"Uberduberwoobadoo" lives in my head rent free.

@RuleofCarnage

5 ай бұрын

Use it as your warcry.

Great to see you guys engaging with the community. Good on ya.

War games = list building, rpgs =character creation so I don’t necessarily agree on the list building being the one of the last things to focus on. If you are simulation or realistic war game or skirmish game yes. However if you change the focus to narrative and characters or units that you create/ want to play who just happen to be in a skirmish game then “list building/unit/ character creation can take higher priority.

@RuleofCarnage

2 жыл бұрын

The question of when you work on something isn't the same as whether or not its a priority. I put on my shoes after my socks, I still consider my shoes a higher priority when walking out the house. Units and characters are a higher layer part of the game and so their design generally needs to be at least completed last. You should have an idea of what stories you eventually want to tell and you should have them as part of your design document and guiding principles, but you need the foundations in place before you can create and balance the elements that rest on them.

Good discussion chaps. You discussed list building from a mechanical perspective, but didn't really cover the fact that it allows the players themselves to flesh out the background IP of your game and feel more invested. You may have only written quite a light background of your game setting, but every time your players use your list constraints, it builds and confirms that background.

@RuleofCarnage

2 жыл бұрын

Totally, something that we were very interested in with Gaslands was designing the sponsors so that as you played the way the story says you would you get rewarded. That's sort of at the junction of list building, mechanics and theme and we were trying to get more at the nature of list building games here. We'll have to talk about thematic mechanics in another video.

I have issues balancing list building against what I know players are going to play, and building an army that is reacting to a narrative pseudo-meta in my mind. So I show up with and Army of techno-phalangites matching to slaughter against almost any other army, because the hoards of barbarians that attack through the mountain passes, my army is designed to beat, doesn’t exist on any table top anywhere. Lol

@RuleofCarnage

2 жыл бұрын

As a designer I always try to ensure that any fun or cool story behind a potential army should be conceivably viable. As a player I've always loved trying to make weird or out there lists competitive, taking something that has no right to beat any list and making it able to beat every list is one of the true joys as a gamer for me.

Im 50/50 physical gamer, and computer gamer and always see things in one I'd like in the other. (And they getting increasingly closer) One thing in games such as Stellaris you can create almost any type of weird and wonderful civilisation. If you want a religious mafia of rock creatures. Or Communist Space Vikings, you can create them. And you get perks to choose from based on your preliminary choices. And further passive bonuses and penalties. I'd love more freedom in some table top systems. But how much is too much? Before you have to read through those three tons of list, rulebooks and Codexes,...Codexi,...Codesees? And the effects this can have on fun/playability and I know you aren't discussing it too much, but the effect on balance, or at least as you both said, one player decimating another player before a model has even been deployed.

@RuleofCarnage

2 жыл бұрын

Its tough because video games can do so much behind the scenes lifting where you can learn all the details if you want to, but it will work just fine if you don't, tabletop games don't really give you that option. We will be looking at balance at some point, but I think it needs its own whole conversation. Hobgoblin that Mike is working on now has more of an emergent list building system that gives more freedom, but its hard to do to much of a degree.

@MrLigonater

2 жыл бұрын

I think that’s one reason why I enjoyed Song of Blades and heroes so much, you had a chance to create whatever you wanted theme-wise, but it was condensed in a few fairly small books, so you could have the joy of list building, without the usual faction or theme constraints, and the game was so simple and elegant, it was pretty hard to break the game. Especially since many of the special rules were pretty situational.

@TheClassicWorld

Жыл бұрын

Although, isn't 'Communist Viking' an oxymoron? I assume you just mean, 'communal-driven Vikings'? Or, either, 'violent crazy people'... that kind of works. Actually, a blend of those two is literally what most tribes used to be, at least pre-Rome (the Germanic tribes are a good example, in general). P.S. I agree with you about video game vs. board games. My style is more 'blended' between the two.

@stevenphilpott4294

Жыл бұрын

@@TheClassicWorld I don't know Vikings were into sharing possesions a lot were they not? Convinced a lot of people to share their wealth with them ; )

Getting your lists off the net is tantamount to buying cheat codes for video games. I get that everyone feels like if they don't, they will get beat by a net lister. This is why list building is dead. List building could still work as long as there is randomness in sinarios after the list is chosen.

Of course, list building is great if you're the company producing the exclusive miniatures for the game. The lists are like a big flashing neon sign saying "BUY OUR STUFF!!!". Removes +2 helmet of cynicism.

@RuleofCarnage

Жыл бұрын

Exclusive minis are a weird concept generally in my opinion, frankly I can always play using whatever I like. It is worrying when there is a sense that the sales of miniatures is pushing list writing concerns.

@steveholmes11

Жыл бұрын

@@RuleofCarnage That's the natural rule writers concern. However, most of the "big dogs" of the industry work on a "boxed set" model, with the rules and the figures for the rules coming in a starter pack. Codices and power creep extra models then supplement the successful product lines. At least one - we know who - required only their minis and paint at official tournaments. Wind the clock back far enough and you see the opposite effect. WRG Ancients dominated the historical scene, manufacturers like Essex Miniatures released figures to match the figures described in the lists.

@RuleofCarnage

Жыл бұрын

@@steveholmes11 Sure, though of course a starter set is quite independent from starter sets since if you're buying the models and rules in a single passage the list writing can't drive the purchase of miniatures. Short of tournaments and games with quite specific products like X-wing though, I have enough minis for every game I'll ever need to play so I'm pretty hard to sell a mini to because of list building drives at this point.

good vid. plz learn to green screen, thoug.

@RuleofCarnage

Жыл бұрын

Pretty sure this was back before either of us actually had green screens.

@dRatteb

Жыл бұрын

@@RuleofCarnage the outlines are breaking even in your most recent videos. It's not the end of the world since i muche more interseted in what you are saying but still.