I would be very interested to see a video from you on single versus double-hulled submarines

@Weliketohavefunhere

2 жыл бұрын

Same.

@vincentzhi9555

2 жыл бұрын

+1 for this

@riskinhos

2 жыл бұрын

x4

@HISuttonCovertShores

2 жыл бұрын

I'll give it some thought, thanks

@soddinnutter5633

2 жыл бұрын

Fifth-ing (?) this request. Subbrief probably can't make a video going into the minutiae of design decisions, since he risks (due to his background) getting a knock on his door from some people in black suits.

One possible reason for small coastal subs is to create a large number of small assets for the Taiwan scenario. IF the US chooses to intervene, larger SSKs & SSNs will be needed to hold off the US intervention force farther out in deep waters. AIP & Li-battery equipped midget subs would have more than enough range & endurance to blockade Taiwan in shallow waters & neutralize the RoCN in support of an amphibious landing, especially when supported by large numbers of UUVs, type 022s & type 056 green water assets. A larger quantity of these midget SSKs can also cover a larger AO than a small number of regular-sized SSKs.

@VileCAESARB

2 жыл бұрын

Was exactly my thoughts.

@alamagordoingordo3047

2 жыл бұрын

I was thinking the same.

@BeKindToBirds

2 жыл бұрын

It is an evolution that has taken place an infinite number of times because it is always how things are balanced. Smaller and more is better than better has played out so many times in warfare that it is a fundamental rule in how any powers interact

@liammarra4003

2 жыл бұрын

Yes indeedy

@Sacred_l0g1x

2 жыл бұрын

TIME to get kamikaze uuv drones for Taiwan to counter this threat in a unsymmetrical ways eh lol

China is THE major supplier of Lithium batteries and the Iron Phosphate version solves the safety problem of the classical Li-Ion cell.

The fact that you're pulling this off in MS Paint is hilarious and impressive.

@MardukTheSunGodInsideMe

2 жыл бұрын

Next week, he will be using Windows 3.1 MSpaint just to flex.

The BYD blade battery is a good candidate. It’s an LFP cell so lower power to weight then an NMC but the blade is even safer then other LFP on the market. Can be punctured and just refuses to go into thermal runaway. Attractive for naval use.

@MrGMoney1944

10 ай бұрын

Except it doesn't tolerate low temperatures, particularly well. Whether that matters for a coastal submarine in the waters off the Chinese mainland, I truly don't know but should be considered.

@unixfg

9 ай бұрын

Humans also don't tolerate low temperatures well, so that can be solved. @@MrGMoney1944

@karenrobertsdottir4101

8 ай бұрын

@@MrGMoney1944 That's irrelevant. Even car-scale EV battery packs are thermally managed. It would be nonsensical for a submarine to not thermally manage its battery pack. I agree with Gary (hey, I think I remember you from Xitter :) Enn nafnlaus. I'm on Bluesky and Mastodon now :) ). Li-ion batteries are not monolithic. There are non-flammable li-ion chemistries. You give up a bit of energy for that, but nothing catastrophic. Indeed, the main thing sacrificed is mass density anyway, but for submarines volumetric density often matters more. A typical (high-energy-density) NMC pack is only 20%-ish denser than water! It should go without saying, but: submarines have to weigh down that large volume of air that they enclose, and something the density of water contributes nothing toward that end. I'd also add another addendum: H I Sutton stated that electric motors have rather limited power density. Respectfully, I must disagree there. Modern electric motors are insanely power dense. And to boot, here you get free liquid coolant for your pack and motor, as much as you want. I rather wonder if the limiting factor in a practical design might actually be prop strength. Honestly, it'll probably just be a balance of all factors battery power, motor power, cooling limits, shaft strength, and prop strength. You only have so much mass and volume to go around. One thing is certain, however: it has the potential to be *very* fast. You're basically building a modern electric torpedo, just with a bit of added drag to enclose that air volume. But most of the internal volume not used for air will be batteries.

Risk of using large lithium batteries on a submarine are similar to use in manned spacecraft. In a thermal runaway the gasses produced are highly toxic and corrosive to metals. The "ejecta" from cells contains high temperature metallic particles that can act like a blowtorch. In one 2008 failure on a US submersible, runaway battery modules cut through 1/2 inch titanium pressure vessel (the battery housing) as well as the composite pressure hull of the vehicle. Newer electrolyte formulations increase safety but expensive risk mitigations usually needed.

@tuvoca825

2 жыл бұрын

Sounds risky. Unless they already have solid state batteries... or they are drones (or fewer people/drone adjacent).

@otm646

2 жыл бұрын

This fire containment issue was solved in the mid 2000s. Intermetallics can take the heat and cutting action near effortlessly.

@nooneno12

2 жыл бұрын

LHP: lithium Iron Phosphate much less prone to internal shorts than traditional Li batteries.

@nooneno12

2 жыл бұрын

@@TheInfidel_SlavaUA Ferrite is iron

@woolnerjones8868

2 жыл бұрын

The US submarine community is still fixated on the 2008 submersible lithium-ion battery fire, which occurred in an experimental vessel at a very early stage in the application of lithium-ion batteries for submarines. Japan is now operating large submarines with lithium-ion battery (LIB) systems without any apparent problems, and South Korea is following this lead with the Hanwha-Samsung modules that have been rigorously tested for submarine use (KSS-III B2). Future all-battery SSEs will have much lower discharge rates than diesel-electric subs with LIB main batteries, and with appropriate design the risks will be lower than current lead-acid battery systems.

Really would love a video on the advantages and disadvantages of single hull/double hull construction. Top work!

