I heard you get +20 permanent PP in your next eu4 game if you use play.europauniversalis.com/LudietHistoria to get King of Kings for yourself! All jokes aside, it would really help the channel out massively, and I'd truly appreciate it! ✅ Part 2 - kzread.info/dash/bejne/oJl3yqWuhau-c8o.html ✅ ✅ Part 3 - kzread.info/dash/bejne/o6qrk5aBpcaslZM.html ✅ ✅ Part 4 - kzread.info/dash/bejne/nIWGj7GalLnZqM4.html ✅ ✅ Part 5 - kzread.info/dash/bejne/apanpbmQh5W2ZtY.html ✅ You get the save on DISCORD by reading the rules and interacting with the emoji to get access to the server, then go to the saves link part.

@dweeb24

7 ай бұрын

is the power projection permanent??

@hatimzeineddine8723

7 ай бұрын

20 political power isn't a lot

@almgaming186

7 ай бұрын

How tf was this comment made 2 days ago when the video came out 3 hours ago

@YuupYuuprson

7 ай бұрын

Hey Ludi i have been watching your channel for a while and I would like to please see a mikmaq native campaign

@tobiasnilsson3933

7 ай бұрын

Where did you put the save file Ludi?

A true Byzantine enjoyer I see. Now we gotta see the Roman Empire

@LudietHistoria

7 ай бұрын

Hell yeah, got 5 videos already recorded for this run, so let's see when we hit the like goal xD

@Franek-up7db

7 ай бұрын

Yes

@daddytito917

7 ай бұрын

Let’s see Paul Allen’s Roman empire

@Prankbros148

7 ай бұрын

How did you comment at both videos at the same time

@Designer-Speech7143

7 ай бұрын

2 hours and you got 4.1K already, Romanian Emperor. The people seem to want you to restore the world! @@LudietHistoria

Ah yes, the Rule 1444: If a patch exists, there's a Byzantium guide for it.

@ravenouself4181

7 ай бұрын

it's the law

If you trucebreak ottobros, it's better to not take Edirne in the first war. AI priorities 1) the same continent and region, 2) the same religion, 3) the same culture, 4) the opinion. If turkish capital stays in Europe, the game consider Ottos to be European country and in 1440-50-s there are no other muslim nation in Europe (except Granada but it will be dead in few years). So the AI against turks will be so small that your can truce break them three times and annex all of Greece, Bulgaria and Asia Minor. All ya need for that is just to leave Edirne as otto's capital (but sometimes II is smart and change its capital to Anatolia).

@LudietHistoria

7 ай бұрын

That's actually a really good point, let's get your comment some likes so others replicating the run can do better by letting ottos keep edirne!

@user-jh8xg2yg1q

7 ай бұрын

​@@LudietHistoriaalso u dont actually need to trucebreak. Ragusa is guaranteed from the start by ottomans. And u can attack ragusa right after first war to lower truce timer.

@niksan4318

7 ай бұрын

​@@user-jh8xg2yg1qExactly! Sometimes they even guarantee Serbia/Wallachia so you can attack them and get Ottos to war again. Plus, if in the first war you take Kocaeli, Bolu and Ankara instead of Kocaeli, Biga and Hudavendigar, except that you take out one more fort from the Ottos (making the war easier), you can also place your troops at Ankara and attack whichever (Karaman, Candar) the Ottos are about to attack. Then you vassalize that nation and get in a defensive war with the Ottos. Why truce break? There is no reason

@GuitarHero49432

7 ай бұрын

@@user-jh8xg2yg1q yeah but with ragusa you might also have to deal with venice right?

@SaladDongs

7 ай бұрын

I thought all of Anatolia is considered Europe. That's what it says on the mapmode. It does change from Eastern Europe to Levant subcontinent though. I'm sorry if this is just pedantic, idk all the calculations for AE are.

Paradox: Let's make an impossible start for Byzantium this time. Ludi: Let's set a new record for crushing the Ottomans in a Byzantium start.

@LudietHistoria

7 ай бұрын

yup, but to be fair they kinda helped me a lot, since they gave me the -50% merc cost and 5% discipline, that was pretty crucial, plus the imperial guard DO NOT TAKE UP LAND FORCELIMIT !!!! That means I paid basically nothing for the entire army xD

@foxdavion6865

7 ай бұрын

Well it is more of a case of Paradox wanting us to play Byzantium a certain way and use political and financial manoeuvrings to mitigate entrenched policies at that time period. Basically, you have to do what all good Emperors do when their government stands in their way - diplomacy and $$$.

