"It is a skill issue but an issue nonetheless."

@sebastianpaulis7184

20 күн бұрын

I died when I heard him say it

@angeldude101

8 күн бұрын

Hearing "skill issue" and it being treated like a real issue rather than an excuse to ignore a problem felt oddly refreshing.

Timestamps for folks: 1:00 Golang 3:25 Crystal 5:47 Kotlin 7:33 Swift 9:28 Zig 11:38 Gleam 14:07 Nim 15:30 Dart 16:50 Julia 18:01 Rust

@AttrakoNull

6 күн бұрын

elixir?

Gleam mentioned!!!

@marcellofonseca6065

2 ай бұрын

Great language! Thank you so much man

@ccriztoff

2 ай бұрын

Beyond cringe 😂 just learn Rust or Go

@jamlie977

2 ай бұрын

@@ccriztoff RUST MENTIONED! LETS GO

@ccriztoff

2 ай бұрын

@@jamlie977 Rusty and Crabpilled

@neociber24

2 ай бұрын

I know this guy

As zig is pre-1.0, it moves very quickly and the LSP targets the nightly version so it probably didn't work for 0.11. Once it hits 1.0, the idea is to not change the language much and things will settle down a bit. Sorry you had a bad experience with Zig. It really is a great language. If you ever try again, use the nightly!

@tom-delalande

2 ай бұрын

Thanks for the mention. If the tooling does work on nightly that's my mistake. I will definitely try it again, there's so much to like about it.

@arden6725

Ай бұрын

that’s not true, the lsp has tagged builds for each release, including 0.11. As it is the lsp doesn’t work anywhere that comptime is involved, which is pretty much everything

I use Nim at work for exactly a kind of use-case it excels in: Fast native-compiled statically-linked data processing that needs to be portable to embedded platforms (my giant program compiles as-is on ARM using musl-libc), with ergonomic Pythonic syntax that ensures you don’t need to worry about memory issues. It can be best described as either: Very fast native-compiled Python, or extremely, unrecognizably ergonomic C++. Take your pick.

@eduardabramovich1216

Ай бұрын

Did you learn it just by reading the docs?

@kuroxell

Күн бұрын

Damn

Great video! I would like to see a follow-up video analyzing Elixir, F#, Haskell, PureScript, Clojure, and OCaml.

can't wait to see this when zig is at 1.0+ like the other languages on the list.

My job literally involves Java 8 and JavaScript... I got called out so hard Sike! We use more and more Rust now because of me >:D

@residual-entropy

2 ай бұрын

lol I would be so happy to have a job writing Rust

@owndampu1731

Ай бұрын

could be worse, my job is mostly Matlab/Simulink code generation. But I am also introducing more tooling in rust so at least thats nice

@residual-entropy

Ай бұрын

@@owndampu1731 I despise matlab, although someone in the research lab who I work with has to write Fortran lol.

@dotchris1111

Ай бұрын

C89 and some pre-C89 and Java 8

@arandomzy

Ай бұрын

Damn sucks that you downgraded!!

Nim starts getting good when you look into metaprogramming. See some of the DSL libraries like Jester or HappyX. Also its ability to compile into C, C++, or JS makes it good for pretty much any domain. Also note Nim's memory management model nowadays isnt really a traditional GC, but the memory is automatically managed at compiletime.

@tom-delalande

2 ай бұрын

It seems like need to put some more dedicated time into Nim. Thanks for the advice

@yuitachibana8829

2 күн бұрын

Imo nim has the same problem with modern c++, too many ways to do 1 thing and unopinionated so each project has a completely different structure

@sp.n7401

2 күн бұрын

@@yuitachibana8829 I think the standard library is very consistent with one way to do something. Where C++ feels like you have to read a book on every individual subsection, Nim is pretty straightforward and you can read anything that only uses std. That's what makes me appreciate Nim more and want to distance myself from C++. Plus, macros still use Nim's standard calling conventions so it never feels jarring.

I don't really understand why Dart got such a low score. It feels like it gets a lot of things right, and I had a blast using it to maintain a production Flutter app. It feels like your grades don't align with your feedback :D

@AGAU1022

2 ай бұрын

Dart got a high score and came in fourth.

@JavierGuerra_g

2 ай бұрын

he actually didn't use the nice parts of Dart. the `..` operator is pure genius for initialisation, making dependency injection work without any clunky library or "bag of globals". the automatic parameters make robust initialisators look like magic. like with Zig, it requires more than just a glance to appreciate. I bet he had previous experience with some of the most highly rated ones, which helped him find the best parts of those.

@gaxkiller

Ай бұрын

I use dart since 5 years and I love it, I think he treated dart fairly. There is still stuff we want and don't have yet in dart. Static metaprograming (it is coming very soon), error as value not exception (no plan to change this at all, so you have to import fp library like fpdart and use either type). For some reason they don't want to let us configure line length on a per project basis, and default line length is 80... I find the pattern matching syntax to be a bit confusing (particularly when using switch expression) but it might be me I don't know. Except that, the toolings is just awesome. I use flutter (so dart) at work because I in charge of the mobile team, but I have to work with python for backend, I feel so miserable when I have to use python, the tooling is horrible, the language is horrible, nothing works, it is probably the worst language I ever used.

