This is encouraging May God bless all of you and those who listen to this

Great podcast; especially appreciated how the hosts treat their guests. Thank you!

This is an incredibly interesting podcast!

Excellent episode!! Thanks!

Super cool. Thank you.

Lives this!

That was enjoyable; thanks!

Chestertonian Calvinism? with Douglas Wilson: The Theology Pugcast Episode 250 1. Doug Wilson at 9:51 - 10:10: "One time he [Chesterton] took a shot at Oscar Wilde who was ... also that kind of character [an artsy bohemian type] but for Oscar Wilde, Chesteron said something 'no can repay God for the glimpse of a sunset. We can pay for it by not being Oscar Wilde'." Response: If I'm not mistaken, that quote is from the GKC book Heretics published in 1905, five years after Oscar Wilde's death in 1900 when Chesterton was still an Anglican. But didn't GKC unintentionally write, not a paradox, but an eventual irony when: "During his time in prison he [Wilde] was also known to have devoured the writing of St Augustine, Dante, and Cardinal Newman. When he left prison in 1897 in frail health, Wilde exiled himself to Paris and continued to engage in the sort of behaviour that the Vatican would certainly have frowned upon. But just before he died three years later a Catholic priest - Father Cuthbert Dunne - baptised him into the Catholic Church." [from the UK Independent article 'The Vatican wakes up to the wisdom of Oscar Wilde' by Jeremy Taylor, Religios Affairs Correspondent, Friday 17 July 2009 00:00] Years later in 1920, Chesterton would pay for his earlier remark of not being Oscar Wilde by becoming like Oscar Wilde and converting to Catholicism.

Chestertonian Calvinism? with Douglas Wilson: The Theology Pugcast Episode 250 4. Doug Wilson speaking: A. At 31:45 - 32:26: "One time when I read Anselm's [Archbishop of Canterbury, 1033/4-1109 A.D.] Cur Deos Homo? [in English = Why God Became A Man], ... a great illustration of this, a marvelous masterpiece, but then in the edition I had, it had a collection of Anselm's prayers in the back. So I was reading Cur Deos Homo? and then I was reading his prayers. This was clearly a man who loved, loved the Lord. He was clearly a brother, clearly got it. You know, I'm going to enjoy meeting him in glory, and then I got to the prayers to Mary. I thought, man, man, what are you doing?" B. At 41:44 - 42:38: "Chaucer was prior to the Reformation, but I don't mind laying some sort of claim on him, because Chaucer was sponsored by, his patron was John of Gaunt. And John of Gaunt had another person that he was a patron for, a man named John Wycliff. OK? So Chaucer and Wycliff are swimming in the same environment. And if you look at the Canterbury Tales, the one decent cleric in there, The Parson's Tale, when he quotes scripture, he quotes scripture in English. Right? What? What? So I would say that just as Wycliff is the morning star of the Reformation, I would want to claim Chaucer as the morning star of Protestant letters." Response: A. Would Doug Wilson consider Chaucer's 'A.B.C. A prayer to Our Lady' as part of 'the morning star of Protestant letters?' This is "a remarkable English poem written in the 14th century in honour of the Blessed Virgin Mary ... Each of the 23 eight-line stanzas begins with a successive letter of the alphabet (but excluding the later letters J, U and W). The metre is iambic pentameter and the rhyming scheme is a-b-a-b-c-d-c-d." Incipit carmen secundum ordinem litterarum alphabeti. (Here) beginneth a song according to the order of the letters of the alphabet [1st of 23 stanzas] 'Almighty and al merciable queene, To whom that al this world fleeth for socour To have relees of sinne, of sorwe, and teene, Glorious virgine, of alle floures flour, To thee I flee, confounded in errour. Help and releeve, thou mighti debonayre, Have mercy on my perilous langour. Venquisshed me hath my cruel adversaire.' [Quoting from the bloorbook blogspot]' B. Or would Doug Wilson say to Chaucer as he would to Anselm, "man, man, what are you doing"?