@thomasmann4536

7 ай бұрын

@@foxdavion6865 bsically, you pull all the same tricks you always pull at the start when playing small nations: go over forcelimit spamming mercs and throw money at the problem that you then take back from winning the war. There's nothing inherently new or challenging about it. Only more frustration bc of some bullshit modifiers. Paradox confuses relying on RNG with difficulty.

@foxdavion6865

7 ай бұрын

@@thomasmann4536 Very true, but the devs want us to jump through hoops in this case, adding extra steps to fane gameplay. On the bright side, least 40% cost reduction means you can hire expensive good ones and not force you to take so many lones it takes 50 years to pay them all off.

@simplyafederalist

7 ай бұрын

Does it work on very hard? Most of these dont work on hard and very hard levels. You have to reatart many times to get a decent start.

I was wondering if I was gonna be able to survive as Byzantium before Ludi released a guide, but it turns out he was quicker than expected lmaoo

@LudietHistoria

7 ай бұрын

i got you fam

My cycle with Byzantium: follow to the letter two or three different guides for "can't fail" Byzantium starts; fail repeatedly over and over; wait for new patch and a new set of "can't fail" guides; continue to fail forever

@harlan7012

3 ай бұрын

I know. Makes me sad every time I play them.

Gonna be honest, I'm so disappointed in Paradox for not updating the flag of the Roman Empire tag. I really don't know why they don't replace the terrible looking low res flag that has been there for ages, when it's so easy to update. Other than that I'm very much looking forward to the DLC.

I definitely want a Trebizond mission tree in the next DLC.

@thebigflop3118

7 ай бұрын

None plays trabzon😅

@jacobcantrell82

7 ай бұрын

Komnenoi Restoration go brrrr.

@tarunyadav3567

7 ай бұрын

​@@thebigflop3118trebizond is the only correct way to play byz 😤😤

@chadpuckett80

7 ай бұрын

I was so disappointed when I found out Trebizond didn't get any updates. They are my favorite nation to play, followed by Theodoro. I hope they both get some love in the next patch.

@josephcola9662

7 ай бұрын

@chadpuckett80 any advice for a Trebizond game? Been trying to get one off the ground forever, and I keep running into a wall in the forms of the Turks and QQ. And the one time the stars lined up and I could dec on the Ottos while they were getting their asses handed to them in the Balkans, the Timurids of all people forced me to white peace.

A Balkans (including Hungary) or an HRE focused DLC would be nice imo, i love playing in the HRE and its sad that most nations don't have one

@lewisyoutube4080

7 ай бұрын

Second this. HRE DLC sounds so obviously a good idea

@ravenouself4181

7 ай бұрын

alexander's empire reborn? maybe with an easter egg that actiates if you fight a formed persia that would be a refference to the meeting between alexander and darius before the battle of gaugamela. or just reaching the location would give an event chain that would culminate in you finding alexander's tomb, you know, missions that would lead you to babylon where the culminating event fires.

@starhaven1881

7 ай бұрын

HRE already had at least one big update. Although they are running out of places to give big overhauls to. Now its really about doing touch ups and improvements So its on the cards i'm sure. At least until EU5 is on the table.

@NopeNothingD9

7 ай бұрын

HRE would be cool, America’s could really use some work imo especially South America. India would also be good

@torum6448

7 ай бұрын

Yeah, i was thinking the same a balkan dlc would be quite awesome, Hungary,Serbia,Croatia,Wallachia,Moldavia (Romania), Albania. That or a DLC that focuses on post colonial nations like the USA, Canada, Mexico etc. (maybe make them actually likely to break away from their colonial overlords) Would also be a good opportunity to fix the whack colonial system.

as a genoese i feel proud that they finally included Giovanni Giustiniani

I'm pretty sure Ludi is completely banned from Turkey after all of these Byzantine empire videos.

@LudietHistoria

7 ай бұрын

taxi drivers there hate me bro

@alparslanakyol4214

7 ай бұрын

they hate everyone except arabs, so dont take it personal@@LudietHistoria

@mirza_sever8679

7 ай бұрын

@@LudietHistoria why?