@gaxkiller

Ай бұрын

@@JavierGuerra_g It is the second time someone mentioned the '..' operator as an exceptional feature of dart and I don't get it, if you embrace immutability you cannot use this operator 99 percent of the time when initialising a class, or I am missing something. Could you also elaborate how it helps for Dependency injection please? Always eager to learn new stuff about this language I love, even if I would feel dumb having missed incredible feature usage for so long

@JavierGuerra_g

Ай бұрын

@@gaxkiller there's so much to be said about how DI is great when you don't use a library and so disastrous when you do. and for most languages, the syntax gets in the way, making complex initialisations either complex and hard to read, or a whole API in itself. to make that last option somewhat more palatable, somebody invented "fluent APIs" which are nice, but tedious to implement, and create other limitations. in flutter, the '..' operator gives all the benefits of fluent without having to create all those initialiser methods, and thus you get those multi-line, deeply nested, but nicely-indented and very readable initialisation stanzas, where you can do all the DI you wish.

hey tom I was thinking of this video and I just had the idea that if you extend those same examples trying to getting deeper into optimization for them, you would dive deeper into the languages, review what they provide for performance and so on. Lets be real that is the type of thing that everyone subscribed here would watch more than an hour easily. It would be epic, all of luck!

You do an excellent job. All that was left to do was take into account the quantity and maturity of the library ecosystem.

Nim also supports checked exceptions btw. And the default GC is refcounting like swift.

Very agreeable takes, thanks for your efforts!

Julia and Nim, such wonderful but underrated languages. Both in my top 3!

@patrickmoehrke4982

Ай бұрын

What is your other top 3?

@blaisepascal3905

Ай бұрын

@@patrickmoehrke4982 ok, don't freak out. It's R, I am a researcher. And R do the job really well.

@patrickmoehrke4982

Ай бұрын

@@blaisepascal3905 Haha I also use R! It doesn't get enough credit outside statistics and academia.

@spacelem

Ай бұрын

@@blaisepascal3905 same, I've been working in R for the last few years and it's wonderful for stats and plotting, but I was able to get some really complex genetic epidemiological modelling done with Julia pre-2020 which R would have choked on. Two languages that seem to scare people off, but are so nice to use once you get the hang of them.

@InfiniteQuest86

Ай бұрын

Yeah he basically ignored all the real use cases for Julia which makes it seem like a glorified bash. But try doing complicated math in bash and you'll quickly see where Julia excels.

I appreciate you being clear and upfront about how you'll be ranking the languages. Also, you might enjoy Roc! Although TCP server might be too low-level (in Roc those things are usually handled by platfroms), so I would recommend making something else with it

Thanks for taking the time to do all this coding and evaluation. It's very nice to see the implementation in diff. languages. IMHO, Rust code is the most unreadable, by far.

@YT.Nikolay

25 күн бұрын

ChatGPT can convert the given code to any language that existed before 2019 ;)

I like Dart the most! It has such clean and logical language features, it just feels nice to write! It doesn't have stupid pitfalls and shortcommings. Also, since it has a big Company behind it, it evolvs very rapidly and gets good improvenents regularly! Since version 3 it got big improvements on the functional side, with pattern matching and exhaustive switch statements. And it has null safety since version 2.

@olafschluter706

Ай бұрын

The problem with dart is tooling. You can write a dart executable, but you cannot write a library with C ABI linkage (in fact you cannot write a library and ship it in binary form at all). Another drawback is that it is by nature a programming language for single-threaded applications. It has async/await, but running multiple threads using the dart standard features is awful. It's biggest plus in my eyes: when you come from Java, Dart is a weekend job to learn. It's a less verbose version of Java with Null-Safety and free-standing functions and variables. It does a pretty good job to support the Flutter Frontend Framework, where multi-threading isn't needed that much, but asynchronous operations are all over the place.

@dampfwatze

Ай бұрын

@@olafschluter706 Yes, that you cannot bind C libraries easily is a big problem that just did not get enough attention, also because it works in Flutter and Flutter was the primary focus for a long time. But the team behind Dart is actively working on a solution, it is called native assets and it is behind a experimental flag at the moment. Of course, that it does not support multi threading easily is a drawback. Though, the use of isolates encourages the use of message passing to pass data, which is often thought to be a safer method to handle data, than for example a shared state. But I do use Dart very often and I rarely find myself actually spawning additional isolates, because for the use cases Dart is designed for, it is often just not needed. Partly because async/await works so well. Of course for use cases like Webservers it would be beneficial to implement multithreading and I think a well designed Framework could very well work around Darts limitations. And comparing to other languages, it is not worse than for example Node.js (it works essentially the same), which is one of the primary Webserver runtimes today... Only God knows why... And for example Python cannot do any real multithreading at the moment, because of the GIL... Overall I think Dart has great potential to replace many current solutions like Javascript (in front and backend), Python (as a scripting language, for Webservers, or even for algebraic and ML use cases), Java, C# and probably more! It is just, that the Frameworks are missing...

