Support the channel on Patreon! A place where everyone is treated as a unique and special individual that I am individually thankful for! Especially you [INSERT PATRON NAME HERE]: www.patreon.com/ArchitectofGames On the other hand, twitter is full of enough bots and bluechecks always saying the same thing that it may as well be full of clones: twitter.com/Thefearalcarrot

@mattapropism

5 ай бұрын

Hey that’s me!

@PainterVierax

5 ай бұрын

@@ITGuru42 This. And I never heard of Doom-clone at all, we used the term Doom-like to talk about FPS which is not the same meaning at all. Nowadays when we talk about clones, we don't talk about inspiration and evolution of a genre but copying the exact formula often without thinking about what makes the original a hit, hence why adjectives like soulless, bland or uninspired are associated with the term clone. This video failed to properly distinguish what is considered a clone and what isn't to the common folks.

@firebal6129

5 ай бұрын

Consider moving to Kofi instead!

@luckygreentiger

5 ай бұрын

Evolution, not revolution; iteration not repetition... just how life and art works...

@thereisnospace

5 ай бұрын

did you just say "20th century trivia from before i was born?" but like doom was like 10 years ago am i rite? its like not 30 years ago... **wilts in timelaps**

Simply put: when I find a game I really like, I don't want it to be the only one, I want to play more games like that.

@oneish7454

5 ай бұрын

Same, which is why for me, Blasphemous has been filling in the void that Castlevania left

@leithaziz2716

5 ай бұрын

Me personally, I want more Sekiro-clones. You get so many Souls-likes, it would be nice to see the other stuff being imitated. The Wukong game coming in the future, and Kannagi Usagi is the closest the fandom has gotten to more Sekiro. However, it should be mentioned that some games gain novelty and stay fresh by not having many games of its types. The worst case scenario is you get enough retreads of a formula that you get burnt out of it, hence the hard fatigue many people feel with Assassin's Creed or Call of Duty. Even when they're good, it can be hard to care. If you wanna look at films, the MCU destroyed itself by becoming extremely formulaic across all its different properties.

@jurtheorc8117

5 ай бұрын

Solidly concentrated sentence. It's why i try to spread the word on all manner of games as much that i like. From Clash: Artifacts of Chaos and Soulstice, to The Dishwasher: Vampire Smile + Charlie Murder and Cookie Cutter. I don't want to be annoying when i do so, but just spreading the word on games helps a lot in 1: helping the creators to hopefully do more cool stuff in the future and B: help *receiving* suggestions for cool things to play.

@RegalRoyalWasTaken

5 ай бұрын

Thymesia is a little Sekiro-like, ya might like it.@@leithaziz2716

@ryszakowy

5 ай бұрын

yeah but not like call of duty was ruined or dead space we want the good ones not crap

The "Cloning" of video games is basically the evolution of genres and subgenres

@ArchitectofGames

5 ай бұрын

hmm the video would have been much shorter if I'd just said it like this - now I feel dumb

@Guardian-of-Light137

5 ай бұрын

​@@ArchitectofGames Before I say anything. I respect your channel and will delete this comment if you have any problem with it just say the word. That being said. I'd like to direct everyone to sovietwomble's 3 part video essay on Day Z. As he goes into a brilliant analogy regarding how genere's and sub genere's come about. Primarily the survival game genere.

@MehnixIsThatGuy

5 ай бұрын

Humans really are just a Feature-Creeped Clone of Chimpanzees.

@powerofanime1

5 ай бұрын

​@@ArchitectofGames Hey now, seeing the thought process is just as helpful as a simple maxim. Your format really helps me - an ignorant pleb who is eternally curious of the "how" and "why" of video game design - understand the ideas involved.

@dontstealmydiamondsv3156

5 ай бұрын

@@ArchitectofGames Before I say anything. I respect your channel and will delete this comment if you have any problem with it just say the word. That being said. I'd like to direct everyone to the Game Maker's Toolkit youtube channel for no real reason

I remember a game dev I follow on twitter talking about what a shame it was that Shadow of Mordor patented its rivals mechanic. They described games as an "ongoing conversation." The patent essentially stops the idea in its tracks because no one else can bounce the idea around and add to it.

@CrashSable

5 ай бұрын

The patent was always pretty easy to get around. WB only have a leg to stand on in court if your shameless rip-off LOOKS like Shadow of Mordor (i.e. it has a screen that displays the rivals in a hierarchy). Don't include that screen, but keep all the other mechanics that made it fun to begin with and you could do what you want. Even if they tried to sue you, all you'd have to say is "I gave my enemies randomly generated traits... other games did that long before yours did, bro"

@TwilightFlower9

5 ай бұрын

@@CrashSable Not really. WB has more money for lawyers than you do. Even if they're legally in the wrong, you won't be able to afford your lawyer long enough for that to matter.

@greyrifterrellik5837

5 ай бұрын

​@@TwilightFlower9Depends how solid your case is. If the law is in your favor enough, then NO amount of lawyer money can get them out of it, as you're just guaranteed to win if it gets to court.

@DreadKyller

5 ай бұрын

@@greyrifterrellik5837 Their point is that companies with lots of money can afford to delay proceedings almost indefinitely and absorb the costs associated with doing so, and cause the other party to run out of money before the trial even begins. Large companies are notorious for using every trick they can to prolong proceedings to make the legal process cost too much for smaller companies to handle, usually ending up in a settlement at worst.

@greyrifterrellik5837

5 ай бұрын

@@DreadKyller While it'd be stupid in most situations, I would assume there eventually reaches a point where it's so utterly one-sided of a case that you don't even *need* to hire a lawyer in order to win. Granted anything short of 100% guaranteed victory means you should definitely get a lawyer, but my point was that no amount of money can make a company *completely* invincible.

This is why patents for games is such a destructive idea. Patenting mechanics or features in terms kills games from "cloning" you without getting into legal ramifications, which in terms stifles overall creativity and innovation as people aren't allowed to innovate on existing ideas.

@QueueWithACapitalQ

5 ай бұрын

Exactly, genras wouldnt exist ans anything within it would be patented by the first mega corp to do so

@TuffMelon

5 ай бұрын

*Stares at the Nemesis system*

@sahilrahman5066

5 ай бұрын

@@TuffMelon i was just about to mention that fucking piece of shit

@scary5455

5 ай бұрын

welcome to the music industry

@MerlinTheCommenter

5 ай бұрын

They shouldn’t even be possible. I’m TTRPGs it’s actually not legal to patent rules, because that’s how US law works: you can’t trademark or copyright rules, just how something is written word for word. So you could say “this gun kills this enemy” and I could copy you by saying “this baseball bat puts this goon to sleep” if that makes sense to you.

Petition to rename the Soulslike genre to "rolly-rolly-slash-slash"

@TheOrian34

5 ай бұрын

And roguelikes "die and retry"

@DatRandomInternetDude

5 ай бұрын

@@TheOrian34infinite purgatory

@someguyontheinternet9637

5 ай бұрын

Too long. Just call them "Rollers". @@DatRandomInternetDude

@meeese6_

5 ай бұрын

i-frame rollers

@notproductiveproductions3504

4 ай бұрын

Weave N Slash

Yooka Laylee is interesting because the games serve as examples of both bad clones and good clones. As shown in the video, the first Yooka Laylee is basically just a copy of Banjo Kazooie that does nothing to distinguish itself or iterate on the formula. However, Yooka Laylee and the Impossible Lair, the sequel, goes in a completely different direction. This game is instead a clone of the Donkey Kong Country games, but this time around, it seems like they learned their lesson and actually gave it its own identity. They kept the great platforming and gorgeous environments of the DKC games, but it does a lot to iterate and even improve on them. For example, the overworld map is probably one of the best overworlds I've ever seen in a platformer, and the way you can manipulate it to discover alternate levels is quite smart. Not to mention the fact that you're able to play the final level from the start of the game, it's just very difficult without completing the other ones. The game has proven to me that the devs are capable of innovation, and not just pure nostalgia bait, so I'm looking forward to seeing what else they make in the future.

@ArchitectofGames

5 ай бұрын

agreed! the impossible lair is surprisingly great - I really should've thought to mention it in the vid actually!

@bastian1870

5 ай бұрын

Watching this video and reading this comment while coming to the end of yooka laylee impossible lair. Completely agree about the innovation, I knew I was walking into something to scratch the dk country-like but the overworld was so enjoyable and I was pleasantly surprised.

@jgunner280

5 ай бұрын

I need to still play Impossible Lair. But the first entry really set me up for bad expectations. Its almost painful to even hear that its "too close" from the video. No its really not, I'm convinced they didn't fully get the point of even marketing back to one of their golden games. They tie your momentum down with a bar in a 3D platformer FFS, as if they came from an alternative universe where we all loved a M64 where Mario had to catch his breath after two long consecutive long jumps, or Spyro lost his charge every 5 seconds. Then used a handful of level remixes to compare itself with games that ran off a basis of a large variety, and aesthetic charm. I'm not expecting a small team to do 30 levels and 8 different collectible formats, but come on, 4 that give me "a twist" and some bogged down heavy with constrictive minigames? Okay, but at least the experience was really tight and refined... right? Right!? Eh, we know how that ended. On the other end, I adored Hat In Time, because even as a smaller entity that relied on remixed level, the way it drove variety and genuinely wanted you to move and play with its levels, was a blast. I still loved things in Yooka-laylee, and it had some of its heart and charm design on the right notes, but dang the final execution just felt so wrong in so many ways. Impossible Lair I've heard nothing but good things about, and probably owe it a chance though.

