Fun fact: if counter spell is counter spelled 6 times in a round, it becomes an antimagic zone - true story ;)

@TheDungeonCoach

4 жыл бұрын

Sam Chafin id sign off on that mechanic!!! So much countering lol!!

“Cantrips not gonna turn the tide of battle” Warlock: do I mean nothing to you!?!

@TheDungeonCoach

4 жыл бұрын

Charles Koontz hahaha literally laughed at that one! Sorry warlocks!! 😆

@kertisjones2092

4 жыл бұрын

@@TheDungeonCoach Great incentive to not counter one of the Warlock's 2 spells!

@TheDungeonCoach

4 жыл бұрын

Kertis Jones hahahahahaha O God! That cracked me up too! Poor warlocks!!

@Dragoon876

4 жыл бұрын

*Wizard scoffing at the warlock* "What *do* you even mean, you powerless pawn?" =P

@adriangil8682

4 жыл бұрын

yeah the changes are awesome but i was just thinking of that. My friend has a blaster warlock, and I would rather counterspell that dangerous 3d10+3d6+15 eldritch blast over a fireball hahaha and that wouldn't work with this system, cause he could just... cast it again? still, very nice fix :D

*passes DM a note* "I'm going to roll a perform check to pretend to cast a spell, attempting to draw their counter spell"

@TheDungeonCoach

4 жыл бұрын

Mike DePaul omg... that would be amazing !!! My jaw literally dropped when I read that lol

@CooperAATE

3 жыл бұрын

I believe it only activates if a spell is cast... I'd rule that a no

@GlacialScion

3 жыл бұрын

@@CooperAATE Why?

@Koebalt

3 жыл бұрын

@@TheDungeonCoach roll performance check

@wilhohanzo

3 жыл бұрын

@@CooperAATE That's a cool idea for a spell. Something like faking magic with a specific magic.

True resurrection is a counter to power word kill, just sometimes delayed by several years.

@TheDungeonCoach

4 жыл бұрын

Isambardify hahahah DUDE that would be epic to cast that as a counter!!! But your comment made me laugh lol, so thanks for that!

A player of mine just had a pretty interesting and simple idea which I liked. Spellcaster begins counterspelling by casting the spell at 3rd level. But his counterspelling energy collides with the other spellcaster and they begin a contest of wills. In order they can choose to increase the potancy of their spell by as many spell levels as they wish (must have that slot free). Only the final spell slot is consumed. You could make it work as normal otherwise or something else. To be clear this means that: - Enemy casts 6th level spell - Player casts counterspell - gm "The spell is more powerful than yours what do you do?" - player "I pour more of my magic into it, instead of the 3rd level slot im going to use a 7th level slot" - and so on

@TheDungeonCoach

4 жыл бұрын

Oudwin I played around with that as well to reactively AMP your own magic! That’s super cool too! Love it!

I don’t know, I love the idea of upcasting counterspell. That’s the wizard using one of their precious upper level reserves of magic to fight off a big attack. I say go for it!!

Also, instead of getting a "free cantrip" out of the deal, consider making a specific pseudo-cantrip called Backlash that deals 1d8 psychic damage on a ranged spell attack against the counterspeller. The damage scales as a regular cantrip up to 4d8 at level 17. This keeps the focus on the spell duel instead of letting the caster redirect damage at a different target.

@TheDungeonCoach

4 жыл бұрын

Steve Peters that’s sweet! Casters grousing on Spell duels would use that!! That’s brilliant!!!

@wolfgaidin

3 жыл бұрын

I love this idea, but I think I'd change the damage type to force, since that would affect more monster casters, as it's the least resisted/immune damage type, and I see that as a balance issue to keep it nearly as viably useful for PCs. It also makes thematic sense since in 5E force damage is defined as "pure magical energy focused into a damaging form" and that seems a reasonable manifestation of colliding magical energies as a "Backlash". Thanks for the idea!

@criticalmasterpiece6706

Жыл бұрын

I love this idea. A backlash of energy, and maybe a small tweak, have it affect the one counter-spelling (targeting its weakest attribute) such as if it is immune to force damage, but not psychic, have it be the psychic. If it is the reverse, have it be force. This battling of mages reminds me of the scene in Big Trouble in Little China, so much fun.

Literally, I got shivers down my spine when you said make counter spell more epic then ever, such as, "What if you could counter spell fireball with cone of cold." That sentence alone got me so freaking excited to start trying my hand at home brewing spells in a manner that made sense, and was ultimately more capable of lending itself to the narrative and vision of the world.

For the difference in spell levels you could just add the spells level to the total roll rather than having to worry about the difference. For example in the level 3 spell vs the level 6 spell case, just adding +3 to the level 3 spell's roll and +6 to the level 6 spell's roll would work the same mathematically instead of adding and subtracting as there is still a +3 difference in bonus gained (for the case where you feel the difference in levels should be 2 rather than one, just rule that you add double the spell level to the total roll, so in this case level 3 will be +6 and level 6 will be +12). Saves some of the mystery as well as asking what level the spell being cast is and comparing them. Also the wild magic idea sounds neat and thematic! As does a harry potter magic battle of sorts, it seems really interesting, but it feels a little too convoluted for what I would use personally. It would be interesting in initiative-less games where everyone decides what they are doing and all events play out at the same time (not that I have played in one of these mind you lol). If two casters were to cast similar spells at each other they would try to cancel each other out and only the more powerful one lands or they both fail (maybe dependent on a roll or something). Regardless good and interesting video :)

@TheDungeonCoach

4 жыл бұрын

Ninja Medic oooooo wow! The math of that speaks to me!! They just add their spell level and it’s done! That’s so clean!!

@optimus2200

3 жыл бұрын

thats so fast and simple I will add that to my costume rule

@TheDungeonCoach

3 жыл бұрын

Ahmed Yassin I’m adding it to mine too lol!

I would make two slight amendments: “The target spell must have a casting time of 1 action OR LONGER” so that it can be used against spells with ct one minute, ten minutes etc. And also, with regards to the level difference modifier, I think it would be clearer if you phrase it as “each caster makes a spellcasting ability check with an added bonus equal to the spell slot they are expending” or words to that effect. This way if both the spell and the counterspell are level 3 for example, it’s effectively the same as having no added bonus.

@TheDungeonCoach

4 жыл бұрын

Francesco Piga DUDE!!! I totally agree with BOTH of those! That’s pretty smooth!! Wow, great and simple adjustment! Please do that with all of my videos lol! 💜

I loved the video! I just have a different look on what rules as written counterspell is. As cannon, a spellcaster is manipulating the 'Weave of Magic' to get the desired effect, ie: the spell. So basically, the caster plucks the different strings of magic, whether by word, gesture, or item. A counterspell is nothing more then someone messing with the caster's manipulation, or plucking, of the strings of magic. So a counterspell cast at a counterspell is basically knocking that hand messing with you away. So an example is that George the Wizard decides he's going to fireball a group of goblins in a cave and make goblin flambe'. He starts waving his hands and chanting, plucking the strings of magic that's always around because he can sense the 'Weave of Magic'. The goblin shaman in the clump of goblins disagree's with him casting that, and casts counterspell, moving one of the threads of magic out of place, because that will make the magic fail. George realizes what the goblin shaman is doing, imbues his hand with magic, and on the last wave before his spell is cast, knocks away the shamans attempt of causing him to fail. The result? Flambe'd goblins!

@TheDungeonCoach

4 жыл бұрын

lordamnesia that... was the most beautiful description of how you could Counterspell a Counterspell... my god man, I think I tested up a little! But seriously that’s a great lore reason to allow it! But I still don’t think a Counterspell we watching it happen could react fast enough to see it I see your explanation for the target that’s FEELS their weave being tampered with, but not a bystander. But again maybe that’s the coach in me lol

Holy hell spell duels sound absolutely fantastic. I can't wait to try it

@TheDungeonCoach

4 жыл бұрын

Joseph Dellavecchia let me know bro!!!

@tyler1673

2 жыл бұрын

Only issue comes when you consider absorb elements and how to keep it relevant. Can you use absorb elements as your spell duel cast and gain the benefits of both?

