One thing that's amazing is how serious, intellectual Catholics who study medieval and ancient philosophy (and are genuinely intelligent) will also be like "latin mass churches have a lot of vitality, therefore if only we made all churches latin mass, then millenials would flock back to the church." As if they really cannot understand how fallacious this argument is.

Aww, come on. The tridentine mass is not that bad. It has a nice chill and meditative aspect to it that I often find myself enjoying. But Hart has a point on this implicit desire for christian triumphalism in the rescue of baroque Catholicism, something I also notice among protestants trying to resuscitate Calvinist Geneva in their churches and communities.

We cannot be expected to be impressed by religious arguments that have no regard for great art.

I have seen russian orthodox masses. And you can easily watch on youtube all the pomp, the most elaborate garments of the priests and acolytes and the ceremonial stuff. Therefore I have great difficulties to follow Hart's dismissal of the tridentine mass. And what about the stile or the behaviour of all the orthodox bishops and metropolits? Don't or didn't they always behave like princes? I guess Hart doesn't like that either. But it belongs to the orthodoy tradition just the same.

@matrixnorm6672

Жыл бұрын

Elaborate garments of the priests are often criticized by members of Russian orthodox church. So nothing wrong with Hart's attitude. Form and essence should be in fine balance. On a surface Orthodox church in Russia was in top shape in late 19th early 20th century but it was barren of spiritual content. Great saints of 19th century wrote about that.

Cardinal Burke is not the alternative to Marty Haugen. Understandable but tragic nonetheless. It's a great grief to me that my fellow Catholic priests in the main are blind to the anagogically blissful vision of DBH.

As an Orthodox who spent 4 years in boarding schools run by Catholic nuns, where I was required to attend the weekly mass, I *love* the post-Vatican II Catholic mass and greatly prefer it to Orthodox liturgy which is about as meaningful to me as the Latin mass is to the vast majority of Catholics. Some Protestant services, which I've also attended, are lovely, too (especially the Anglican ones).

@Volaer1

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah, ironically the post-Vatican mass is more traditional, not in its form, but rather in its meaning - a community of believers gathering around the table of the Eucharist. That is what the mass was originally meant to be.

@JohnCenaFan6298

2 жыл бұрын

It lacks more of the spirituality u can get from a latin mass.

@yelenaangeleski3354

2 жыл бұрын

@@JohnCenaFan6298 Nah. I find no spirituality in the Latin mass, just pomp and circumstance, quite contrary to the spirit of what Christ taught and stood for.

This argument is basically summed up in the Bible by Judas : "That perfume was worth a full year's pay. It should have been sold, and the money should have been given to the poor people"

Dripping with contempt - and perhaps he is right. If you want apostolic simplicity go to a mosque.

@PRASANTHTHOMAS-hx3nh

Ай бұрын

Visit any Mosque in the Middle East? It's the opposite of Simplicity

I'm old enough to remember pre-Vatican II Catholicism, the Tridentine Mass was about as spiritual as watching a TV show in a language you don't get, only without any action to clue you into what was being said. It was awful. The vernacular mass was absolutely better, especially before Benedict screwed it up. JPII and Benedict are two or the worst modern Popes, the cannonization of JPII is a scandal.

@anthonymccarthy4164

4 жыл бұрын

@Agnes Philomena Where in scripture does it ever talk about Jesus or Paul or John the Baptist, or Peter, or James or any of the First Testament Prophets turning their back on the people they were addressing or ministering to. I don't see where Jesus turned his back on the people present at the Last Supper, the earliest descriptions of the liturgy seem to make the presider turning his back on the congregation impossible to believe. I can only guess that you're too young to remember the pre-Vatican II mass which was far more of a superficial show which virtually no one understood, sometimes, I'm prepared to bet, not the priest who was reading the words and making the sounds and gestures. The Latin Mass was an abomination. The Mass is a prayer, God doesn't need to understand our prayers, THE PEOPLE need to understand them, they need to hear them and participate in them. I have no doubt that John XXIII was a better pope than the morally and pastorally disastrous JPII and Benedict XVI. I don't think your reading of what I said demonstrates much in the way of logic.

@anthonymccarthy4164

4 жыл бұрын

@Agnes Philomena Oh, I'm sure that would come as a surprise to those who say that the practice of the Eucharist comes from the Last Supper, that scripture is why Women can't be ordained, etc. There is no evidence that the earliest liturgies of Christianity had a presider turning his back on The People of the Church. You haven't said so I guess that you are too young to remember the period of the Latin mass which I'm old enough to remember well. It was an abysmal confusion, not an elucidation or an act of worship. I was a clerical sin of elitist mystification of what should have been understood. Conservatives want to cover up the Gospel of Jesus, the Law and the Prophets because it is economically radical and egalitarian. Their devotion to turning the mass into a mystery instead of worship is a cover up of that radicalism.

@anthonymccarthy4164

4 жыл бұрын

@Agnes Philomena You are clearly a dishonest person whose invective is delivered in seemingly mild language but which is only a cover for your attempt to lie. The accommodation of the Church with the banking and investment industry happened during the most corrupt period of the Church's history, it has, rightly, resulted in scandal after scandal such as those which surrounded the papacy of John Paul II and which characterizes the neo-integralist Catholic right that DBH rightly notes wants the trappings of baroque Catholicism without any residuum of Christianity to it. You haven't said that you are old enough to remember the time of the Latin mass so you have no real knowledge of what a sacrilegious farce it devolved into just about every week in every parish for a majority of those who attended. I remember looking down from the choir loft to see people in the congregation, the pietistic ones fiddling with rosaries, most of them doing everything from fidgeting to reading things other than their missal. That is when it wasn't a full-on floor show of a badly composed oratorio in a foreign language with absurd Raymond Burke 'sof Hollywood costuming and incense. It was a religious travesty. I think you should concentrate on getting involved with community theater and leave the serious matter of the liturgy and Christianity to those who take it seriously.

@anthonymccarthy4164

4 жыл бұрын

By the way, your adoption of the name of two likely mythical saints, one a product of the late baroque Catholic decadence, highly disputed third rate archaeology and the lunatic hallucinations of a very likely mentally ill nun is telling.

@anthonymccarthy4164

4 жыл бұрын

@Agnes Philomena Meh!