@MegaDeox

5 ай бұрын

I love Yooka Laylee and don't like Impossible Lair and no one can change my mind

@JBravoEcho09

5 ай бұрын

I also think that Yooka Laylee also copied the worst elements of the genre (overcollecting, extremely large worlds). What was nice about Banjo that wasn't replicated across the sequel and DK 64 is that the level size was just right and didnt feel repetitive. The frustration I felt with Y-L is that the first world alone felt way too big. Why is everything so spread out? Why is there so much to do? I want to move on to the next biome; please let me leave. B-K worlds usually didn't overstay their welcome and the challenges were situated next to one another so that you could dive immediately into another challenge. This is something that I felt A Hat In Time understood.

Sometimes triple A developers abandon the wrong mechanics and clones can flesh them out and create a variety that’s just right

@Zectifin

5 ай бұрын

that too. look at nintendo. sometimes we just want a sequel to metroid/zelda/mario, and instead nintendo always has to do something new and changes the formula to never be the same. So some indie dev who has the same idea and sees that there are a lot of people with similar opinions and so a market for it creates something inspired by it and fills the need for a sequel we've been waiting for 10+ years.

@LimeyLassen

5 ай бұрын

It's kinda like big studios and small studios have a symbiotic relationship. The little guys experiment with new mechanics and genres, and the big guys experiment with new technologies and engines.

I would say Lies of P's gimmick to differentiate from souls games was a more apparent emphasis on story.

@luketfer

5 ай бұрын

This, Lies of P is VERY straightforward about it's story, the only thing a NG+ feature allows is that P (or rather the player) now understands what the other puppets are saying during the fights.

@maxentirunos

5 ай бұрын

Which is also why it is way more linear compared to a Fromsoft, with no place where you can shortcut one or multiple zones. There is also way more gameplay options than compared to other FS souls games (others than Elden Ring). Also people saying that since it got a parrying mecanic, that make it a sekiro clone in gameplay despite having said parry mechanic working completely differently.

@Digger-Nick

5 ай бұрын

Fromsoft could learn a thing or two about storytelling

@brianpearson8552

5 ай бұрын

@@Digger-Nick What the hell mate? Are you nutts, they are incrediable story tellers. They just like to make the story something you find and figure out for yourself where as lies of P took the traditional approach and focused on the story. (Fromsoft's Storytelling breeds a massive community of people that love to solve their stories so its also great for engagement.)

@Digger-Nick

5 ай бұрын

@@brianpearson8552 Fromsoft has 0 storytelling capability my guy. Sekiro is their ONLY game that actually tells a story and it's just decent. Look at elden ring, attaching random and out of order sticky notes across the entire world and having a paragraph of text etched into every single item in the game is not "storytelling" lmao. Outer Wilds would like a word... The game doesn't even have a journal to track quest information or lore you discovered. Fromsoft is too lazy and why even bother when their braindead drone fans will always go out of their way to defend them no matter what anyways right?

Remnant gets dunked on so much but I thoroughly enjoyed it and really want to point out some of the key things they did very right. 1. Weapon mods system. Basically what Elden Ring's ashes of war system is. All non-unique guns can take mods that change its skill attack. This was implemented in the first game itself, and I always wished something similar would come to a mainstram souls game and it did! 2. Seamless co-op. The co-op in Remnant is extremely well refined. Playing this game with a friend or friends is AMAZING. I could breeze through areas without anything memorable happening solo but with friends it was an extremely fun and memorable experience. Especially the mechanic where you can use one of your dragon hearts (this game's estus flask) to revive a teammate. I was hoping this would be default in Elden Ring, and was disappointed when I found out it wasnt. Cheers to the developer of the seamless co-op mod though, they single handedly brought this experience to Elden Ring. 3. Static armour weight capacity. In most souls games, it takes investment into a certain stat to let you dodge swiftly with heavy equipment. But as a downside, one can dump points into that stat and roll around in the heaviest armour in game, basically giving them a huge advantage in trading hits. In Remnant, you can't really increase your equip load without either sacrificing a very precious accessory slot or investing points in a perk although even with both of them, you can only do at best fat rolls in the heaviest armours in the game (as opposed to not being able to roll at all). Although the armour significantly increases your defense, it does take away a lot in return when gave weight (lol) to the decision of wearing it. 4. Alternative ways of playing .There's a ring that disables the generic flask based healing and instead gives you a short health regen when you perfectly dodge an attack (when you i-frame through it). Inspite of being a shooter, the melee mechanics were extremely satisfying and every weapon felt like it had a place. The most basic pistol or sword could still carry you in the late-game no problem. This game was honestly the most fun I've had with friends outside of Divinity Original Sin and Elden Ring seamless co-op, and everything I've mentioned was all there in the first game. I havent played the second game so far but me and my buddies have high hopes for it when we do find the time.

@PedricCuf

5 ай бұрын

Fully agree with you. I can see why people might bounce off of Remnant, but it's an excellent co-op game, and it's a semi looter-shooter that respects the player and doesn't yank them around with subscriptions, microtransactions, and other junk. It's just a good game that wants you to have a good time. I played it through with my girlfriend, and we enjoyed it immensely.

"So why am I talking about this weird piece of 20th century trivia from before I was born?" *withers and dies*

@raulperez375

5 ай бұрын

nooo too real 😭

Inspiration is like the term I hear in TTRPGs of the of "Yes, and..." where you take what's already presented and instead of dismissing it, add to it. That addition, and understanding of what's going on, separates something that's "inspired by" from something that's simply "a copy of". A bad clone is often one that takes the surface level impression of why something is successful, and simply mimics it without understanding why people actually like it, often in ways that actively harm the core concept, the whole "just file off the serial number and nobody will notice it's just the same thing but repackaged" thing. Inspiration and iteration is a matter of "I like this, I want more of it, what can I do with it?", and too many people fail to properly take into consideration that last part.

@jurtheorc8117

5 ай бұрын

Good way of thinking. Positive and productive instead of looking down upon something and talking about looking down upon it, or not doing anything with it.

@Lishtenbird

5 ай бұрын

And this superficial cloning happens in all media - especially competitive ones, like anime. For example, all those "magical girl show, but dark and violent" copies that had no idea what made Madoka Magica so impactful, and kept copying and amplifying random parts of it. Unfortunately, some of these also get popular enough, because a part of the audience - similarly - is too young and doesn't have enough experience to understand what made them great either, but want "more", so will still be satisfied with a worse imitation without the actual "and...".

@luketfer

5 ай бұрын

However there is also a time when DMing that the words need to be "No, but..." and simply "No" otherwise you campaign ends up being a complete fucking mess OR you end up in situations where something goes awry because of one asshole at the table or because you, as the DM, have hard set boundaries within your world. "Ok so this is a Dwarf only campaign so I need everyone to make a Dwarf" "Oh but I want to be an Elf!" "No, that's not the point of this campaign, you can be a Dwarf who is an abassador to the Elves but you can't play an Elf" "oh but I really wanted to be an Elf" "Well I'm sorry that doesn't fit and everybody else is onboard with this, if you want you can step out for this campaign and come back when we finish it or you can make a Dwarf".

@justinsinke2088

5 ай бұрын

@@luketfer You're kinda missing the point here. I wasn't speaking for the whole of TTRPGs because this wasn't a video about TTRPGs. I was using that piece of GM advice for comparison because the sentiment of "take what's been given and roll with it" is a healthier mindset in regards to video game clones because "it's like this familiar thing, so it's unoriginal and therefore bad" is a bad mental blanket statement to have.

@TheRiptideRaptor

5 ай бұрын

I know it from improv, and have heard some people with improv talk about it in the context of TTRPGs, but it's interesting to see how far it's spread to be mentioned like this.

Yeah, I always felt that if a game's legacy can simply die off just because of clones, then the legacy probably isn't that worth it anyway. Especially Lies of P, it was like "when mom says we have Bloodborne at home, and after begrudgingly going home to try it out, mom's actually got a point".

@Zectifin

5 ай бұрын

if people remember a game that was inspired/a clone of another game more than the original than they did something right. Nobody remember infiniminer. Everyone remembers minecraft. NES Mario wasn't the original side scroller platform, but it blew so many other ones before it out of the water that its kind of the origin point that everyone remembers. Super metroid didn't invent back tracking world map because you got new abilities that allowed you to reach new areas, but it took several ideas from the previous metroid and other games with exploration and new abilities that allowed progress and mashed them together to make a masterpiece. Symphony of the night was really just super metroid with voice acting and some RPG style stat additions, but everyone loves that so much they've named the genre after the game that started it and one of its best clones.

@iCarus_A

5 ай бұрын

@@Zectifinthis is why i hate copyrighting game mechanics so much -- the game that pioneers a certain mechanic is almost never the game that does it best

@akirachisaka9997

5 ай бұрын

@@iCarus_A Exactly! Especially when it's a game mechanic that's vague and a shower thought, like "trading card game" or "procedurally generated villains". Games usually aren't good because they have those premises, but because they can execute them well.