@josephdellavecchia7828

2 жыл бұрын

@@tyler1673 it's an abjuration spell, so it's already protective in nature. Abjurations spells really aren't offensive enough to be used in sepll duels. If you cast it as your main action and you can still you use reaction to cast in the duel and it would protect you from any residual damage but that is 2 spells to burn to beat one and plans for failure. Better to use a spell to guarantee victory and save the spell slot

Here's my homebrew version of counterspell: Identifying a spell when it is cast Using your reaction, you can make an Arcana check to identify a spell someone is currently casting. Difficulty Checks: - 8 + lvl - You identify the school - 12 + lvl - You identify the level - 15 + lvl - You identify the spell If the spell is cast as a class spell and the character is a member of that class, the check is made with advantage. Ex: Identifying that fireball it cast requires an Arcana check of 11 to know its school, 14 for the level, 18 to know it's a fireball spell. Counterspell You can cast counterspell after identifying a spell in the same reaction.

@TheDungeonCoach

4 жыл бұрын

Jeremy that’s a VERY flushed out recognition system! Great stuff!!

@jamescampbell2353

2 жыл бұрын

This is going in my strixhaven campaign, but I’m going to hand out free identification for the spells each player uses the most; shield, silvery barbs, inflict wounds...

I think the final spell dueling rules would be awesome. I think your little note to self about it being a feat would be my preferred method. It might even be a series of feats that specialise in different schools of magic. The evocation Spell duellist feat might be something like Spell Duellist (Evocation) When another creature attempts to cast an evocation spell within 60 ft of you, you may try to overpower their spell with one of your own. As a reaction you may cast an evocation Spell with a casting time of 1 action and roll the damage that your spell would inflict on the target. If the amount of damage you roll is equal to or higher than total damage inflicted by the opposing spell, the opposing spell is nullified. If the damage you roll is less than the total damage inflicted by the opposing spell you reduce the damage that spell would cause by an amount equal to the total damage you rolled.

One thing I'd add is that any OTHER casters that happen to be standing around can throw their hat into the ring for the spell duel as well! How awesome would it be for a whole party of casters working together to overpower the lich!

@TheDungeonCoach

4 жыл бұрын

Kertis Jones AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH 😱😱😱😱😱😱😱🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯 WHY DID I NEVER THINK OF THAT!?!? Damn that’s epic!!

@demonprinceofirony931

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah, this is the main reason I would not want to take away being able to counter, counter spell but there are lots of ways to get this effect like a combo spell mechanic and giving advantage or disadvantage for assist actions. I may even give multiple options for example a fighter trying to distract one caster while another caster adds magical energy to one of them in the form of more spell slots. My only issue is that at some point this starts to becomes too bulky.

@johnsikking4891

3 жыл бұрын

Maybe they would help each in either over powering a counter sell or removing the spell block (counterspell). Maybe adding in your proficiency bonus or some such

Here's a variant for you: Rather than trying to figure out the difference in spell levels on the fly, just state that each caster adds the level of their spell to their spellcasting ability check.

@ERGSunshine

3 жыл бұрын

And if you need to maintain the idea that the lower-leveled spell gets a penalty, each caster adding twice their spell level will do that. (+3 vs -3 == +12 vs +6)

Imagine if you got to use your reaction to reduce the effectiveness of a spell. Wizard goes to cast fireball. Counterspeller uses their reaction to shoot a ray of frost into the fireball. You could then reduce the total dmg before saves of said fireball by the total dmg that would have been dealt by the ray of frost. It doesn’t completely ruin the casters turn and allows the counterspeller to make more uses of their reaction

I don’t think I’ve ever had a player or DM even use counter spell! xD And I’m glad you built on Jorphdan’s ideas. Great video, coach!

I've only recently got into DMing, and straight away, I realised just how right you are in this video about counterspelling counterspells. It is so annoying and really bigs things down

I have 2 homebrews at work with Counterspell, one for it specifically, and one that goes for all spells in general: As a DM I favor proficiency dice over the flat proficiency bonus, and to make higher level spells and up casting spells a little more valuable, my home brew is that if you roll the proficiency die the proficiency bonus cannot be less than the level of the spell slot used (meaning that if you upcast Fireball or counter spell, the minimum that the proficiency bonus can be - and yes that means I am adding proficiency bonus for counter spell - will go up portionally). To this end a 9th level character and a 20th level character who both have a +5 spellcasting modifier and using a level 5 spell slot would roll d20+5 + their Proficiency (min 5/max 8 vs min 5/max 12). Both have the same minimum because of the spell casting modifier and the spell slot used, but the higher level caster has a higher maximum, and therefore still has the advantage. In addition, if the Caster DID upcast that spell, then successfully countering will not automatically counter the spell, instead, it lowers the Spell Slot for each rank you beat the DC by until it lowers the Spell Slot below the base level of the spell. For example, a 20th level caster casts Fireball with a 6th level slot, while the 9th level counter caster casts Counterspell with a 5th level slot. Both roll. Caster gets 7+5 for the d20 and 2 on the Proficiency Dice, which is automatically bumped up to 6 because of the spell slot, for a total of 18; the counter caster rolls 8+5 and 8 for Proficiency, totaling 21, this lowers the Fireball back down to level 3, lowering the damage AND the DC of the Dex save the party will need to make.

This was great :D Your channel blew my homebrew mind into heaven :) then brought it down to earth so I can actually talk with my "rule lawyer " friend so we both get what we want:D

@TheDungeonCoach

2 жыл бұрын

LOVE this comment, thank you so much! High praise indeed

The thing that balances counterspell is the fact that it uses a spell slot. Casters can become incredibly OP otherwise. You got the wizard casting fireball every 5 seconds taking out your BBEG before the fighter can even get in range to do their awesome moves.

I’m a teacher in Pasadena, TX who finally dove into dnd when the pandemic began, and my God I love this game. My current party doesn’t have any Counterspell casters so I don’t have to worry about this yet, but I love diving into homebrew rules to fix problems I’ve seen in podcasts or rule contradictions. I’d have to watch this a second time to give a proper comment on all the options you provided, but something different actually comes to mind. What if Counterspell was a Feat instead of a spell? Pre req of being able to cast a spell. One use per long rest. Maybe you can use it more than once but you take a level of exhaustion for each extra use. No spell level taken into account. It would be the kind of feat you take at a higher level when you start battling more dangerous casters. It would be a defining trait of your character instead of a generic ability. It would be something you save up for just the right moment or (with exhaustion) use multiple times because the battle is so dire. I think once per day or more with increasing penalties is a good amount of Counterspell. As is, I feel like it dominates battles in a bad way.

@TheDungeonCoach

4 жыл бұрын

Eric DiMarzio if you check the spell duel section there’s a little window in the video where I have the words FEAT?? Come on the screen lol, so I’m 100% with ya! That would be epic! And that’s awesome! League City TX here! What a great way to gets started in this great game!!

Spell duels sound freaking epic! Counter spell never sat right with me this is a freaking amazing fix!!! ITS GOING IN THE CAMPAIGN!!!!

How did YOU Fix Counterspell? Do you like Spell Duels!? I want to know! 1:53 Counterspell Cons 8:40 Counterspell Pros 9:43 Homebrew Buffet 14:53 DC Counterspell Fix 17:13 Spell Duels 🐲 Become a Patron 🐉 www.patreon.com/thedungeoncoach ▶️ Dungeon Coach Homebrew Playlist 📱 kzread.info/head/PLMzshUEANAtOovJb_pr27pwLOTR3nn19g

@dragoleaf5861

4 жыл бұрын

One quick problem I've seen with the Spell Duels, as awesome as they are, is the issue of AOE. So if a Lich is about to cast Cone Of Cold on the wounded Fighter, and the Wizard near the Fighter counters that Cone Of Cold with another Cone Of Cold, wouldn't the Fighter still get absolutely destroyed, perhaps even more so, by these two spells going off on top of him? To clarify, in order for the Wizard to hit the Lich's Cone Of Cold with his own, he'd also have to place the Fighter under the AOE of his own Cone Of Cold. How would you handle this? One way I can see it could be solved is to embrace it, and force some critical thinking on the Counterspeller's side. Maybe he can't use Cone Of Cold to protect his buddy, because that'd hit him too. So instead, he casts a Level 5 Scorching Ray, the six rays of fiery energy dancing around the cowering fighter, blasting back the huge wave of freezing wind that was about to hit him. Or if the Wizard happened to be an Evocation Wizard, he could use his Sculpt Spell ability to cause his own Cone Of Cold to wrap around the Fighter, not harming him whilst it pushed back against the Lich's Cone Of Cold.