@jebise1126

2 жыл бұрын

more performance but higher price

@alexanderhamilton4258

10 ай бұрын

@@jebise1126 Also, more weight and more hull covered by water.

I loved the beginning when you made a comment about having a bad mic and not apologizing because we come here for the content. Thank you so very much thats exactly why I come here and I appreciate it. Again thank you great video

@HISuttonCovertShores

2 жыл бұрын

I appreciate that!

@vikingskuld

2 жыл бұрын

@@HISuttonCovertShores you make great content and I can't tell you in qords how much I appreciate that. I just recently found your channel and I'm thrilled I did. Thank you for all your work and the quality of it. It's easy to find someone on KZread yhat exaggerates or has very little knowledge of a topic talking about it like they know everything. People like you are priceless on here. Thank you

@user-nk9vu2un9h

5 ай бұрын

I agree 💯

Very cool video. Always interesting to see new subs coming out no matter the nation. Am out of the USN (sonar tech) now, but still like following news about sub development.

The hull dimensions (40-50m x 4.7m) appear to be very similar to those of the South Korean advanced minisubs HDS-400/500. Cutaways of those subs suggested they could have 120-150 lithium-ion battery modules (Hanwha-Samsung), each with a capacity of 85kWh for a total main battery capacity of 10-13MWh. This would provide a zero indiscretion patrol endurance of 20-24 days. We can expect the main battery capacity could double by the mid-late 30s.

@Rays_Bad_Decisions

2 жыл бұрын

It's a sabotage spec ops sub. Getting ready for taiwan or maybe japan

@crhu319

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks, good calculation. Compressed air may be better storage method though.

@DamnedSilly

Жыл бұрын

Chemically, double is a pretty high guess. We're already closer to theoretical limits than that. In a perfect world 50% is closer.

@jennydavidstokesjones8454

Жыл бұрын

@@DamnedSilly You're referring to the theoretical limits of lithium-ion batteries, which are the "1st technology" of the light metal battery era. 2nd & 3rd technologies (solid state, lithium-sulphur & non-lithium chemistries including aluminium) have energy densities 3-5X higher than Li-ON batteries, and we can expect to see these coming into maturity in the 30s, 40s and 50s. Aluminium chemistries will be of particular interest for subs because of their high specific density (mass/volume) & high volumetric energy density.

@DamnedSilly

Жыл бұрын

@@jennydavidstokesjones8454 ...and by then we'll have cold fusion. I stick to proven tech. ;]

Not only interesting content, but great analysis of this vessel's size and hull type. I appreciate this type of added value in your videos. Oh, and a yes to double vs. single hull video. It's also fascinating to see the development process of Chinese requirements, albeit with limited available data.

Although unscripted and with (what you consider) a sub-par microphone, your years of experience with presentations make this segment shine. Your outstanding background information elevates Covert Shores above the competition.

Great video. Fascinating to see what one talented analyst/subject matter expert can deduce with one single photo. What was the geolocate tool you used? Also, please quit pointing out “you can tell that its unscripted.” No, we cannot. Outstanding content. You are allowed to pause to think. I will pause and think with you. Keep it up!

@HISuttonCovertShores

2 жыл бұрын

I geolocated it using Google Earth, no trick tools. The lack of background landmarks was a pain but familiarity with Chinese shipbuilding helped. Geolocation on this one is maybe 80% confident

US navy seals developed a mini sub with lithium based batteries but it caught fire whilst recharging.

@woolnerjones8868

2 жыл бұрын

That was in 2008, very early in the application of lithium-ion battery technology in submarines. A great deal of work has been done since then to evaluate and validate the use of lithium battery technology in subs.

Your is, Sir, one of the most underrated channels on KZread. Keep up with great analysis, without prejudice or hype...

I don't have a need to know about submarines. But this has to be one of the most informative channels in all of KZread!

The amount of assets thats need to mobilize to contain just 1 sub, now imagine they sending a dozen on patrols ..

Only issue with Lithium batteries is once they start on fire, the fire is uncontrolled.

LFP batteries in a blade format could address risk of fire issues. They could probably be mounted outside the pressure hull tho adding mass above the centreline may be problematic.

I enjoy the free format and great insights you provide in these videos. Thank you.

My understanding is that it is the latest shortened (150 - 170 ft) liquid oxygen-diesel-electric variant of the type 039-C Yuan, which has been continually modified over the last few years and is sometimes mistaken for the type 041. Its most likely export markets will be Pakistan, Myanmar, and Thailand. Notably, though, it does not seem to have the sail usually found on prior 039C Yuan types, which seemed to be copied from Sweden's Class A26.

I've really been enjoying these videos... I found Jive Turkey/Sub Brief through Jingles, and you through Jive, and although I'm not a mariner and I get seasick just looking at a bathtub, there's something really compelling about submarines. And I don't know if this is an answerable question, but at any given time, on the whole planet, roughly (i.e. VERY ballpark) how many crewed, submerged vehicles or fixed installations (do we even do those still?) are underway in our seas and oceans? From all nations combined, naval and civilian?

@HISuttonCovertShores

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah a few people have wondered about how many subs etc. Working it out would be more time than I can spare, but one thing to consider is that most submarines in the world spend much more time in port than at sea. And at-sea time varies greatly based on multiple factors.