@Lagrangeify

5 ай бұрын

@@akirachisaka9997 Great points. It's an ugly business, trying to patent concepts when the fact is that everything that has ever occurred, however innovative it seems in the present moment, however well it's executed, didn't just erupt spontaneously. There's always a precursor. Turtles all the way down.

@N4m3lesS_1

4 ай бұрын

In this Special Case (and certainly in some others too) i could not play bloodborne because i only have a PC. I watched Lets Plays of it, sure, but that does not make you feel how the game really is like, so Lies of P felt rather fresh to me. It reminded me more of DS1 but "better", or the best parts of it. For me the world was new, the weapon system and the Legion Arm and Quarz Abilities were also something new (maybe i lived in a bubble but hey, something reached me ;) ). I am not sure if i would have played Bloodborne because of how brutally hard it seemed compared to Dark Souls (no blocks, no magic), and i never intend on playing Sekiro, i know my Limits ;) But i also think cloning is good because just some little twists in the Setting or how the cobat works or how forgiving the game is speaks to another audience that might give more titles of that specific genre a chance or opens up the idea of trying something new once in a while. I really enjoyed playing Ender Lilies. The Design, the Music the World, just beautiful. And to me it felt like "just hard enough". So keep on recycling even old ideas! *thumbs up*

12:08 I feel like saying that starbound failed due to being a terraria clone stretched across multiple planets is a bit of a stretch. During the beta, starbound was actually an amazing game, and that magic can still be recreated today with mods or backporting, and as someone who played terraria first, once i got those mods, i actually ended up putting more time into starbound than terraria. Where starbound truly failed was with its developers, Chucklefish studios. Chucklefish was an absolutely AWFUL company, hiring minors for "exposure" instead of money, "forgetting" to pay their full time employees, and just being an all around terrible place, which lead to the creative death of starbound in the 1.0 update where they shoehorned in a shitty ass story and thought it would make their game better and get them more money.

@sarraceniaporrot

5 ай бұрын

Agreed, starbound could’ve been a GREAT clone! But chucklefish ruined it in so so so many ways. Thanks to modding, I honestly do prefer starbound over terraria even today… if only because starbound is so easy to mod, and as a result has more building materials. I just like to make giant superstructures in it, and the plethora of race mods make that very possible! I liked exploring the different planets, but because of chucklefish’s horrible practices that were anti-employee and also anti-*player*, the game crashed and burned. It sucks :(

@PainterVierax

5 ай бұрын

there are a lot of dubious takes in this video essay

@vizthex

5 ай бұрын

i bought starbound because it was terraria in space and am still disappointed with the massive pivot the 1.0 launch pulled.

@zooker7938

5 ай бұрын

I really love the concept of Starbound, and its soundtrack is incredible, but I just can't get through it. The story is so boring, and the planet variety leaves a lot to be desired.

@vizthex

5 ай бұрын

@@zooker7938 exactly. They didn't iterate and build enough upon what makes terraria amazing to really stand out - even in early access - so it just fell to the wayside alongside everything else.

Here's an interesting alternative perspective on Jedi Survivor in particular: When I played Sekiro, I distinctly remember texting my friends "somebody has to make a star wars game with this combat system". The focus on parrying and 1-hit kills makes the Sekiro formula PERFECT for modeling lightsaber battles, and I must not have been the only one who thought so because Jedi Fallen Order went into production almost immediately after Sekiro's release and delivered expertly on the concept, with some reasonable adjustments in the name of playability to accomodate Star Wars's large audience. So while it's true that it's a pretty faithful clone and does not do much to distinguish itself from its inspiration, instead of viewing that as "game copying popular game" there's another perfectly valid interpretation of "popular game found a formula that would have been used for this setting all along had it been discovered sooner". Like, I would be SHOCKED if any future Star Wars jedi-focused game comes out that don't rely almost exclusively on the Sekiro formula, at least for combat. If the Sekiro formula had been discovered sooner, I am dead certain that Jedi Knight, Force Unleashed, Knights of the Old Republic, and maybe even Lego Star Wars would have been using it. I can absolutely see a future where in a decade or so we stop calling this style of games "sekiro clones" and instead call them "lightsaber games".

@terrabits

5 ай бұрын

Indeed, that could be a interesting evolution, having more " intense duels fights" than Fallen Order had (I didn't play Survivor). Would be interesting to see if they could try more varied force habilities too, something like the powers in Control. But, if they keep the Fallen Order formula, making the platforming less finicky would help a lot.

Crazy how this video came out less than a month before palworld absolutely smashed into the gaming scene

@alanamarko

3 ай бұрын

difference palworld is one of the bad clones that isn't adding anything new or interesting to the things its shamelessly copying. it's just a shitty grindy survival craft game that's sort of pokemon and sort of breath of the wild but worse in all aspects.

Interestingly enough, in my part of Germany, we never called them Doom clones. I'm pretty certain we simply called them Ego-Shooters (it's a German thing), even in 94. So it's wild for me that the English speaking sphere called them "doom clones".

@SaxoraMcOhn

3 ай бұрын

Das liegt daran das Doom und Doom 2 bei uns bis 2011 auf dem Index waren.

I think something which might be an important thing to think about is also that a lot of these more modern clones might end up being played by people who never played their inspirations. For example, Pillars of eternity obviously and knowingly takes a lot of it's gameplay from old isometric CRPG's from the late 90's/early 2000's, but I'd never actually played any of those beofre I played pillars, so I didn't have any reference point or nostalgia beyond pillars itself. The reason I got interested in those older games was BECAUSE I played a more modern 'clone', and I'd be surprised if I was the only person with a similar experience.

@jurtheorc8117

5 ай бұрын

This is a very solid take. Where it concerns for example the Character Action or Hack-and-Slash genre, i first properly came into contact with it through the Darksiders series. They're an amalgamation of influences between each game so far: Stuff like tone being akin to Legacy of Kain, combat close to DmC, gnarly art direction like World of Warcraft, dungeons like Legend of Zelda, and short segments of third-person shooting like Gears of War. The second one had hints of Prince of Persia in the platforming and a big fantasy RPG/Diablo with the loot. Up to that point, i had never played or rarely looked into (or in some cases, barely even heard of) : - The likes of Legacy of Kain - Prince of Persia - Devil May Cry - Legend of Zelda. And i fupping loved it. The series' fate hung in the balance for a while after THQ went belly-up. A third Darksiders that released somewhere in... 2018? went a more Souls-like way for combat, and had a more Metroidvania structure than a Zelda-like level structure. Which was pretty divisive (to say the least). So the devs later added an option to make it feel more like the first two games. It's not an in-depth overhaul, but it showed willingness to listen. So did the Keepers of the Void DLC, which from what i've heard feel like proper dungeons with puzzles and ways to use the weapons/powers for puzzles. And Darksiders Genesis, a prequel, went an isometric view and option for co-op while also adding a choosable level structure from a hub level. The Darksiders' series identity seems like a pretty fluid and ever-changing one, but there is something nigh intangible that can still be called Darksiders that brings it all together when done well. And the hack-and-slash/character action combat + puzzles will always be part of that. The other games that Darksiders takes inspiration from may have nearly perfected a lot of stuff or done them more in-depth. Like 2's parkour traversal compared to Prince of Persia, or 1's entire combat system compared to DMC and GoW, solid as it is. And sometimes puzzle objects and dungeons compared to Legend of Zelda as a whole. But i'm of firm belief that a game company should be allowed and encouraged to properly make its own journey as well. To clarify a bit what I mean: A team doesn't immediately have the history of learning that for example Nintendo has under its belt, with all the successes, mistakes, developments and relationships between people that it required to make the game(s). If i had to put my thoughts in a more concise way, it may have to be like this. Darksiders gave me an experience only Darksiders can give. And I want to look at it for being the way it is. Whenever I may get bored playing Darksiders 1, as much as i love it, it's not because it's *not* like God of War or Zelda or DMC in that moment. I may have played it for a bit too long, the section wasn't as well designed as it could have been, or something else. Or perhaps it's something as cynically viewed as the gameplay loop of the moment not being as fun as i remember, or just something as fleeting as the gameplay being at a lower point in the moment. And the inverse is also true. That can be viewed from a critical lens at the gameplay as a whole, of course. But from that critical lens still, expressed subjectively or in an attempt at being objective, i'd still want to view it from being *Darksiders*.

@leithaziz2716

5 ай бұрын

So weirdly enough, I was introduced to the classic God of War games before I got into DMC much later. I don't think it really matters nowadays as I found appreciation for both series (the GoW games have usually have better level design and puzzles/exploration while DMC has one of the most in-depth combat systems I know. Having Vergil is also a big plus for your series, but I digress).

@typemasters2871

5 ай бұрын

I never played Paper Mario TTYD (looking forward to the remake) I had heard about Bug Fables and how it’s “Classic Paper Mario” So I bought Bug Fables, played Bug Fables, enjoyed Bug Fables, and at the end I went “I FINALLY understand the hype behind classic Paper Mario”

@Zectifin

5 ай бұрын

exactly. I grew up playing DOS Xcom. I don't like the remakes as much, but I'm glad theres a new generation of turn based tactics fans and XCOM pretty much revived the subgenre and we have a bunch of games that are copying the XCOM remakes or trying to purposely throw back to the originals. More is always good in my book.

