Thanks for doing my retirement catamaran purchase planning for me. You are narrowing down my choices.

Regarding beaching or running aground with a daggerboard raised. Catana's have a type of mini skeg that supports the shaft drive and protects the rudder and allows it to be beached. Other brands may have something similar. Also the daggerboard is made to break in case of severe impact to protect the hull and casing. Much cheaper to replace the daggerboard, which you can't do with a catamaran with keels.

As the owner of a 40' cat with dagger boards, I would not have it any other way. We sail 10-15 degs higher than fixed keel boats--we did this weekend racing against a Seawind 1250 and a 13m FP Orana. We came from behind and sailed well above them and were doing 3-4 knots more--this was in 10-12 knots of wind. We sail as high if not higher than any of the good monos around. This is why boards make a boat a delight to sail--especially up wind. Yes there is a significant safety factor in being able to get away from weather systems and sail off a lee shore--this is a significant issue Weight has nothing to do with daggerboards/keels. This depends on the waterline/beam length ratio--a lower ratio the more weight and of course the slower the boat. Yes, keep the boards down so the engines and rudders are protected. We built furniture and storage around the cases--them taking up room is a totally insignificant issue. Yes Boards are more expensive, that's why the charter boats don't have them No stuff does not grow in the cases--10 years on the water and there has been no problem with 'critters'. It's way faster to clean the case (without removing the boards) than it is to antifoul two keels Yes there is some more know how in how to sail with them but it's not difficult Beaching is just fine with boards, I beach mine regularly If your rudders are not strong enough to handle boards being in the wrong position, you have a real problem with your rudders--we have never noticed them loading up significantly and when cruising we don't pay them a lot of attention and the autopilot is usually doing all the steering. We are cruisers an are not constantly tweaking, we just like sailing well. If you like sailing you'll be bored to tears with keels and you'll have to use your engine a whole lot more--from my perspective, this takes a lot of the fun away from why we're out there.

@jandradventures

7 жыл бұрын

Hey Philip, thanks for the comment and perspective. Interesting to hear critters don't grow in the cases for you. Just curious, do you think this is because you take better than average care of it? Or do you think that folks who do have problems with growth in the cases might be taking less that average care of them? Also, when you beach, do you end up with weight on the rudders? Or is the natural slope of the beach enough to keep them safe? Or something else?

@pmorph

7 жыл бұрын

We only pull the boat out of the water once every 16-18 months--in fact it's happening this weekend. The cases were extremely well built and are a snug fit around the boards where they exit the hull so there is very little space for anything to grow--also we push antifoul paint as far up there as we can with a brush. Finally the boards are antifouled for the first 400mm so that may put things off as well. The other safety factor is that each board has a sacrificial end that is designed to break off if we hit anything hard. When beaching yes the boat sits on the rudders but they are built to manage this and there is no issue. This allows me to service the engines and clean the waterline--however we can't antifoul the hulls as they sit too much on the sand. I carefully inspect the area for rocks etc before I put the boat there and make sure that waves can't hit the boat. Certainly, in Australia, there are stories of keels having structural issues when they are put on the slip, one keel broke clean off and others have struggled to hold the weight of the boat, often due to them not being aligned with bulkheads etc--a friend of mine used to own a slip way that specialised in cats and he has horror stories.

@turoalindada5923

3 жыл бұрын

Hi Phil, I enjoyed this video and appreciate your real-life feedback. I am researching for the kind of Catamaran to build and another video by Tim Weston who built Tokyo Express educated me on the merits of Daggerboard design. Wondering if you have seen Tim’s videos. I would like to be able to communicate with you directly if that is fine. Kindly tell me how I can do that directly. Would want to be cruising in 4 years when I hit 60. Thank you

In some ways this topic can be related to your primary motivation for purchasing a cat. If the reason was because they go fast, then you likely want dagger boards, any other reason, mini keels are probably the way to go. There is also the glass half full/empty argument: A friend of mine thinks dagger boards are something else to worry about, whereas I think of them as something else to play with.

As my grandpa said "if we all liked the same thing, I'd have had to join a line to date grandma." Make your mind up and learn to love what you're committed to!

Excellent presentation ! Easy for beginners to understand and very well organized. Good job. I would choose daggerboards for the safety of sailing near a lee shore and the increased speed.