Yesssss!!!! Another video from H.I Sutton. Great video. Thank you Sir. Looks like German 209 crossed with a Japanese Soryu class. I wonder if it has the best of their capabilities. Super scary

I work for an electronics recycling center. I can tell you that lithium batteries create their own oxygen when punctured so we’re not allowed to get them out. If we suspect a battery may have been damaged (even if it’s still in its product) we HAVE to put in in a special (and specifically labeled) container

You come across as having specialisation in this area, so thank you !! very comprehensive, like the deep dive style overall view how it fits in to the navy compared to other countries... But especially all the specs and guesstimates and the reasoning of how you came to or calculated your conclusion (or lack of) ... Q: I can see how with the recent technological advances, low earth orbit wifi, machine learning, and autonomous vehicles..... .I suppose my question is if this scenario is out of the question: Lithium Polimer LiPo battery storage perfected in recent tech that is size and weight constrictive.. like the 25 minutes of prop power you get on a DJI drone, compared to previously requiring four chainsaw motors and a 5 Litre petrol tank... that it is double hulled of sorts, but just a really thin shell, used for sensors and counter electronics (dynamic ping response, electronic countermeasures)... cutting size down more, multiple undersea 'fuel tankers' or even just charge ports on the sea bed. Size savings cut down by the energy to powertrain efficiencies is one thing...... Whats the next biggest space cost?..... life support..... what are the chances this is autonomous or semi autonomous..?? ......My conclusion based on intuition alone (other than specialising in Drones, their, macbook air and phone batteries) is that the whole powertrain and generation system, has been replaced, with a battery, massive ESC and a motor that alone are smaller than they were 5 years ago, its only a one way mission to the next charge point, then you take out the human life support systems and the requirement for humans to be on board for anything other than maintenance or loading/unloading.... And that is still a shitload of space left over for payload ... I have absolutely no doubt that the tech exists to be able to remotely control a sub at the bottom of the mariana trench.......and that if its a prototype, that its small due to them wanting to mass produce it... Thanks mate!!

@wardogmobius

2 жыл бұрын

Incredible info. So new underwater warfare stradegy will be hidden autonomous small submarines that be a threat to the U.S aircraft carrier fleets and Japan navy.

Just a quick comment, interesting analysis. I use to work on subs in Australia. Lithium batterys don't vent off so much hydrogen as lead acid as the electrolyte composition is not so much hydrogen based as sulphuric acid eg Hydrogen Sulphate. Lifepo4 batterys are not that unsafe either they can withstand quite a lot of damage before being a really bad fire hazard. The problem with these batterys are a electrical fire caused by ionised gasses which can happen to any battery with a high enough capacity Inc lead acid batterys. In essence its enough energy to melt holes through the hull.

@ianr2247

2 жыл бұрын

U probably worked on the Collins class then. A pricey sub but we are getting long term use out of it.

@bretthorwood9396

2 жыл бұрын

@@ianr2247 Oberon Class subs transitioning to Collins class at the time. Subs essentially haven't changed in the basic elements. It's still a fossil fuelled oxygen consuming engine of some discription like diesel elect or the alternative a Nuke pwerd one. To me they are like a pressure tube under the water and fairly unsettling in a war to be locked in at 700 odd feet down. The only real answer to a propulsion system is a nuke boat and it looks like they are going to be it for us. The problem bow is Morrison and Dutton just put us on the nuke target list by announcing it early to the world when they could have kept it quiet for a while behind the scenes. They are overly worried the comos are going to invade Australia and overrun the gov jobs they are presiding over like fat cats with a big pension at the end, fairly sad arrangement unfortunately for our population now.

@suisinghoraceho2403

2 жыл бұрын

@@bretthorwood9396 the hurried announcement has Bojo’s fat fingers all over it. More for him to gain political points.

@crypteiansentry1922

2 жыл бұрын

@@bretthorwood9396 you are correct in most of your answer, however the perceived threat is only at the behest of being fed lies and propaganda by the USA. Australia has traded peacefully and longer than the damning rhetoric of scumo. Australia imposed 25 claims against China in Jan 2019 through the WTO, and China retalited hard, because of scumo's now self proclaimed bulldozer attitude. The sting is every thing we lost, was picked up by the USA and now they, despite the claims of no trade etc, enjoy our losses. The same bulldozer tactic was done to the French, at the request of the potus, and the UK. We have to pay for. Breach of contract with the French, while scumo sets us into a one trillion dollar deficit. The subs will not appear for thirty years, now they say forty. Will this still be one trillion dollars? Is Australia a projective power in our region? What purpose will nuclear subs fill if they cannot be nuclear armed? That was not something they were able to discuss, because the nation, like NZ is opposed to this. In some way I hope Albo and the ... yggh Greens...win and they scap AUKUS. Scrap this sub deal because scumo FUBAR it by not getting bipartisan approval and it is technically a null and void document in its current form. News fact 16May2022. He will have plenty of money to fic Australia first. I am a Veteran of 30 years service, but all we have done by proxy of the Government's, is run with America when they whistle. I was discharged with PTSD in 2010. During this time I have studied, traveled globally and even remarried. I am studying a degree in History, modern and nation specific to seek answers as to why I and my relatives and mates fought and died for America. The answers are not acceptable, after SVN, the last country to ask for American help, every other sovereign nation was forcibly invaded by the USA & NATO. We by way of our governments were led illegally into these countries to commit acts of War. I was deluded then to think I was serving and protecting Australia, but I could not be further from the truth. If we were to combine the ANZAC forces to defend New Zealand, we would be lucky if the islands were left above the water level. IMHO our best solution would be to cut ties with the USA, call them allies if you like...but stop being a launching pad for them in their need to have wars. We should concentrate on our regional neighbors and work together to create a stable and harmonious South West Pacific as well as with Indonesia, Malaysia, Thailand and South East Asia. Australia does not need America's apron strings to hold onto and we would have less threats without them. We should also make the top 12 companies in Australia pay taxes in Australia before any product can be mined or drilled out. They are all owned by USA and UK. One last point recently released, scumo was the minister who signed the papers across for the Port of Darwin...makes you think zbout him being a compulsive liar.