@levilukeskytrekker

5 ай бұрын

I was actually gonna comment this! Only, I was also going to mention that accessibility to older titles (whether because of copyright, a lack of porting, accessibility in the medical sense, or the seldom-mentioned but widely prevalent reality of economic constraints) can also mean younger generations cannot play them at all. Just as one example, I have seizures, so a wide breadth of older games that have flashy hit confirmation effects, in the style of old arcade games, are essentially off the table for me. Most often, though, I find it's just impossible-or very difficult-to get my hands on old titles without pursuing emulation as a hobby (and having the associated free time). It's obviously not a new observation, but you can't pick up an old game the way you can pick up an old book-specialized hardware or software (usually both) is required in combination with a lot of available time to tinker. Sometimes, too, there simply is a lack of interest in older titles-I love Stardew Valley, but I have yet to see anything of Harvest Moon that makes me feel there's something specific for me personally to go back for (also, I've tried to play Doom, and I very much recognize its influence and appreciate its lack of hitscan enemies, but I still can't pretend to like it or be impressed by it in the way, say, I love classic Mario. At the tender age of 22, I also feel the same apathy towards Call of Duty, although I'm less clear how Call of Duty propelled its own genre forward). I definitely want to dig deeper into Metroidvanias because of Hollow Knight, though.

Wargroove is an odd one to include, because it made some significant improvements over advance wars to cement it being more than just a clone and to show it improved on the formula. The biggest change being the introduction of the commander unit. They all have the same stats as each other. But your groove (CO power) varies between them, all focused from the unit itself, which helps make it clear what each commander is capable of easily. As opposed to Advance wars map-wide stat buffs that affect different units in different ways. this unit also being a victory/defeat condition if killed and its great cost efficiency (with low resupply cost and self-regen) to be used in combat leads to a great risk/reward, that also serves to speed up competitive games. Allowing multiple objectives and therefore fronts to arise. With turnarounds possible if you neglect to guard your headquarters or commander appropriately. That plus the map design on PvP maps learns from the mistakes of advance wars. Where in AW, a "lost" game can take ages to come to a natural conclusion. because the HQs were placed so far back in the map, with production in front, that you could win and still take a long time to end the game. Wargroove maps put the HQ forwards with production behind. Which leads to much faster games and potential surprise victories. Not to meantion every unit having a unique 'crit' condition to use to your advantage and the masses of custom content and scripting created by the community. It felt like the game was brushed over as being a clone without ever bringing up how it improved on the source material.

Ok, as a Swede, I could'nt help but chuckle when you used Gävlebocken as a stand-in for a bonfire. (And its a little bit ironic given that it managed to stay unlit this year)

@AnotherDuck

5 ай бұрын

Yeah, that was a hit-n-burn.

I personally LOVE the Remnant game as they're good games in their own respect. And I personally do think that between R1 and R2, the boss designs of R2 as well as exploration and build customization are significantly better then that of R1 while also keeping what made me like R1 in the first place. And their latest DLC was made with the players feedback of how much they liked the linearity but still exploratory nature of the Marrow start for Losomn, but bigger and more interesting to explore. I do definitely think the devs have a good formula and since its their second game of 8 devs (and 40+ artists) they did an incredible job. Are there areas to improve? Ofc and they're working tirelessly to improve the game and taking feedback. Hell a feedback I made one time for the challenger archetype was to make the intimidating presence 15 meters instead of 10 so more weapon variety can be used with the archetype and it got added. So I do believe the devs absolutely have the capabilities of making an award winning game, they just need the time and practice to do so

@justinpennington6680

5 ай бұрын

I agree and imo calling it a clone is a stretch. It borrows mechanics from many different games and is it’s own beast in itself. Not a cover shooter, not a souls game, if anything it’s more like a looter shooter if anything. If it came out before souls we’d be calling games “remnant-like”

@chrisdaman4179

5 ай бұрын

Remnant 2 bosses are entirely based on limiting player mobility and not boss strength. Most of the remnant 2 bosses were significant steps backwards design wise. The game is a decent sequel, but the bosses felt like the weakest part of the game.

@justinpennington6680

5 ай бұрын

@@chrisdaman4179 I’m just now about to beat 1. Was gonna play 2 afterwards, that makes me sad. Do they still spam extra enemies outside the boss?

@chrisdaman4179

5 ай бұрын

@@justinpennington6680 yeah, you still get tons of endless ads in some fights. There are decent ways to midigate it, but some bosses get very frustrating. For me it was needlessly limiting the arena to small confined spaces. A huge boss, ape rapid attacks, AND no where to move gets very frustrating. I still think 2 is worth playing though.

@justinpennington6680

5 ай бұрын

@@chrisdaman4179 I’m sure it’s good thanks for the input I don’t mind ads if done well, but sometimes it takes away from the boss itself imo thanks

Bro, I hate how all games are Tennis for 2 clones

@ArchitectofGames

5 ай бұрын

smh everything started going downhill after that cheap knockoff pong came out

@jimijenkins2548

5 ай бұрын

All my homies love Tennis for Two.

I'm reminded of George' Carlin's routine on how every ball sport is a clone of ping pong. Volleyball, for example, is racketless team ping pong played with an elevated net while standing on the table.

@musicexams5258

5 ай бұрын

What did he say about baseball

@Xick

5 ай бұрын

@@musicexams5258 I haven't seen the bit, but that's an easy one: It's ping pong where the player on one side hits the ball too hard every time and everyone else in the room has to chase it down before it rolls under a couch.

@notproductiveproductions3504

3 ай бұрын

Ping pong came *after* tennis tho

I feel the stance on the Jedi series was pretty unfair. Yes, combat definitely draws upon souls (but is unique thanks to the force powers, thank you). However, the game defines itself upon its much more successful synthesis of that with Metroidvania mechanics. You actually get new unique abilities throughout the game in a fun way, and exploration is BETTER than exploration in most souls games, imo.

@gunnarschlichting9886

5 ай бұрын

Yeah, some weird takes in the examples he used. It felt like he was so focused on comparing them to other Souls-likes that he failed to see other sources of inspiration and where they differed (speaking more about Remnant 2 and Jedi here). The reason he seemed to like Lies of P so much is because it's a good Souls-like, whereas he didn't like the others because he wanted them to be more Souls-like as opposed to also Metroidvania-y or 3rd person fps co-op-y.

@RealHero101111

5 ай бұрын

i barely see Jedi Survivor as soulslike at all.

@gunnarschlichting9886

5 ай бұрын

@@RealHero101111 Combat is similar just no stamina, death system is similar, level up system is similar but with abilities instead of stats. It's exploration is more Metroidvania and it's story is a more traditional narrative, but the combat bones are there and the lineage clear. It's more accurate to say it has Souls-like combat rather than Souls-like in general though, I'll give you that. The comparison is legitimate, just overexaggerated and ignores other equally strong inspirations/influences.

@RealHero101111

5 ай бұрын

@@gunnarschlichting9886 i mostly think respawn checkpoints and shortcuts, but everything else feel just outside of it. it more reminds me prince of persia than souls.

I knew the premise of this going in because I *remember* when Doom first came out, and the way everyone was constantly calling FPSes Doom Clones. There were people still using that term as late as 2002 or 2003 in some gaming articles, albeit mostly ones that were out of touch with the way gaming was rapidly changing at the time. Almost any art form will take inspiration from previous works, and if something works, it's going to be repeated in some form. Whole genres of video games exist because of codifiers for that genre, and imitate it because they made it work and work well. A game imitating other games does not by default make it bad or good; it's what they do with it and how they alter things that can make a huge difference. Sometimes even a few seemingly minor changes can completely and utterly change how much enjoyment one can get out of a game's systems. Take for example the leveling system of Final Fantasy 2 versus the original Final Fantasy, or for a more modern comparison, the way that Fallout: New Vegas uses engaging writing and well-placed world design to take Fallout 3's boring, stale gameplay and make it thoroughly enjoyable for 60+ hours. Or any number of other improvements/changes other types of games make. Clones are not bad, and sometimes, if what you want is more of what you've already thoroughly enjoyed, it can be fantastic to see a clone that gives you a fresh way to experience something you already enjoyed and loved. Or give something you liked a little bit but weren't sure about another shot.