Sir to God be the glory alone

I knew something was off when GK Chesterton called George Bernard Shaw a Calvinist, and Shaw agreed. I knew then that neither Chesterton nor Shaw was talking about the kind of Calvinism that Calvin or I would have consented to. At least I think it was Shaw, maybe it was HG Wells, but either way, my point is still moot, as it were.

Every time pastor Wiley spoke I saw Dick Cavett's face 😂

Chestertonian Calvinism? with Douglas Wilson: The Theology Pugcast Episode 250 3. Doug Wilson at 22:47 - 23:23: "Probably one of the best things you'll ever read from C.S. Lewis is, in his magnum opus, which is 'English Literature in the 16th Century.' The first couple of chapters are sort of a history, a literary history of ... Reformation era and ... there are a number of striking things that Lewis says about the early Protestants there. Early Protestantism was saying farewell to all motive-scratching, you know, the internal introspection, that sort of thing." Response: It is pure speculation, but in light of what has been revealed post-humously about C.S. Lewis in His Letters To Malcolm, Chiefly On Prayer, published in 1964 one year after his death, i.e., specifically that he prayed for the dead and believed in purgatory, might he have revised his 'magnum opus' in any way?: "Of course I pray for the dead. The action is so spontaneous, so all but inevitable, that only the most compulsive theological case against it would deter me. And I hardly know how the rest of my prayers would survive if those for the dead were forbidden. At our age the majority of those we love best are dead. What sort of intercourse with God could I have if what I love best were unmentionable to Him? . . ." "I believe in purgatory. Mind you, the Reformers had good reasons for throwing doubt on “the Romish doctrine concerning Purgatory” as that Romish doctrine had then become. . . ." "The right view returns magnificently in Newman’s [John Henry] Dream [Of Gerontius]. There, if I remember it rightly, the saved soul, at the very foot of the throne, begs to be taken away and cleansed. It cannot bear for a moment longer 'With its darkness to affront that light.” Religion has reclaimed Purgatory.'" "Our souls demand Purgatory, don’t they? Would it not break the heart if God said to us, 'It is true, my son, that your breath smells and your rags drip with mud and slime, but we are charitable here and no one will upbraid you with these things, nor draw away from you. Enter into the joy'? Should we not reply, 'With submission, sir, and if there is no objection, I’d rather be cleaned first.' 'It may hurt, you know' - 'Even so, sir.'" "I assume that the process of purification will normally involve suffering. Partly from tradition; partly because most real good that has been done me in this life has involved it. . . ." "My favourite image on this matter comes from the dentist’s chair. I hope that when the tooth of life is drawn and I am 'coming round,' a voice will say, 'Rinse your mouth out with this.' This will be Purgatory. The rinsing may take longer than I can now imagine. The taste of this may be more fiery and astringent than my present sensibility could endure." [Letters to Malcolm: Chiefly on Prayer, New York: Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, 1964, 107-109] Or was C.S. Lewis engaged in what Doug Wilson calls 'motive scratching', i.e., 'internal introspection' at the end of his life in the above quotes?