@bretthorwood9396

2 жыл бұрын

@@crypteiansentry1922 agree with you.

I really enjoyed that. 👍 So many military videos are scripted ai voices and are totally dull and boring to listen to, but your unscripted explanation was very engaging and interesting. Your explanation was also simple to follow. Good job👍

Fabulous installment of your content. The description of your process in extrapolating information was as fascinating as the sub itself. I can easily imagine what fun it must have been taking a swing at calculating this boat's size. Well done, I'm impressed. And, I think the nickname is perfect. Especially considering the importance of the Olympics in politics and the controversy around China playing host.

Yeah, as a thought experiment and assuming it was designed practically and not purely experimentally, it seems ideal for a defensive/harassment role. Not something you'd send out on a cruise but a few could cover a large area creating a viable threat particularly in proportion to the investment.

The second submarine is a UUV and I guess would be used apart of the new ecosystem of underwater technology. That include new sonar arrays and deep water human rated facilities.

It could be in the “Experimental” category specifically “Unmanned Experimental Drone Sub”.

Great analysis, looking forward to the next one!

Thank you for the info!!! I think it’s a tad dangerous to compare a littoral sub to a blue water sub. They are built different for a reason, and to miss that fact it might give one a false sense of less threat. I see these kind of boats outperform surface ships all the time here in baltic. And a Swedish sub outmaneuvered a CSG in the Pacific as well. Thank you for the video 👍👍

I think its an cheap and simple export design for 'gifting' to other countries, a lot of the countries in the area which have had submarines/complex warships have struggled to maintain them in an operational state as they lack the manpower for large crews and technical resources to maintain complex engineered systems, they have preferred highly armed but simple corvettes and sloops as a consequence as they are a lot easier to maintain and operate. As such a simple submarine with some limited capability but importantly using off the shelf components and only requiring a crew of 10-15 sailors would be highly attractive compared to a larger more complex submarine with crews of 30-60.

@mikecarlson6416

2 жыл бұрын

small subs won't reduce the complexity of maneuvering, but huge reduction of range and sustainability. those midget subs will be consumed in the very first days of war. I would never bet my life on it and I don't think and lucid submariner may carry out same suicide missions

@watcherzero5256

2 жыл бұрын

@@mikecarlson6416 More survivable than a 500 tonne guided missile boat.

This channel keeps on giving, keep it up

Baby Shark Doo Doo had me rolling

Why wouldn't China want coastal subs? The United States has been building a litoral force for atleast 15 years and saying that litoral combat will be a major player in the future

China has quite developed capabilities with Lithium-FePO4 batteries. (Used for electric busses/trucks/utility vehicles)Those are safer then the normal cells and have a longer service life and higher allowed power output. Might be an idea for a submarine as well?

@HISuttonCovertShores

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah I try to say "lithium-based" instead of "Lithium-ion" but it's hard not to slip up. There are a few different variations being developed in different places, and submarine applications are likely to capitalize on the safest variations.

@woolnerjones8868

2 жыл бұрын

@@HISuttonCovertShores Agree - we've started using the term "Light Metal Battery" (LMB) to include the full spectrum of emerging battery technologies in coming decades. This will include batteries based on not only lithium but also aluminium, sodium etc. Lithium-ion battery (LIB) technology is just the beginning of the LMB revolution.

@michaelmichaelagnew8503

Жыл бұрын

When my sister was teaching in China they had one of these buses caught fire killing the kids and teacher aboard. Wet cell batteries will always have that big risk of catching fire. The gold mine of batteries will be dry cell ones like the ones Toyota is developing. Lighter safer and last longer.

Very informative as usual :D keep it up man

@HISuttonCovertShores

2 жыл бұрын

Appreciate it!

Interesting and informative . Thank-you for the information DML

H. I. Sutton: every video, you say "this video is unscripted, you can probably tell." Every video, I am surprised to here it. Your narration is really smooth and you are a confident speaker. I do partially disagree with your statement at 19:50. Top speed is, of course, restricted by both the motor and the battery. But I would be surprised if it's hard to make the electric motor larger to keep pace with larger batteries. In general, I believe that electric motors can have very high power density: more HP per liter than diesel engines, Stirling engines, or nuclear reactors. I would expect that, once you install higher power batteries, higher power motors is an easier problem. Naively, I might expect that the limit might be battery safety: you don't want to risk overpowering the Li-Ion battery pack's cooling capability.

@liammarra4003

2 жыл бұрын

For sure, nice and smooth. I prefer it, off the cuff and drawing, at that moment, from whatever knowledge you have. No problems with it

My cosh ! you certainly know your subject ! Don't worry about your microphone, you are very easy to understand . You know when someone really knows their subject when the just do it with out a script . Well done sir !

@HISuttonCovertShores

2 жыл бұрын

I appreciate that!

Another great video. Your website is unfortunately blocked in my region, but I've read many of your articles that have been reposted elsewhere with great interest. Cheers from a 1960s era diesel submariner!

HI Sutton: Excellent channel; can you or other here suggest a channel for modern surface navy ships and weapons?

ok are you guys all fking actual detectives XD? I mean this is some Criminal Minds level of investigation, you got maps satellites pictures progressions jesus, mad respect lol

Love your briefings H.I. and the articles you write for USNI, and others. Between you and Sub Brief, I feel I have a good understanding of the submarine threat and capabilities. Do you think we, the U.S. have good intelligence sources out of China?

@50megatondiplomat28

2 жыл бұрын

They rolled up our humintel assets in 2013 I think, all at once, very likely tortured and shot them all. We basically have zero inside information on the Chinese military and government since then. Frankly, I think we had better humintel coming out of the Soviet Union, and that wasn't much. We don't find out what the Chinese are working on until it basically starts operating.