Excellent video, great use of the mechanics here. Awesome!

Despite having some reservations about the changes to Byzantium this actually looks a whole lot more fun than the earlier strat of just recruiting ships and rushing Gelibolu while the Ottomans are in Anatolia.

@juncheok8579

7 ай бұрын

You can still do this, just wait abit more until you finish building ships

one thing I've always wanted ever since the mission trees of nations started to get completely separate branches was different tabs for different non-connected parts of mission trees. something like what they did for the mission tree previews for persia would be actually perfect, since i'm having a hard time keeping up with all the missions in these newer patches due to the amount of scrolling you have to do in order to read some missions and whatnot.

Ludi: Hey guys I have a 100% no RNG strategy Also Ludi: gets a 5 siege general, which I have yet to see in my hundreds of hours playing EU IV Jokes aside, great video! :) Sometimes I feel like I gotta quit gaming but then you post another video and there I am, not only playing EU IV again but also getting the latest DLC too

Incredible video as ALWAYS Ludi, so exicted for this dlc, im gonna follow ur guide right now! Cheerss to paradox for keeping up the hard work, improving the game all the time.

Have made 43 attempts, not including restarts where i start with neg morale/diplo rep ruler which is common. Genoa rivals me every time, Venice rivals either me or the pope every time so i cant reduce the shipbuilding timer. The knights are alliable ~50% but almost always never leave Port or send troops so they dont help with holding the strait, i have seen them fight with their ships twice and both times they wouldnt join my navy. Georgia has never accepted land to enter the war and on the occasions where I got the favours they and the Ottomans had improved relations to an insurmountable point. Hungry and albania have rivalled Serbia every time so not an alliance option.

I really love the new notifications! They are so helpful!

Ludi, terrific music of Braveheart you did!

love the new notifications, great addition.

I just started playing this game and really enjoying it. Only have one DLC but plan to get more. Ludi is entertaining as well

Fantastic! Love it!

Incredible update, I love it. :)

Was waiting for this video, first person who could pull byz from chaos in eu4 is only ludi (his roman spirit makes him carry the empire)

@LudietHistoria

7 ай бұрын

it was a super fun run

@dinista272

7 ай бұрын

@@LudietHistorialudi we got 7k likes you better upload the second part

Good, good you are playing Byzantium :D will be nice to watch eating dinner. Already DLC paid for and awaiting the new DLC I finished Philippine Tiger achievement :D

@LudietHistoria

7 ай бұрын

Hope you enjoy it!

i am really so excited for this DLC! After my initital Timu->Persia/Zoroastra run... i will definetivly do custom nation->Byz run for all the flavor, but much less effort :D

Thank you Ludi, i am starting to learn my game and play on my own. My vision of EU4 was kind of different, but few days ago it clicked for me. It's more of a diplomacy, stab someone in the back kind of game, then HOI4 where you just produce and commit to the campaign. All of Paradox is about stack multipliers, but since i play from few days (installed the game tons of times trough the years, just to play - quit, play - quit, now I made Eureka and i can build upon this), the game and all it's DLC's (pirated ofc), had so many buttons that were scattered everywhere... It's insane for a newbie to get around, and it's not just 3-4 dlcs. Anyway, thanks a lot and see you in the future when you lead your armies and i govern a small province defending. but i would prefer to be on the same team. Heil from Bulgaria!

ルディさん、最高です!動画をありがとう!

It's honestly impressive you managed to do even the first war without taking a single loan. Your strat works but I always end it (the first war) with like 30 loans minimum and otto's money only repays for like 20 of them. This causes a lot of issues with inflation which costs admin points, which makes you fall back on admin tech, idea groups and coring thus hindering expansion... You were really lucky (and competent) in this run for a lot of reasons including this one

I love your style and jokes a lot, romanius maximus bro. Greetings from an ottobro from Istanbul, TR.

Ludi you absolute madlad. Great run so far, love to see you continue and restore the roman empire

Esti bun rau de tot boss. Tine-o tot asa.

Every time new content is released it renews my interest!

Awesome vid Ludi! Paradox if you are reading, mission trees for Hisn Kayfa and Trebizond please! As well as an Ayyubid formable tag for Hisn Kayfa and Saladin's Legacy.