@TarrenHassman

12 күн бұрын

@@olafschluter706 Dart has multi threading using isolates. And there is even a simplified implementation for flutter called compute. I find it to be very straightforward and I used to write multi threaded code in C almost a decade ago. As for compiling to binaries, there is a dart2native package as well as flutter being able to compile into every native platform mobile, desktop, and web.

Great video and thanks for trying all of these languages

Julia is my favorite language! I think you basically correctly described it, it's excellent for REPL programming and a few other things, but it's not the right choice for most projects. I especially like how you put it at rock-bottom on the safety scale! That is exactly correct, there are very few languages that will let you overwrite almost everything in the language, even to the point where there isn't really anything you can do but restart your REPL. It doesn't come up often, but when you want it, it's nice to have such a ridiculous brute-force solution. In my opinion, it is the perfect prototyping language. It lets you focus on exactly the things you care about specifying while ignoring ALL the rest, whether that be expressive types, data structures, performance (to an astonishing degree, actually), even concurrency... everything except for correctness. If you can write it in less than 1000 lines of code, and it doesn't have to be perfect, then you're going to have a good time with Julia. Also, the array broadcast notation makes me feel like I have superpowers. Working with collections in Julia is so freeing compared to everything else I've used. But yeah. Rewriting yet another Julia program in Rust right now (this time, for WASM support) :P

I’ve working with Bun and I am really liking it. The tooling is awesome and not require external dependencies do to the basics. The websocket module is awesome and easy to use

Thank you man, this was very valuable

Nice comparison! Good job. Try also OCaml next time:) I'm sure you will enjoy it as it's like a rust with GC.

Didn't understand a word you said. Video is great tho. Am in awe of your programming capabilities ^^

9:08 Sad truth😔I feel Swift is such a beautiful language with so much potential. And while it is open-source and Apple is doing something, it's not that widely adopted because: 1) Still needs a good cross-platform IDE 2) Apple Documentation is terrible 3) It lacks APIs for so many general-purpose things

I think you should look into nim more. While I do agree it has some strange stolen features that don’t feel like they mesh well together. It’s actively developed and isn’t afraid to add new patterns. Honestly I would love to see you’re criticisms more in the nim community and I would love if you got involved.

First 10 seconds had me dying laughing. Also subscribing. Love the deadpan humor. I’m Rust/Go as situation dictates. I love rewriting Python in Rust and running comparative benchmarks. It’s stupid how slow Python is. Also minor maintenance of legacy Java and C++.

I like swift, the keyword arguments in particular. But, the rust ownership model and errors as results/values are the best.

11:17 on the top, there is the compile command, below is in what module the error occured, below again is the error, basically, in zig, you can only access active field of unions, there are also tagged union which you can use switch on them. here you try to access "Pointer" while the union field "Struct" was active. what you can do is check if the field is active: if (taggedUnion == .Field) { . . . } or use a switch statement: switch (taggedUnion) { . . . }

Very interesting video. Just an idea for next similar ones: you should also compare these with "classical" languages that everyone has to use at everyday work such as Java, JavaScript, Python or C#... This would give the insight about the language evolution from the classics to the modern ones. Btw. I am a Kotlin fan. As I do not mind using JetBrains tooling (which is perfect!) I would give it much more points in tooling category which would make it almost a winner. :) I was surprised by Gleam, I have never heard of it... but I will definitely find out more.

@ccriztoff

2 ай бұрын

Java, JavaScript and Python some of the worst shit 😂

@gaxkiller

Ай бұрын

@@ccriztoff Yes, I understand why he didn't even loose time trying them >

Nice vid, informative: would love to see this across different tasks. Rust being a joy to read is a bit on the nose however.

@mikkelens

Ай бұрын

Not sure what you mean about that last part. Is rust really bad to read? Compared to what?

@stretch8390

Ай бұрын

@@mikkelens obviously elements of personal preference, but Rust is well known for correctness not for being a joy to read. Ruby is a joy to read, APL is a nightmare, and Rust lies somewhere in between. My 2c.