@jurtheorc8117

5 ай бұрын

For me, examples of what you talk about in terms of codifiers for entire genres, come to mind with Devil May Cry and God of War. Definers of the Character Action or Hack-and-Slash genre (there's debate over the correct term) that got fairly popular around the mid-2000s and developed pretty popularly up until the early 2010s. There have been a number of games in the same genre, from the Darksiders and Bayonetta series to Dante's Inferno and Sonic Unleashed (at least partially) From X-Men: Wolverine to Van Helsing, from Ghost Rider to Heavenly Sword. Of course there were similar games from around that time and before, such as Rygar: The Legendary Adventure and Shinobi, and famously God Hand (i'd say that may count within the genre) but DMC and GoW were the real household names that, for all their differences in gameplay and tone, were used as a golden standard. In the 2010s, especially late 2010s, these 3D titles are quite a bit rarer. And I assume that's also in part because of looking upon "clones" (or sometimes knock-offs or rip-offs) in a negative way, as well as changing attitudes of the time that i won't get into because i'm not NEARLY qualified to speak on that. (I assume industry focus on Souls-type games and cinematic experiences have had their influence on this as well) To my knowledge most *new* games in that genre from the early 2010s, were developed from already established series: Aforementioned Darksiders (Darksiders 2, and Darksiders 3 finally got released around 2018 or something), Bayonetta 2, DMC4 and DmC: Devil May Cry, a series genre outlier in Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance, and in terms of original ones, there was your odd Assault Spy, NieR: Automata and Astral Chain. But most of those titles (MGR: Revengance, Bayonetta 1 and 2, NieR: Automata in gameplay, and Astral Chain) came from a single studio (Platinum Games) that is *known* for its efforts within the Character Action Genre. Which is a studio that had to fight to remain in business, if i'm not mistaken. And thanks to among other things the love from their fans has allowed to do so. The only real *new* 3D Character Action/Hack-and-Slash game from the time was Assault Spy. And that went under the radar big time. (I can't speak about 2D ones, i only know of The Dishwasher: Vampire Smile). I'm glad to see that things are picking up again a bit in the Character Action or Hack-and-Slash genre in recent years. And i'm not talking about the big titles like DMC5, even though that must have left behind a big positive impact as it has done years before. Or Bayonetta 3 and the norse God of War, for all their divisive factors. I am talking for example personal favourite Soulstice from late 2022, Hi-Fi Rush from early this year which came out of nowhere with an absolute BANG (and i want to give mention to music action game colleague No Straight Roads which released a few years earlier), and the upcoming Enenra and Genokids. (And mention to Clash: Artifacts of Chaos as well, for seemingly sharing some God Hand DNA) Two of these games, Soulstice and Hi-Fi Rush, are from fairly sizeable studios and both ambitious projects in their own right, whereas Enenra and Genokids seem to be made by smaller teams. Reply Game Studios have even cited wanting to become like a "European Platinum Games". And if anything, i'm just glad that love is being given back to the genre by the smaller guys to help reinvigorate it. Big comment, understandable if whoever reads it didn't read through ALL of it, and there is great possibility i have made errors and mistakes in recalling and assuming things. If one did read through it all, I hope it has proved interesting, that it has brought a lot of cool titles both old and new to your attention, and I wish you a good rest of your day. Have a good one and take care as well as a cookie when nobody's looking.

Agreed. Once you have played games enough you end up with specific tastes and preferences which can only be adhered to with "clones". If your mom made tacos that tasted just like your fav restaurant you wouldnt say "aw this is just a clone mom Im not eating this" lmao nah you'd enjoy it!

@magicfroggi

5 ай бұрын

I cackled out loud at the "come on mom, this is just a clone" lmao

@jurtheorc8117

5 ай бұрын

@@magicfroggi Now i'm imagining a Star Wars clone trooper in a taco shell.

@jarlwhiterun7478

5 ай бұрын

I like eating your mom's taco

@meikahidenori

5 ай бұрын

This, especially with simulation/godlike games. There's so few when a clone does turn up everyone jumps on it, tears it fown until the game falls apart from being something it never was going to be to start with. It's why things like the sims & sim city have love/hate relationships with it's fan base - even between editions. When a game that does anything close pops up the fans flock over and end up stifling them from growing into their own thing by demanding them to be the exact same thing they left behind but better (and sometimes that's just impossible) To be honest it's why I haven't touched Balders gate 3. I would love another one of those games, but I'm so over it being set in the Forgotten Realms. But I dunno if making it closer to Planescape Torment would be an any better - probably make it still very the same regardless of the universe it's set. I'd love something to shake up this style of game as I enjoy it but yeah... it's not an easy one to do.

@norrecvizharan1177

5 ай бұрын

Bro, imagine clone troopers, but they have taco bell colors/paints on their armor. And they're going up against mcdonalds themed droids.@@jurtheorc8117

I disagree with your take on Remnant 2, though I'll concede that if you're used to Souls games then the "normal" difficulty level is probably too easy for you. It's one of my favourite games of the year and I think that it has a lot of really inspired ideas for building a Souls-style that is more co-op focused (which is one of the games' cores conceits, though I never felt like I was having a lesser experience playing it solo) and also some absolutely *stellar* bosses, with the final boss being a particular standout.

@kevingriffith6011

5 ай бұрын

Weirdly, Remnant (The first one, never played the second) made me want to go back to Warframe rather than reminding me of souls-likes.

@zacc87

5 ай бұрын

Its probably the first time I've truly disagreed with this channel. Playing Remnant 2 I never really thought about how much of a Soulslike it was. I was always just impressed how well hidden its secrets were, or how fun putting together a new build was based on some new ring or gun I found. It's definitely not just some clone

@Zectifin

5 ай бұрын

yeah Remnant 2 wasn't a failure. It's one of my favorite games of all time. It blows the original out of the water. Having random generation and secrets gives you another reason to play it again and again and also makes multiplayer much more fun. Also it wasn't a failure at all. Many consider it one of the best games of the year and it was a huge success for Gunfire Games. He's taking something he personally dislikes and saying it as if it was a definitive reason why it failed. I hate Hollow Knight. I hate how the map system works and I hate the combat and having to come back to my body. Should I say it failed as a metroidvania because I personally didn't like it? No. People loved it, its a financial and critical success and helped explode the subgenre in popularity and is probably many younger people's first metroidvania due to its popularity. Just because I have gripes with it doesn't mean its bad or failed as a game.

@ThirsttyRecon

5 ай бұрын

I do agree with the channel when he stated Remnant2's design decisions led to a heavy reliance on AOE spam and bullet sponges to do difficulty, neither of which are great ways to go about it. Playing through Remnant 2 to apocalypse I always felt that the soulslike influences were always at odds with the FPS identity of the game, and they were never fused together in a good way. It was serviceable at best, but it could definitely have been done better.

DnD is an example of clones not overtaking the original and it becoming stagnated tbh

@AppleIndianFTW

5 ай бұрын

As a 5e player of seven years, I definitely agree. If there’s one hill I’ll die on, it’s that Baldur’s Gate 3 sucks not because it’s a bad game (it is, but that’s not this point), but because it’s a bad D&D game. I thought it would fix or improve the things that made base 5e terrible, and it didn’t. It actually took one of the best things about D&D away. (You can’t have an impactful backstory-all player characters are special for the same reason and only special because of that reason: the parasite).

@LimeyLassen

5 ай бұрын

I feel like the nature of tabletop roleplay is that people will always prefer homebrew over a glossy product. Like, I think the reason D&D has endured so long is that most players don't take the rulebook that seriously and just make stuff up.

@erinkarp

5 ай бұрын

@@LimeyLassen I feel like that's equivalent to games with large modding communities

A "Clone" needs to justify its existence to be worthwhile. It is okay and usually good to pull from preexisting media, but one must be aware that by doing so one is choosing to compete with said media. So when pitching this to consumers, there needs to be a reason to pick the "Clone" over that which it pulls from.

To illustrate your point Pong, the first home console game, is a clone of tennis and a fusball table.

@MegaPokefan97

5 ай бұрын

So... table tennis?

@guidedexplosiveprojectileg9943

5 ай бұрын

​@@MegaPokefan97clone of tennis and fusball table

@jimijenkins2548

5 ай бұрын

Pong is itself a clone of a game called Tennis for Two. Look it up sometime!

@FireFox64000000

5 ай бұрын

@@MegaPokefan97 Actually that's more of a straight clone of tennis with no other elements added.

This dissertation is a justification of WHY clones should exist, which is useful in the very cynical online conversations we often see online, but NOT HOW clones should exist. You talk a lot about how games tried certain mechanics (or not) but not really why, IN GENERAL, said attempts work. I specifically mean you do individual examples but not general applied learnings. I would love to see video about more of a general applied learnings of what to clone and what to change regardless of genre. It’s gonna be an imperfect video no matter what you say but it would be a jump off point to help designers narrow what to think about

17:19 this is one of the things I hated about lies of P. Every goddang wooden bridge falls. It's a good trick once, it's annoying when it's done 75 frickin' times!

@jeff3221

5 ай бұрын

Yep. It's interesting they didn't learn from DS3 and it's mimic problem

@maxentirunos

5 ай бұрын

1. Complete and utter lie. Only a third of them do, and it's mainly in the first third of the game as a way to reverse-trap you later on. 2. none of them do that as an instant death trap, every single bridge that fall make you fall directly in the actual path to progress

@BewbsOP

5 ай бұрын

@@maxentirunos 1: I literally never said they were instant death traps. Not even once. You made that up yourself. 2: you've clearly never heard of hyperbole before. You see, when someone says "every frickin god dang time" it is very blatantly obvious they do not mean literally every single instance. Even a third of the time is way too many times. I don't care if it's to reverse trap you or whatever, it still overstays its welcome the twelfth time, no less the twentieth.