Ryan and Jessica, you're doing a great job researching the mono-hull and multi-hull market, and going deep into specific elements, such as daggerboards. We're saving hard for a boat, too (no mean feat), so your vlogs are proving very useful. We're following you guys closely, and hope to cross routes someday!

@Jessica and Ryan Adventures I find that 6 years later some catamaran builders answered all your cons with heavily constructed dabberboard boxes, reinforce hulls, reinforced removable kick up rudders ect. You probably get some video traction with an update to this video! This video here was thoroughly explained. Thank you!

I love all the research you guys do on things like this. I'm also in that shopping/planning/dreaming of buying a catamaran stage. Love your videos.

Watched your video two times more and have read ALL the comments again! Surprised you have not inquired of my comments on the advancement on SCABBOARDS! After centuries of just THREE choices: keels , daggerboards & centerboards it's about time that we finally have a technical improvement for a lateral resistant underwater appendage SCABBOARDS offer superb advantage of Blade/ foil design. They maintain their cross-section regardless of their draft unlike centerboards or fixed keels. Also, unlike dagger board SCABBOARDS can automatically retreat upon contact with a submerged object, reef or beach. The issue with keels and daggerboards is that having an impact can significantly Damage not only by breaching the hull causing sinking but exert violent slaming of the standing rig in forward rotation. SCABBOARDS are different than either daggerboards or keels in that they are designed to automatically withdraw thus not needing crew intervention to respond to impending unseen hazard, such as on autopilot and more cruising. SCABBOARDS utilize a trunk much like a dagger board ( only nominally larger) and do not require addition of a crash box. Neither do SCABBOARDS have to be designed to shear off upon impact for safety ( requiring spares on board). SABBOARDS do not have to be raised above deck and yet can be serviced on deck unlike centerboards which are mounted under the waterline in a LARGE open slot ( induced drag). Likewise, as a centerboard rotated on it's nominal bearing point/pin and as it does so it loses any relationship of a proper foil shape as well as moving center of effort SCABBOARDS do not rotate aft, rather they lift vertically as struck. SCABBOARDS are a 4th generation of appendage unlike any other variant of existing sailboat design. I would love to have an opportunity to discuss this variant, I can be reached at Njsea7@gmail.com

Thanks Ryan, I don't know anything about sailing. But watching your videos I've learned a lot. I think that now, I would choose the fixed keel over dagger boards. And I am and have been a big fan of Cat's. Thanks and happy and safe sailing.

This was excellent, excellent, excellent. You cleared up a lot of my questions regarding daggerboards vs. fixed keels on cats. Obviously, I intend to buy a cat too, but never was quite clear on all the differences. You do a fabulous job at researching these things and it's very, very helpful. Regarding the t-shirts, I received mine and I LOVE it! So soft and it fits well. Thanks again....Peace & fair winds

@jandradventures

7 жыл бұрын

Glad you liked the video and the shirt! Thanks so much for your support, it certainly helps! :)

@adss70

5 жыл бұрын

Kia E. Gardner which of the two options are you leaning toward to?

Thank you so much for the excellent information. From knowing nothing I am now feeling confident about the differences.

If the daggerboards are down at mooring, doesn't this help prevent rocking of the vessel?

Great job, clear and concise Cheers.

Outstanding fair unbiased comparison. I learned stuff. Thanks!

Nice comparison. I like you pos an cons. Overall clear message. Very useful Some remarks about the cons: - Grounding is a matter of navigation for sure at high speed. - All systems that you are using wrongly will have disadvantages. Again nicely done.

Very much appreciate all your research on topic: Catamarans. Thank you guys!

That was great guys I was leaning towards fixed keels (you confirmed it for me) as I knew the fixed keels protected your engines and rudders a little more and for us living space is important. I have also liked the way you can 'carefully' sit the boat on the sand which is good for careening and nice to let the family off easily. I plan on sailing between jobs throughout the pacific and the right cat is essential for us. Well done guys thank you awesome job.

I like the very correct way that you say, "when" you ground, and not "if" you ground. Although I sail a monohull, I have gotten out of trouble a couple of times by immediately going into reverse - you can't really do that if your propeller and rudder is already buried in mud/sand.

@jandradventures

7 жыл бұрын

Ah good point! Didn't even think about that. Thanks for sharing!

@rustie4242

7 жыл бұрын

When we are sailing shallow waters we keep the boards down a foot deeper than the rudders, then if we hit the bottom and stop we just lift them a bit and back off, it's pretty easy...

