probably loose anyway, but at least it wouldn't seem as bad in comparison to others.

@MarcRitzMD

2 жыл бұрын

@@Fredjo that makes no sense with regards to comparing bow designs. The potential energy (there is no such think as potential power) is the integral of force. By disregarding distance (power stroke in bow terminology), any measurement wouldn't say anything about the inherent performance of a bow design or product. You would need a crazy ton of data sets for regressional analysis to work out the confounding variables. They do that in statistics a lot when they can't control for all variables but you wouldn't set up any experiment in such a way. Poundage or force is just as important as draw length (or rather power stroke). Imagine the best Asiatic bow that reaches 50 lbs of force at a measly power stroke of 6 inches. That could come down to a measly draw length of about 12 inches. Now, imagine some pvc pipe bow made in 30 minutes that reaches 50 lbs at a draw length of 28 inches. It will always outperform that Asiatic bow by multiples. At common draw lengths, each inch will affect performance by around 4-5 percent.

0:30-0:33 What was that?Rabit?Dog?Cat?URO?;-)

@ArminHirmer

2 жыл бұрын

cat :D

@4unkb0y

Жыл бұрын

if you look closely there's quite often a cat in the background of Armin's videos :-)

Watch the video and you'll see that Your draw on the second bow is Two inches longer than the first Or third bow. Third bow still wins.

@ArminHirmer

2 жыл бұрын

of course, thats the whole point of this video. all bow have at their different full draw length 48#

@billbertagnoli4226

2 жыл бұрын

@@ArminHirmer thanks for the clarification. I was under the impression that they were all measured at 28 inches. Once again it's really informative to see the different types of bows especially those of asian origin. Thanks 😊

@ArminHirmer

2 жыл бұрын

@@billbertagnoli4226 should have explained more I guess, but my regular viewers knew :)

I believe the Hill ASL bows would be comparable 115 + bow draw weight 165fps for a 50lb even Howard's original Bamboo heavyweights would have just passed the 180 mark, I think to get an exact comparison the bows would need to be measured as drawn with. set of scales , also some back set an d bow makeup would play a part, a reflex deflex modern style AFB would be more comparable...

@ArminHirmer

2 жыл бұрын

yes but then a 115+ pound lets say Turkish bow will outperform the hill style again

@stuartmackay9270

2 жыл бұрын

@@ArminHirmer sorry for not being clear, the rating of a hill bow in FPS is 115fps + bow draw weight in FPS so 115fps +50lb (or 50fps) = 165fps... I was referring too FPS not a 115lb draw weight... Edit, but it would be good to see a review of bows at a 100lb on a test setup with scales?

You pulled the Seljuk bow further. Otherwise your results make sense. Very little difference. Where it goes depends on how "racy" they execution of the design happens to be. It's easier and cheaper to make "racy" lonbows... That's just true, until you "cheat" with modern materials.

@ArminHirmer

2 жыл бұрын

That was the whole purpose of this video

Sir, I'm from Indonesia, can you translate it into Indonesian?

unfair comparison. you draw horse bows more. I think longbow performs really good

@ArminHirmer

2 жыл бұрын

why unfair? all bows in full draw have the same poundage :)

@pyramid_scheme_termination3655

2 жыл бұрын

@@ArminHirmer different draw lengths. it should be same poundage same draw length. The stable longbow actually performed just as well and made those recurve syiah look overrated.

@ArminHirmer

2 жыл бұрын

@@pyramid_scheme_termination3655 maybe I did not make my point clear enough in the video. it was just about to show that a different draw length, bow design with the same poundage will get a different result

@pyramid_scheme_termination3655

2 жыл бұрын

@@ArminHirmer it seems if you were to draw that longbow as long as the Turkish bows or draw the Turkish draws as long as the longbow, they would perform the same. Your thoughts?

@ArminHirmer

2 жыл бұрын

@@pyramid_scheme_termination3655 they would have different poundage then and that was the point I wanted to make in this video, same same poundage does not mean same performance