@jeff3221

5 ай бұрын

@@maxentirunos"☝️🤓 aktually it's more like a third!"

@maxentirunos

5 ай бұрын

@@jeff3221 Ah yes, Ad hominem because you got nothing to actually say in the discussion

'Indie game that is a direct copy of a Nintendo IP' is one of my favorite genres and they rock! Rivals of Aether, Ittle Dew 1 & 2, Cassette Beasts, Bug Fables, and Lenna's Inception are all such fantastic games! You really should check these games out if you haven't already.

@Cybernaut551

5 ай бұрын

I agree, Animal Crossing inspired Stardew Valley.

@Air21Man

5 ай бұрын

@@Cybernaut551 No. That was Harvest Moon/Story of Seasons.

@dyskord69isafurry64

5 ай бұрын

Rivals of Aether quickly became my favorite fighting game once I started using the steam workshop. I mean you can play as Ronald McDonald and a Primal Aspid from Hollow Knight vs. a Duracell battery and Peppino Spaghetti from Pizza Tower on top of a Waffle House, but you can also play much more serious characters/maps too. The shitpost characters are often so good they can sometimes valid for more serious matches, like Morshu and I.M. Meen for example. Anyway, rant over.

Hey there! I'm Fannon, long time fan of the channel. Remnant II was actually my first studio release as a designer, so seeing the hunter armor in the thumbnail was a real trip hahah. Hope you enjoyed your time with the game and thanks for playing!

@GameDevYal

5 ай бұрын

Remnant 2 is such a massive improvement to the first game, good job! (As an ex-Ikea employee I can't get over the anachronistic forklift pallets littered all over Losomn though, lol)

@GameDevYal

5 ай бұрын

Remnant 2 is such a massive improvement to the first game, good job! (As an ex-Ikea employee I can't get over the anachronistic forklift pallets littered all over Losomn though, lol)

ayyy thank you for the shoutout ! glad my stuff managed to resonate with you in such a way. B)

I think Bug Fables did it best with its system mimicking Paper Mario but advancing it to have three party members at once instead of just two, and having an advanced dynamic with how to position your party members for either more damage or less aggression from enemies. The badge system is also really good and makes you really think about what you want to equip to certain party members, and for what battle you're going into.

@lucaslourenco8918

5 ай бұрын

So true! Paper Mario is heavily centered on Mario, all stats are for Mario, Mario is always the first one, the only one who can use spells, items and equip badges. And the variety of badges is greater in Bug fables, and they synergize much better! I wish Nintendo would learn a thing or two from them - that gameplay with the art design of Origami King would be *chef's kiss*.

@Boomblox5896

5 ай бұрын

@@lucaslourenco8918 Well, there is always Mario & Luigi if you want things to stop focusing so much on Mario and have another dynamic party member. The only Paper Mario game to take any focus off Mario was SUPER Paper Mario, but that had a much different gameplay than the others.

@kekcrocgod6731

5 ай бұрын

I wish bug fables did more to differentiate itself from paper Mario than just adding 2 more party members and nothing else. Even with the additional 2 party members the game still feels like an unoriginal copy of pm because literally nothing else is changed (they even copied the design of the room transitions…) the game doesn’t try to solve any of the problems present in the paper Mario formula and instead just introduces its own

@Boomblox5896

5 ай бұрын

@@kekcrocgod6731 First: How does it introduce its own problems? Second: How does it not fix the issues that the original Paper Mario had? It has a great story that engages all the main characters almost equally, and even involves side characters on the regular to the point that they have their own developments. The battle system takes into account enemy types like if the enemy is a plant or a bug and allows them to take more damage from certain types of attacks. I would say it has its own sense of originality, especially with its setting and lore, otherwise it would have copied assets directly from the Paper Mario games instead of creating its own props and characters. Being inspired by Paper Mario down to the art style and battle style doesn't automatically make it "unoriginal". Now do you care to explain in full as to why you think it's an "unoriginal copy"?

@ShadowoftheMask

5 ай бұрын

@@kekcrocgod6731 Eh, I disagree, I felt like Bug Fables was natural evolution of PM formula that PM series itself can't do because of its reliance on revolving around Mario

In my opinion, creating games that are similar to other ones is what helps turn singular franchises into genres. That’s why as a big Monster Hunter fan, I enjoy games like Dauntless and Wild Hearts. Both of these have unique things that I love, like the building system in Wild Hearts or the different game modes such as escalation in Dauntless. Granted, I am a fan of giant monsters in general, hence why I’m so receptive to these things compared to the more spiteful reactions other people have had, but personally, I’m happy to see monster hunting evolve into a broader genre.

As a GMTK-clone, you should lift another good idea from there and put the title of the game currently on screen in a corner throughout. A video like this where you jump between games visually would benefit greatly. I'm sure Mark Brown, or whoever he lifted it from, won't mind you copying that.

What is implied in the video but not fully pointed out is how the advancements brought on by clones are mostly if not always gameplay based. This makes sense as genres are largely defined by the mechanics they choose to combine.

Lost it at the Gävlebock image when talking about bonfires, good one!

I'd argue Lies of P has two unique mechanics all its own: The handle & blade system, and being only allowed to carry one "spell," aka the legion arms at once. No other game has tried either of those to my knowledge. And the handle mechanic especially must have been TONS of work while really mixing up how people play.

The enemy variety in Lies of P is very good though

Agree with this. But also clones can also appeal to people who missed the originals too. Wargroove was one for me where having never played it's direct inspiration, I still loved it. And xcom is one I tried to play as it inspired alot of games I liked but just didn't do much for me.

@Zectifin

5 ай бұрын

I love the original X-coms and I just didn't like the new "XCOM" (the way you capitalize is important) games. They felt too "board gamey" to me and somehow the DOS one felt more complicated and more like a simulation than the remakes. I actually liked chimera squad more than 1 and 2 because it mixed it up and added alternating activations based on initiative and you could push enemies back in the turn order. I love games that do that and it made the combat more exciting for me and you also don't lose half your team in one enemy turn. I know some of the XCOM 1 and 2 diehards hated it for that.

Appreciate the Spell Break clip, really underrated and innovative game that I hope will make a return someday

In defense of Wargroove, it is a spiritual successor more than a clone (Given how Advance Wars was dark for how long?). And even then, I get nostalgia because I get to play as the Floran from Starbound (Which is a clone of Terraria). It’s an interesting case study of the lines between all the terms.

@no_genius

5 ай бұрын

Yeah, I almost thought it would be about clones of old games keeping genres and dead games alive. Without Wargroove, would Advance Wars 1+2 have been remastered to Switch? I don’t think I can make the same case for Aviary Attorney, but it was the first Phoenix Wright-like I played, so it probably helped.

Fantastic script, as always! Love your editing and background clip selection as well!

When the music at 3:03 started and later picked up, I could tell it was from Nier Automata but had trouble placing it. I managed to find it however. That is the theme of the *Copied City.* Well played. *Edit: Oh, at the end of the section you give the name. Either way, appreciate the pun.

@EggBastion

5 ай бұрын

same same same, except I couldn't find the credit in the video or the description but scroll-scroll-scrolled to load every comment and see if I could search up any answers that way.

Did not expect a gävlebocken reference (3:51) in an Adam Millard episode. Nice surprise!

i love people taking things and doing their own spin on it, you'll get a lot of lazy stuff but you can in fact just not play bad games, I also consider studios to gain skills at making a type of game, so when studio tackles an idea they've done before they have an opportunity to further refine their design

@Zectifin

5 ай бұрын

people only remember the bad clones as being clones. theres plenty of good clones that people wont call clones. why isn't half life or halo a "DOOM clone"? NES mario bros isn't the first platformer, but nobody criticizes it as being a clone of the games before it. people will iterate and many will be shit, but sometimes we get a real gem and it moves the medium forward.

Hey Adam! Allan here, one of the devs of Soulstone Survivors! I'm a huge fan of your work since forever and loved the video! I definitely get the critique (and Im super happy to know you played our game!!), ever since we got Soulstone Survivors out there we are continuously trying to make it into its own game, since the beginning for us Soulstone was what we would like to see in the "Bullet Heaven" genre, we kept some elements, removed others, added some of our own ideas into the mix, but indeed, as the game currently stands I definitely can see how it might feel "automatically solved" if you played Vampire Survivors (or similar games). As we continue navigating the Early Access and learn from our own game, player feedback and other games in the genre, we are working on a few plans that hopefully will be able to break even more that sensation of closeness, while still keeping the core key elements that make the game what it is. At any rate, just wanted to thank you for the mention and say we are big fans, and I hope you will give a try to the game again in the future as we get closer to the 1.0 release!

"that started before I was even born" *stares in old*

@Coffeepanda294

5 ай бұрын

That made me feel really old, too, lol. Born in '85 here.

After that loving characterization of "mimicry as flattery", I really didn't expect the video to end on "I need money to buy crisps". You kill me Adam.

21:40 "Hbomb is a punk, stealing things rules" - thank you for the inspirational and insightful words, shakespeare

damn, i love Sundered :'c didn't even realize it was procgen until my third playthrough lmao. Thought they handled it really well since major stuff stays in the same location, and only the small inconsequential rooms are what gets procgen'd. Even got every achievement cuz i loved the game so much.