@TheDungeonCoach

4 жыл бұрын

Drago Leaf I love the ideas or throw it out there! And if you want to rule this to where there would be casualties in the middle you totally could, but I would say the wizard is trying to counterspell isn’t necessarily casting a literal kind of cold, it could be a modified version with a more narrow range that homes in specifically missing the fighter to interfere with the cone of cold before it reaches the fighter. It would be like the opposing energy to stop it. So you can either think of it as a opposing energy or altering the shape of it Great points though!!

@wolfgaidin

3 жыл бұрын

@@TheDungeonCoach have you had a chance to playtest the spell duel idea as either a system or a feat? I'm curious on how much it would affect length of combat and if it would generally lead to far fewer spells getting to be cast, since I imagine this would end up being used constantly to cancel out spells. Thanks!

@ikeillue8385

3 жыл бұрын

I know I'm late to this, and obviously this is personal opinion, but I don't see an issue with counter spelling counter spells. Here is my thought, a turn in dnd is 6 seconds long, and we know you have time for an action, and a bonus action (assuming movement is done during one of said actions). So, if we take a rough estimate, lets say that it takes 4 seconds to cast an action spell, and 2 seconds to cast a bonus action spell. Basically, my thought is, if it takes 4 seconds to conjure up a spell, its obviously much more complicated than something that only takes 2 seconds, which also means that undoing the magical weaves that are being put together, with a counterspell, is going to be more complicated, and therefore take longer. So, if it takes 4 seconds to cast an action spell, maybe it takes 2 seconds to undo the arcane weaves of that spell. However, at the same time, counterspell itself is a very simple spell, being a reaction, and requiring only somatic components. So, in the 2 seconds it takes to make the motions, undoing the magical framework of the action spell, it may literally only take a wave of the hand to undo the framework of the much simpler counterspell. Also, I personally think that winning a chain of counterspells feels epic, and even losing feels like a massive magical duel just took place (as much as can be in RAW). Anyway, thats my, admittedly pointless, rant.

@frederickcoen7862

2 жыл бұрын

I like the *concept* of the Spell Duel, opening up caster-vs-caster conflicts. My initial reaction is "the countering spell should be thematically opposite to the spell being countered"... but then I realized that mostly only applies to Evocation spells. I totally agree, now that you brought my attention to it, there isn't *time* to counterspell a counterspell. However, after watching your video a couple times, and thinking about your points... I'm more of the mind to remove countering spells at all! Or, as @wolfgaiden suggested in this subresponse, making it a feat (and/or class power). It is *awesome* when you nuke the BBEG's "kill everyone" spell... but sucks when he does it to you. And there will always be more monsters than PCs. I have an issue with the contested roll, though, because *in general* (edge cases always exist) I would not want to "waste" a 3rd level spell slot on a 50/50 chance of success. I'd rather use that Reaction to Absorb Elements on *his* Fireball, and then Fireball him right back. It gets worse when you incorporate Spell Duel rules, because the BBEG is generally higher level than the PCs... it would suck even harder when he counters my Fireball with his Burning Hands, and wins the roll because his Proficiency Bonus is 2pts higher than mine, and he *knows* Fireball, so he actually is +1 on the roll! IMC, prior to watching your video and having all these thoughts, Counterspell worked like this: Spend your reaction. Make an Arcana check to ID the opponent's spell (modifiers for school, arcane/divine, knowing spell, etc, and having degrees of success); then decide to cast Counterspell or not. Either way, your Reaction is spent, but you might choose not to counter a cantrip - or you might decide that it's time to pump up your Counterspell's power because that incoming spell is Slay Living!

Dude love your stuff! The tie might be my favorite part of this video. Keep up the good work and I'll keep sharing with my dm friends.

@TheDungeonCoach

4 жыл бұрын

David Couturier the tie is so cool!!! Spells clashing mid air! Glad your on board with the crazy lol thanks man

Fantastic idea! I love the fix you propose. Making sure your turn isn't entirely nullified is a huge aspect of it, finally a good fix for that here.

@TheDungeonCoach

4 жыл бұрын

Nick Pierson just helps take the edge off! 👍🏼 thanks man!

I never realized there were issues with counterspell out there, mostly cause it's very rarely used in the games I play... But it still something to look into to make the game more fun for all at the table... Thanks DC

@Katosepe

4 жыл бұрын

I haven't encountered issues either but I can definitely see it sucking if DM counterspells a bunch. Spellcasting players would feel pretty frustrated, I'd think. While it can obviously be "fixed" by just having the DM not counterspell, it's not really a great ruleset to have something the DM just doesn't use because it feels bad, you know?

Thanks!this video really helps. You've inspired me to home brew up some rules to fix what I find is a glaring problem in 5e.

@TheDungeonCoach

4 жыл бұрын

broke_AF_ Games awesome! YES thanks for that! That’s my goal here! Inspire some Homebrew!

Holy crap I love this spell dueling system. It is now part of my game. I have always used the cantrip after your spell is countered rule just so the players feel like they did something useful. Another rule I use is the 1/3rd rule. On your bonus action you can use a cantrip sure. But once you get to a higher level you can use those spells you are starting to over look. Once you get to cast 4th level spells you can start to use 1st or cantrip. When you get to cast 7th as your bonus action you can cast 2red, 1st, or cantrip. The last change I make is the metamagic now is as part of your action. This gives a little bit back to the sorcerer who is all magic

@TheDungeonCoach

4 жыл бұрын

Chris Kaschafsky dude... not only did I have a rule that you use... but YOU have a rule that I use!! That’s so cool! I do something the same if not similar! Thank you for the comment 😆

What I'd really like to see, and I've been working on a bit, is a spell system that doesn't need counterspells in the first place. Instead, it would give some existing spells a reaction component that can give a similar result. For instance, Mirror Image is an action spell that creates 3 duplicates; in this system, it could also be cast as a reaction, but when cast this way only creates a single image for a guaranteed miss of an attack or spell that only targets you. It's not as strong as the action use, but it now acts as a hard counterspell for any spell that only targets you. Other ideas include: - Fireball (etc.) has a rider that it can be cast as a reaction to counter any Ice spell of a lower level than itself - Banishment can be used as a reaction to counter any spell that conjures something from another plane (summoning spells, Grease, etc.) There would need to be a lot of work done to categorize many of the spells, but I think it would be a really cool way to make countering spells feel more balanced. It would also give Wizards a fun choice -- do you want to pick the spells that are most powerful themselves, or spells that are less powerful but counter some of the more powerful spells?

@TheDungeonCoach

4 жыл бұрын

Nathaniel Soule dude... that’s taking the thoughts I have to the next level!!! I am 100% with you on that! Wow that’s so cool!!! Banish conjuration spells... WOW!! So cool

@jelte3754

4 жыл бұрын

Cool! I like to concept! Maybe you can link it to spells of a certain school, (damage type, condition) and/or level? This way it isn't necessary to take the exact spells that you picked (which would all be boosted, resulting in power creep), but keep the doors open for all sorts of picks and builds. Please let us know when you've made some progress!

@nathanielsoule8067

4 жыл бұрын

@@jelte3754 I definitely want to avoid having it link to school, as that just starts to play just like it is (as long as you have the right school prepared, it just counters it). This would be a totally ground-up system, so no power creep since there's nothing to compare it to. My thought is that there would be a sort of "Tier 1" of spells that are the most powerful but only can do that one thing, and then a "Tier 2" of spells that are slightly weaker at base but can counter or hinder spells. This way there's a choice spellcasters have to make about whether they want the more powerful spells or they want the utility of secondary effects. I do think I want to keep it as those specific spells though, so that you have to make specific choices, but there will probably be overlap. For instance, Updated Fireball can counter Cold spells, while Updated Mirror Image can counter single target spells; they can both counter a single target cold spell, so you can pick one or the other if that's your goal.

@TheDungeonCoach

4 жыл бұрын

Man y’all are sparkin some great ideas here!

@frederickcoen7862

2 жыл бұрын

I like this idea. It's similar to PF2's spell system, and a *lot* of work.... I'd love to see how this worked out when you're done! (and you've played with it)!