What if these small subs are armed with - let’s say 10 to 15 missiles that can be deploy from underwater for ship to ship and ship to surface and perhaps deploying active noise saturation decoy drones to confuse. Yes, sonar uses DSP to identify objects provided that it is known signature. But when signals become noise, target solutions can be hard to determine. If there are 10 operating in an area with 100 missiles in total, maybe torpedo would not be require. Yes, it may sound far fetched but plausible.

Very good video and informative. Thank you bro and I subscribed

There is also a new generation of Dual-Mode superconducting motors. AMSC, Japan SC and Sumitomo are all set to launch small form factor SC motors in the next 10 years. They would give small displacement subs tremendous speed in SC mode and great endurance in conventional mode.

@woolnerjones8868

2 жыл бұрын

Agree. Superconducting motors combined with light metal battery technology will be a gamechanger for future non-nuclear submarines.

I know this would need an amazing amount of ballast, and also the option to drop it in case of a leak, but could you fill the space between the outer and inner hull of the sub with air/gas as to have a compressible shock absorber in the case of depth charges? So as the shockwave then crumples the then crumple designed outer hull and not transfer too much shock energy into the main inner hull. I'd belive the rubber coating containing air bubbles for absorbing sonar waves would have somewhat this effect. Or am I just rambling with MY physics understanding?

@Rays_Bad_Decisions

2 жыл бұрын

Air does not stop or absorb explosions underwater. It just transfers energy or causes more damage when it's bubble pops also

@bellybutthole

2 жыл бұрын

@@Rays_Bad_Decisions Hm ok, but are you not referring to cavitation, where there where no cavity to start with?

@silentdogfart4892

Жыл бұрын

@@bellybutthole 2 completely different things

big fan of your content. always well informed. i'm pretty sure i followed your website a bit ago as well.

Thanks so much for posting these excellent videos .

I imagine going from double to single hull would reduce the amount of sound damping between the internal machinery and the water. The fact that a single hull vessel has been built may imply that they have developed, or are experimenting with, some significantly improved sound isolating techniques.

@AsbestosMuffins

2 жыл бұрын

that or its not really part of the mission profile. the soviets never bothered much with noise dampening because they had more subs overall. if these are meant to patrol the south china sea, they might not have to worry about anti sub aircraft as much as the soviets in the north atlantic

@riskinhos

2 жыл бұрын

or...... that they are just being cheap like most of china military hardware.

@gustaveliasson5395

2 жыл бұрын

@@AsbestosMuffins The USSR didn't do a lot of soundproofing because early in the cold war they had really crappy passive sonar systems and assumed the systems on NATO boats was about as bad. Once they figured out that mistake, they put sound-deadening on the top of their submarine construction program's To Do-list. This resulted in various quick fix modifications to the design of the submarines then being produced, as well as entirely new projects designed from the ground up for quietness.

@blegi1245

2 жыл бұрын

Wrong way around. Single hull gives more interior volume and thus space for quieting techniques and sound dampening materials for the same hull diameter than double hull.

@thundercactus

2 жыл бұрын

the space between the first and second hull is most often filled with noise conducting water. If that space was filled with noise dampening foam, it would make a much bigger difference lol

At 600 tons, they could take 15 of them and deploy them from a (very loosely speaking) purpose-built but straightforward "LHS style" carrier that can be mass produced. Why the heck would they do that? It gets around the range issue, and lets them quickly move a lot of them around. Either towards contested/occupied islands or towards Taiwan, Nobody would know where exactly the swarm was deployed, and the submarines are immune to proliferating anti-ship missiles. In effect, this would push submarines from the strategic or at least theatre-scale asset role into the tactical echelons, complicating adversarys' aiming and targeting, and providing the typical swarm robustness.

"You came for the content....not the audio" 🤣🤣 thats excellent.....and right on the money👍👍

@HISuttonCovertShores

2 жыл бұрын

Brilliant, thank you.

Complete shot in the dark here, but could we be looking at a safety in numbers approach from the PLAN? Knowing that they are still behind in operating experience compared to navies that participated in the cold war, an admiral might conclude that attempting to match US and NATO submarines like for like would be unwise. Since it only takes one torpedo to destroy a sub, a small coastal submarine equipped with the latest weapons systems would present an equal threat to another submarine as a larger vessel would. Splitting the force into multiple vessels ensures survivability (for the task force as a whole anyway) and makes retaliation easier. You could even go so far as to employ wolfpack tactics, having one submarine goad an enemy into firing and revealing its location to the other waiting subs. Such a tactic could potentially be less costly in both resources and lives than staking a full size nuclear submarine against an enemy full size nuclear submarine 1 on 1, and the risk of a catastrophic total loss is much much slimmer

@woolnerjones8868

2 жыл бұрын

Exactly. The application of the Law of Requisite Variety (Ashby 1956) in the submarine battlespace. China is clearly not putting all its eggs in the SSN basket (as HI Sutton has pointed out previously). It's increasingly looking like China will have a mixed fleet of SSNs plus increasingly advanced and capable SSKs and potentially small SSEs in big numbers. Global Security shiplist for the latest Class 039 (Yuan) variant suggests that China could be building these at a rate of 3/year. Light metal battery technology (lithium batteries are just the first mainstream example of this technology) is a gamechanger, and SSKs and small SSEs will become increasingly potent relative to SSNs at a fraction of the cost. Your point is correct - regardless of whether the weapon that kills your multi-billion $$ SSN was delivered by another multi-billion $$ SSN or by a much cheaper SSK/SSE/UUV, it's still dead. "Competitive asymmetry".