I was exercising in the middle of this video, and I realized something. (I liked the video, in fact many of them, it's why I'm subscribed.) I realized at one point that my attention was getting tired. I was expecting a pause between ideas, or a title card, or something, but the rest never came. It might help listeners if you added a few mid-idea breaks. Or maybe I'm just exhausted from the holidays. Anyway, happy festive times! Still loved the video per usual!

I watch a lot of video game essays, and have been following your channel for a while. This is one of the best videos I have seen and my favorite in your catalogue. It really changed my view on clones and I don't think I've seen another video even mention these ideas.

I appreciated all the clone puns thrown in during editing

I guess another good way to look at it is like this is from a pure artistry sort of perspective: if someone draws a really good portrait of, say, a dragon, and another person comes along, looks at it, and has their own attempt at a dragon that's roughly similar, then it's arguably a form of flattery for it to have been used as inspiration. Also probably a testament to just how well the first person drew them, seeing as how it's being used as a reference and such. Honestly, whether or not it can be considered a genuinely innovative rendition, or just a lazy clone really just depends on how "traced" the original reference is. It's really cool to see someone take a concept and add their own style, but if there's basically no differences, then it's not entirely as interesting. But the fact of the matter remains that, traced or not, it's still (usually) a well-made work in the end. Unless said person basically had zero skills and clearly used a ruler + other tools to do all the work for them (or in other words, built it entirely from store assets without real changes), then that's when artists and creators can usually collectively band together to shit on them for being lazy. Especially if they add insult to injury via charging more and/or trying to sell parts of the creation despite it clearly not being something they really put much effort into. Although on the flipside, one could argue that even one made out of prebuilt tools can be cool if it was creative (like the equivalent of assembling a bunch of template shapes into something extra neat, such as a tree made of stars), but those are pretty dang rare and tricky to pull off.

Absolutely amazing video! I'm always impressed by how many games you're able to use as examples for your points. I really resonated with your points, but I could never have expressed it so clearly.

I hope that was a bit and that you don't think anyone else could do this as well as you! Your analyses helped me get back into gaming

This video is extremely helpful to me, I am developing a parkour game heavily inspired by Vector and Mirror's Edge as a love letter to both, my brother is working on the animations and I work on the code and general game design aspects. Vector is our number 1 inspiration, and at the start of development I think we fell into the rabbit hole of trying to recreate most of its mechanics given that we consider Vector to be the gold standard of 2D parkour games, mobile or not. We have successfully achieved this we think, but now we are left with a sense of not having done enough, or a sense of just being copycats of the original, but we know that we started from a place of admiration and LOVE towards Vector, and we know that we can improve upon the formula of the game by adding more moves and a better way of choosing your actions. It might not be as different from Vector as we would have liked at first, but thanks to this video I realized that it doesn't necessarily need to be different, but that it needs to be as good or even better at what the original was doing, as to progress this specific game genre to the next step. In any case, we will continue to work on our project, Runner's Faith, and trying to polish the mechanics to a level never seen before, if any of you is interested I have a devlog from a couple of months ago that showcases the potential of our game, and soon I'll make an updated devlog to show how it has improved!

If games are a constantly evolving medium, they actually have to go through the evolution process. That means, notable titles must have successors to inherit their better traits. As clones pop up in the subgenre, they gradually branch out and fill a whole list of nieches. Then, like rogue-likes, they become a whole genre in and of themselves until another great game is made.

17:50 (plays Bloodborne) "This needs more Pinncchio."

A fun exploration for the future... How ARPGs and Action RPGs are still two distinctly different genres with the exact same name.

After playing and mastering Nioh 2's combat, originally thinking it was just a slightly jankier souls game but the layers upon layers of depth in its combat system just made it my favorite innovation to the souls formula. Turns out combining DMC-level depth of gameplay while retaining souls elements make for a damn good game.

@maxentirunos

5 ай бұрын

The only difficulty in Nioh come from near constant ganging of ennemies and the way the equipment is looted and you end up with 50+ version of the same item with different stats make exploration completely unrewarding.

@Digger-Nick

5 ай бұрын

Nioh is dark souls but actually good

@GameDevYal

5 ай бұрын

I was genuinely worried and a little bit disappointed in how easy the game was, but going into the harder difficulties after beating the final boss was a real blast - they don't just buff enemy stats, you get stuff like completely new enemy spawns blocking off previous safe / cheese spots and more demon fog zones. And then you start getting cursed enemies that will outheal you if you don't shut them down with finishers and backstabs and they force you to engage with them in a completely different way (you can't just take the safe options). It's got some amazing ideas, the only reason I stopped playing was because I'd literally done everything in the game.

Quick question: did you ever try the co-op for Remnant 2? Remnant says its a soulslike shooter, but in reality its a co-op soulslike. It's ten times more fun with friends, and unlike fromsoft games is designed with multiplayer in mind. Some bosses and encounters are balanced (in part) around multiple players, and if that isn't enough to convince you, they even have friendly fire, which is unironically the single greatest thing about the game.

@Caidezes

5 ай бұрын

Every game is more fun with friends. If it's not fun or balanced solo, it shouldn't let you play solo. (Not saying Remnant 2 isn't fun.)

@Ashen_Night116

5 ай бұрын

@@Caidezes Thankfully, Remnant 2 is fully balanced for solo play as well, it's just going to be more difficult to beat, but it's fully possible.

21:47 I started watching your channel since I loved GMTK too, so its interesting to hear that's how you got started in the first place. I'm very happy you've sliced out a different niche for yourself to cover; love your content!

One of the few channels on youtube that I see a new upload and have to watch it on the spot. Hope you have a good new year and blessings for the next brother!

for me, remnant is the only souls-like i enjoyed because the ranged combat gave some more variety to otherwise a "dodge, use melle, dodge, use melle, repeat" loop. sure you can kill enemies at range before they become a problem, but usualy enemies have either ranged attacks or come in swarms so that your ranged attacks don't trivialize any challenge. the random aspect of the world was good because it gave a lot more replayability (which the game does build on with specific items being acessible only on specific areas) and made me feel i was going to other areas and moving forward, rather than being on the same dungeon for a long time

So basically you have to know what makes the games so great in the first place so you can use that to make a better iteration. You have to know what you Can, and Shouldn’t change.

The Evolution Championship Series, often referred to simply as “Evo,” the most prestigious international tournament each year for Street Fighter and Street Fighter clones 🤣💕

11:23 I'm so happy you mentioned Desktop Dungeons It's such an underrated little gem

@Zectifin

5 ай бұрын

god I remember playing desktop dungeons ages ago when it was a free beta demo and I think it was in the 2000s? that game has come a long way.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the video, but the only difference between a good clone and a bad clone is whether or not you liked the new spin the clone had on the genre?

@shimmereyes8984

5 ай бұрын

Yes

@ystacalden

5 ай бұрын

I guess if they didn't put a new spin they're automatically a bad clone.

7:40 Holocure mentioned! /o/ Also actually a shining example for a "good clone" for me. Vampire Survivors lost me pretty quickly for how simplistic and clunky its gameplay was. Holocure took the core, improved on both control and enemy variety/patterns, revamped the fusion system into an imo superior and less limiting one, made the characters actually meanigfully different in abilities & playstyle and put superior visuals/music on top. Obviously, it being a very charming Hololive fangame was also a nice bonus for me (and likely a drawback for some others). :P The video overall has points that should be pretty obvious but still worth repeating and you used some good examples and insights into gaming history.

@Lishtenbird

5 ай бұрын

I saw the title and immediately rushed to comments to see if HoloCure would be mentioned; glad to know it will!

@GameBoyPL1991

5 ай бұрын

Having just played a lot more hours of Holocure over the Christmas than I should (to the point I had to delete it for my own good), I think it's already much better game than the Vampire Survivors. They basically improved everything, even the price point. :P

It's kind of amazing that your channel has over 100 videos on it, yet each one has something really interesting to say.

Great vid, points made. Pointing out the tendency of some modern games to be an amorphous blob of mechanics and how there's a distinction between those and 'clones' that build upon inspiration had me like "yeeeeeeeeeesss"

I'm glad you pointed out Vampire Survivors-I feel like "Survivorslikes" could be another genre, and I love it.

@FeiFongWang

5 ай бұрын

Hopefully they aren't called survivorslike because that sounds like the most unwieldy and pedantic genre name ever.

@william_sun

5 ай бұрын

@@FeiFongWang The names most commonly in use for the genre are "reverse bullet hell" and "bullet heaven". Functionally, it's a fusion of the bullet hell and rogue-like genres. I'd also argue that the common name is a misnomer and it isn't a "reverse" bullet hell at all, as it's still a bullet hell, but one where you're supposed to kill the "bullets" before they reach you instead of dodging them since most of them home on your position instead of flying past you.

@julianemery718

5 ай бұрын

Isn't it already part of the bullet heaven genera?

@FeiFongWang

5 ай бұрын

@@william_sun I think bullet heaven is a great name for it actually, since bullet hells normally force you to play defensively and be underpowered, heaven being the opposite makes sense.

@LimeyLassen

5 ай бұрын

The ongoing struggle to come up with a name for this genre is really funny to me.