Chestertonian Calvinism? with Douglas Wilson: The Theology Pugcast Episode 250 5. Underscoring the challenge of Chestertonian Calvinism, there is the issue of G.K. Chesterton regularly attending Catholic Mass after his conversion. As well, from the National Catholic Reporter [UK] article 'On this day: Requiem for a Heavyweight' by Gerelyn Hollingsworth, June 27, 2011: "On this day, 75 years ago, a Solemn Requiem Mass was sung at Westminster Cathedral for the repose of the soul of Gilbert Keith Chesterton." Of this form of worship, John Calvin wrote the following: "OF THE POPISH MASS. HOW IT NOT ONLY PROFANES, BUT ANNIHILATES THE LORD’S SUPPER: "By these and similar inventions, Satan has attempted to adulterate and envelop the sacred Supper of Christ as with thick darkness, that its purity might not be preserved in the Church. But the head of this horrid abomination was, when he raised a sign by which it was not only obscured and perverted, but altogether obliterated and abolished, vanished away and disappeared from the memory of man-namely, when, with most pestilential error, he blinded almost the whole world into the belief that the Mass was a sacrifice and oblation for obtaining the remission of sins ... But when it shall have been most clearly proved by the word of God, that THIS MASS, however glossed and splendid, OFFERS THE GREATEST INSULT TO CHRIST, suppresses and buries his cross, consigns his death to oblivion, takes away the benefit which it was designed to convey, enervates and dissipates the sacrament, by which the remembrance of his death was retained, will its roots be so deep that this most powerful axe, the word of God, will not cut it down and destroy it? Will any semblance be so specious that this light will not expose the lurking evil?" [John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, Book III, Chapter 18, No. 1, Beveridge translation, page 866; ntslibrary website, pdf 874 of 944]

@estebanpayan7296

9 ай бұрын

Thank you so much for all you wrote and all the references.

@annakimborahpa

9 ай бұрын

You're welcome and God bless you and yours.

@estebanpayan7296

9 ай бұрын

Scratch a Calvinist doctrine, and beneath the surface you will find a prudish fear of the sensual life; a horror of ornamentation, fashion-both ecclesiastical and secular-objets d’art, architectural refinement, grape and grain, in other words, some of those very things that make life pleasurable. (A quote from Robert Fay.)

@annakimborahpa

9 ай бұрын

1. I'm glad you (Fay) said doctrine and not Calvinists. The original followers of John Calvin's teachings like the French Huguenots and the English Puritans were iconoclasts who were bent on destroying sacred art and objects. 2. In my experience, many Calvinists today are not familiar with John Calvin's writings, but follow the TULIP acrostic teaching tool developed by 20th century Reformed historian Loraine Boettner that greatly simplified Calvin's teachings. 3. These modern day Calvinists enjoy the pleasurable things in life you mentioned in moderation, while believing (A) in their divine election that has been predetermined by an eternal and irrevocable decree by God before time began, but also (B) that they cooperate in the process with their free will. 4. This combination of divine determinism and individual free will is referred to as compatibilism, but to the outsider like me it looks like a violation of the principle of non-contradiction. 5. For a sympathetic understanding of Calvinism from someone who once embraced it, I recommend Leighton Flowers' Soteriology 101 youtube videos. He's returned to becoming a traditional Baptist whose theology is much more in sync with the mainstream Christian viewpoint of predestination common to the majority of Protestants, Catholicism and the Eastern/Oriental Orthodox Churches. 6. Also, the 20th century historian Will Durant's chapter on Calvin from his multi-volume series The Story of Civilization is available on youtube under the title Durant---Calvin. After enumerating John Calvin's many accomplishments, Durant gives his final judgment on Calvin with these words: "... but we shall always find it hard to love the man who darkened the human soul with the most absurd and blasphemous conception of God in all the long and honored history of nonsense." The last five minutes of this audio recording gives a concise summary of Calvin, Calvinism and its effect on history, particularly in America.

@estebanpayan7296

9 ай бұрын

@@annakimborahpa Once again, great references. I’m Roman Catholic now. However, I came from Calvary Chapel, basically light weight reformed Baptist. While I was discerning the church, I did a deep dive into reformation history and what I found was shocking. I went to primary resources such as Westminster Theological seminary. I ran to Rome.