Ludi, havent had much time in the past few months to keep fully up with youtube, but i am still waiting for that battle of varna history video! I cant see that you have finished it yet

Fantastic video

I would love to see some love for the Dutch. They rose to power during this time frame and they've received a bit here and there during other releases, but their mission tree is just clunky compared to all the rest of the great powers.

just love it. easy to follow and funny.

My feedback is a longshot but it would be very gratifying Big fan of the love Byzantium is getting Could they toss in a token Colonial nation as a nod to Third Odyssey I'm a fan of taking centuries to take back the empire, im not expecting them to make a whole dlc around it but a unique tag and/or national ideas would be that lovely bit of extra spice ontop of a DLC already shaping up to be pretty great

I knew Ludi would showcase the Byzantines.. Let's go

I just visited Georgia and I really want a Georgia video! Loved the country.

I wish you had given a little history about the Hajduks when you took them as mercenaries, I feel they are really underrated and unknown by the general public

Another great run

Ludi you better post it all todays since we already hit the like goal 😊

I'm excited for the new update!! I swear every update I'm like "new Venice or Mamluks patches blz?" and like Venice got some flavor in 1.34 so it's ridiculous that i keep going back with grabby hands BUT MAMLUKS CONTENT MAMLUKS CONTENT!

Ludi's Ottoman: attack Karaman in 1446. My Ottomans: *its years 1454, and i dont think i will be attacking anyone*

10k likes in the first day, let alone first week. That is some good progress Ludi!

I would love to see more focus on the 3 Romanian principalities and their unification into Romania. Transylvania should be a PU of Hungary as they had more autonomy just like Croatia and the Caucasus region with Georgia and Hisn Kayfa focus, maybe Crimea and the Golden Horde also would be nice to see improvements.

I am a simple man, i see Byz, I like.

RNG proof yet you got a 5 siege general lmao

Thanks Ludi. Couldn’t get the purchase link to work so have this instead

@LudietHistoria

7 ай бұрын

Oooo you are too kind! Many many thanks for this, it's much more than using the link, like 20x more, so thanks from the bottom of my heart ^^

You were quite blessed with that 5* siege general.

YES!! Summon the Diet notification!! Thanks Paradox!

I LOVE YOU LUDI❤️❤️❤️

Amazing!!

I really like this update, I think it makes Byz a lot easier. If you manage to snag an alliance with the pope, you can use the edirne claims to hop over to Naples and build up a bit before going after Ottos.

Pretty good video once again Ludi. Just for info the "oi" in emporoi is pronounced like "i" in italy

Thanks Ludi.

now that i rewatch and played byz i see u were so lucky bro

Wuhuuuuu new video !!!

@LudietHistoria

7 ай бұрын

indeed

Rome still exist in our hearts.

@LudietHistoria

7 ай бұрын

i agree

If Paradox is reading this: I really enjoy when you have content for small or challenging nations, but making them snowball super hard early on (early than the 1500s I guess) kinda makes it more boring since the challenge is not there anymore. Would love to have a constant challenge - I think Anbennar does it super well with dissasters, events, mythical conquerors, magic, and more. I am sure something like that could be implemented into EU4.

@perkalov

7 ай бұрын

A solution to the "snowball super hard" problem might be to not use every gamey tactic possible. Play a country like Holland without cheesing it. I only ever go for the meta knowleage cheesyness when trying to play countries that would otherwise be impossible. Like Byzantine that needs to snowball hard or you simply get gobbled up by the the Ottoman blob. I don't have the time to figure out thise kind of strats, so when playing "impossible" countries makes me check out someone that has time.

hmm.. maybe I'm getting super unlucky but the diplo stuff is just not working out for me :/ Genoa seems to be rivaling me every single time right at the start Albania seems to rival Serbia every time, which means I cannot ally them after allying Serbia - which then means I cannot ally the Pope :/ also I noticed that I need to wait a day for the relation bonus from religious diplomats to work, but that's not a thing in the video?

Great video, thank you, Ludi! But no matter how much i love this new patch i hate having to restart every time, i had several times whne Epirus allied with THE POPE and it's really freaking me out, i dont understand why they make me restart not just save but the whole game, i know is been here for years but damn , its so frustrating that i'd rather load your save and enjoy my game where all depends on ME not on freaking RNG!