@slslbbn4096

2 жыл бұрын

You got that right. The Chinese even have lead lined drones that irradiate US ships and carriers whenever they pass the South China Sea. There is no immediate effect but many sailors will get cancers in 10 years time. As an enlistee, it would be important to make sure the USN covers all cancers and diseases that may develop after deployments to the South China Sea

@bierfuerall

2 жыл бұрын

@@slslbbn4096 They get cancer from chemical, nuclear ammunition's, paints and so on. Warships are not build to safely be inhabited. Sailors are cheap

@SleekMinister

2 жыл бұрын

@@slslbbn4096 haha what

@soccom8341576

Жыл бұрын

ccp don't care about any lives. party first, people last.

I would also be very interested in seeing a video on sailed vs sailless designs. Thanks.

@HISuttonCovertShores

2 жыл бұрын

Try this Q&A video I made which covered pros and cons of sailless subs kzread.info/dash/bejne/o4uZyZmIc6rdZLw.html

Interesting tech to consider in a space research environment, I’m no expert but it seems common to test those systems in a small and cheep sub

I really appreciated your video, pretty good analysis and very detailed, please keep it up with the good work!

Could you do a video over the pros and cons of bow mounted vs sail mounted dive planes?

@HISuttonCovertShores

2 жыл бұрын

I'll try to remember next time I do a Q&A.

@soddinnutter5633

2 жыл бұрын

Seconding this request. I find it a very interesting topic.

@gyasiansa3358

2 жыл бұрын

@@HISuttonCovertShores That's one topic I've long being waiting for Hi Sutton

I personally have always liked smaller submarines. I just think it's awesome for sneaking. Around and doing covert work. I really would like to see advancements in giving sub drivers at least the option to see where they are going with either a type of LIDAR scanning technology that makes a 3d model of things around you, so no one runs into any rocky areas underwater. Another option could be a remote set of underwater camera's that provide a internal video feed to a display screen. Just like ROVs now are capable of having even at depth. I just think it would be beneficial since a lot of subs actually navigate pretty blindly when submerged. They got to find way to make they more maneuverable and adaptable in more complex waters that isn't just open water. I'm sure they have found really good acoustic dampening technology that they can line the sub with and greatly reduce any sound that the sub gives off. Just random thoughts 💭

@railgap

2 жыл бұрын

all those things require more holes in the hull. I've noticed sub designers (and drivers) don't like holes in their hulls.

@Puzzoozoo

2 жыл бұрын

@@railgap You can have get a good 4K cameras the diameter of a go-pro these days, so it's hardly going to be a big hole. 😉

@optimusprimer4392

Жыл бұрын

There's a reason why they don't use these Technologies cuz the enemy will be able to see them using it they will be a Sitting Duck for our submarines

@tylerlidster71

Жыл бұрын

@@Puzzoozoo glass lense on them won't with stand the pressure 😂👌🏻 plus visibility in water is rarely clear nuff to rely on for visual

@silentdogfart4892

Жыл бұрын

Coastal water rarely has good visibility. Couple windy days or an off shore storm and it'll drop down to a couple meters. LIDAR won't work. Cameras won't work. And any holes, even small ones, compromise hull integrity.

H I Sutton - Covert Shores - Please do a brief on the IJN I-400 from WWII and comment on the possibility of any modern type sub. I thought drones instead of aircraft for instance. TY Sir.

@HISuttonCovertShores

2 жыл бұрын

Only part of your question, but might be interesting kzread.info/dash/bejne/o4uZyZmIc6rdZLw.html

Please produce a video about the history and significance of the single vs double-hull approach to submarine design and construction.

I enjoy your presentations as they're factual and not political.

It could also be built as a means to keep the Wuhan shipyard that built it busy and employed (a form of industrial subsidization/economic stimulus, if you will), without necessarily costing PRC more money by building a regular-size sub. The PLAN's impressive growth cant continue forever, and thanks to the pandemic global trade is stagnating so orders for civilian ships will plateau for awhile. Building stuff like this should help tide the yards over until the next PLAN expansion or if the civilian trade picks up, or until the CPC decides its time for yard consoldidation and closings.

@HISuttonCovertShores

2 жыл бұрын

Interesting line of thought.

@d1492ay

2 жыл бұрын

Civilian ship order/construction is way up in China and the rest of the world due to increase in demand as a result of various easy monetary policies by central banks around the world. It doesn't really make sense for PLAN to build subs just to keep yards busy, since they are already very busy in China.

@ytsm

2 жыл бұрын

PLAN?

@calvinblue894

2 жыл бұрын

China usually builds not just for military, but also for commercial purposes. These small subs may be useful in rescue missions in rivers, maybe. Sellable to other countries too

Thank You for The content. I wonder if You could make videos about special forces submarines and Military submersibles vehicles.

You should have millions of subscribers. Excellent info young man. Coming from a boomer of over 20 years of service.

A purely battery powered sub might work well in specific areas. I wonder if they could recharge them underwater, or just have enough endurance to be kept in sub pens for like week long deployments. I'm also curious how costal sub designs would be different. Ducted prop to limit ground interference? Extra durable bottom designed for groundings? Different passive sonar designs?

@HISuttonCovertShores

2 жыл бұрын

Recharging underwater is a topic, mainly for UUVs. Is less likely with submarines any time soon though Coastal subs will, generally, have less sophisticated/powerful sonar, etc.

@woolnerjones8868

2 жыл бұрын

At current battery tech levels a small all-battery sub like this Chinese sub or the South Korean HDS-400/500 will have a littoral patrol endurance at 4kts of 20-24 days. By the mid-late 2030s this could increase to 30-40 days, with extended fast advance capability. Subsea charging is technically feasible but will require the charging locations to be defended.

