I am surprised that this has not gotten more of a reaction. I never really thought about what the renaissance was fully a rebirth of. So I recognized the philosophy but forgot about the art aspect. He makes a great point about the sensuality and lack of symbolic reference (for instance with the Zeus looking God touching Adam’s finger. It is arbitrary and has zero reference to scripture). Great insights.

You know the artists weren't spiritualy well when they made soft core porn of the Theotokos & considered it to be an honorable representation.

@raywest7222

Жыл бұрын

Amein

@ryrocks9487

5 ай бұрын

I agree. That’s the most powerful way to conceptualize this for a Roman Catholic, if I had to guess.

Usually I agree with Jonathan's views, and while he made some interesting points up for reflection about what defines the true value of art, I don't agree that there should be no space for nudity as innocence and purity of the human form. Also, that art evolves into more intricate forms such as seen in the renaissance is an exploration of beauty, and the fact that it may have derived from a more pagan context doesn't mean that it cannot be integrated into a monotheistic sense (which is a point he himself made about Christmas and such christian celebrations being derived from initially pagan rituals)...

@Thedisciplemike

6 ай бұрын

Just not in Churches and used in devotion

I wonder what they think of Camille Paglia's 'Sexual Personae'.

I was wondering if you had the excerpt of Jonathan discussing the symbolism of Jesus casting demons into the swine? I think he mentioned it in a QnA somewhere.. just can't find it. Thanks

Representational art is a slippery slope from the start. It's a trick we can play on the senses to bring you to another world, or bring another world to you.

Mathew 16:24~ “Then said Jesus unto His disciples, If any man would come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.” Sounds like a foundational expectation of Jesus, penitential life while here on earth. Not just for the disciple’s soul, but for the whole Mystical Body. Co-redemption. ✨Ave! Gratia Plena!✨

I wonder what the symbolism of that rogue hair on top of Johnathan’s head is

@betweenearthandsky4091

Жыл бұрын

😂

@jadesteffen6115

Жыл бұрын

😂

This compilation absolutely blew my mind! I became a "Classicist" before returning to the Catholic church because I was scorned at an Art history course I took (you can imagine the resason). I started chasing the Logos in the art and philosophy before returning definitively to the Catholic church. These 3 last years I've been watching Pageau nonstop, and learning tons of stuff that are NOT present nor discussed in the specialized bibliography I have had at my reach. I'm REALLY thankful for this video and for all the Work Mr. Pageau has uploaded during these years. I'm your most fervent admirer and dedicated student. Thanks again.

The inspiration for Michelangelo's treatment of the creation of Adam is thought to come from the medieval hymn "Veni Creator Spiritus", which asks the 'finger of the paternal right hand' (digitus Paternae dexterae) to give the faithful speech. Personnally I think the West is the battlefront in the Christian story. It is there that the main story happens. And Rome has always been on the front line, always the one leading the charge in the fight for the Good. That is one of the reasons I am Catholic. And yes, Renaissance art had wrong sides, but the Council of Trent brought a remedy to it, and this gave rise to the baroque, which was so beautiful that it was even adopted in the architecture of many Orthodox churches.

@panokostouros7609

3 жыл бұрын

Yes, but the post-schism West engaged in many disputes that were already fought and dealt with in the first 1000 years by both East and West.

@rustybeltway2373

3 жыл бұрын

I think the Orthodox opinion is that Rome has been losing its fight with the world for the last 1200 years. The art became decadent, the ecclesiology focused on the temporal and legalistic, and the theology became humanistic philosophy. The Church of Vatican II isn't fighting anything, except traditional Catholicism.

@matina_angel

2 жыл бұрын

the catholic church was a deviation of the true first Church, that is why it lost all its spirituality and took a political form - catholic church's contribution to the christian "story" is just a bunch of socio-political practices, nothing more, not a real spiritual contribution there. Sorry.

@vituzui9070

2 жыл бұрын

@@matina_angel Well what you say is just false. We have a strong spirituality. Just because it is different from your spirituality doesn't mean it is not spirituality.

@Mahogaany

2 жыл бұрын

@@matina_angel It seems you just don't know much about Catholicism. Let's just mention Pope Gregory I, John of the Cross, Teresa of Avila, Thomas Aquinas. And hundreds of mystics, theologians, saints who have influenced deeply christian spirituality.

I believe that if it wasnt for these kind of Renaissance paintings porn wouldnt have taken a hold on the west like it has. You can trace a line direct from these types of paintings to the development of softcore porn artists and then eventual to internet debotury and the lust culture of the modern world

18:56

I don’t believe Jonathon realized that the fingers touching IS the symbolism of man, God the Father representing heaven and Adam representing Earth. Where Man is the joining of Heaven and Earth!

@Thedisciplemike

6 ай бұрын

That was his point. It's symbolism devoid of tradition. That kind of symbolism is left open to be interpreted and can thus be ambiguous

Hmmmm. I as a christian used to draw from live people nude. Lifedrawing. I disagree that nudity is pornography. Our bodies are fearfully and wonderfully made. When drawing people's bodies you see the humanity in a transarent manner as it is in its reality, unvarnished.

I'm sorry, but there is clearly a pattern here in which countries do better in every way: less crime, better economy, more happiness, etc: muslim > orthodox > catholic > protestant > secular. Just look at any map of Europe.

@planteruines5619

24 күн бұрын

muslim at the highest point ??! , looking at bosnia i can't see why you said that

JP has interesting insights but I think here is too dogmatic in his tradition. Each culture will integrate into religious depictions, the orthodox are no different. Each culture has symbolism, how is the orthodox symbolism the “correct” one? I have seen non biblical creativity in eastern icons, but they represent biblical themes. Which is fine, and that’s what western art does.

@Thedisciplemike

6 ай бұрын

You miss the purpose of Sacred Art

Great art is created by geniuses who are able to receive inspiration and think outside the box. Such people are not limited to rigid and dogmatic interpretations of ancient texts, belief in the absolute validity or divinity of which is essentially baseless and simply used by small minds to attain some measure of paltry psychological security in the face of the reality of an amazingly complex universe.

@rustybeltway2373

2 жыл бұрын

Before genius can reveal itself by thinking outside the box, there has to be a box.

@endofscene

2 жыл бұрын

@@rustybeltway2373 Yeah. Guys like this are the box ;)

@fakename3208

Жыл бұрын

And this is why I can take a shit on a pedestal and sell you tickets to go see it.

@Thedisciplemike

6 ай бұрын

This philosophy leads to the modern mess we call art today. Return to the icons

catholics and protestants are stuck to the idea of atonement, which is the purpose of the incarnation for them. Whereas in Orthodoxy the reason is love and theosis

@sasukeCS7

Жыл бұрын

As a Catholic, I disagree. We believe that, out of His infinite Love and Goodness, God willed for us to become God (theosis) from the beginning, but since we were dead in sin, he first had to become man and atone for our sin so that the door to holiness/transfiguration might be opened to sinful man.

@bobSeigar

7 ай бұрын

​@@sasukeCS7You didn't disagree, you agreed in different words.

@Thedisciplemike

6 ай бұрын

Atonement = Theosis