When I played A Plague Tale, I thought, 'This is just The Last of Us in medieval France'. There are a huge number of similarities, both in plot (extended escort mission through an apocalyptic hellscape with someone who has a mysterious resistance to it) and mechanics (e.g. upgrade benches, resources, supplements, listen mode). However, they're both among my favourite games. While there's undoubtedly a lot of influence from TLOU, APT feels fresh and interesting. It is different enough and it is its own game.

This was really, really good. The parallels to all types of art, and creation in general, are really nice. Happy new year :)

Love the use of the Gävle Goat as the entry for "bonfire," very specifc tidbit that made me laugh. Great stuff Adam! I love your work!

Great video. Minus 1 point for not mentioning "Diablo clones".

it can be far too easy to forget that incremental iteration and imitation is and has always been the primary way people learn art and a major part of its evolution no mater the medium of that art.

@upublic

5 ай бұрын

Everything is a Remix, great doc on youtube, by Kirby Ferguson

Your shoutouts are always so good, they never miss. Thank you for them. And thanks for the good videos.

This general process occurs in just about every art form to some degree or another. It's basically how genres, movements, and canons are formed. Any art form is basically a conceptual conversation spread out over extremely long time periods.

Felt like you were talking about Dark and Darker! the game clones chivalry but with extraction elements from escape from tarkov but feels so unique. they also got sued for being similar to a chivalry mod.

@Ashen_Night116

5 ай бұрын

I'm going to level with you here, but it is no where near a Chivalry clone. There isn't the autistic level of animation abuse typically associated with Chivalry, the reason it got sued was because Nexon had a cancelled project (the one that the employees of Ironmace were working on presumably before they left Nexon), and Nexon was trying to strong arm them into not being allowed to do it, despite not having any copyright or evidence that Ironmace had taken anything from the project.

@Zectifin

5 ай бұрын

@@Ashen_Night116 yeah they had nothing to do with chivalry. Was because nexon was mad the devs went and made their own game with blackjack and hookers after they canned it.

"Wow, that was a great game. I hope nobody else has ever made anything remotely like it." - Nobody ever

When I started in animation school, our teacher told us that rule n°1 *nothing is original; the trick is stealing with style.*

I caught the snippet of Marathon in there as one of the doom clones, and I remember distinctly liking it for both the story and the included level editor to mess with all the settings and make your own map, weapon/effects, etc. My cousins and I would take turns making unwinnable trap maps for each other to play.

As someone who loves fromsoft games, but has found every souls-like trying to copy them extremely mediocre, I had very low hopes for Lies of P. It ended up surprising me so much. The game even exceeds fromsoft games in some ways. It also genuinely might have the best feeling weapons/combat of any souls-like

I'm curious. Did you play Remnant by yourself or with others? I feel It's balanced around having 3 players each with a different build.

@Zectifin

5 ай бұрын

I played Remnant 2 solo and its still one of my favorite games of all time. I just think hes conflating not liking it with being a failure. People love Remnant 2.

'The same but better' has been a driver in video gaming since I was a little kid playing coin-ops in the early 80s. That decade was a sort of 'Cambrian Explosion' of iteration and innovation occurring in tandem. When the 'Gorf' cabinet came out we all saw it as Midway essentially trying to squeeze the remaining potential out of something that was already starting to look old school, such was the blindingly fast rate of change. We quickly establish new terms to replace the definitive 'clone' event because it ceases to be an adequate descriptor of what's occurring.

You bastard. I've been writing a script exploring this topic. I'm not sure I should even bother now. Great work, once again!

Very good points. The best example it probably Street Fighter 2, which had so many clones that all the best ideas went into the following Street Fighter games. The topic is particularly interesting to me because I'm currently developing a clone of a game which, as far as I know, doesn't have clones yet (Pony Island). And I'm trying to do exactly that: push the formula further etc. 😅

I think I needed this video. I'm a uni student and I'm playing with the idea of making a Disco Elysium-esque RPG where instead of an alcoholic detective, you play as a struggling student, with the game covering (and satirizing) everything from various aspects of uni life to parties and life in a dorm with another person. I'm worried it'd come across as a "Disco Elysium clone" if I borrow too much, but this vid helped prod me towards not thinking too much about that. If I ever make it, I'll find my footing as I work with it.

@MulberryDays

5 ай бұрын

omg tell me more! incidentally for a long time i've wanted to get together with some burnt out academics and write up or play a version of Paranoia but set in a sprawling dystopian School. and i thought a LOT about that idea while playing Disco Elysium, so i think you're onto something

@guidedexplosiveprojectileg9943

5 ай бұрын

I would play, I think.

@Coffeepanda294

5 ай бұрын

@@MulberryDays not much to tell, it's barely even at a concept stage and I'd also have to learn Unity. But yes, I think the idea is sound. Hope you go for it too if you're able, either solo or with a team.

This actually makes me more comfortable with the Undertale clone I've been working on for 6 years (still 2-ish years away from when I'm comfortable showing it publicly though...)

Excellent video that sums up my feelings on the subject perfectly. Bonus points for the Dream Quest shout out too, that's such an oft forgotten little artifact of a game that anyone who likes deckbuilders should really take a look at.

I still don't get why there aren't many dragon games. Where you either play as or ride a dragon or at least have one as a companion. It's such an untapped well of potentially amazing games and NOBODY is even trying to do anything with the idea. Except for the asset flipped what was it? Day of dragons? And that's ... I ain't even gonna get into it. But like why?! What are hey afraid of? That it would fail? That they couldn't make a good plot? (To be fair if it's triple A I could believe it. I'll wait on the indie developers.) If I had the capability I'd make it myself. I have plenty of good dragon game ideas. Even some where people can transform into dragons. Are people worried it'd be boring? Are they worried about balance? For crying out loud it's a DRAGON! Let the players have a power trip. Not everyone wants souls difficulty. Some people just wanna have fun.

@snotenberg7

5 ай бұрын

There was going to be an Xbox one game called scalebound, I think. But the game got canceled. the trailers looked awesome, tho

@Guardian-of-Light137

5 ай бұрын

@@snotenberg7 Yeah I had that in mind while writing this.

@SimuLord

5 ай бұрын

I would pay actual money for a game that's "Skyrim but from the dragons' point of view."

@gowzahr

5 ай бұрын

One issue that comes to mind is that, if the dragon is large enough, players are going to want to destroy things, which would require a robust and probably custom physics engine.

@Coffeepanda294

5 ай бұрын

I'm wondering the same. I've done a bit of horse riding, and so I'd love a game that replicated that feeling of having to stay in your saddle (one control stick could be your balance), moving with the same rhytm as your mount, and gameplay centered around the dragon being a living creature, with its own free will, not just an unthinking, 100% obedient machine like a motorbike. I believe Breath of the Wild experimented with this, where your hourse had a will of its own. You'd have to learn to communicate with them and earn their respect, like you have to with a horse. The game wouldn't even need combat in my eyes, just at most some sort of cool story.

That sentiment about starbound failing is really weird to me. It was a pretty decent financial success(sourcing wikipedia so take it with a grain of salt I guess), and it was in good standing creatively until the devs decided that becoming space jesus was the most important thing you could do. And even then, the modding scene there really took everything to the next level, creating entirely different ways to play and making far better and more focused storylines in some cases, and otherwise just adding more interesting content. As an example, the capture pods from the game gave me the idea of doing what would be a "pokemon run", where you can't hurt anything, but you have 6 creatures that can. Combining Frackin' with pandora's box lead to a unique game experience which I haven't been able to find anywhere else. While the game itself did fail on it's own, it created a community that made combos that fit into a niche of all sorts. Also, as for the whole exploring one world over a long time, I've got like 2.7k hours in terraria(about half and half for modded/vanilla), and 1k in starbound. Both work really well, but terraria was good unmodded, whereas starbound not so much. This is more of a ramble so I'm gonna conclude it by saying that, by the numbers starbound didn't fail, and modding is something that really needs to be taken into account when talking about a game's success.

@SimuLord

5 ай бұрын

"becoming space jesus was the most important thing you could do." I mean, it worked for Benjamin Sisko...

@nobody8717

5 ай бұрын

starbound felt like terraria, in space, at home.

@Zectifin

5 ай бұрын

ok but nobody really likes starbound. everyone says its just meh. it was not a critical darling.

@MMMMorshu1

5 ай бұрын

@@Zectifin Are we even talking about the same thing??? Literally in my comment I said that it wasn't that great unless you modded it. It's just a factual inaccuracy to say it failed because it made a lotta money.

I like to think of good game clones the same way I think of good anime adaptations. I love the source material the way it is, but I would also love to see what color, motion, and sound can add to it.

The way i like to think about this is there are 3 major categories studios and devs fall into: copiers, refiners, and innovators. The last is rare today, do to an ever growing pool of things that have been done before, as boundary changing teck advances are rarer and less noticeable than the early days. Refiners take things that exist and try to make them better, or do something new with them, while copiers just take what works and puts it together. Very few studios are just one, and many systems are well understood, hard to improve, or just work for whats needed to make the focus better (like save systems, hud designs, a lot of gaunra staples, ect). Heck, sometimes you can refine just by taking existing stuff from more than one place and mixing them together.