First time here, cool you got Steve Carell 😂

Chestertonian Calvinism? with Douglas Wilson: The Theology Pugcast Episode 250 2. C.R. Wiley 18:08-32: "When I think about ... his [Chesterton's] background in the arts, it informs his writing. You've seen, I know, his caricatures and his doodles, ... there's this one, I can't remember where it's found, but he's describing laying on a bed and imagining painting on the ceiling with a long brush." Response: Regarding 'Chestertonian Calvinism' and artistic imagery, compare and contrast the following two passages, one by John Calvin and one concerning G.K. Chesterton: A. John Calvin, Sermons on Deuteronomy (Edinburgh: Banner of Truth Trust, repr. in 1987), 138a51-55 and 138b3-48): "God has forbidden two things [ cf. Exodus 20:4-5]. First, the making of any picture of Him…. The other is, that no image may be worshipped…." "The setting up of images in churches, is a defiling . . . By and by, folk go and kneel down to it. . . . The Papists . . . paint and portray ‘Jesus Christ’ - Who (as we know) is not only man but also God manifested in the flesh. He is God’s eternal Son, in Whom the fullness of the Godhead dwells - yes, even substantially . . . Should we have portraitures and images, whereby only the flesh may be represented? Is it not a wiping away of that which is chiefest in our Lord Jesus Christ - that is, to wit, of His Divine Majesty? Yes!" "And therefore, whensoever a crucifix stands moping and mowing in the church - it is all one as if the Devil had defaced the Son of God. You see, then, that the Papists are destitute of all excuse . . . They abuse their puppets and pictures, after that fashion." [Heidelblog website: Calvin Against Images Of Christ by R. Scott Clark on April 7, 2014] B. From the National Catholic Register article 'G.K. Chesterton Became Catholic 100 Years Ago, Drawn in by Jerusalem and Our Lady' by K.V. Turley, March 8 2022: "Yet, whatever happened during the Holy Land pilgrimage of 1920, and the subsequent journey back to England, it changed everything. On arrival in Brindisi, Sermarini [Marco Sermarini, president of the Italian Chesterton Society] continues, the Chestertons were unable to find a hotel room, and so retreated to a room in a private house. In the room they were given stood a statue of the Madonna. He feels it was there, 'right here in Italy, right in front of this sea of ours, under the eyes of the Virgin Mary,' that the long conversion of G.K. Chesterton ended. 'The Virgin Mary always played a great role in Chesterton’s life,' Sermarini concluded." "When, finally, in May 1927, a Catholic church was blessed and opened at Beaconsfield, the Chestertons contributed one notable addition to it, namely, a statue of Our Lady."

@estebanpayan7296

9 ай бұрын

This is absolutely what I was thinking! The reformed are anti-art and culture. They are anti-joy. What is this Wilson fellow talking about?

How white does your beard need to be for you to be canonized in the Reformed world?

What's next? Athanasian arianism or amish papalism…

I've had to defend CS Lewis against the charge of being a heretic. There are several in the Reformed camp who think perfection of doctrinal understanding is the fruit of salvation.

@andriesquinton1555

10 ай бұрын

I love Doug, but Chesterton should not be considered a Christian otherwise we should consider many people Christians who plainly are not, e.g. Ravi Zacharias

The thumbnail looks like a lineup of pokemon stages

🚩

Allegory is king of dialog!!! Prove me wrong.

👑🇮🇱Genesis 12:3 is expressed through the deeds 💙 shown in Matthew 25:31-46 🇮🇱👑

If anyone preaches to you another gospel, let him be anathema (unless you think he might not actually believe the false gospel he preaches)

@chrismatthews1762

9 ай бұрын

You dont have to give up the gospel to appreciate some of the things an unregenerate man says

We’ll keep Chesterton, but happily give you Bergoglio.

@goyonman9655

9 ай бұрын

They are not yours to keep or give Plus POPE Francis is literally the vicar of christ Chesterton isnt

Which Westminster catechism question encourages white beards among the elect? ;)

@GeluTimoficiuc

7 ай бұрын

I think white elect beards eventually get their humans

I didn't know George Clooney was a pastor...

@MrJeffreyromain

Ай бұрын

He is not. He is an actor.