@opposite342

21 күн бұрын

​​​@@mikkelens Rust is basically impossible to read if you are newer to the language, especially when it introduces new concepts like borrowing and lifetimes. Meanwhile, most programmers can just see Go and understand what it does even if they barely use the language. Other than that, it's preference. I come from a Python background, so I found nim to be easy for me to read while zig being the hardest in these examples. Other people may prefer verbose language with more information, or c-style curly braces. It's all what you grown familiar with. However, if you remove that, my point still stands that Go is probably the easiest in general for anyone to read here.

great video! It'd be interesting to compare the LOC it took in each language

@tom-delalande

2 ай бұрын

Thanks! Great idea. Here are the lines of code (including any blank lines): Nim - 150 Kotlin - 163 Julia - 170 Swift - 180 (with dependencies) Crystal - 187 Dart - 190 Go - 264 Gleam - 278 (with dependencies) Zig - 338 Rust - 354 Anecdotally, Go and Dart definitely felt the quickest to write and Zig took me the longest. Interesting that I enjoyed some of the verbose languages. I wonder if that's just Stockholm syndrome and less lines is actually just easier

@danielkurz7806

2 ай бұрын

​@@tom-delalande Thanks! Yeah very interesting, especially how few LOC nim took. I guess some of it could be attributed to "skill issues" :D But also more LOC could mean more resilient code because of error handling So yeah very cool

@gaxkiller

Ай бұрын

LOC is the most useless metric. You can write s**t very quick in python, with zero error reported by your IDE and zero error handling. But then you would need 123124124 LOC of unit test to be sure that true = true

@misalambasta

10 күн бұрын

​@@tom-delalande pin 📍

Zig fan here. The reason why you struggled so much with Zig might be this language's innate low-levelness. Sometimes writing Zig feels like writing LLVM IR, and for an untrained hand this is almost a chore. Tho it gets easier over time. Also comptime comptime comptime. It is incredible, and i get immeasurable high when it works the way i want. You can pretty much have every single feature of any language, have it as a zero-runtime, and have it not being a macro. This is nothing but witchery, atleast it feels like it.

@AGAU1022

2 ай бұрын

He didn't struggle as much with Rust though.

@rakaboy1619

2 ай бұрын

@@AGAU1022 i dont think Rust is nearly as low level as Zig.

@beeplove7

2 ай бұрын

​@@AGAU1022 Zig is pre 1.0, it is clearly not stable for now. Things move fast. People are bound to face issues but still many are adopting it. While Rust has been around for a while now. The creator of zig was frustrated to write his program in C++/Rust/C so he started creating zig. So can't really complain about a premature language

@androth1502

Ай бұрын

i find it odd that he had a hard time with zig, but no problem with rust.

@Darkev77

Ай бұрын

@@androth1502 so true lol, Rust group bias I guess

I'm confused. You are saying that safety is important for you, things like exhaustive switch statements, immutability, and null-safety. And then you give Go and Kotlin the same score 3. Even though Kotlin has many of the safety features mentioned while Go doesn't.

@jamlie977

2 ай бұрын

same, he said he dislikes Go's error handling but said gleam had it really good, it's almost as verbose as Go's way

@TJackson736

2 ай бұрын

The man explains why - he dislikes try catch and prefers errors as values. He is lazy and will ignore exceptions while writing code without the compiler complaining. Go enforces error handling, and Kotlin uses unchecked exceptions.

@jamlie977

2 ай бұрын

@@TJackson736 the toInt method for strings in kotlin may throw an exception yet he praised it even though it doesn't tell you that it's may throw an exception since it uses java.lang.Integer.parseInt under the hood, it's really weird how he hates unchecked exceptions but not always

@AndrewBrownK

2 ай бұрын

it would be much more difficult to compare if allowing dependencies, he might like the result type from ArrowKt

@ccriztoff

2 ай бұрын

Go is simply better though

Great choice of languages. I personally would have added C# and Elixir. I would love to see a followup video with the languages people have mentioned in the comments. I've been a php dev for a while, so I've been looking for a new language to pick up because I'm a bit bored. I was originally attracted to rust and gleam, but they were proving to be a bit of a challenge, so I went with Go because it seems to be learnable and popular. One day though I will pick up Rust or Gleam.

@gaxkiller

Ай бұрын

I was very interested in Elixir too, then I saw it is not statically typed. From personal experience, the developer experience regarding dynamic language is subpar vs statically typed language so I did not bother investing time in it. There are adding type step by step apparently but it did not solve the problem for other dynamic languages that did that.

I came across this video in the r/gleamlang subreddit. Fantastic work : ) I think Gleam might be my new favorite non-array language.

I would have added performance as a criteria.

Pretty sure idiomatic Kotlin error handling is much closer to Rust then Java. You would use Result type to return error as value and throw for panic. I dont really know tho, I am in the process of learning Kotlin. Overall Kotlin seems like an extremely pragmatic yet expressive language, with a module system to avoid common oop pitfalls. With the mutliplatform enetring stability, it just might be a killer app of Kotlin ecosystem.

@MarcelRiegler

Ай бұрын

The MAJOR issue with Kotlin is exactly that there is no idiomatic error handling. The official Result Type was only added after years, and they threw out checked exceptions without giving us a good, standard library alternative. Meaning, everyone did their own thing. You also lack convenience of a "try-catch"-like structure for Result types, meaning you end up having to manually check every Result.

