You’re dang right! Watching your videos I changed out my seat position(got rid of my flip seat, sit right on box)oar length(10’ vs 9’6”) and oar tower height(8” vs 6”). Also adjusted the donut position. Night and day difference. Those little changes all add up to feel just right

@GearGarageTV

3 жыл бұрын

I'm stoked to hear the videos are helped! Thanks for letting me know.

@jonahwhale9047

6 ай бұрын

@@GearGarageTV Where does height of rowlocks above the waterline come into these equations? How would it not be part of it? I suppose it should be a triangular geometry, if you measure from the apex point of where your hands should be at the beginning of the power stroke, e.g. grips, to rowlocks, to water at right depth for the blade? I'm interested for using on a sailing boat, but one that's not much broader than your rafts, e.g. I'd estimate it's about a 7' rowlock distance, but suspect they're higher up. Normally, we'd have to end up rowing standing up, to keep the tips in the water. I was looking for info of whether or not it's possible to scarfe together two oars to make one longer one. Thanks.

40th year guiding. And yet I still come back to this video every time I order frames and oars. Thanks as always, Zach.

@GearGarageTV

3 ай бұрын

I'm stoked to hear it helps

Zach, it's Russ Lowe in PDX -- it seems like every search I do for something I'm stumped on or need some more information about, Gear Garage to the rescue! It always pops up, and I always laugh and just love it. These are so solid, man. Priceless knowledge and wisdom. Way to do, buddy, hope you keep doing this, it rules.. 🙌

@GearGarageTV

2 жыл бұрын

I'm stoked the videos are helping! Thanks for the nice note.

Thanks again for such an informative video.

This jives nicely with just my natural evolution as an oarsman. I grew up learning to row on a 16’ Udisco with a tractor seat bolted at seat height. When I got my first frame, I purchased dry boxes - not custom - generic boxes from frontier play back when he was just getting started at $150 a piece. Anyway, they are 18” tall which puts me pretty high after bolting a seat on top. Now it felt weird, so I extended my towers. Now my leverage was off so I added 2 foot extensions. Now shipping my oars is awkward it’s hard to row shallow, and I have massive counter weight to compensate for the 25% to 75% ratio I need to have to feel otherwise comfortable-mitigating my leverage. I just sol my old 18’ Riken, and picked up a set of 18’ Aire Leopard cat tubes. I am now re configuring my old frame-and I will be scraping my extended or locks-bulding a custom box to fit In between lowered Nrs foot rest bars that will keep my butt even with the top of the frame-so with a 11 in drop floor the box will only be about 8” deep, but will keep me level with the top of the frame… the frame is 72”, the locks can be any wear from 2-3 inches over hung either direction and still be inside of the tubes-so that puts the locks out to 77” about. Add 3 inches of gap and the number is 80” between the locks. Times 40 by 1.63 and I get…

Zack I’m always open minded to your share of knowledge and it’s hard to argue when you can explain it with such logic in detail and confidence. I imagine you see so many bad set ups has to do with the same as me seeing bad set ups in my field as well. What I’ve seen is that the sales people at the shops of whatever sport or hobby you have. Seem to always “say sure that would work great”for most questions reinforcing the customer so they’ll buy.

@GearGarageTV

3 жыл бұрын

I’m pretty confident that there are a lot of people that sell oar raft set ups that don’t row.

You are a rockstar. I have learned so much from your videos. Already ordered new oars based on your last video. I also ordered an MTI high float vest thanks to Aaron.keep the info coming! Thank You, Greg

@GearGarageTV

3 жыл бұрын

Thank you for the nice words!

@gregoryyoung8490

3 жыл бұрын

@@GearGarageTV I think a lot of people would benefit from a similar video for paddle length in Inflatable Kayaks. I talked to several people including Werner last year and got a lot of "hems and Haws". The easy answer is to try different lengths out on the water but If you don't have any to try that isn't much help.

@GearGarageTV

3 жыл бұрын

@@gregoryyoung8490 The quick answer is 230 or 240.

Thanks, Zach. I've always wondered about this; I am going to go measure the distance between my oar towers and follow your math.