@jebise1126

2 жыл бұрын

i believe there was talk of iran having those... or at least trying to build.

@Dana-cb7vk

2 жыл бұрын

Expendable, release and retract solar panels could do the recharging on the fly. Sure it exposes the sub (barely, if done right)- but is tactical in the sense it can extend the mission vs. port time. ;)

I'd love a brief explainer on the history of submarine battery technology and how it's changed (or not) over the years since uboats in WW2 (or WW1 even), then the Type 21, then more modern technologies which presumably use lead acid batteries or maybe silver-zinc batteries? I have very little knowledge on the subject. I just know they can produce hydrogen gas which is bad cause boat go boom💥 , and that crew have to take pH readings (and presumably correct the pH) and such.

@briananthony4044

2 жыл бұрын

Russia used silver zinc batteries on it's diesel electric submarines, the early Kilos I believe. While they had a high energy density, they had to be replaced every 2 years so an expensive option. Today they seemed to be used more in electric torpedoes. Earlier Li-on batteries used exotic materials and were subject to thermal problems. I believe the Li-on Phosphate chemistry is a lot safer, though not as energy dense. Cheaper EVs tend to use this chemistry, even the standard Tesla 3 built in China.

@greg5023

2 жыл бұрын

Three or four EMs (nuclear trained electricians mates) take temperature and specific gravity readings on each of the 128 cells during a battery charge. This is done hourly and it takes at least three hours to charge the battery. To take the temperature & specific gravity readings the EMs crawl in the 20 inches of space between the bakelite grid that is on top of the cells and the ceiling of the battery compartment. It is not comfortable. While the EMs are crawling around on top of the battery all the others who stood watch with them or participated in the scram drill that necessitated the battery charge are in the rack. The battery is charged following scram drills and otherwise, as needed. That's quite a few scrams & battery charges during workup for reactor safeguards exam and during the the exam. Sensors in the battery compartment continuously measure H2 gas. Should seawater mix with the battery's sulfuric acid then chlorine gas will result. While replacing a battery cell, one of my shipmates created a short and burned a chicken mcnugget sized portion out of the meaty part of his forearm.

@HISuttonCovertShores

2 жыл бұрын

I am probably not the best person to cover that, I see it from an analyst's perspective not an engineers. But basically lead-acid has won so far because of low cost (relative!!!), reliability, robustness to being recharged, and service life. Lithium-based techs promise to revolutionize things because their higher energy density translates into real operational differences. But safety is the main thing slowing their adoption down. We are on the cusp.

@nebfer

2 жыл бұрын

@@HISuttonCovertShores IIRC another thing slowing things down is that Lithium batteries are less dense than lead-acid, which can cause issues with stability when retrofitting existing ships with them, as now your removing potentially dozens to hundreds of tons from the ship.

@tbones55

2 жыл бұрын

You are correct, you don't know much.

An ex-navy guy i knew 50 years ago talked about how control of heat was a major consideration in conventional submarines. Heat came from electrical resistance and from compressing air.

Very detailed information~! I personally speculate that it is a new experimental diesel-electric submarine, and it may also be an unmanned submarine. But your forecast may be more prepared, which is very likely a submarine ready for export. Of course, no one can predict with 100% accuracy ;)

China may be building a drone cum manned submarine; with AI technologies used on the navigational, radar sensors and communication devices, while the manned tasks for ferrying special forces and/or weapon supplies, as well as recee missions.

Small subs are the future. Virtualy undetectable. Easier to build pretty much anywhere and in great quantities, which matters. Even Donitz thought so. Technology is getting better and better and soon we won't be calling them "coastal subs" because they will be able to do a LOT more.

Possible unmanned platform Blue tents could be concealing launchers or launching bays.. seems very sleek for a manned vessel.. doesn't seem that it would be able to deploy for long periods.

It appears to me you get more space efficiency having vertical torpedo tubes.horizontal are leftover from the the gen-1 sub design. Reload in port with pre-loaded shots…. Thoughts???

Very interesting and informative. Thank you. As a PLA watcher, I'd say covert special forces insertion and littoral combat.

14:40 an additional possible tasking might be something Taiwan-related? PLAN stand out for having a strong purpose for what would be ridiculously short range for any other combatant on the planet, with perhaps their most likely military adversary sort of 300km one way. Example: something that could keep Taiwanese military or merchants bottled up in port.

Your good at investigating. You decoded this one picture amazingly!

You are the very best, thank you for being out, standing in your field, where i can hear you!❤

Depending on how advanced this particular vessel is, we could end up having a smallish problem on our hands.

@woolnerjones8868

2 жыл бұрын

Submarine planners should assume that there will a significant small SSE submarine threat emerging from the late 2020s onwards. By the 2040s this will evolve into a significant medium-large SSE submarine threat, with Naval Group's all-electric battery-only SMX-31E concept SSE submarine providing some broad indication of likely performance (zero indiscretion mission, > 40 days at 8kts, 60 days at 6kts), with a sophisticated weapons mix and advanced sensor and combat systems. www.naval-group.com/en/naval-group-reveals-smx-31-e-its-2020-concept-ship-0 kzread.info/dash/bejne/fHmO25t6cdjYltY.html

@michaelmichaelagnew8503

Жыл бұрын

Its using propellers that right there tells us how unstealthily it is. Its not near as advance as it should be just based off of that.

Interesting video

@andrewthomson

2 жыл бұрын

They always are but there's definitely something about this one

IF THIS IS A UNDERWATER DRONE...

Last mile connectivity for special forces? Imagine an island target surrounded by these with special forces payload and after a careful satellite/ship based recon the commandos move in.