1st time finding your channel. Good discussion especially for someone learning like me. Ruby Rose helps showing different catamarans. Your talk here shows me that keels are probably better for a long-term live aboard.

If I could pick a teacher/professor for my kids... Someone like Ryan!!! Great comparison. Very complete. Useful info. Love the precision and the wide approach coming from his software developer/engineer background.

Great info and discussion, thanks for doing the research on this very important topic for a prospective buyers...really getting a lot of knowledge from your videos...

This is a really well done vid, nicely organized and you offer a lot of good information.

Hi Ryan, there is also a 3rd option which does not use neither one and is imo a very good compromise. Like a Warren design or the SMG50 plus. My SMG50 plus sails quickly and very well upwind, has a low draft, a skeg and “grounding” protection bar designed to protect props and rudder from damage.

Thank you for the discussion. Really appreciate the education.

Thanks Ryan. Another excellent video!!! ! am also wondering which cat to buy and your research is extremely helpful. In fact your videos provide more useful and practical information than most other sources.

I was curious what daggarboards were. Solid explanation. Subscribed. Thank you. Also, where did you obtain that Hawaiian chart behind you?

If you ever end up on a lea shore in a seaway or trying to get to windward in a heavy sea you will want all the pointing ability you can get. Very good informative video, thanks.

Nice compilation of ideas, thanks man. I've been looking and building a Richard Woods designs and most of the daggerboard boxes on the boats I'm looking at are placed between the bridgedeck and the hulls instead of thru-hull, so no extra danger of holing the hull in a grounding. That and his bridgedeck cabin/cuddy idea are two of the big things drawing me to his designs. For me there's no choice, daggerboards all the way. It's the extra configurations for storm tactics and being able to point higher, both from a safety standpoint and comfort. I feel like if I'm already building the boat, fitting LAR keels would be handy capping all my work. That's amazing that boards add so much cost. It's considered one of the more tedious tasks in a home build, but $30k? sheesh (that's about what I plan on spending to build), i'll save it for kitty, thanks. :P Keep up the videos, fun watching someone else research this crazy phenomenon. One other think Richard has said; LAR Keels add buoyancy, but it's added in the wrong places. So they can increase hobby horsing tendencies, if the boat has them.

Thanks for the information .One point which I thought was major was the cleaning and maintenance on the daggerboards. Very good point indeed heading to Annapolis to check out some new cruisers on the 27th I will also look into the daggerboards debate cheers

Excellent summary Ryan. I thought I might contribute a couple of missed points. As a Daggerboard Pro, they will tack and gybe much faster than a deep or long fixed keel. As a Con, when downwind or a bit off and the boards are up, I find the boat hobby-horses a bit more than I would expect. Another point - the fixed keels often have a considerable amount of lead in them, sort of refuting the buoyancy argument. My take: If you are crossing oceans, the make a lot of difference. If you are cruising through the virgins, not worth the headaches. In between, make the call on performance.

Nice work on the cartoons. Adds a fun dimension and clarity to your video.

@jandradventures

7 жыл бұрын

Thanks for the support! It was kind of an experiment on how difficult they'd be to add. We probably won't ever get to fancy with animations, but I'll probably do more of it in the future. I like being able to demonstrate the concept with the images so that people who are really new to all of this can better follow along.

Great video thanks. Have you covered Catamaran lengths in any videos? Id like to know how smaller vs larger Cats handle bad weather in a world cruising application. Eg would a 42" Lagoon be more work to keep safe in bad weather vs a 52"?

Thanks for helping me make a choice!

Can you put foils in the dagger board place? Does anyone do this?

Great job... I learnt a few things

Due to your easy to follow, fluid delivery, I believe you would make an interesting teacher. If a catamaran doesn't have sufficient clearance between the water and the bridge deck, I think you guys will soon tire of the noise caused by water banging the bridge undersides. I too wanted a catamaran but the cost of those things I wanted in them drove me to a monohull. I don't like a fixed keel 'cause they keep one out of the shoal draft areas. A swing keel has benefits of both the fixed keel and the dagger-boards and they fit horizontally into a low hanging trunk for a draft around 3' and to about 10' with the keel swung down. The Southerly has such a keel and catamaran's should also have them. You can lower them down about a 1' to feel for obstructions too.

@theTeslaFalcon

2 жыл бұрын

I like the cost & look of monohulls, but the imagined claustrophic nature with my large family aboard makes monohulls intolerable. We have 9 children. While only the younger 4 will be sailing w us when we get there, I'm sure the older 5 & grandkids would like to come by for a party / weekend on occassion.