@GearGarageTV

3 жыл бұрын

Awesome. If you have time can you tell me the ratio of your current set up?

I bought the rest of it and riging accordingly thanks

Can't get enough of your videos. Thanks. You mention that sitting low on the frame is best and give good reasons for body and boat geometry. I noticed on your 18' Rogue boats, that the captain sits on a cooler and is much more elevated than you recommend in this video.

@GearGarageTV

2 жыл бұрын

Sitting lower on our 18's would be nice but we are constrained by the height of the cooler so we do the best we can

Very helpful

Thanks man.

Great vid.

Hey I just wanted to take a minute and thank you for your videos. I am finding that in spite of the fact that rafting is so popular, there is not a lot of available information out there. You are shortening the learning curve for me for sure!

@GearGarageTV

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks for the comment!

Love all the great advice, Brother. Just picked up my first boat and am now on the hunt for a frame amongst other things. Boat is a 2016 hyside 14xt. Trying to figure out the appropriate frame size for it. Basically starting from scratch as I've only been on other people's setups. Thoughts on the frame? Might do some fly fishing but mostly interested in lazier floats with friends under a Bimini. Seems less daunting to start there and then work my way up to the more epic. Cheers

@GearGarageTV

2 жыл бұрын

I would call a frame builder like Recretec or Down River. I bet they could help you out.

I appreciate you 😎👍

Huge thanks for all the video work you do. Learning so much from all of the info. I have a super puma raft, more fishing focused than whitewater but often seeing class III+. As a smaller raft when I’m loaded for a trip it makes sense to sit on a cooler/dry box vs more empty bay, which lifts me roughly 6” above tube height. On your recommendations you say that 8” oar towers are the optimal size, but is there ever a case where you’d compensate with a 10” tower to keep the water entry angle more consistent based on elevated seat height? This would require longer oars but I wondered what your thoughts were. You could also adjust the spacer on the pins/clips to manage overall angle too. It would seem like there might be some kind of metric around shoulder height above frame, oar tower, and oar angle that could be figured out with a little science….

@GearGarageTV

2 жыл бұрын

I would try and lower your seat so you can stick with 8” towers. In my opinion 10” towers should be avoided for whitewater.

This calls for a massive oarswap!

@GearGarageTV

3 жыл бұрын

Yes most people I teach end up buying new oars after the class so I can only imagine how many oars need to be changed out there.

Great lesson! Just measured mine. My just new Aire 136DD has minimum frame width of 59” and my frame is 60”with 8”mounts. Got 67” between locks and I have 9’0” oars resulting a 30/70 ratio, sounds perfect. Now if I spread my mounts farther as you suggest I could not reach to ship my oars which would suck and would need longer oars based on 1.634. I know you did not mention shipping in this lesson but you have stressed and demonstrated it in the past. Seems hard to meet all your requirements unless you have a narrower frame...

@GearGarageTV

3 жыл бұрын

You have to decide between your ability to ship both oars effectively and the power of your stroke. I have long arms so I can have both. With shorter arms something has to give unless you use pins and clips which brings your oar closer to the inside when shipping. If you’re running technical rivers then stick with what you have so you can ship both oars. If your running bigger volume rivers consider a wider frame with longer oats so you have more power and control.

Zach, great advice--and timely as I am building a frame for a new 16' raft. A question about oar tower height. Using an NRS seat and their universal seat mount, I am as close to sitting on the frame as I can without some customization. My options for oar tower height are 6" or 8". Assuming the length of oar is the same using your 1.63 multiple times distance between the pivot on the oar towers, how do I choose which height is best? Will it really make any difference because when I am rowing I am raising my hands? Is it simply a matter of preference? Thanks!

@GearGarageTV

3 жыл бұрын

8” towers are pretty much always the way to go

Hey Zach, first off thanks for all of the videos, they are always informative and most of the time entertaining. ;-) Is there a lower frame width limit for your 1.63 rule of thumb? I have an Aire Sabertooth I'm getting a simple 1 bay frame set up for. It's 58" between the oar locks. Using the 1.63 rule I get 7.8'. I actually drafted up the setup in AutoCAD with all of the dimensions including my shoulder height and using that mock up I am getting oar lengths between 8.5' and 9.0' for the oar blade to be in the water and have the handles touch when straight out. This varies a little depending on oar tower height, but putting in 7.8' or even 8.0' oars has my blades halfway out of the water. Thoughts?