I really like what we do at my table. If a spell goes off and it gets counterspelled that counterspell can be counterspelled. When all reactions are done we go up the chain to see how it's resolved. Nothing like a yugioh esque moment of you activated my trap card!

Here's my (slight) variation of your counterspell. Pre-Casting Order of operations: 1. Caster (GM or Player) verbally declares the spell they are casting and at what level. 2. Anyone may verbally declare they are casting Counterspell, and at what level. Multiple people may cast counterspell (including in support of the original caster). 3. The two groups of casters alternate increasing the level in which they are casting their respective spells (by however much they wish) until one group decides to not increase their spell level. Counterspell Make a contested spell ability check roll for each side + proficiency bonus to determine if the counterspell succeeds. • If there are multiple casters on a given side: choose the highest of the proficiency bonuses, and give advantage to the roll. • The appropriate side adds +2 for each level they cast their spell above the opponent’s. In the event of multiple casters on a side, compare each spell on the given side to the highest level spell on the opposing side and add the +2 bonus accordingly. • Rolling a nat 1 automatically makes you lose the contest. If you both rolled a nat 1, the counterspell fails. • Rolling a nat 20 does not provide any bonus. • In the event of tie results, reroll the contest.

Hey I absolutely love the spell duel idea, if my players enjoy the idea would you mind us testing it in our streamed games? We love our homebrew rules! Great work!

@TheDungeonCoach

4 жыл бұрын

1in20 dude YES! Use the crap out of this or anything else I do I’d LOVE to hear back how it went too!

@1in20ttg

4 жыл бұрын

@@TheDungeonCoach ofcourse ill let you know

I really enjoy the AOE overlapping thing, because it opens up the idea that you can selectively contest spells. BBEG is casting mass Suggestion and you only have command? Well, at least you can save one person. Choose wisely

I'm going to use the mechanic for allowing retention of action after being on the receiving end of Counterspell. I think that's enough to separate the spell from the action economy enough to focus on it being about spell slot expenditure as a resource and denial of tactical timing. I'm also throwing in the familiarity mechanic for fun. Very good video for anyone trying to live their best Counterspell life. I appreciate the bulk buffet of options you presented.

@TheDungeonCoach

4 жыл бұрын

Jordan Fultz I love the line about “live their best Counterspell life” that’s exactly it! I love your version and totally see it!

I was re-watching this to get some ideas for my current group and the idea you had at the end struck a chord. I remember back in 2nd edition that schools of magic had two opposites that if you become a specalist in one school, you couldn't take spells from the other two. I think this would have intriguing possibilities for counterspell.

You sir have never played blue in MTG, counterspell is awesome! Especially when you counterspell a counterspell.

@TheDungeonCoach

4 жыл бұрын

Jeremy hahah hey! Card games are different!! 💜

It's weird...to watch a person you know is going to get huge before it has happened. You're doing killer stuff DC, thanks for all the vids!

Something I used to do for counterspell (both PCs and NPCs): The counterspeller had to make a check using their spell attack modifier (with a +2 if the spell is known) versus a DC10+spell level+spellcasters spellcasting ability mod to be able to know the exact level of the spell being cast - or - Cast counterspell at 3rd level/their highest available spell slot Which tbf worked quite well. I do like your "can still use a cantrip" idea-the magic user still has grasp of that sliver of magic left over a they feel that fireball slip from their fingers

Just thinking out loud on the cone of cold versus fireball, I’d kinda like the damage outputs cancel each other out. Meaning a 8d6 fireball would be cast and the damage calculated, if countered by a cone of cold, the cone of cold damage would be calculated and whichever spell has more damage would over power the other and that residual damage would be the result. This sort of bakes in using the higher spell levels to counter a spell and indirectly bakes in caster strength

I identify as homebrew fluid and this video has made me very happy

I love love love all the fix vids!! Thanks for all the great content, dude!

@TheDungeonCoach

4 жыл бұрын

Paul Cave PAUL!!! Hey man! Thanks dude, gotta keep things fresh!!!

Another solid video by The Dungeon Coach! Counterspell has always felt like 'The Price is Right' music cue when the contestant loses the game and instead should feel like Dumbeldore vs. Voldemort in the Ministry of Magic. The mechanic change of Counterspell being a contest... check instead of the RAW whomp whomp method is a great improvement and the addition of a wild magic surge on a tie makes perfect sense as all that energy has to go somewhere. Note to self: find that 300 wild magic table you mentioned!

Your channel is so undervalued, you deserve more subscribers! Your ideas are truly inspiring! As concern the variant rule "Spell duels", I would lift the obligation of the spells being within the same school of magic "when the DM deems it appropriate": I would love to see the Cleric counterspelling the Power Word Kill (enchantment school, 1 action) of the evil lich with a Revivify (necromancy school, 1 action) spell.

Ive just learned about you. This is the sort of thing I look for in homebrews. This is great. I want to run a Strixhaven campaign, and their wizard duel mechanics... leave much to be desired

Great Vid. solid fixes tot he counterspell. Glad i got to watch it on first airing. Thanks again.

@TheDungeonCoach

4 жыл бұрын

Akashambatwa Miller glad to have ya in the convo! Thanks for coming by!

Cool. My home brew uses a DnD variant from the 80s called The Arcanum. In that system there are no spells equivalent to Dispel Magic, Counterspell, and other such spells. To dispel a spell you must cast a spell the effect of which is "counter" to the spell you want to dispel, so for example if a doorway has a Rune of Pain cast on it (you get the idea: someone walks through the door they take pain damage) a cleric could cast a healing spell to attempt a counter. Now this is not a duel situation. I have ideas similar to yours, but the action economy is constructed differently. Anyway, great video!

I wasn't on board with spell duel until I realized you negate the spell only, instead of having your spell work on the target so I'm totally on board with this! And it's super cool because all casters can do this, which makes it feel more like a real time magic battle, instead of laggy lol. This also has the downside of making it really easy to burn your slots, but that's manageable and fun in its own way! I'm gonna bring this up to my players, but they never fully read their spells so I doubt they know what school they are xP

@TheDungeonCoach

4 жыл бұрын

Francisco Tapia Hahahaha you could take out the school of magic thing (I would) but have it just be creative choices they can come up with and you be the judge of it works or not!

@xicarus8141

4 жыл бұрын

@@TheDungeonCoach Yup, that's what I'll do. As long as they can describe how their spell negates the other spell (I've thinking about the Dumbledore vs. Voldemort scene for the spell duel).

@TheDungeonCoach

4 жыл бұрын

Francisco Tapia yes!!! That’s why I ncluded that clip in there haha!

I've opened the document. I see some problems though. Bonus action casting with sorcery metamagic makes counterspell useless? Kind of undervalues subtle spell and makes quicken spell too good. The fact that it can't be upcast makes it so you will have a -6 to your counterspell check against a level 9 spell. That's kind of harsh, though you can have enhance ability, foresight etc (but so can the caster). Casting time clarification disallows extended spell? (RAW)

@TheDungeonCoach

4 жыл бұрын

Andrew Panfilov Subtle spell I’d say is 100% unaffected, you still get all the benefits, how are you saying it’s nerfed? extended spell doubles the duration of the spell not the duration of the cast time of the spell, so no worries there 👌🏼 And quicken spell being broken? I think sorcerers could use some love so the fact that their magic is harder to counter... I think that’s bad ass! And a 9th Level Spell (your largest most powerful thing you can do) SHOULD have a -6 to the spell, but for my rule it would be a -6 to the counterspellers roll and a +6 to the casters roll so a 12 point difference, which I love!!! Good luck stopping big time spells, and if you do?! How epic is that!? Again just me though!

@buttponcho101

4 жыл бұрын

@@TheDungeonCoach Hm. Well yeh it's not a direct nerf (to subtle spell), but it seems to me like quicken spell's main use becomes avoiding counterspell. The more I think about it... kind of makes sense thematically, so it's okay ^_^ Extended spell I mistook for Distant Spell, my mistake (as in a reaction within 60 feet would not work with distant spell's double range thing). But it's only RAW this way, and you would always rule it to work in any actual situation, so that's nitpicking on my part. Wouldn't it be better to make a spell made for stronger spellcasters to actually counter high level stuff more reliably? As in Major Counterspell (level 7) or something. Someone equally great should be able to stop a massive spellcaster from ruining their day, imo, otherwise this becomes a game of higher initiative decides all (which it already kind of is :P). I like your rule for the fact that a 5th level spellcaster has a really tough time ruining a meteor swarm, which is real good. Waiting for the actual video to drop ^_^

@TheDungeonCoach

4 жыл бұрын

Andrew Panfilov dude I have absolutely loved your comments! You just blew my mind with extended spell, a sorcerer could snipe counterspell from even farther away! So cool! Counterspell masters! And holy crap, yes! There should absolutely be a major counterspell! Wow, what a great idea! Seriously I’d love your input, thank you!