Excellent video, thank you.

Thank you Im glad I learn something new no I will get a fixed keel another thing can you make a video on why do cats flip over and how to stop this I thinking of getting a cat because of safety reason but dont want to flip over is this more of a sail thing or is it the hull thank you

Ryan this is so Awesome and informative thanks for sharing this information and your opinions best regards.

Great job as per usual you two, it's one of those things I've been scratching my head over. Like you I'd be more inclined towards fixed keel, only problem is, and I know it's a bit of sentimental idiocy. I'm a Kiwi overstayer, but Australia has been my home for well over half my life and it's looked after me and treated me well, as such I'd like my cat to be Australian designed and owned. There are only two choices really, seawind and lightwave. This is where my conundrum comes into play, I REALLY like lightwave cats, but everyone I have looked at has a single daggerboard, for bluewater cruising is that daggerboard gonna really be an advantage or detriment ? Thoughts ?

Well explained Ryan. For all of the reasons you said: More space inside, generally beamier hulls with more interior volume, more weight capacity, more simple to sail with, able to ground your boat on a beach etc, etc, Janice and I are certain that we do not want a Cat with daggerboards. We, like you want to live on our Cat and having lots of stuff on board is bound to happen. Plus I am sure when Janice is on watch she will not want to think about if the daggerboards should be higher or lower. A fixed keep boat is just so much more simple to sail and has a lot of pros over a daggerboard boat. Well presented by you. I agree with you too that the perceived speed improvement of a daggerboard boat may be slightly overstated because those with daggerboards then to be longer, slimmer performance hulls so they have that going for them as well as the daggerboards when it comes to total speed while sailing.

@jandradventures

7 жыл бұрын

Thanks! Good point on the fact that whoever is one watch needs to understand the daggerboards. At least enough to know when to wake the captain if conditions change enough.

I'm a big fan of daggerboards, and feel their advantages far outweigh their disadvantages. They take up space in the hulls, but with careful planning they can be incorporated into the layout without impacting on living space. Re storms: the best solution is to avoid them, but the next best solution is a parachute anchor, which turns the bow (or stern, depending on where you deploy the anchor from) into the waves. This greatly improves ride, and greatly reduces risk. I'm not sure that asymmetrical daggerboard deployment would be a good solution.

@partycreations

2 жыл бұрын

I agree. Why would anyone want to take a heavy sea to the beam anyway?

Hi. Thanks for the video. Can you do a video like this about inboards vs outboards?

Just saw a cat walkthrough with powered centerboards. The centerboards could be fully raised which would give many of the pros of daggerboards.

Thank you for such useful information!

Excellent comparison.

Very interesting. Beautiful dog too

@ Jessica and Ryan Adventures Ryan, great informative video, thanks. I am looking into putting dagger-boards on my cat that I'm drawing up plans for now. I've been thinking about using linear actuators that stroke either a 40" or 48" & also have the dagger-board only retract where there is still 24" acting as a keel.& at total extension it would be 72" lower than the base of the pontoon. The actuators are about $560 AUD & I plan to have them connected up remotely. Mark, Perth, Western Australia

Hello: thanks for your discussion on the difference of Keels to daggerboards. However, these are only two of the Three Catagories of traditional al unerwater appendages the 3rd being Centerboards and their variations! Let alone the New 4th Catagory being SCABBOARDs !Safety must be paramount a sailing vessel ! Crew intervention prior to Collison, impacts the hull,,Board/ Foil, Trunk, & the standing rigging stresses! Let's look at all the options of SAFETY and preformanes of all the above! continue on with your presentations with a follow up discussion & the factors Great platform for benifits of all design elements, I will look to future reviews

Thanks, very helpful info.

What about the Gemini 105 mc with folding center boards, and rudders that can be trimmed

great video, thx for the information and sharing

Thanks for the video! Well said...

Does dagger board helps against the 🐈 cat tipping over?

Two other cons to Daggerboards worth considering are that they take up valuable liveaboard space and that in the long run, any device is susceptible to Murphy's law and the ensuing cost of repairs.

@xlenau

5 жыл бұрын

Which choice regarding a boat is not susceptible to Murphy's law? A life jacket maybe?