Thanks for this video! 👍💯

Thank you for adding gleam🎉🎉

Excellent video. That was fast and concieces

Nim is way, way, waaaaaaaayyyyy faster than Python, so of course there is an advantage. Regarding Nim's identity, I've heard people saying that and I don't understand the point. What's python's identity? Everything, it's used for everything. Web, desktop, data analysis, data engineering, scientific dev, scripting, sec tools... But nobody complains about that.

@4idenn

Ай бұрын

Tbf these days I think Nim's identity is "the hacking language"

@pnk4996

Ай бұрын

Pythons identity is that it’s the most mid language ever

@SirRichard94

Ай бұрын

And that's why I don't like either

@gaxkiller

Ай бұрын

Well, taking python as a reference speaks a lot, if you eat s**t everyday, dirt might taste good to you

@johndoe7017

Ай бұрын

Yeah but that’s great, because you can learn one language and do anything you want. It may not be fast but being able to do anything is quite convenient

Great video and overview, but Zig is really unfairly rated.

Well, a 20+ minutes vidéo I actually watched from beginning to end, no fast forward, no need to rewind. That's become so f'in rare these days! Clear sections of the video where you setup your goal, testing protocol, evaluation criterias. Then doing it with examplification, biased opinions and objective comments both for each. Then a summary and an acknowlegement of your biases and a humble recommandation of which to choose in your opinion depending on your preferences. Rust only got an 18/20, but you get a 20/20 note as far as I'm concerned! *DING* Subscribed

19:50 Just a quick note, because I think you borrowed that from Blow (pun intended), but I also think while it can take "10% more time to write" (even when this statement is so blank) it also can make your code "10% or more easier to write bug-free" which will save you time. So I think it is a net gain generally, but this depends on the scope and the project.

I’m most excited about Gleam. Feels like the love child of Rust and F#

Do you have the source for the Rust project available online?

With that feature list at the start, I was thinking f# would be a perfect match

One thing I did not like, is how readability is being rated? For me, readability is the ability to read a code from someone else and know what it does. Why for example, rust with it's vast syntax is more readable than go? I don't get the justification. If I write code in golang, I will know what it do instantly, if I show it to anyone, they will know exactly what it does without effort. I wouldn't be so sure of that in the case of rust. Some libraries in rust is unreadable compared to others. Everyone have their own writing styles. It should be less readable than go.

@AGAU1022

2 ай бұрын

I was a bit confused about the readability and ergonomics ratings for Nim as well. I get that Nim is unsafe but it seems pretty readable and ergonomic and had the fewest lines of code.

@jamlie977

2 ай бұрын

readability is a matter of familiarity, I don't think it can be rated since it would be unfair, for example, i write Go more than Rust and i never wrote Gleam, therefore gleam is not as readable to me compared to rust and go and rust is not as readable as go, it's unfair to rank it

@lazyh0rse

2 ай бұрын

@jamlie977 no body said x is unreadable, but it should be a meteric of how much experience it requires. A code written by a senior go engineer will be readable for a junior dev. But rust won't.

@jamlie977

2 ай бұрын

@@lazyh0rse i get you, that's why i said it's unfair for him to rank them based on readability as it's a matter of familiarity, if he doesn't have much experience with a language he would assume it's not as readable which might be false

@AGAU1022

2 ай бұрын

​​​​​​@@jamlie977 It's unfair to rank it by your own subjective ability to read the language. But there is objectively readability in the sense that some languages are easier to learn when adjusting for that bias, like for beginners who have no experience in any language, and juniors with no experience in either language. A language is objectively more readable (on average when including beginners) when it more closely resembles natural language expressions of the same logic, more real words and natural grammar, less esoteric abbreviations, esoteric symbol use, and bloated non-grammatical boilerplate to declare things that should just be a default. Basically: how easily can someone without experience read it out loud in a way that accurately conveys the code.

"Nim is the least opinionated language" - I agree. Been using it for a bit. On the surface it's a statically typed python with even more stuffs like metaprogramming capabilities etc etc. I like the freedom but I also appreciate what other languages have to offer in this list.

Cool video, you could try Rescript or more FP oriented languages to see if it's more to your liking

@tom-delalande

2 ай бұрын

I've been thinking about Rescript a lot, I'm tossing between trying to learn either that or Elm.

@captainnoyaux

Ай бұрын

@@tom-delalande both are awesome, I believe there is more people using Rescript nowadays thought (it might not be a valid criteria for you)

@Weathercold

Ай бұрын

⁠​⁠​⁠@@tom-delalandeyou should try Clojure, though you might not like it since it’s dynamic

Honestly, I really like rust but working when I have to write a bunch of just regular regular code is absolutely by far. The best option for me. It’s easy, it’s readable, The standard library is great and super quick to just get things done.