@buttponcho101

4 жыл бұрын

@@TheDungeonCoach Thank you for making this :)

@TheDungeonCoach

4 жыл бұрын

Andrew Panfilov thanks for helping me think out of the box!

Alan, I like the spirit of this video. I am not inclined to change counterspell, just use it differently. I really like the options focus.

@TheDungeonCoach

4 жыл бұрын

How to D&D all about Homebrew! Gotta give the people options! Haha thanks man!

What I was thinking is that counterspell instantly negates a 2nd level or lower spell, for 3rd to 6th level spells then the following system applies (or you can just roll), then for 7th level and up spells then counterspell just doesn't work. Counterspell system: The user must proclaim a family of magic (divination, necromancy, evocation etc.) if the call is right then the spell gets countered. Also with this, after a spell is cast someone who sees it can make an Arcana check as a reaction to try and deduce the family of magic that the spell hails from. Another way you can nerf it is that you can't upcast the spell but when you use it then it lowers the spell level of the target by 3. Example, a 9th level spell is now cast at 6th level. If the level of the spell would be zero then the spell fails, meaning that 3rd level spells and lower would just fail. As an extra part to this you could say that counterspell fails if the targeted spell can not be cast at the resulting level. Example, you can't counterspell wish because you can't cast it at 6th level. As far as counterspelling a counterspell, I would only allow it if the person doing so held their action for it. Because then they would be anticipating it so it makes a bit more sense.

@TheDungeonCoach

4 жыл бұрын

thrasher moon wow this is great! You have a totally different system but I love all the tweaks you made and it sounds great Auto canceling 2nd and lower spells feels fine since it’s just overpowering it and reading yourself to counter and counter sounds good too!!

I think it would also be important to add that the spell used to counter must have a range that is sufficient to interfere with the other spell, so you couldn't counter a Mirror Image spell with another Mirror Image spell because it wouldn't be able to travel to the other caster and mess with the casting, but you could counter a Mirror Image with a Phantasmal Force if your target is within 60 feet (The range of phantasmal force) this also adds the component of higher level spell casters being able to out range lower level ones because higher level spells usually have bigger range. But, overall I loved the idea of Spell Duels, makes me a deep hater of counterspell actually want to re-introduce it to my 5e games :D.

@TheDungeonCoach

4 жыл бұрын

-Guy- I totally agree with that! I tried to touch on that with “overlapping” but should have used an example/ phrasing like you just did! Good call

This is cool, I like this better than the standard Counterspell, my only real change is this: If the target caster's spell fails, they can immediately cast a cantrip OF THE SAME SCHOOL OF MAGIC as part of the same action they used to cast the spell. This to me feels like they are taking the remainder of the energy they had harnessed to release a small burst of arcana.

I own DCC and I saw all this videos. The most interesting idea I found is that of spell duel. Love your spin on it and I'll try it as a feat, only those mages trained in the art of spell dueling can cast a spell as powerful as the other on a short amount of time. Thinking on adding the ability for sorcerer with quicken spell to do this too

I was waiting for this video for a long time

12:30 is exactly the system I came up with to Fix counterspell few weeks ago when a bogo of counterspells happened to my warlock. "after watching till the end so its a hypered between the revised counter spell and the spell duel" so my rule is that counter spell is a spellcasting feature rather than a spell to give it to all casters. Just few things. 0. the spell you counter with must be within the caster or the point range. you expend a spell slots of your chosing. 1. Dont add proficiency spell casting should be enough because DM monsters would mostly always have higher mod that the player and are more superficial of thier spell slots that they would always use thier higher slots rather than trying to save some for later. and dont want to step over the bard and the abjuration wizard. so a +1 per spell deference is enough. and allowing it to be up cast give the player a choice do you want to have a higher property of succeeding or not . it should be a choice . also with the bounded accuracy every +1 matter. and I believe in a tie the win always goes to the attacker because the defender is the one sitting the DC so if you get the DC you succeed. and limiting the spell to be not being up-cast ever means that a player can only counter spell a number of times thier 3rd spell slots only. I think thats not your intent but it can be read and ruled that way. 2. instead of giving too many modifier like a +2 if they can cast the spell there is an advantage and disadvantage so let us use that. but I like using that if the spell you counter with is thematically appropriate and disadvantage if not. 3. The counterspeller until the end of thier next turn cant cast anyspell other than a cantrip. That way it becomes a greater cost you shut down someone action with the price of your ablity to cast a spell. now this also give an added bonus to the half and 3/4 casters because they can use thier action to attack 2 times or more being more active in the fight while the full casters can counter spell more often and with higher slots lose thier big guns. or the warlock who can get to cast eldrich blast or attack normally. so basicly switched your rule that the caster can cast a cantrip while the counterspiller can get to use thier action to cast normally. I feel this would be more fair and more risk reward. 4. only one counter spell can happen in a turn. that way reduce the bogo I was thinking maybe giving +2 if someone helps you gives that cool image of multiple casters trying to stop one caster but making that no one can help is also a cool idea where the magic would be too unstable and rebels other magic from effecting it. 5. dispel magic also would work similarly that its always a roll but because this is more stable magic the DC would be 0+the spell level. and you only dispel one spell because 5e dispel magic dispel all spells lower than its level and then roll for every other spell so a 3rd level dispel magic can remove all the spells on one target in one turn which is rather .... stupid. specially after fighting a monster who could didispel ple magic as a legendary action with a +10 to the roll. so you dispel one spell on the target and when you upcast it you can choose another spell for each level above the dispel magic level. making dispel magic a 2nd level for it was nerfed so making easier to get would be fair. you roll if choose a spell to dispel right you get advantage if its a spell you can cast and disadvantage if you guessed the spell wrong. but I am happy that other people think like me rather than the overwhelming trash talk I received when I shared my rules in discord XD

@TheDungeonCoach

3 жыл бұрын

Ahmed Yassin WOW we are SO similar lol! I am right there with you on EVERYTHING! Especially dispel magic too! I do the same thing!

Funny thing, I was looking at Pathfinder 1's rules for counterspell... I just find it funny that in Pathfinder 1 the answer was basically "Just don't do it." But really it was that you had to prepare to cast the same spell as the spell you are countering, meaning you had to know what you were going to counter before it comes up, and then use your turn to ready to do that. Or prepare Dispel Magic and ready to cast it. Also yes higher level spells were harder to counter spell.

It's a breath of fresh air to get a gourmet of ideas instead of a single option claiming to be the best for everyone. Thank you for the content, genuinely. I've been contemplating for years about how I'd improve Counterspell's design. I liked several of your ideas, but I especially like the idea of retaining an action to do something else when you are the victim of Counterspell. To me, the biggest problem with Counterspell is how swingy it is with the action economy, so allowing an action to be maintained is a big step in healing the game, haha. It also wouldn't feel so horrible/anti-fun to completely take away a player's turn (or the turn of the DM's favorite monster). I also like the simple bonus to Counterspell's roll when its caster knows the spell being countered. I don't know how often it'd come up, but it's a fun bonus for a spellcaster to keep in mind. In fact, it's a sliiiiight incentive to pick spells that other casters won't have so they can't stop your spells as easily.

@TheDungeonCoach

4 жыл бұрын

Flutes Loot thank you so much for that! I feel like It isn’t done enough! Especially on topics like this!! I agree and I appreciate the appreciation

@FlutesLoot

4 жыл бұрын

@@TheDungeonCoach by the way, I respect the personality and energy you have in your videos. You seem like a fun dude to play D&D with. I found out about you from the collaboration you had with Treantmonk.

@TheDungeonCoach

4 жыл бұрын

Flutes Loot wow thank you for that! I try and be myself and have fun with it! Treantmonk is an awesome dude and was super fun to collab with!