"Are you a Calvinist who has a weakness for G. K. Chesterton? Join the club! What attracts readers to Chesterton is the combination of artful prose, joyous gratitude, and serious attention to perennial truths." No. If you're a Calvinist, then you think and feel whatever God determined you to think and feel. You are not attracted to anything, and, in fact, there is no such thing as attraction. Being attracted to something implies agency. It implies you have the capacity to formulate opinions. Calvinists have no agency. Everything you say, do, think, or feel was predetermined for you before you were born. Why do Calvinists have such a hard time being consistent? I have yet to see a Calvinist who doesn't thunder on about God's sovereignty when it suits them, but then live their lives according to free will. You need free will in order to like or dislike an author. You Calvinists do not have free will.

Calvin. The guy who had Christians burnt at the stake.

@Pseudo_Boethius

9 ай бұрын

Things have gone downhill rapidly ever since we gave up that practice.

This isn’t arrogant? GK Chesterton just didn’t understand Calvinism and that’s why he rejected it? Sorry.. that’s a very bold statement.

I wrote a book 6 years ago (when I was 26) that I was hoping would be The Chronicles of Naria for the 21st century, but it was for maturer audiences, satirical, taking Jordan Peterson's line of thinking to task, and written as though it was the Bible of an alternate universe. Even though I was able to capture CS Lewis' prose and thinking style (when I wanted to, at least), my youthful angst to want to challenge the average Christian's (and skeptics') comfort zone made it so I was a bit of a troll at times (and hypersensitive to possible backlash). While I at times would come up with a statement so "winsom" that Gospel Coalition would feel tempted to worship it, I could also say something so provocative that Doug Wilson would probably refrain from saying it during No Quarter November. I also wrote it with the angst of having a deadline as I was taking care of my dad and figured that if I didn't get the book finished before he died I never would. I'm still mostly proud of it, but would take 10% off my punches if I had to do it over again. "The Four Pillars of the Earth: The Patriarchs, the Philosophers, the Prophets, and the Patriot" if anyone is curious.

@ZephaniahL

10 ай бұрын

publisher please?

@michaelstarling6361

10 ай бұрын

@@ZephaniahL Xulon Press

That guy on the far left is no way a Calvinist. His beard is simply not long enough.

🧔🧔🧔🧔

This sounds more like you are coaching Protestants so they don’t become Catholics after reading Chesterton.

@jessebryant9233

10 ай бұрын

There are no good reasons to embrace Catholicism over Christianity...

@22grena

10 ай бұрын

@@jessebryant9233 Catholicism is the Church founded by Christ and his Apostles. WE created the Bible you misinterpret. Two good reasons I would say. As St Ignatius of Antioch said ''Wherever the bishop appears, there let the people be; as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful to baptize or give communion without the consent of the bishop. On the other hand, whatever has his approval is pleasing to God. Thus, whatever is done will be safe and valid'' - Letter to the Smyrnaeans 8. Because we are Christians we accept you as brothers and sisters in Christ but Christians who do not yet have the fullness of the truth. BTW did you know that Calvin accepted the primacy of the Roman Church in early Christian history: “I deny not that the early Christians uniformly give high honour to the Roman Church, and speak of it with reverence. . . . [it] adhered more firmly to the doctrine once delivered, . . .” (IV, 6:16)

@user-ju7cj8lv7q

10 ай бұрын

and?

@thundergrace

10 ай бұрын

🤣😂😅😂🤣exactly......

@jessebryant9233

10 ай бұрын

@@bwmwm False.

I love the pugsters, but I’m giving a thumbs down on this episode. I’m Roman Catholic precisely because reformed theology is joyless. It produced zero in terms of art and culture. The modern reformed Christian looks the Roman Catholics for the very beauty their founders found idolatrous.

@GeluTimoficiuc

7 ай бұрын

sad to see a fan of such podcast claim such grand position, of having surveyed the whole history and found nothing in terms of arts and culture from those joyless protestants. Meanwhile the whole western civilization wonders...

Look at the court of Calvinist kabbalahlist whom pervert the gospel, corrupt faith, and blastpheme the Lord and Savior of the World Jesus Christ. How dare they high jack Chesterton who as a Roman Catholic would have absolutely demolished them men who do the Devil's work, deny the Word of God.