@HgHg-yp6ft

2 жыл бұрын

@@xlenau None, the daggers just add unnecessary to the numbers of those devices especially when considering cruising as the main use of the boat...Cats are fast enough compared to monos anyway. Narrower hulls make it even worst with the box taking place...Not my idea for fun but to each their own after all.

Hi : as A Cat sailor of 60+ years I agree with som of your comments but there are other factors. You stated some of the obvious factors of the common Two underwater appendages that being said of KEELS & Daggerboards. We are talking about two of the 3 basic appendages omitting centerboards . Frankly, after 2 k years of sailinf all we have are basicly THREE choices? Untill Now! You need to learn about SCABBOARDS. i would love to talk to you and continue this discussion. Norman Cook RI USA

How would you set up your cat to do cape Horne and Antarctica

Definitely interesting video. I’m interested in the seawind 1190 cruise with daggers, removable rudders, and outboards. Obviously a pretty specific scenario, but can get down to 1’9” which is appealing. Right now my draft is 6’ on my mono hull so have plenty of time to dream while I save up for my adventures.

@DarrylWinder

Жыл бұрын

We bought an 1190 for this exact reason togther with the slightly lighter carbon contruction there is a niticable boost over the otherwise very similar 1160 mini keel. Very happy with our choice

very nice video, tons of info, thanks

Thank you for your videos, I want you to know that I appreciate your work in creating them. i live in Houston, and just took my family to the boat show in Kemah a couple of weeks ago. I think walking around on a new FP Lucia 40 finally got my wife to seriously consider a lifestyle change on land to realize the dream of sail life at some point in the future. If I were to purchase a new cat right now, I would look at the Fountaine Pajots. They seem to be the best value catamarans in my opinion. Best of luck to you guys!

@jandradventures

7 жыл бұрын

Oh cool, we almost went to the Kemah show but the 3hr drive persuaded us against it. Kinda wish we had gone though. But yeah the new generation of FP's definitely seemed to have stepped up their game. If we were shopping for a new boat, they would be a very strong contender for us.

@wesleypowell3711

7 жыл бұрын

Don't feel too bad about not coming, besides the twos cats there wasn't too much to look at.

Great info! Thank you....

I know this is a bit late but my experience on a cat with daggerboards is that they also move around in the casing which causes loud knocking at night if not at a totally still anchorage. We chocked them as much as possible at the deck level but it was impossible to remove entirely.

Sharing some of our research, hope it helps some of you! For those already in the know, what'd we miss?

@zohaf

6 жыл бұрын

full of valid points.

Nice info especially for beginners. I own a trimaran having I believe a bit of both good world's. Having a mini keel added for protection and draft going from about 2 ft to 4 feet. Also a swingkeel not a bagger board comming out of the minikeel. Swingkeel is protecting itself in the way that it will simply retract if it touches anything hard like a log or a whale. Mini keel starts at 0 forward and reaches the depth of 2 more feet so total of 4 feet draft now after about 2 feet going aft. Mini keel is foil shaped though without leading edge. Swingkeel is also foil shaped and pivots on a 5/8 SS pin. lines control swingkeel up or down. Even swingkeel is made from marine plywood and glass epoxy. Swingkeel down.gives me almost 7.ft. draft.

This is really good information, I am in the market for a boat, and I am trying to decide what to buy or build. I am leaning towards building my own aluminum sailing catamaran. I am a mechanical engineer, and I own a metal fabrication business. I have been designing a pneumatic or hydraulic deployed daggerboard that I can control from the helm. Iam currently designing a hybrid propulsion system utilizing 2 small gas turbine engines with retracting electric pods.

do they make any cats with swing keels instead of daggerboards?

What about external daggerboards? These would mount to the outside of the hulls.

Hi Ryan, great job covering this topic. One more pro on dagger boards. Modern designs are yielding more lift on the boards which provides better performance and motion than straight boards. Exposure of the sail drives and rudders is a key concern of mine given that I sail on the West Coast with much kelp and crab pots to snag. That said, I am currently evaluating two boats, one fixed keel and one dagger board. These are the Nautitech Open 46 and the ITA 14.99. I have talked to many owners of dagger board boats and the majority of them love having the dagger boards and would not want a boat with fixed keels. That said, owners of fixed keel boats love their fixed keels with the protection and simplicity they provide. So as you said, every boat and every design aspect is a compromise with their own pros and cons. You have to look at your requirements and go with the boat that meets them the best. Another key design difference in catamarans are the helm locations. It would be great to get your perspective on the different options. Thanks

@jandradventures

7 жыл бұрын

Hey! Thanks for the comment! The helm location question is actually something I've thought alot about. But have refrained from bringing up until I do some more research. I do like a lot of the Nautitech designs but the helm seems rather exposed. As seems to be the trend with most performance oriented cats. And I have to wonder if that is a big downside when doing long passages with bad weather or at night. I would think so, but I could also see how, in practice, maybe once the sails are set that people could retreat to a more protect part of the cockpit or saloon.