If you twist it up a bit for a slice of simplicity, let the caster's "DC" be 1d20 (or 10) + double the spell level. doing so gives roughly the same feel and lets you apply the same mechanic to Dispel Magic - tying those two similar systems together. That way, if the caster is not present (as for Dispel Magic), it's a flat 10 + double the spell level. This means you can pull both Counterspell and Dispel Magic into a class feature granted at level 5 that frees up a "spells known" slot for sorcerers and warlocks...

@TheDungeonCoach

4 жыл бұрын

Steve Peters ooooo I LOVE THAT! Especially combining Counterspell and dispell magic!

@frederickcoen7862

2 жыл бұрын

I would much rather see Counterspell being a class power (or a feat), with limited use, that doesn't use a spell slot. Then I'd be totally okay with it having a 50/50 chance of failure against an equal match. Otherwise, I'd hate spending a 3rd level (or higher) slot and just throw it away on a bad roll.

I have an idea to fix the action economy issue: Counterspell costs a reaction AND the next turn's action. The original caster also uses their action AND their reaction. Both casters are locked into the magic duel and using concentration until the counterspeller's turn. On the counterspeller's turn, the dice are finally rolled to see who wins. If either duelist concentration is interrupted, they lose immediately. Yes, this means the spell resolves on the counterspeller's turn, or maybe even a different character’s turn. I think that's fun and weird. It gives other characters a chance to scatter to avoid the spell altogether.

Great video, so glad I found you.

@TheDungeonCoach

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks for that! Welcome!

If you wanted to be able to only counter with certain damage types, or have them be at an advantage or something, you could use this: radiant vs. necrotic fire vs. cold psychic vs. psychic thunder vs. lightning acid vs. poison force vs. bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing.

Love this. Thanks!

17:27 I’d say you could cast any spell as a counter as long as you use a slot level above, the counterspell would be the same level as the original spell but you used that extra slot level to cast it as a reaction (basically the counter-spell would be the slot level -1). You can only do this with a spell that has a different element than the one you’re trying to counter, if you or the DM are uncertain of what elements could actually counter each-other, just add an extra +/- to it as you see fit (like trying to stop fireball with a rock for example) This is for damage spells only

Nice vid. Based on the buffet options presented, I came up with the following. I do think that, if a caster wants to burn a higher slot to increase their odds of the counter being successful, that should remain an option for them (that & I don't love the pure randomness of the Wild Magic Surge for this particular application, sue me). Counterspell [modified], 1 reaction, 60 ft, S, Instantaneous. You attempt to interrupt a creature in the process of casting a spell that has a casting time of 1 action or longer. Make a spellcasting ability check + PB contested by the target's spellcasting ability check + PB, with each caster adding a bonus to the roll equal to the level of spell slot they're expending. On a failure, the target's spell succeeds and takes effect. On a success, the target's spell fails and has no effect. On a tie, the target's spell fails and the DM rolls a d4 which determines the complication which immediately impacts the area (sphere) between (and encompassing) the 2 casters. On a 1, the area is effectively an Antimagic Field for 1 round. On a 2, the area is affected by Silence for 2 rounds. On a 3, a 3rd level Lightning Bolt erupts in a 5 feet wide line between the casters. On a 4, both casters are pushed 20 feet away from each other and knocked prone. At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 4th level or higher, adjust your bonus to the spellcasting ability check roll accordingly. And, the complementary cantrip I came up with to go along with the Counterspell homebrew, available to Bards, Sorcerers, Warlocks & Wizards... Backlash, 1 reaction, 60 ft, S, Instantaneous. You attempt to punish a creature who has just cast a spell. A bolt of psychic energy hurls toward the targeted spellcaster. Make a ranged spell attack against the target. On a hit, the target takes 1d4 psychic damage and the target has disadvantage on the next saving throw it makes to maintain concentration on a spell. This spell's damage increases by 1d4 when you reach 5th level (2d4), 11th level (3d4), and 17th level (4d4).

Good stuff, Coach. As usual.

@TheDungeonCoach

4 жыл бұрын

Scatter buG is this “Scatter Bug Approved” nice’ 👍🏼

love the cantrip thing. you could argue in-world that there are some spellcasting motions that are so universal as to allow you to default back into the process of casting a cantrip... like something all wizards learn as apprentices is how to defuse a spell that's about to misfire into a prestidigitation or something. sorcerer, same deal. they're unleashing supreme cosmic powers and something goes wrong? just absorb the energy and produce a faint smell of sulfur or a flower or something.

@TheDungeonCoach

4 жыл бұрын

BonadanAlloy omg... your description is SO EPIC I love that! Wow that’s how I’d describe it for sure! Wow, seriously cool!

I very nearly gave counterspell to the last dude my players fought. The reason I didn’t had to do with reasons you listed. I can’t wait to use a revamped version for the next big bad!

That's kind of interesting to say Counterspell only affects Action spells. I think that might be a way to also bully-proof Counterspell Healing word. It's a little gamey but it's kind of cool if there are a small list of spells that you cannnot counterspell. Optimisers may have fun theory crafting based on this

you earned yourself a sub, my dude. here from dungeoncraft FB page

@TheDungeonCoach

4 жыл бұрын

Oboro86 ooooo awesome! He’s a HUGE inspiration of mine too! Love how he tweaks his game! Welcome to the Crew! 💜

For the spell duel, I would just require the counterspeller to expend a spell slot or prepared spell, then give a bonus if the schools match or if the areas of effect overlap. If you can counter with the exact same spell, you get both the school and area bonus, plus an additional bonus for, idk, arcane resonance.

These ideas are actually really good

My way of dealing with CS: make it a class ability for Wizards Sorcerers and Walocks but in each case it works slightly differently. Wizard: starting at level 3, usable a number of times equal to proficiency bonus per long rest. Works as per the spell but there is no automatic success on lower level spells - they always have to roll. Sorcerer: available from level 3, costs Sorcery Points to use but reduces the SP cost of the next metamagic you use if you succeed on the ability check, reduced range Warlock: invocation you can pick from level 3, if you're successful on the check you get 5 temp hp per the level of the spell you countered. Reduced range. Usable once per short rest. What this did: removed counter-counterspell which just slows the game. Bards can no longer pick it up without multiclassing. Gave it unique flavour for the classes that use it. Other classes that got CS through domains, oaths and what have you, just get Dispel Magic instead.

I really like this. Great video. I did have a thought though. It might be a bit convoluted but I was thinking that if you had access to the quicken spell meta-magic, then you could quicken your counter-spell so that it could affect a spell with a casting time of a bouns action or reaction. As by quickening your counter-spell, you're effectively making it take less than a reaction to cast. I'm actually working on my own complete rework of how actions etc work during combat to make it feel more natural and more versatile in terms of player choice, and this works really well with that. The core premise to have each thing a character can do take a physical amount of time to do, and a character can do 6 seconds worth of things in their turn (as a round is 6 seconds). You can talk for free (as long as you aren't performing verbal components) and move up to 30 feet (a steady pace) for free, as these don't really impact your ability to do other things. In this system, any spell can be quickened as it just reduces the cast time.

At my game I or a player will declare that they are casting a spell not what the spell you are casting is, then someone can decide if they want to counterspell that spell, once you decide you don't want to counterspell it then it resolves. you can also make an arcana check to see if you recognize the spell being cast.

Some good ideas! I just ran a big ol' magic fight tonight with a coven of hags and the Party who have two spell casters. Lots of counterspelling, lol! I was kinda bummed (as you mentioned) as the hags couldn't get some of their cool spells off, but I also totally nerfed the Player's spells. But I run combat pretty quick (even with five players) and 5e lends itself to pretty fast turns without a lot of complications (which is why I like 5e), so no one was that upset. And everyone thought it ended up being a pretty epic spell battle, particularly in how I described the counterspells. No one counterspelled a counterspel (I don't think anyone even thought of that and I would have nixed that if attempted, lol). I do like the duel spell rule! Might have to try that one out on a 1 or 2 shot game. :) I also really like the idea that counterspell can't be boosted so that you are always rolling. I also like the idea you are always rolling no matter what, and that it is more a battle of wills than a simple roll against a DC! Thanks for that idea!

@TheDungeonCoach

4 жыл бұрын

Perry Grosshans thanks for that!! Love that story! And I think the biggest thing about what you said is how you described the counter spells! That’s HUGE! So great job DM!!