@GearGarageTV

3 жыл бұрын

I haven't tested this with mini-rafts but I'm guessing the equation holds for small boats too. I'm interested to hear what size you went with and if it was a good idea or not. My best guess is that you need to have your oar towers wider and you're possibly sitting too high. It's hard to know without seeing any photos.

HI Zach, so glad I found you!! Your insight and advice is priceless!! Thank you for doing what you do! I just purchased a 120 RMR and found one of the last frames available in the state to go with it as well as the only DRE captains chair l could find. Stock is non existent out here. I'm getting a DRE 3 bay Gunnison 66"x 54" frame. Center to center on side tubes is 53". I don't have it yet to take measurements but I'm told that an 8'6" oar length is OK verses the 9'. And that if i were to go with 9' i should get the 66"xy60" frame. I understand that I will be sitting higher than recommended, but which length would be the best for this setup?? Thanks again...back to watching more of your vids!!!

@GearGarageTV

3 жыл бұрын

I'm stoked to hear you like the show! I would urge you to not sit that high if you want to maximize the effectiveness of your oar stroke. If your goal is a comfortable seat and a good view then that seat is fine. As for oar length I think this video spells out a pretty easy way to figure that out.

@uncleloney7072

3 жыл бұрын

Copy that! I'll do the math when I pick up the frame. Still piecing together the package...oar towers, locks, etc...so not sure yet on final numbers or how much tower and lock heights will affect my stroke...but it sounds like the lower the better! And, yes, comfort and good back support on all day fishing or multi day trips was the reasoning for the DRE seat vs. a truckers seat or padded box. Your advice will help me figure it out! Thanks for the reply and all the great videos...I'll keep you posted!!

Great advice. One question, what about the angle of the oar towels? It seems like most boats are set up with a -15 to -20 degree angle, but I've seen some with less or more. Does it depend on the height of the rower, or is there an ideal angle for maximum efficiency?

@GearGarageTV

3 жыл бұрын

The angle of the oar towers doesn't really matter much. The position of the oar lock is all that matters to me. In my opinion you want the oar lock as wide as you can get it without being wider than the boat.

Do you have a guideline for the height of the oar tower? Thanks for this video!

@GearGarageTV

2 жыл бұрын

8” is pretty standard

Hey Zach. When you see oars the 'wrong' length, what do you see predominantly? Too long, or too short? I like your thinking, and was quite close to your specs by feel. My oars for my 11.5 ft Puma are 8.5 ft, 8 ft would be better, but they work. My longer 10 ft oars are perfect for my bigger boat. But I did move my oar rights a couple inches, to get a little more leverage. Will try it out this Saturday. Anyway, I love the videos. Impressive output, keep it up!

@GearGarageTV

3 жыл бұрын

I usually see oars that are too short and people sitting too high.

So, for my john boat, which is a lazy water drift boat, I only need 6 ft oars? I'll do it if that's your suggestion

I'm pretty new to the rafting world, does the oar length include the blade or just the shaft itself? thanks for the help

@GearGarageTV

3 жыл бұрын

Yes it includes the shaft and the blade

Great show. Looks like I am sitting a bit high. For oar length, are you including the blade?

@GearGarageTV

2 жыл бұрын

Yes

Hey Zach! Big fan of the Gear Garage and everything you do. I have a quick question. I have a RMR Phat Cat and have been running strictly R2, but ordering my setup for my solo career. I just got the frame built by RMR specifically for the Phat Cat. I followed your formula for oar length and the distance from oar to lock is 54”. According to the formula that would be a 7.5 ft oar. Would I be safe with a 8 ft. oar? Definitely going with the Sawyer due to your reviews! Thanks man!

@GearGarageTV

2 жыл бұрын

I'm stoked you like the show. Yes I'd probably go with the 8' oar. The oar formula works for regular sized rafts but is imperfect for really big and small rafts.