This is an incredibly dull misinterpretation of Chesterton. Calvinists exhibit a strange, insecure need to claim any and every profound Christian writers and thinkers for themselves. In reality, most Christians throughout all history have been quite averse to the notion of theological determinism.

@doctor1alex

10 ай бұрын

Well here's the problem - historical "Calvinism" is not theological determinism. Chesterton misrepresented Calvinism as such, as do many. What would be a fair statement is to say that historical Calvinism has emphasised the truth of the doctrine that God "works all things according to the counsel of His will" (Ephesians 1:11). I speak as one not advocating for any of the men in this video or the video itself. And I'm saying historical Calvinism in order to distance from the popular "Calvinism" of today which is about five points of soteriology.

@oracleoftroy

10 ай бұрын

​@@doctor1alex"Theological determinism" needs to be defined, otherwise everything you say is right on. "God created the heavens and the earth" is theological determinism, over an indeterministic creation like: "God rolled the dice and got lucky, and a new universe randomly (indeterminately) popped into existence." All Christians, even before Calvin or Augustine, are some flavor of determinist if they think God can act with an intended outcome and actually achieve that outcome rather than just being a slave to whatever random event happens to him. But too many modern Christians don't even know basic terms anymore and think that "determinism" is some sort of fatalistic hyper determinism, and everything else is non-determinism. To that definition, yes you are absolutely correct that Calvinists are not "determinists" as the neo-Pelagians and Open Theists and the unfortunate believers swirling in their circles use the word.

@duncandonitz4874

10 ай бұрын

In what sense are they "claiming" Chesterton? The very first thing they note is Chesterton's Catholicism and hostility to Calvinism.

@estebanpayan7296

9 ай бұрын

The reformed steal because they have no art or beauty of their own.

I think this conversation doesn’t have enough white guys with white beards.

5:52 The kind of Calvinism I want to represent is no Calvinism.

@jessebryant9233

10 ай бұрын

Yeah, I'm always going... There's a difference between having sovereignty over creation and dictating every action. And any time a Calvinist can't answer questions, well, it's just what the Bible teaches and it's a mystery, and you need to believe it no matter how much it makes you scratch your head. Drives me nuts.

@TheRomans9Guy

10 ай бұрын

@@jessebryant9233 Drives me nuts too. I don’t see any unsolved mysteries related to Calvinism, they’re all solved and it turns out Calvinism is just false. A made up systematic by people who have very poor reading comprehension, masquerading as intellectuals. “God is sovereign!” Sure he is. He’s even more sovereign than you’re willing to admit. In fact, God is so sovereign he made mankind with the ability to make his own libertarian free will choices. They’d rather hold on to a belief system that teaches God predestined some people to eternal life, than give up their idol worshipping of MacArthur et. al.

@jaked8537

10 ай бұрын

@@jessebryant9233 A creator who is omniscient, sovereign, and all powerful necessarily dictates every action that results from His acts of creation. Any assertion to the contrary invalidates said creator's omniscience (he didn't know what would happen?) or sovereignty (he knew but had no control). Man's "libertarian free will" is an avoidant way of saying "man's thoughts and actions are beyond God's knowledge and sovereignty." Either God knows the future, or he doesn't. If he knows the future, then he knew it at creation, and we are in a deterministic creation based on His knowledge and decretive will. If not, then just admit you are an open theist so we can debate on those grounds. If you attempt to describe a scenario where God had knowledge of all future events that flowed out of his own will and sovereignty, yet he created humans who still have a creaturely will (a sense of agency and a true culpability for their actions), then ironically you are defending Calvinism. Drives me nuts.

@bobjubeck

10 ай бұрын

Kinda like Creation ex nihilo or the Triune God?@@jessebryant9233

@bobjubeck

10 ай бұрын

Are we reading the same Bible?@@TheRomans9Guy