Without doubt Timurids need some attention for the next DLC. And would love to see some more flavour for the hordes.

i think you sold your soul for this perfect situationship. i playing my 10 try rn and everytime something going not playable way

@LudietHistoria

7 ай бұрын

YOU GOT THIS ! YOU CAN DO IT! Remember, 250 ducats from serbs, sell crownlands, try to ally knights/georgia/albania and get the imperial guard mercs since they dont take up forcelimit. And do the same estates I did, THIS IS VITAL BROTHER ^^

Wow that was really cool ! This will definitely be my first campaign in this DLC. Questions to you: * Do you see a strat with no mercs ? (for challenge sake) * Couldn't you fight Ragusa and truce reset rather than trucebreak? That's what I do. I don't even truce reset. Ragusa is my go-to when I need to fight Ottomans when in truce. Feedback pro PDX 😀: * I honestly don't like the sprites for Byzantium. The units look nothing like the eastern roman infantry of the time. They look more like an alternative history revisit of the Roman Empire. I was hoping to see a change in this DLC. * No love for the north-caucus nations 😢? It's such a fascinating region, my wife is from there and it's not fun much fun to play there. * One of my favorite mission trees as of late is that of Riga. The city strategy just gives so many ideas of how to play as an OPM. The influence of these cities is unquestionable and I'd love to see more content of the sort, (including an alternative for byzantium which could embrace an single province strat. I love the work you guys are doing and great to see Ludi show us how the game features work. Thanks Ludi for this

sorry Ludi, next dlc through your channel. thanks for the guide!!!

Wow nice video, Im completely amazed by the new byzantine vassals. Did I missed something or we dont have any possible catholic path for BYZ?

10 hours after upload: Ludi, we reached the like goal, where is the next video?! We need it now! Reminds me of some kickstarter campaigns from the past

7000 done in the first 12 hours. You need to up your like goals Ludi 😂🎉

I would like to see more mechanics and missions that are focused on helping other countries. Conquest is cool, but sometimes I don't want to expand. For example, it would be cool if the Papal State had more options to help the Teutonic Order convert Eastern Europe and Asia.

thx Ludi and thx Paradox

Never seen Ludi this excited😂

I like the quality of life notifications for summon diet and upgrade center of trade but I didn’t notice if there was one for seizing crown land if not that would be awesome

Wow, you are so lucky to have those good generals or other random things in your playoffs. In every single one of them. Wow, so lucky, wow.

If you ally with Wallachia before first Ottoman war, you can actually kill Sultan Mehmet. They have mission named Impale Sultan, which give them event to kill Mehmet when they occupy Ottomans capital, Edirne. So you can easily accomplish that mission by giving control of Edirne to Wallachia. And additional effect. If Mehmet don't have heir at that time, their next ruler would have very low monarch skill, max to 3/3/3.

@TurkishZombie

7 ай бұрын

Damn i forgot that mission. Good advice.

@infaraday6862

4 ай бұрын

That's very interesting, but you would need to have 10 favors with wallachia don't you? You can't promise them land?

@Rushmoom9541

4 ай бұрын

@@infaraday6862 Wallachia almost have interest in Ottoman lands because they get claim by previous mission, The order of the Dragon. So you could call them by promising land and abandon that promise.

@infaraday6862

4 ай бұрын

@@Rushmoom9541 yes but they also have truce at game start don't they? You would have to wait or do it on the second war

That was quick bro

@LudietHistoria

7 ай бұрын

yup

I reckon like some say, Paradox should make a dlc that focuses on Americas as in Aztecs, Murica!, Mexico, Brazil, or Quebec (probably isn’t a tag) or something like that but I’d love to see Hisn Kayfa and I think circassia needs some attention some time

That Syria is looking cool, I really hope it also got its unique missions

17:38 woah! Palace Guard mercs doesn't cost forcelimit? :o

@LudietHistoria

7 ай бұрын

nope

@klockrenlol

7 ай бұрын

**STRONK**

Getting notification about diet or crowlands is fire 🔥🔥

to Ludi: great video as always. Thanks a lot. to Paradox: -Venetia and Genoa need rework similar as Lubeck. -colonization is broken for the big 4. Mechanics need to change. Tordesillas is enough, colonies should not expand by themselves, as they were not allowed historically. -all mercs should have traits and somehow size and even composition should not be determined by development. -please... please... do something about IA developing as if there was no tomorrow from 1550 onwords. Where there's a farmland province I have to conquer a 30+ developed province.