@perrygrosshans8537

4 жыл бұрын

@@TheDungeonCoach For sure! Yeah, its the story that makes the game, right? It definitely wasn't, "Okay I'm casting polymorph. You cast counterspell? Okay, next." It was like: DM: "The hag Baggy Nanna cackles, magic coalescing in her long fingered hands. She yells to her hag sister the Widow Groat (who is stumbling and bleeding after that attack from the monk), 'Stop being such a ninny and get up auntie!' It looks like she is going to cast polymorph on her hag sister!" Player: "No way! I summon counterspell! No telling what we'll be fighting!" DM: "You tap into the magic manifesting in the room, find the weave and unravel the spell before it can be completed. The ray of polymorph dissipates into the air harmlessly. Baggy Nanna looks at you and frowns. 'Now that wasn't nice, deary!' Looks like she's focused on you all of a sudden!" :D

@TheDungeonCoach

4 жыл бұрын

Perry Grosshans Dude!!! I was smiling ear to ear reading that entire comment! Your next level man!!

I REALLY like the spell duel idea and I have some more options to spice things up even more. My first one is completely removing counter spell, and instead giving these mechanics to dispel magic instead. This means casters must predict a spell and can hold their action to cast dispel on another caster, requiring them to need to strategise and think ahead. There can also be simple ways to get around this such as allowing the warcaster or mage killer feats to let them use their reaction instead. Another idea for spell duelling would be keeping a version of counter spell. The idea is counter spell now acts like a place holder for spell duelling and enable the caster to do so as a reaction. In order to spell duel, you must know counter spell and have it prepared, in the instance you wish you spell duel, your counter spell being prepared allows you to cast the desired spell, but it costs an extra level to cast (So if I wanted to counter a fireball with a lvl 3cone of cold I would have to use a 4th lvl spell slot to cast it at 3rd lvl). Alternatively you could require the caster to have a certain feat like mage killer or war caster or even make it it’s own new feat

Personally I’ve played with spell duels before and the only changes I would make to your version is to 1: keep counterspell around but allow it to count as all schools of magic. 2: I would allow you to counterspell cantrips because they do take an action but if the cantrip caster has their cantrip successfully countered they can still force the cantrip to work but it will cost a spell slot of the lowest level they have available.

Here’s another idea I’d like to throw out there. The components required in a spell can lightly influence the speed of the casted spell. Counterspell only required semantic components, a simple gesture. The misty step used as the example of another speedy spell requires only verbal, like a one liner or an arcane script. So the question can become this: is the hand faster than you can hear? The more components required in a spell, the easier it is to notice, the easier it is to counter. If some mage is pulling out some bat guano and sulfur while flailing his hands in the air and shouting in deep speech to cast a fireball “uhhh yeah, I better stop that!”

I always figured counter spell as using magic to unravel the energy that was weaved for a spell effect. If I were to house rule... Anyone who can cast a spell can try to counter spell as a reaction. They roll d20 plus their proficiency modifier, plus their spellcasting ability modifier, plus the level of a spell slot they expend (yes, you can expend zero). DC is the spell's caster's spell save DC, plus spell level times 2, plus an additional 2 if it is not the same kind of magic the counter speller uses (arcane or divine). Countering a counter spell considers the target counter spell to be a spell of the spell slot level expended to do the initial counter. Would need testing, but that's a rough draft.

The way we have done it in our 3.5 games (not certain if RAW or homebrew) is that you can counter spells with delaying your turn and casting either dispel magic, the same spell as the one you would counter or the spell with opposing effect and higher level than the one you are countering (cone of cold to counter fireball for example) and that has worked decently well. While I like the spell duel concept it feels like in D&D every caster has access to pretty much all schools which makes it less attractive to me. However in something like WoD mage I could think something like you being able to counter spells of the same sphere that you have access to, since every character has access to 3 out of 9 or something. Might allow Prime to counter everything and the correspondence to alter target of ranged spells tho and of course all of this with skill contest.

This don't sound like an epic spells duels, but more like a battle between accountants. In my homebrew if someone counterspell a spell, and the caster don't want to lose his spell, they start a magic duels. An energy ray originate from the casters and everybody in between get 1D6 damage and be pull aside. The casters are now in an Energy field of magic and nobody can interact with them unless is a caster. Both roll to enpower theyr ray, whoever wins push the ray against the opponent, the first who fails three rolls get the original damage of the spell or 3D8. (I hope to explain me well not in my language.)

@TheDungeonCoach

4 жыл бұрын

Mirko Rustici I think your system sounds AWESOME 👍🏼👍🏼 That’s so cool! I love the extra damage they take too! And yes I 100% understand 😄

I was just thinking about how to fix counterspell today and this is what I came up with: you have to say that you want to counterspell before even knowing what the other is casting. You're only seeing a crazy old wizard moving his hands in the air and screaming, you have no idea what he's doing, risk it or counter it. I don't feel like a fireball would be obviously a fireball since the beginning of the casting time but maybe just a second before being released, so the counterspell shouldn't know what he's casting until it's almost too late. And if you want to know what the old wizard is casting well, roll an arcana check (with advantage if you know that spell). Besides, a round of combat takes only 6 seconds, your character was in the process of doing something before you realized the wizard is casting, you have to stop what you were doing to counterspell him, so it's not like you have much time to decide. I think this also helps encourage roleplay, as whoever is casting the spell has to say something cooler than "I cast X", describing how their hands move in the air, how does the energy coalesce around them, etc. So that the other casters have time to decide whether or not they want to try to counterspell without yet knowing what it is. This goes both for players and DM. And maybe a higher-level version of the counterspell (or a feat) could work quicker and let you wait until know what the other one is casting before you counterspell it. And now something about the duel. The system I've played the most had rules for magic duels, so I thought I might just throw you some ideas. Both casters in the duel use their action to cast the spell, they roll, and whoever wins effectively casts it. Now, if it was a tight win, lets put by less than 5, it would do half damage, and full damage if its more than 5. In a tie, both spells cancel each other, but the area could have been affected in some cool way, like becoming difficult terrain.

Here's how i designed my changes to it. Make a DC 15 check (D20 + your spellcasting ability modifier), on a succesful check, you learn the general properties of the cast spell (The school of magic and any mind control, area of effect damage and such). If you know the spell being cast, the DC is lowered by 5 and on a succesful check you know what spell is being cast. After learning what the properties of the spell are, you may decide wether or not to spend a spell slot to interrupt the casting, your reaction is spent either way. After passing the aforementioned check, you gain a +2 to a skill challenge to counter it, when needed, or a +5 when you know the spell.

Awesome ideas! Wild magic surge on a tie, wtf why didn't i think of that, so awesome!!! And your buffet like approach to showing elements of the system is THE way to present these homebrew ideas! Great work man, can't wait for the next video! p.s. btw good job working with other guys and their ideas p.s.s. The video is nearly perfect but you might want to add a quick tagline to the "buffet" plate for each point as a summary (presented in table format?) at the end, i.e. "If you want underdogs like Harry to have a better chance against BBEG's like voldemort then use the +1 point difference per spell level rule or if you would rather have less of a chance that a 3rd level spell should have much chance of dispelling a meteor swarm then use the +2/spell level rule."

@TheDungeonCoach

4 жыл бұрын

Dan Armstrong Oooooon I can see that being a good way to wrap it up in the end! Good feedback! Thank you for that!!

I love this whole video.

@TheDungeonCoach

4 жыл бұрын

Ferdinand Metzger thank you! I’ve gotten a lot of flack for it so that’s really nice to hear!

Wild magic

@TheDungeonCoach

4 жыл бұрын

Olivier Rheault-Hebert gettin WILD here! 💜

Since I'm not a fan a wild magic, I'd probably replace the last line of your counterspell with "On a tie, make a contested Intelligence (Arcana) check. If the character performing the counterspell knows the spell being cast by the target they gain a +2 to this check. The winner of this check choses whether counterspell succeeds or fails." I feel that Arcana checks should be used when analyzing and countering a spell that someone is actively casting, even if it's a spell with a divine source since Arcana is the study of the mechanics of spell casting. Also, perhaps the Sorcerer who knows spellcasting innately doesn't know exactly how to counter another's casting of a spell as well as the wizard who has been studying it for years.