@iliohaleProductions

7 жыл бұрын

Just like everything else about boats, there are strong opinions on all sides. For example, if you follow the vlog for the catamaran impi, the owners love the fly bridge of their L440. I would never consider a fly bridge boat. Both the boats that have made our short list have the twin aft helms, with a few differences. I have sailed on the L40, L450S, FP 44, Leopard 39 and 44 that all have the raised single bulk head helm position. And there are pros and cons to both helm locations. We are about to leave for a week charter on an Open 46 and this will be a good test for us to determine if the pros on the aft helm outweigh the negatives. Will let you know how we feel about this topic when we return.

Sailing is one of the most enjoyable elements of cruising for us. If you go cruising you will be doing a lot of sailing, I would not be happy with a boat that could only tack through 110 degrees and had generally poor sailing ability. It's not about racing, it's the delight in sailing at 6 knots in 6 knots of breeze. Chances are, your lesser performing cat with fixed stub keels will be motoring a whole lot more when the wind drops below 10knts, which is often. Daggerboards offer many advantages with some drawbacks as you have noted. If you're considering a daggerboard cat, you've probably already placed a high priority on good sailing characteristics, and with that will come compromises in load carrying and interior volume. Compromise is an inherent part of boat design.

You can build sacrificial mini keels. If you do strike something the mini keel breaks off and doesn't compromise your hull.

Hi Ryan, I'm considering buying an Alibi 54 for long journeys across pacific ocean. choose alibi because it should be as fast as a performance cat such as a gunboat and yet its not carbon and therefore half the price, plus just about everything under the alibi cat is retractable, and its propeller generates power under sail. the other choice is to go with upmost safety, and that is the Garcia exploration 52, all aluminum, heavy and slow, but much safer. however with a hull speed of 9 something, I suspect the Garcia will only cruise at 7........ crawling in the ocean...... what do you think about the two boats? plz consider both new builds, I bought two used yachts and I'm heartbroken about used boats. thank you so much

How about a center-mounted pivoting board (centerboard)? It offers protection against grounding, doesn't intrude on interior space and can be configured to a deeper draft, improving efficiency. It could be nominally out of the water when retracted. However, I don't know of any catamarans made with this feature.

Having had a Catana, we broke two dagger boards from hitting something or too much lateral stress. On our present Grainger with fixed keels we can easily beach her to change zincs or do repairs. The keels are a must in British Columbia due to floating logs that are always out there. The keels have saved us many times and never has a log touched the sail drive. Touch wood

Have you considered buying a lagoon 38 or the 39 second hand? They can come cheap, and I heard they're great to circumnavigate ... what do you think of those boats? ( and no, I'm affiliated to lagoon at all, just curious about yr opinion on them).... cheers guys

@jandradventures

7 жыл бұрын

We have definitely considered them, for our price range and personal preferences we favor the 40'-ish range of Lagoons. So a 380 and 39 definitely fall into that category. Other options being the 400 and 410. The 42, 420 and 440 are probably to expensive for us but are also nice boats that we considered.