I'd like eastern Europe to get an update in the next dlc. Particularly Ruthenia, their mission tree is quite small. Maybe a way to restore the kievan rus.

Hey Paradox! It would be cool if you included a way to restore the Phoenician Empire and faith as Lebanon. Maybe include a juicy mission tree with that and a way to restore the old faith. Maybe even branching missions where you can be Christian, Muslim, or the old Phoenician religion, and depending on what you choose you get specific pathways. Maybe as the old Phonecian religion, you get to take over all the Levant and Egyptian region and later North Africa and Rome/Italian Region. Basically a mission that would make this Phonecian nation the new "Rome"

Good show sir

Ludi, you have to play as Georgia next time! They seem to be fun! Oh, man, you know what would be an epic run? To start as Georgia the country, claw your way to survival through the ottomans and Russians, research exploration, get to America and conquer (or establish) the state of Georgia (or its location). Paradox should make this an achievement for this country!

Thank you Paradox for the, much needed, great Byz update. We are Byz fan boys (and we are everywhere)! And thank you Ludi for the great game... and for butchering the Greek language! 😂😂 Some suggestions for you, Balkan brother: 1. Release Bulgaria after your win against Epirus to get the power projection from rivalling Epirus. 2. In the first peace deal with the Ottos, in the Balkan I would take the same (Greek cores, Ohri and Silistria) except, maybe for Edirne, to lower aggressive expansion by keeping the Ottos in Europe. But since we haven't played the DLC and we don't know if the Ottos change the capital to Asia, it's not sure yet. 3. What is sure is that, in the same peace deal, instead of Kocaeli, Biga and Hudavendigar, take Kocaeli, Bolu and Ankara. This peace deal will make your game much easier. You can attack Candar and Karaman before the Ottos, cutting Anatolia in two, and also, if the Ottos attack the same nation it's a great opportunity to diplo-vassalize that nation and get to a defensive war with the Ottos. You can even take Aksarai from Karaman and release Eretna to get their cores from the Ottos in the next war.

its 11k likes already milord, we humbly asked for the rest of the videos

Paradox, if you're reading this please update north africa. We need more flavor there especially about the whole berber culture and history! Otherwhise I feel quite satisfied by this update, love Eranshahr!

23:25 But Ludi, there is a whole tv series about those events! And Giustiniani is an important character too. The only minor problem is that it is a Turkish production XD. I am not planning to watch it, but you could consider making a "Ludi et Historia reacts" video, I would love to see it. Besides, the second season is labelled "Mehemet vs Vlad".

Suggestion to the Paradoxians: I'd love some change to be made to the separatist rebels, or the way they work, so we start seeing countries break free from rebels, rather than almost never seeing it, especially in powerful countries, and primarily seeing them being released in wars.

Managed to get to the same point, September 1451, however had to make it without the +10% morale from advisor (Got tired of restarting). Got Albania, Georgia and the Knights fighting for me though! I do have almost 200 ducats in debt as I had to go over the force limit for quite some time. But the really bad part is that I lose 7 ducats a month! And don't see how I am going to change that anytime soon. At least Naples finally broke free...

1071 War (Also named Malazgirt War in Turkish) happened in Malatya, Malazgirt. That was the border of Byzantium. Anyways thx for the vid ludibro

Trebizond would be cool. Getting a mission tree for Trebizond would be nice. Getting both an achievement for forming the Roman Empire starting as Trebizond would be perfect.

ludi you mentioned movies about giovanni and this period, idk if you have netflix or not but theres an amazing series called rise of the ottomans, i can only reccomend it

My eyes teared up when I saw the ask for knowledge sharing button.

23:30 There is literally a netflix documentation series "Rise of the Ottomans" describing his role in the Siege of Byzantium

And now i understand how the community post image from a few days ago was done. A bunch of seemingly odd steps that make sense due to the way it works, plus the ability to release bulgaria from the 11th of November 1444, and then 40% cheaper mercenary (with strategy and navy and being at least decent at the game) combined with the pope and Serbia and balkan all over the place. Well, that's at least what i got. Sorry if my prior comment (the community post one) came off as rude or trolly, i should've read into things a bit closer first.