I really want to use Rust or Swift (not heard of Gleam so will check that out). Having said that, I love JS for the work I do (Node / front), but tend to only use the ES6+ stuff (don't have to maintain older 'smelly' code so much). I should build a Swift version of Node (I am sure it exists out there somewhere)

And then there is a third group, array (and/or stack) languages, like Uiua. The most elegant solutions, assuming your inputs are integer sequences copy-pasted into the interpreter.

can you add link to the repo, its very usable to learn some of this langs via another that you already know

damn the end was too real. I just finished watching this on my lunch break where I will have to go back to writing spring boot on java 8 and angular js 💀

Nim needs more love! It makes me so sad that it's still not used for more important projects.

which program used least time to run? guessing rust and zig are pretty fast

swift vscode: for the time being it is necessary to build the swift package at least once to make sourcekit-lsp recognizing and processing package imports correctly. Other than that, vscode is the better IDE than Xcode for using Swift unless you are really into developing apps for Apple's ecosystem, where you depend on all the Xcode features supporting UI and other Kits from Apple.

I love Julia, it's my favourite language now (apart from maybe R or Scheme). I find it elegant and aesthetically pleasing. That said, I primarily do mathematical modelling and statistics, rather than making apps, so I don't really know what it's like from that perspective. The 1-based indexing is something you'll find in a lot of programming languages popular among mathematicians (see also Fortran, R, Matlab, GNU Octave, Maple, Mathematica, and Maxima), I guess we just prefer it that way.

@renato360a

Ай бұрын

As a mathematician, I don't. And I always prefer to index my sequences from 0. Whenever I read a text that features a sequence with index starting at 1 I have a harder time grasping proofs. Good thing about programming in mathematics is that languages tend to be functional, so you don't often try to directly access some index or do index arithmetic. Also, Python has 0-based indexing so that's cool for me.

@spacelem

Ай бұрын

@@renato360a every time I see Python's "range" function, and know you have to say "1 to n+1" to get "1 to n" (instead of 1:n like any 1-based language) it makes me irrationally angry. Especially when numpy's "arange" function has the exact same behaviour for non-integer sequences, which makes it so much more difficult to specify the end point. I don't like Python.

@renato360a

Ай бұрын

@@spacelem yes, I would expect that! 😅But that's a very rare case as I see it. 99% of the time I'm not specifying the starting point, so I'm just reading "range(n)" as "give me _n_ terms of a sequence", which if we start from zero, naturally should end at _n-1_ . For non integer sequences I tend to use "linspace" more anyway, which does include the endpoint.

@spacelem

Ай бұрын

@@renato360a I'm a mathematical modeller, dealing with epidemiological and genetic models. I frequently need to simulate from t=[0..T] (end points included), but also when doing intervals it might be X(t) for t=[t1.. t2], and the next interval I need X(t2) as the initial conditions (this is absolutely the case with my current project, which involves a virus spreading between chickens, which one group being added to the previous group for a period, then moved back, and being the source of infection for the next group). When doing sensitivity analysis on parameters I often need linspace or logspace (or their language equivalents). It's much easier to drop the final point if I don't need it than to try to guess a value past the end that doesn't get me too many points. When it comes to accessing data (so integer values for an index), I just like the 1st point to be x[1], and the Nth point to be x[N], not x[0] and x[N-1]. It's less to have to think about. I know there are times when 0-indexing has helped with certain algorithms in C++ dealing with n-dim arrays, but R or Julia usually already provide the tools to not need to think about it.

@renato360a

Ай бұрын

@@spacelem Hm. I guess it's more like to which camp does one belong to, Naturals start from 0 or from 1. Mathematicians don't make up our minds about it so you see models starting sequences from either. And you and I are from different camps... Personally I love subtracting 0 (does nothing) and hate subtracting 1 (shifts everything), so I'd much rather start at zero and end at N-1. A long time ago I had to get it through my head at great pains that when you subtract two integers, the result has to be increased by 1 to yield the total number of elements including the endpoints. That made it very natural for me to see a sequence to N-1 as having N elements.

I wish Gleam had an option to compile into a static binary, instead of always requiring the runtime. I find myself moving more and more towards container-based deployment solutions, and while there are base images with a runtime, it bothers me to rely on heavier bases and have the runtime shipped with every container I have. I think that's something C# understands well, in order to have .NET 8 reliable for cloud native solutions they added the Native AOT feature, and I wish other languages relying on a runtime did the same.

Damn that closing statement hits close to home

I really think Swift has the right balance of features, safety, expressibility, I am glad to see it well represented here. BTW It does not use GC. One thing I would like to have seen is a discussion of generics handling. I think Swift shines here.

Im forever a Julia boi. I just love it. It is absolutely perfect. But maybe that’s because I’m a physicist. But it’s just a breeze.

@blaisepascal3905

2 ай бұрын

Indeed, the fact that you are a scientist may be a bias... but, Julia is just amazing like you said!

@SystemAlchemist

Ай бұрын

As a physicist as well as a software engineer, I entirely agree. Julia just has the best syntax.

@stretch8390

Ай бұрын

@@SystemAlchemist begin and end are two words that don't do it for me personally.