Thanks for this video. I think your point regarding the fact that cats with daggerboards are likely to be designed more for performance is an excellent one. In doing my research I really like the Catanas which are more performance oriented and appear to have narrower hulls as well as daggerboards. But I also really like the Lagoon's which have great volume but have admittedly lower performance. There is no "right" answer, the question is what is right for what you want out of your boat and your anticipated cruising profile. Let me add a couple of thoughts. Certainly daggerboards increase windward efficiency versus keels. They create more lift and have less drag than keels which helps the boat point better, have reduced leeway and go faster to weather. Indeed, with increasing speed, the apparent wind will move forward. However, this is not necessarily a negative as with increased speed and reduced leeway, it is likely that the boat will have better VMG (velocity made good) and even if the pointing angle is decreased relative to true wind, if the VMG is higher you will get to a weather destination sooner than a boat that may have a higher pointing angle but lower VMG. At face value monohulls go to weather "better" than cats because with their larger keels and underbody they create more lateral resistance than cats which don't have much hull in the water and have stubby, less hydrodynamic, keels. Daggerboards may even the difference in efficiency between the two types. The ultimate test would be the VMG, monohull vs cat (daggerboards or keels). Keels may have more displaced volume than daggerboards. While this may create more buoyancy, it doesn't necessarily mean that the boat floats higher or has more "reserve buoyancy" than the same hull shape with daggerboards. If the keels are filled with lead, they may actually create negative buoyancy. Salt water weighs 64 pounds per cubic foot. Lead weights 707 pounds per cubic foot. Every cubic foot of volume in a hull has the capacity to displace 64 pounds of water. By definition, the weight of the displaced water by the hull(s) is equal to the weight of the boat. The waterline is the line of equilibrium where the volume of displaced water equals the weight of the boat. So, for a cat with keels, vs a cat without keels and having approximately the same overall shape, even though the keels add a bit more volume to the hull, if they are filled with lead (or anything that weights more than 64 lbs/ft3) will cause the hulls to lie deeper in the water. Further, all this technical stuff aside, for roughly the same hull shape and sail plan, a heavier cat will have less performance than a lighter cat.

@karenchurton731

6 жыл бұрын

So...why are we talking about lead keels...on Cats...thats like an oxymoron...a total conflict in priniciples...the problem with Cats is the volume of hardware trying to push through the wind...aerodynamics calls it frontal profile & profile drag

@allistairneil8968

5 жыл бұрын

You don't put lead in catamaran keels now, do you?

@bestvip5803

5 жыл бұрын

Stay away from Lagoons, a lot of issues. Just my two cents

I was not aware of the buoyancy issue with the dagger boards and I also didn't know about the "Hobby-Horsing" increase. Thanks for the education. I'm currently watching another channel that just bought a vessel with dagger boards and I'm curious to see just how much value they really add to the ship. I'm in the market for a cat, but, like you, had settled on the mini-keel because of the space loss, critter growth and cost. I didn't really think that would make up for the pro's. Now I'll have to watch with an increased knowledge, so I'll have to look for more issues. I'm not sure if I should thank you for that or not. ;)

@andrewgriffith2173

5 жыл бұрын

What is the name of the other channel you are watching? Thanks in advance

@grancito2

5 жыл бұрын

With the keels full of diesel and water, there is no buoyancy.

Based on all this why don't we see more performance/cruising cats with hydrofoils built in? Aside from cost, which should come down as the tech becomes standard wouldn't the performance be significantly better in all circumstances?

So, if the construction of daggerboards was different, than it might be more interesting again?

From what I've heard/read, those who go for cat's w/daggerboards is because of the point you made regarding sailing upwind...

Just a quick note... you get the 2 knots of speed down wind by pulling up the daggerboards. You get a better angle to the wind by putting them down. At the 4 minute mark, you sound like you are combining the two for better angle and faster speed. You get one or the other :)

What if a fixed keel had a 'fan-like' extended keel that could be folded up or down depending on sailing requirements? Just a thought, I might be out of my depth here.lol

great job ,covered pro s and con s equally. how bout compare chinese sails to western,...speed,square footage,ease of operation, initial cost and maintenance,...i'm designing and building so all options are still on the table .solved the dagger board issue,for me,...a single centerline foiled daggerboard/rudder with sheer pin pivot for groundings or logs. and twin outboards tucked up under the aft belly 2foot outta the water for sailing.sure would appreciate a response,..thanks

The Balance 526 allows for the best of both worlds. You've got daggerboards with no above deck protrusions and very easy to raise and lower.

Thanks!

wow! good info! I will put you on my playlist for the sailing class ; if that is ok? Nice work btw; and thank you for making my life better. John the LImo drver from Kansas city

@jandradventures

7 жыл бұрын

Yeah for sure! Feel free to share it however. Glad we could be of some assistance! :)

Great video :) Good information.. TR

The reality however of owning a cat is that even though they can be beached you try and avoid this at all costs as antifouling and sand dont go well together which just means more work down the line is scrubbig the hulls, best to avoid beaching if you can.

great insight

If budget is a consideration... have you considered building your own? You'll get a more modern design, and save about half the cost in actual cash outlay. But its' a HUGE commitment, and will take about 2 - 3 years of full time work. You'll also need a place to build it, which can add to the cost. However, if you've not considered it, you might take a look at designs by Bruce Schionning (Australia) and Kurt Hughes (USA). Both produce heart stoppingly beautiful designs, and a 40 foot boat can be built for 200 - 300K.