@joeyeazitzis8622

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks for the quick response! That makes sense. I’m going to set my outfit up this weekend and see if I need to go with different oar towers. The RMR ones are straight up and down. They do give you the option to go inside or outside the rail, but if they rest in the center of the tube, I can gain a little more distance with an extended tower. Any suggestions on good oar towers?

I love your videos. I have been a guide for 30 years and I think body shape and size must be addressed and rowing style. I'm a barrel chested guy I can not stand if my oars are less than 3 inches apart at the handles. I was antii the DRE high flip seat and now absolutely love them . better vision I'm only 5ft 10 . I also use my legs beneath me to row. I need to come out and meet you and try some things. I'm also a forward rower but do use the back ferry when necessary. so we could discuss that. Love how your educating people maybe I need to send some videos you can critique me.

@GearGarageTV

2 жыл бұрын

I'm stoked to hear you like the videos. There are a lot of ways to row and the videos give the best advice for most people.

Out comes the tape measure

I've got a 9' cat boat I use for stuff like fishing the Deschutes, etc., and it always feels awkward no matter how I tweak it. Based on your x1.63 math from oar lock to oar lock, I need 6' 9.5" oars, and am running 7's. Do you think that much of a length difference could be my problem, and is worth cutting them down to 6'9.5" for (I could easily just chop a little off at the handle end and re-mount the handles.) I'm guessing that with a smaller boat like this every inch of oar length is as proportionally crucial as it would be with a bigger boat?

@GearGarageTV

2 жыл бұрын

I don’t use boats that small so I’m not sure

Another helpful vid. Zach, what about the position of the towers in relation to the length of the boat. Is it always best to have the towers as close to the center as possible? Do you move the towers toward the bow or stern depending on the load or passengers?

@GearGarageTV

3 жыл бұрын

Yep it's a complicated topic. In general you're more maneuverable if your towers are at the center but it's generally not a big deal if they are forward or back. I'm working on a video about this.

@chrisavila2788

3 жыл бұрын

@@GearGarageTV Fantastic, I'm looking forward to your video. Thanks so much for all your work. Great content.

Hey could you do a video about setting up fly fishing frames on rafts? Or maybe a complete video series on the subject there doesn’t seem to be many videos talking about flyfishing specific rafts

@GearGarageTV

Жыл бұрын

I don’t know much about fishing so I’m probably the wrong person to ask about this

Hey Zack! (Zach?) Anyway, I just got a puma and want to get it setup to row for lightweight overnighting. I saw in your other video that you don't think some of your advice applies to boats below 13'. What would your advice be for a small, narrow boat?

@GearGarageTV

3 жыл бұрын

The same

@talaananthes

3 жыл бұрын

@@GearGarageTV ok thanks. What advice would you have when designing a frame from scratch to avoid common pitfalls? I'm planning on a 3 bay with dropbags covered by a small table, rowers compartment, and either a yeti 65 or canyon 55. I've built frames for larger boats and cats before but thinking through something this small is weird. Given that the center compartment depth is 10.25" and either cooler is 16" tall, do you think I'd be better off sitting on the table, maybe with a foam seat pad, with the cooler in front? I think that might work better for weight distribution anyway.

At what point would you say ok that’s enough length between locks? My boat is 80” wide with my double rail frame I could easily locate my locks 80” apart but that would call for an 11’ oar. My boat is a 14’ which is 80” wide my frame is 66” wide. I’m currently running 9’ oars which are too short, I think I’m going to place my locks 74” apart and buy 10’ oars. What’s your thoughts on those numbers? Also thanks for these videos there’s a real need for this info! Compare our understanding to other sports such as cycling and we’re in the dark ages setting up geo’s on rowing setups.

@GearGarageTV

2 жыл бұрын

Yep the 74" apart on a 14' raft with 10' oars sounds pretty ideal

I agree with the initial ideas about sitting lower and making the oar locks as wide as possible. I can't really get on board with the 1.63 number though. I actually like longer oars then most do, but the 1.63 number makes for longer oars then even I like. For my Dory that is 83" between locks that would make for 11.5' oars. I tried 11's and to fully submerge the blade it had 12-18" of the shaft in the water as well. I ended up going with 10'3" oars for that (ideally 10.5' but they are "friend made" custom oars and he only had 10'3" material so YOLO). If we set the raft up like you said, my 16' Avon Pro would need 12.5' oars and an 18' NRS raft would need 13.5' oars. Is that how you set your 18' boats up for your guiding service? Seems like 1.5 is a much more realistic number for most setups and most people. Sorry... didn't see this video till today when someone posted it on Mountainbuzz.