I used a lot of Zig lately so I might be bias but giving one on tooling is questionable. Setting up a project with zig build is so much cleaner than using CMake, Make, pkgconf or any other external tool bs when I have to use C or C++. Also the LSP gives a tutorial even for Sublime Text on how to set it up even though it's not the most used editor. The error messages most of time are much more readable than what you get when a C++ template code fails.

Crystal not requiring brackets when calling a function is actually not a good thing - it means that passing a function as an argument into another function is harder, because by default the function will be called and the value passed in, so you need a workaround (as with Ruby). Crystal is not like Haskell where a function with no arguments is actually just a value

@dragonyeet2273

Ай бұрын

The intention is that you should use blocks to pass functions. Thereby is is sorta by design that you shouldnt pass a function as an argument, instead it should be passed as a block argument.

@thomasgeorge5261

Ай бұрын

@@dragonyeet2273 how about if you want to pass multiple functions?

@dragonyeet2273

Ай бұрын

@@thomasgeorge5261 , never had that scenario. Luckily is a block when it is parssed by a method a proc and you could pass multiple procs to a method using normal arguments. If I have a method called boo, it is a simple as foo = ->boo. And now foo is a proc of the method boo or a function pointer in other words.

+1 for Gleam, but wish Clojure had been in here. I guess 2007 is a too old, but 1.0.0 was much more recent. I think it would be interesting to compare some 'old' languages still in use, but with their newer features. Think Fortran, C, Common Lisp, Erlang, Haskell, Ada, Smalltalk, Pascal for example. For example, I think CL's tooling is superb, and Haskell's is now good even though it had a bad reputation. Smalltalk is OOP, but not as you know it, and Erlang has some of the cleanest loveliest code I've ever seen. Fortran is quick and I find it quite simple to read for whatever reason. If you need the list to be 10, then perhaps add Forth, Cobol, Eiffel or Prolog if you're up for a challenge.

Swift’s sourcekit lsp works with dependencies after you build the whole project, because it does not have a background indexing unfortunately I use it daily with neovim, it’s still not perfect (for example renaming does not work and you have to rebuild the project sometimes for it to be able to use dependencies) but it’s good and definitely better than using an Xcode If you have any issues with setting it up with vim, I’ll be happy to help

@tom-delalande

2 ай бұрын

Thanks for the help, I did rebuild the whole project. I think something went wrong with my tool-chain where the one used in the CLI was different to the one used by the LSP. I reinstalled Xcode from scratch and the whole toolchain. But I still couldn't get it working. I think this issue was a weird combination of Sonoma + something running on Rosetta + Xcode conflicting with the toolchain. I definitely will keep trying to fix it because I want to keep using Swift

@NamanGoel34

Ай бұрын

@@tom-delalandeAlso a correction: Swift doesn’t have exceptions. It has errors as values. But it has syntax sugar to make it look like exceptions. It has a similar syntax sugar around it’s Maybe type by giving you a first-class nullable type.

@NamanGoel34

Ай бұрын

@@tom-delalandeAnd a correction for what felt like an implicit assumption: Swift does not have a garbage collector. It uses automatic reference counting by default, and you can opt into some ownership features or unsafe manual pointers for performance.

@NamanGoel34

Ай бұрын

TLDR; I would argue Swift has the same level of safety as Rust. This was not true for multi-threaded swift until recently. Since v5.10, there is a flag for strict concurrency checking.

Love your review. Could do video on V Lang? Thx

@karolkurek9201

25 күн бұрын

I really love V Lang

Gleam needs more packages and then I will use it all the time. But it's new so that should happen as more start to use it.

I think 04:14 as well as other reasons justify Go’s approach to error handling.

With your preferred features, I guess F#, Haskell and OCaml could shine here.

@mikkelens

Ай бұрын

I’d like all those way more if they weren’t GC’d. I want to try haskell just bc its haskell, but if I wanted to write something in a GC’d language I think I’d try Gleam instead

@mikkelens

Ай бұрын

I’m implying here that 1) none of these could ever be compile time gc’d like rust and 2) I think runtime, stop-the-world GC is kind of unnecessary and bad, and 3) I see little reason to adopt a GC’d language in spite of this

@thedeemon

Ай бұрын

@@mikkelens If you google "Oxidizing OCaml" you'll find some interesting work going on in OCaml moving it closer to Rust's memory ownership, borrowing etc. But I don't know any details on the status and progress. Regardless, all mentioned languages have modern generational & incremental GCs with very short pauses (OCaml was quite famous for its good GC on a single core). Unless you make video games or something like them, the fear of GC might be rather irrational. Gleam might enjoy Erlang's thread-local GC that doesn't stop the whole world, but it's still just interpreted bytecode, so overall performance of actual code might be much worse than in mentioned languages.

Weird that performance characteristics or build artifact size didn't factor into your grade for each language. Regardless, pretty cool, thanks!

is there any reason you didn't refactor your code to avoid this insane nesting?