I have a question about bridge height. It looks like a lot of the heavier, charter style catamarans tend to have lower bridge decks. I have also heard a lot of complaints about waves hitting the low bridge decks and causing anything from uncomfortable feelings to loud noises to damage.

@True_BabaYaga

7 жыл бұрын

Matthew Wright I sailed Leopard and Lagoon. The first one is considerably lower than the second. There are pluses and minuses of each design, however since Lagoon is taller it is less comfortable in maneuvering under strong the side wind. In big chop Lagoon is a bit more comfortable, however I'd think that it has less stability than Leopard, since its center of mass is higher.

great, thanks!

I'm wondering why not a single folding or hinged dagger board below the salon platform? I'm interested in the engineering of sailing, but I'm not an expert or professional. I'm just wondering why no center single board?

@cv12steve74

6 жыл бұрын

Cats can use a single daggerboard, though the trunk needs be mounted through a hull to take/transmit the loads. Look at this YT by Tim Weston on designing a large single board for his cat to get close to monohull pointing. kzread.info/dash/bejne/aYyCwdGngpzXccY.html&spfreload=10

Don't take my word for it. Look at surveys conducted by cruisers after one or two years, they pretty consistently show that performance started lower on the priority list, but after sailing for a year or two, they realize that performance equals comfort and safety. I'd refer you to Chris White's books. (His boats are for lottery winners, but the concepts are at least worth examining.) So it's not performance or cruising, it's performance AND cruising...

@jandradventures

7 жыл бұрын

Interesting perspective. And maybe that's a natural progression for people. Too bad that saying tends to hold true: With regard to sailing/boats you can have performance, comfort, and a reasonable price. But you can only choose 2.

@stevetrouble7080

7 жыл бұрын

I have heard this point also but it comes down to those that have a timeline to get somewhere, what is there, what you pack and those that want to live and enjoy where they are. One cat owner I know went from keeled to dagger boards to spend less time sailing more time anchored with less weight and went back so they could have the coffee maker and other things they missed on the boat to be less dependent on onshore cafe's and topping up water.If you are going to odd places and want to take a little more gear like he did (dive tanks, extra fuel and water, air compressor, tools to repair, coffee maker, extra food and extra safety gear and people) also the last boat was stronger and more insulated as he wanted to do southern ocean and further north.Either work and both beat the rubber ducky that sits in my bath tub :)Just get the best condition boat you can afford and do the maintenance or get something you know where the work is needed, budget for someone else to do the work and do some of it yourself (pay when you are sick of being dirty).

@monandlea777

7 жыл бұрын

What cat does your friend have?

Good video, but a major pro for minikeels is the option to careen the boat on a beach to do maintenance that would otherwise need to be done in dry dock.

Not all fixed keel production catamarans have weight bearing keels that can be beached. Some are externally tabbed onto the boat. Don’t assume you can beach one or you might be surprised :) Also, people beach certain types of daggerboard cats all of the time. Misleading dichotomy IMO. Good luck finding your boat! We are also cat shopping for our next cruising boat !

Also knowing how to tune a daggerboard to the situation you are sailing inn. The biggest drawback daggerboards leave your rudders exposed to damage of drifting debris.

You make a good case for sticking with keels but I would be keen to see if it was possible (not available right now as far as I am aware) of having retractable foils retrofitted and get the best of both. They have the ability to sail/fly up to 1.8x speed of the wind when deployed, more stable and less pitching. Manual control of the foils works but computer control would give more options dependant on conditions present.

@sebastian681224

7 жыл бұрын

Check out the GB G4. Not something that most people could afford but a cool concept in action.

@merlin8166

7 жыл бұрын

I am aware of the G4 but that is not a retrofit.

Why doesn't anybody use swing keel? Also what are the fixed keels made of, and wieght

@Sugarsail1

6 жыл бұрын

There have been a few older multihull designs made with center boards (swing keels as you say). The slot that the board folds into tends to be problematic and introduces a lot of turbulence (drag) it also means there is a centerboard trunk case on your cabin sole which gets in the way of cabin space. Having a hinge below the waterline is a maintenance issue as well so people don't usually design multihulls with centerboards anymore. Fixed keels are usually just fiberglass filled with foam on a catamaran, there is no ballast in them. Weight is slow.