@GearGarageTV

2 жыл бұрын

We use 11’ oars for out 18 footers. You probably have our oar towers too far apart. My guess is that you are sitting too high and compensate with tall oar towers that splay out really wide.

@jonahwhale9047

6 ай бұрын

How high are your rowlock above the waterline?

@Hakudog5

6 ай бұрын

@@GearGarageTV Zombie comment response... someone responded and I saw your response. Perhaps sitting too high since I sit on a cooler. Oar towers are mounted to the outside of the frame which sits just inside the chafe pad on the raft. Mildly splayed out.... just a few degrees off vertical. On the Dory, the oar lock sits just above knee height and are attached on the inside of the gunnel. It is a fairly standard Briggs style double ender, though it does have a wider floor(54-55" I think) then some since its aluminum and doesn't have to stick to the constraints of plywood sizing but its 18' long and 80". Like I said, if I use 11's with that boat, a lot of the oar shaft has to be in the water. The seat is basically as low as it can be in the boat. I use 10'3" oars with it now. I wanted 10'6" but I had some custom oars made and they longest material they had on hand was a few inches short of that.

@Hakudog5

6 ай бұрын

@@jonahwhale9047 I've honestly not measure that and its variable from trip to trip and day to day depending on how its loaded.

Zach, I am building a small single bay frame for my 10'-0" raft. I will be sitting on the frame rail with a poly deck and foam. I am setting the oar towers as far out as possible, but my only question would be, how tall should the oar towers be if I am sitting as low as possible? I am sure it depends a little on rower height, but how high is too high?

@GearGarageTV

Жыл бұрын

In my opinion oar towers should not be more than 8"

Been thinking about chopping my frame length wise so I can fit it in my car and don't need to break it down every single time I go boating. Other than the fact that someone taller wouldn't be able to use it do you think there are any drawbacks? Boat rigidity maybe? I have an aire sabertooth with an NRS longhorn frame (48×50)

@GearGarageTV

2 жыл бұрын

I’m not sure. Depending on how you connect it you might lose soMe rigidity.

@weirdbeard1980

2 жыл бұрын

@@GearGarageTV I try to set up my frame so that my seat is slightly behind the middle and my oar towers are slightly infront (per your recommendation). I guess I'll let ya know if I go ahead and do it lol

I have a question. I own a 13. Foot super puma. I want to set up a rear row set up. How do i know to match a rear deck set up with the correct oar size? Im afraid to make a purchase and find out later my set up does not match your 5 rules. Thanks.

@GearGarageTV

Жыл бұрын

To get proper oar length check the other video I did about that

Do you use counter balanced oars?

@GearGarageTV

3 жыл бұрын

No. I like oars that float.

I bought a factory cat 14 foot with 19 inch diameter toons. the 8 foot oars worked fine. Then I put 25 inch toons on the frame and this forced me to get longer oars to reach the water. The fixed oar locks are at a 56 inch spread only allowing 27 inches for handle to oar lock. I guess I need a wider frame for larger toon? Is the some math to follow when choosing toon diameter and width of frame so that I have a 30 % oar inside the lock? Was that clear?

@GearGarageTV

2 жыл бұрын

Yes I have another video about this. The quick answer is to multiply the distance between your oar locks by 1.63 to get your oar length. Tube diameter does play role but it's small compared to the distance between your oar locks.

@solitudeoutdoors

2 жыл бұрын

@@GearGarageTV because of the larger diam toons I have gone from 8 ft oars on 19 inch toons to 9.6 . This puts very little oar length from hand to oar lock and I need to counterbalance with 7 pounds. I seems that the Tube diameter does play a large role. What's your take?

Which oar length would you use with a 12' hyside max with 66"x54" down river 3-bay frame?