I like mundane programming for work, fun programming for side projects

How would you make a cross-platform app? I need an android and iOS app, but only have time to learn 1 new language. Any suggestions? So far it's react native or flutter

@thedeemon

Ай бұрын

Flutter seems like a good choice here.

@tom-delalande

Ай бұрын

Kotlin also let’s you do this with Kotlin Compose. It’s in Beta for iOS but it looks very promising

@gaxkiller

Ай бұрын

Using Flutter for 5 years now, very pleasant experience (it uses dart in case you don't know). Just don't go with react native.

@cryogensxu

Ай бұрын

Kotlin if you're not scared of experimental WASM for web. Flutter if you want some footshooting

Rust is just so much joy to use, that's why I use it in all my personal projects.

i tried zig recently, and i completely agree. string manipulation is often the first thing people try with a new language, and it's easily the worst part of zig, which gave me a really bad impression. the concept is brilliant, but actually using the tools feels like pulling teeth.

People hate on go, but in the end its the most productive new language. and i think forcing you to deal with errors immediately is less error prone

11:18 I will explain the error in a simple way. Basically you were trying to access Pointer field when the @typeInfo(@TypeOf(memory)) was a Struct. Simply you were trying to access something that was not there. Hope it helps

A question, Which is the fastest ??

You are missing one language that aims to be a C-Cpp alternative: Odin, it looks a lot like Go, but with custom allocators for memory management.

11:23 zig has union types which are actually tagged unions under the hood. If you try to access a member of an union which is not active it will result in an error. You have to use a switch statement (an if statement would probably work too) to check which union member is active and only then you can use its payload. Example: const Event = union { key_down: i32, mouse_moved: struct { x: i32, y: i32 }, }; var event = Event{ .key_down = 65 }; // 'a' button pressed, .key_down is 'active', accessing any other union field is an error switch (event) { .key_down => |key_code| { // do something with the keycode }, .mouse_moved => |pos| { // do something with the mouse position }, }

@gaxkiller

Ай бұрын

That is called exhaustive pattern matching if you are interested about the name :) very good feature more and more language start to add or already have. Of course python is not one of those one lol

@maksymiliank5135

Ай бұрын

@@gaxkiller yes exhaustive pattern matching is related to tagged unions but the error was specifically because of the access of inactive union member. Zig allows you to access a union field if it is active without pattern matching

@fredesch3158

Ай бұрын

@@gaxkiller That's not exhaustive pattern matching, that's accessing the wrong field of the union.

@gaxkiller

Ай бұрын

@@fredesch3158 This problem does not exists in good language, not aware of that

@fredesch3158

Ай бұрын

@@gaxkiller What? It definitely does, if you try to access the wrong field from a union this is a standard error? You smoking?

21:17 Bro insulted me without even knowing me 😀

To be fair, I don't know if there was a much better way to handle that rust match nest. The language kinda seems to promote it

Why show a starling when talking about swift, this is so confusing 😅

Dart is awesome and very underused, prob. because people think it can only be applied to Flutter

It's kind of sad that Dart's sound null safety wasn't even mentioned. Also, Dart 3 has a much more modern syntax than Dart 2 with pattern matching, destructring etc...

interesting how you mention errors being cryptic with pretty much every language, but yet you somehow managed to get away with never getting into borrow checker errors? is it because you clone everything?

@SirRichard94

Ай бұрын

tbf rust errors are very descriptive and even suggest fixes.

For Go you should have used scanner instead of reading the file and splitting by line

Nice. But flexibility and GC are good things… Plus Julia looks better than a crab 😊

I think you would like the collections library in Scala

datastar video coming up or you're waiting the v1 release?

@tom-delalande

2 ай бұрын

I've never heard of this, but it looks interesting

Programming languages really are subjective. Most of the things you had as confusing about Crystal are super obvious to me and it's by far the easiest to understand/read language for me. Compared to Go or Kotlin which I find hard to read/follow. I feel like most modern languages requires an LSP to use, except for Crystal where I never use one, or really any other tooling other than syntax highlighting. Dart especially feels unwritable without an LSP.

Smalltalk (an improvement over its successors).

hey chief, what about php?

Nice comparison. It's a bit of a shame that the code looked almost identical in structure in most languages. When you know a language a bit better, it will influence your design strategy and change the overall form of the program. Looking at Julia for instance, no mention of multiple dispatch. Suggesting Julia for scripting halfway between Bash and other languages is absurd, considering JIT latency. Also, ties to underlying ecosystems like JVM or Zig's interface to C are glossed over as "not natively supported", whereas for many cases this ecosystem is a deciding factor for choosing a language.

11:19 That's tagged union stuff (I didn't look at your code, oops). It's basically telling you, that you gave it icecream and now want to get back the lamp that you totally gave it. just C: union Vehicles { Car car; Wheelbarrow wb; Bicycle bike; }; enum VehicleType { VT_CAR, VT_WHEELBARROW, VT_BICYCLE }; struct Vehicle { enum VehicleType active_type; union Vehicles data; };

What about ROC?

Dart mentioned