Excellent video chum

@TheDungeonCoach

4 жыл бұрын

Admiral Stoic Rum thanks man! **pinches cheeks**

@AdmiralStoicRum

4 жыл бұрын

@@TheDungeonCoach dawww, shucks

One way to think about it tho is that the spell has finished casting, and "counterspell" is actually ripping the spell from the air before it affects anyone, so if you think like that, it then becomes reasonable that the person being countered can counter back, with 5e turns being six seconds is weird anyway, you can move 10ft, cast bonus action spell, move 10ft, cast action spell (cantrip) then move 10ft, AND THEN even activate any "free action" abilities, i dont really see a problem with people being fairly quick with there reactions to things

Looking at both the original version and the revised, I have my own version I'd like to run by people: Counterspell (basic traits unchanged): When a creature within 60ft casts or readies a spell on their turn, you can use your reaction to interrupt that spell. Make a spell attack roll (ability modifier + proficiency), treating the AC as 10 + the level of the spell being cast. You have disadvantage on the roll if the spell being interrupted is being cast at a higher level than your Counterspell, but gain advantage if the targeted spell is a lower level. Spell level matters if it comes up (though I'd usually tell my players what level the spell will be at), but isn't a guaranteed shut-down. Also, specifying that it has to be a spell cast on someone's turn means it has to be an Action or Bonus Action (I'm fine with shutting down BA spells)

@TheDungeonCoach

4 жыл бұрын

Gigawolf1 thats a beautifully subtle but GREAT edit to the RAW, that’s awesome!

I know I'm bit late to the party.. but.. this part: "Make a spellcasting ability check contested by the target's spellcasting ability check. You both gain a +1 bonus to your check for every level you are casting your spell above your opponent's spell level, or a -1 penalty to your check for every level you are casting your spell below your opponent's spell level." it doesn't make sense, given counterspell cannot be upcasted. It will be always cast at lvl 3. The spell it counters might be cast at level 1 or level 9, but the spell level you are casting will always be the same. Somewhat cleaner formulation would be this: "Make a spellcasting ability check contested by the target's spellcasting ability check. If you are countering spell of 2nd level or lower, you gain +1 bonus to the check for each spell level below the 3rd. If you are countering a spell cast at 4th level or higher, you gain -1 penalty for each level above the 3rd." Still, it feels overcomplicated. Especially for a spell that's not going to be upcasted. So, I would approach it from different angle. Let's say the counterspell is relatively easy and effective spell. It doesn't really snuff out the magic forming into a spell, it merely prevents the magic from fully forming into a spell. In other analogy.. doesn't matter how much water is in a bucket.. if I punch a hole, the water will pour out the same. Now, while you can't prevent the spell from being dispersed, you can pour more magic in, effectively pouring more water in the leaking bucket. This brings us to changing the above into this: "Make a spellcasting ability check contested by the target's spellcasting ability check. Both you and target may, as part of this check, spend one additional spell slot, gaining +1 bonus to that check for each level of the spell slot spend in this way. You may state you are doing so before or after the roll, but before the outcome is known. " Effectively, this solution means you will see wizard duels that are partially based on luck, and partially based on who is stronger spellcaster. It doesn't matter how the spell itself is strong, only on the capabilities of the respective casters.

This channel is gonna blow up in views and subs for sure

I only just now watched this video and I'm surprised that my own homebrew counterspell is so dang similar to yours! In mine you make a spellcasting ability check contested by the target's spellcasting ability check, and the side who cast the higher level spell gets a bonus to their roll equal to twice the difference in levels. However I do think that Counterspell should be able to be upcast, both to give yourself more of a chance to counter the enemy's spell (since each spell level difference is a +10% chance of success effectively, so if you really need to stop a foe's Fireball from obliterating your party you could cast Counterspell at 5th level to give yourself a +20% chance of success) and to more easily allow epic spell duels (see Harry's Stupeficium VS Voldemort's Avada Kedavra which is basically Counterspell VS Power Word Kill).

@TheDungeonCoach

3 жыл бұрын

Mozumin I also think it’s so funny that were so similar, because I have recently just updated my rules so that you can up cast counterspell to be able to give a better modifier towards your own role! So we’re back to 100% synced up! Lol

@Mozumin

3 жыл бұрын

@@TheDungeonCoach That's crazy LMAO

I love the fixing of counter spell. I think I missed something. One part of the cons of counter spell was that the level of the caster being different didn’t matter. A level 20 wizard vs a level 5 wizard. The end fix has the spell level being different effecting (love the +1 -1 thing) but nothing for the level of the caster. I’d think a level 20 caster would be stronger than a level 5 even if they were both casting a level 3 spell.

@matthewparker9276

4 жыл бұрын

Proficiency bonus will be different.

@WeTalkDD

4 жыл бұрын

Matthew Parker yep you’re right. I forgot the +1 -1 would apply to the spell casting ability check which would already include the proficiency bonus. Thanks

@TheDungeonCoach

4 жыл бұрын

Matthew Parker you stole my comment!! 💜💜💜

@TheDungeonCoach

4 жыл бұрын

We Talk D&D what Matthew said 👌🏼😇

So heres my thought on countering a counterspell, only a 3rd party can cast that second counterspell to aid their ally cast the spell they initially started casting when the enemy sent out their 1st counterspell. This is because the 1st 2 casters are occupied by their duel. Also, the initial spellcaster who's being canceled/countered is too busy casting their regular spell & the 1st counterer is focusing their initial enemy. Essentially the 3rd caster 8s blindside Nguyen the countered, distracting him from pulling it off, this could give the ally a bonus to betting the counter, or a penalty to the 1st counterer.

@TheDungeonCoach

4 жыл бұрын

ToonEzon I can see this being cool as a way to TEAM UP to overpower a stronger caster too! That’s awesome!

@toonezon4836

4 жыл бұрын

@@TheDungeonCoach oh, thanks for the reply. I've been loving your videos since I stumbled across them. I've yet to do a game, might be putting a group together for a one shot, but I'm super April endive about it. Also when I decided to read the dmg, for some reason, the flexibility just went out the window.

@TheDungeonCoach

4 жыл бұрын

ToonEzon no bro! I got you!! You seen my 2 part DM Guide???

@toonezon4836

4 жыл бұрын

@@TheDungeonCoach I might have, are they older videos? How far back should I go to find it? Maybe it'll finally kick my butt into gear.

@TheDungeonCoach

4 жыл бұрын

ToonEzon here ya go man! Part 1! kzread.info/dash/bejne/gIBt1seOdKuverg.html I released part two right after!

I really like the idea of the spell duel system. The following is just soem thoguhts I had while listening and maybe people have already resolved these issues but if not than it is food for the homebrewing thoughts. My concern with the cone of cold example is the party's fighter who is inside the cone of cold area is now being hit by, not 1 but 2 cones of cold. The simple answer to this amy be that your caster needs to be selective with the spells that they choose to use when countering a spell. This would lead to a concern for the number of spells that players get. If a player wants to even take part in the spell duel system they would need to be thinking about choosing schools of spells when they level up or, if they are wizard, looking for spells. All and all these are minor things that can be work around.

The counterspelling counterspells that were counterspelled bit hit home so hard...

@TheDungeonCoach

4 жыл бұрын

Andrew Panfilov hahaha I didn’t pull any punches! Sorry bro! 👊🏼

Suggestion: if counterspell is used to interrupt or interfere with the energy behind the spell, a successful roll allows the counterspell to remove that level from the target spell. If it removes all of the energy.. If it removes EXTRA levels, it turns the spell back on the caster.

@TheDungeonCoach

4 жыл бұрын

William Roop that would be a super interesting mechanic to be able to reverse it. My initial draw up of this THAT was part of it, but it was just too complicated

@williamroop451

4 жыл бұрын

@@TheDungeonCoach After watching the Matrix, I always thought that it would be cool to imagine arcane (and divine) forces as the "code" and casters having the code view like Neo. When they see another caster draw the energy for the spell, an Arcane test could be made to detect the school.. A good enough success could identify the level and a near perfect success, the spell. Going off of that check, the school would allow the counterspell, the level could hint at counter level and the spell could allow the spell to be twisted... If they fail the test, it could maximize the spell effect for the caster.... If you want a spell duel, allow the caster to oppose the check.

@TheDungeonCoach

4 жыл бұрын

William Roop oooo what a great source of inspiration!!! Love it!