It mat be a single hulled Deisel Electric boat of a minimal size meant to operate in littoral waters to attack Western ships. They can lay in wait silently and if a Western ship comes within firing distance they can then spring into action. If they get attacked they may be lost with a minimal cost like a frigate might be sacrificed to protect the carrier.

Someone in the Navy who specialized in sound signatures said we have the sound signature of every sub in the water & can identify a nations sub and sub type from hundreds of miles. We perform Naval exercises to attract enemy subs that want our signatures then tail them from hundreds of miles to get theirs. The sound signature of Chinese subs we literally save the file as "Chinese Dumpster" as that's what it sounds like is being dragged through the water.

@theswagman1263

11 ай бұрын

knowing the Chinese they'll have copied the US listening tech and probably have done the same thing to identify all US subs. I think it's unwise for either side to assume they have a huge advantage over the other

Thank you - very interesting following through how you form your assessment.

Very good presentation. Can you do a video on single vs. double hulled submarines.

I Just watched a couple of videos on the Typhoon class Russian era subs, and the sub in your video TOTALLY fits it's profile. Large/long conning tower, flat/wide top profile and massive in size. if you do an actual comparison between it and the shoreline, you can see how big it actually is (not using pixels).

@deeacosta2734

10 ай бұрын

What? These are river subs. Of these, the new boat appears to be similar to both the MS-200 midget submarine and S600 coastal submarine. Our estimate is that it is closer to the latter, although likely shorter.

MS paint best thing ever

The USA had nuclear powered subs and carriers (the latter of which China still doesn't have) before China even conducted its first nuclear bomb test. The Pentagon is in the business of over-hyping both Russia & China; it keeps the annual defense budget huge.

It's a new class of sub to transport fentanyl to Mexico. The"pagoda class" subs feature the distinctive scaffold and tarp conning towers and screen doors for crew comfort.

The Chinese aren't known for their openness about matters military so I find myself asking, why would anyone sail a submarine down a river in broad daylight for every man and his dog to see? Have any of their other submarines been filmed in this way ? One might think that this was seen because it was meant to be seen, for any number of reasons.

@thunderboltlightning6010

2 жыл бұрын

Most of their SSKs were first reported like this. Nothing special about it. It’s just you can’t really hide subs for long. Someone is going to see it eventually, especially when being built near downtown of a big city.

@HISuttonCovertShores

2 жыл бұрын

This. China is actually the only country which can hide new submarines 'in plain sight' as well as this. DPRK etc maybe but different scenario. Re the Yuan Class, which I think that you are referencing, that's one which we don't know the *real* designations of, except the Type-039A. We have a -B, -C and maybe a -D variant but which counts as which is really speculation. China is in no hurry to help Western observers learn about their subs.

@theSpicyHam

2 жыл бұрын

wasn't an choice a maybe*, perhaps

A video about china and that too so unbiased and factual! Love ur channel man! Love from china

@Dana-cb7vk

2 жыл бұрын

I hope Belt n Road fails, and that the world sees China for the threat it is. May your Army remain a paper dragon, and the technologies you have stolen be incomplete, and fail where they matter most.

It's probably one of the API Subs. As they as other internationals build similar type subs and are designed for coastal protection. They're slow, but can be fast when needed for short bursts as they are usually battery driven for air driven propulsion with electrical generator backup. This makes them invisible and as far as I know undetectable. But they are also not meant for open ocean defense.

@InsufficientGravitas

11 ай бұрын

Given how large chinas coastline is, and its number of navigable rivers that makes a good deal of sense.

Dear Mr. Hutton; please don’t apologize 🎉for “unscripted, or poor microphone, etc.” Your content is Superlative ! I have long been a fan of submarine technology, and having found your content, I am over the moon! I have been binge watching for many hours now, neglecting things I really should do, like dishes! Thank You so very much! Could you please do an (as in-depth as possible) story on the technology of the H.L.Hunley of the United States civil war. As a Civil War re-enactor, my late wife and I were extremely privileged to attend the April 2004 Formal Confederate Funeral and interment of the crew. I have read several times that the H.L. Hunley was FAR More complex than was previously thought and I would Love to hear your take on this early bit of technological kit! Best Regards from an old fellow living in Yankee territory of Pennsylvania, David. Oh, and whatever you might have or can find about the yankee submarine of the same era, the USS. Alligator. I can find relatively little about that lost vessel. Again, Many Thanks!!!

@peterblake4837

7 ай бұрын

It's Dr Hutton. He's earned it So give him his due.

Is it possible to use blow out panels like on a tank to protect a submarine from lithium battery fire? I assume this would require a double hull design.

@HISuttonCovertShores

2 жыл бұрын

I don't think it's an approach which is being considered. Wouldn't flooding part of your sub just further add to the problems? There is a thing with nuclear submarines where they flood the bottom of the reactor compartment in some emergency scenarios, to act as a heat sink.

@woolnerjones8868

2 жыл бұрын

Japan has now built and commissioned two large naval submarines fitted with lithium-ion batteries (JS Oryu, JS Toryu) and will shortly commission a third (JS Taegei). There is no indication to date that they have experienced any significant issues with these new main battery systems either during the acceptance trials before commissioning or in service. There has been zero delays in construction of these new subs, which suggests no major changes have been needed for the lithium-ion battery systems following acceptance trials.

China submarine is unlike anything in the west! It is unable to dive and the hull is not water-proof... Sounds like china 😂

I love when people are great at what they do, regardless of your segment, if you really know what you are talking about that's impressive. you are great!

This is a very good analysis of this Chinese submarine. Thank you for your hard work!

If I was a chinese admiral, I would leak an image like this, but mess with the water lines to mess with analyst.