@GearGarageTV

Жыл бұрын

I have a video about oar length that recommends multiplying the distance between your oar locks by 1.63 to get oar length.

@Bertiemang

Жыл бұрын

@@GearGarageTV I did watch it, I'm just in the situation where I will be ordering the raft package prior to having it in-person, so I won't be able to measure it.

How do shoal cuts effect your protocols

@GearGarageTV

3 жыл бұрын

Probably not much

Same guidelines for stern oar rigs?

@GearGarageTV

3 жыл бұрын

I haven’t tried this out with stern frames so I can’t say for sure but I would assume that it would be the same.

I assume setting the height of the oarlocks when the oars are horizontal would place the oars just above the knees. How does height of rower change seat height and then also change height of oarlocks? At 6'3" my position would be different than my wife's at 5'3". I guess tube diameter would also impact this relationship.

@GearGarageTV

3 жыл бұрын

I would suggest 8” oar locks for every set up. If your sitting low with 8” oar locks your knees will be out of the way. Yes paddler height and tube diameter are secondary factors but the are minor compared to what I mentioned.

Hi Zach. I'm getting a whole new setup, after loosing everything in the Almeda fire. I ordered a raft - 14', 20" tubes, 80" wide. I'm getting a Down River Colorado frame (dbl rail, 4-bays), and it's width is 80". I plan to modify it to get the towers on the tubes. I've been watching a few of the recent vids about oar length, seat height, and general setup (great info thanks). In a previous video you talk about the towers being on the center of the tube. I'm inclined, based on this video, and my previous setup to push it out to the edge of the raft, so the oar locks are 78". That gives me 10.5' oars. I'm 6' and have always used a drybox with a seat on it (maximize dry space), and yes I was often having to push the oars closer to my stomach level, rather than up near my chest. So, it sounds like I need to run longer oars than I was previously, and get by butt down closer to frame level, and I might have a better rowing experience. I'm not sure I have a question, other than - does it sound like I'm thinking about this right? My previous setup was created about 20 years ago, and I really didn't know what I was doing, so I just copied what I saw others doing.

@GearGarageTV

2 жыл бұрын

Yes oars pushed to the outside of the boat is fine. I would suggest keeping your oar locks from extending beyond the raft's width so if you hit a rock on the side it it's the raft and not the oar lock. It's generally better to sit closer to the frame if you can make it happen so maybe sit on the dry box directly and skip the seat.

@sjimerfield

2 жыл бұрын

@@GearGarageTV I'm getting lots of push back from folks at Sawyer and Down River saying 10' oars are what you need. 10.5' is too much. An oar setup these days is quite pricy, so I want to get this right.

How does rower height factor in? You’re a tall dude, but what about someone who is short? Would it actually make sense to elevate with a seat on the box?

@GearGarageTV

12 күн бұрын

It plays a small role but not as much as you might think. Being lower is good so being short is an advantage.

I have always tried to keep a little gap between the end of the oar handles to minimize pinch hazard. You don't worry about that?

@GearGarageTV

3 жыл бұрын

Nope I don't worry about that. Usually my oars are not level to the water when I'm rowing.

@downtheriv

3 жыл бұрын

Good guidelines here, I like having the smallest possible gap between oar grips at the tightest spot. I once had to row with overlapping oars in a pinch. I thought it was horrible, kinda surprised Zach advocates an overlap option. I have also had friends smash thumbs on my set up because they row with their thumbs on the end of the grip. Just my 2 cents

@GearGarageTV

3 жыл бұрын

@@downtheriv I advocate for a small gap, no gap, or a slight overlap. Some boaters can manage their oars with an overlap in a way that they don't risk smashing their thumbs. Sometimes I like the extra leverage a slight overlap gives me. For those that are able to row overlapping oars the noticeable downside is that it makes it harder to ship the oars.

Have you ever slammed your hand in an oar handle collision. Seems that's the hazard with Cross over or close tolerance oar handles might be injury sustaining for a novice

@GearGarageTV

3 жыл бұрын

I've hit my hands here and there but never slammed them. I would personally choose more control of my raft over the possibility of hitting my hands.