As a luthier with a CNC i've relized that the only ones driving the hand made debate are luthiers themselves. I've barely heard a customer or musician talking about it. Great video, keep them coming!

@DriftwoodGuitars

3 жыл бұрын

Same here, that’s a good point.

Also having got a cnc myself, people seem to not understand the effort involved in making a successful cutting path/operation before you even get to the cutting, keep up the good work

Chris, one thing I’ve determined (after reading way too many lutherie forums) is that people get twisted up and emotionally invested in definitions and absolutes. Whether it be the definition of hand-made, or the definition of luthier, etc…..most people display an aggressive desire to hold a definitive opinion…..to publicly display it as an absolute…..and then to proclaim that everyone else who doesn’t hold the same opinion to be absolutely wrong. I choose not to invest my time rolling around with pigs in the mud, arguing over who’s lipstick looks better…..because in the end, everyone involved looks stupid…..you know…..like a muddy ‘ol pig wearing lipstick. I find that humility and respect tend to draw others to you…..while arrogance and ignorance tends to push them away. Call me what you want…..but I know what I am…..and at the end of the day, the work of my hands (and power tools) tells the real truth. Joel

I would love to see someone make a guitar neck with just Karate chops. That would be true "hand built".

@travishemming3783

3 жыл бұрын

We could allow some carving with fingernails as well. Would it also be "scratch-built" at that point? Once you start using a sharp rock to whittle away material, it's all over.

A CNC is NOT just another tool but one that takes way more skill to use than just a band saw. I think most people don’t understand the learning curve it takes to first design in a 3D software and then another element of knowledge to then CAM out a finished product. Love to see you guys are using CNC😀

As a builder of acoustic guitars for over 40 years now, I have to add my bit here. I do not currently use a CNC machine, but that's not because I am a luddite or a philosophical purist of any kind. I only build a few guitars a year, so the cost of these wondertools is prohibitive. Were I a full-time builder with a higher production I would immediately get my hands on such a tool. You make wonderful points about what is and is not essential in the hand-building process. Any tool that would allow me to streamline the repetitive aspects of building and give me more time to voice, shape, and finesse the finer points would be great. By the way, I am guessing from your neck design that you have some influence from the Roberto Venn school. Did you study there, or perhaps. like me, study under someone who did (like Somogyi)? Thanks, and keep up the excellent work, and the great videos!

"Custom Made" solves any issues people may have.

@e2jw

3 жыл бұрын

Yes, custom made is the best way. I don’t care what tools are used, I care about the artisan details and the years of experience/know-how required to achieve it. Taylor makes some awesome high-quality and very repeatable factory production guitars, and I own one. But, to commission a luthier to custom build me a guitar, THAT is a very special thing. Apples and oranges to me.

@FeuerToifel

3 жыл бұрын

i agree with that. it's neither fully handmade (if you take the strict definition) but also not fully machine made. custom made is the best term for this, imho.

@oldmantwofour5561

3 жыл бұрын

It's still hand made. You used CNC to remove waste. In short, you got it to the point you would have with a bandsaw... you made a blank. From there it's all hand shaped. So the actual building and shaping of the finished guitar is done by hand. Here's where I step on toes. You're guitars sound amazing. There is, on the other hand, a VERY famous acoustic manufacturer (starts with a T, folks) that I think sound horrible. Beautiful looking, but flat and lifeless. I've thought this LONG before I knew the extent to which their instruments were CNC'd. (I'm over 40. I've thought this since I was 15.) I can only surmise that it's the lack of a craftsman's hand that causes them to sound this way. This is where CNC goes wrong. NOT what you're doing. It's rough shaping folks. It's still hand built.

@kawmic7

3 жыл бұрын

Stradivarius was REAL handmade!!😎😎

@carltondhouston

3 жыл бұрын

What if you had an advanced cnc machine that could examine the grain, density, resonance and whatever of the wood and remove the non-musical parts and produce an otherworldly level of resonance and sustain in a set of braces and top wood? You’d still have to be able to program that excellence into the machine in order to produce a usable result. My thinking is the CNC has done what you knew to tell it to do. You made the model and created the GCode to run the machine, so in my opinion it is still your art. You just had a far more advanced tool than did Andre Amati.

A cnc is a tool, like a bandsaw or a chisel. A cnc does not build guitars. So ofcourse you’re a handbuilder.

@kawmic7

3 жыл бұрын

CNC is definetely NOT like a bandsaw or a chisel.🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣😎😎 Come on man. I would myself use any means of doing it easier and more precisely, don't get me wrong. But they're definetely not the same!

@andrewkeen1888

3 жыл бұрын

I think the major difference is CNC is computer controlled so the only mistake you can make is in the programming. IMO It's not even close to the skill set it takes to use any other woodworking tool. This is simply a tool that speeds up the building process. What computer controlled machines were used in the timber processing before you got it? I think the vital information is you are making hand voiced and hand finished guitars. Working without machines would be incredibly inefficient and as long as you are not assembling them with a machine, just having to QC the finish, factory style then IMO they are still very much hand made. Besides, the more efficient you can make your business, the more successful you will be and the happier your customers will be.

@polescalante

3 жыл бұрын

But a chisel is not a machine... The perfect example of different types of tools in this case in order of more work and skill required would be a handsaw, a bandsaw and a cnc... The cnc enormously facilitates and also speeds up the initial stages of a lot of these parts on a guitar. Chris says that the result if done with bandsaw and "hand" would be identical. Not really. Not that it would be better or worst. I know he could do it "just" as well. But it would not be identical, especially every time, like a cnc would be able to obtain. That's where a cnc is just like a robot. In the end, there's so much done by hand by the time the guitar is done though, that it would definitely be considered a hand built instrument in general terms.

@darthzen

3 жыл бұрын

@@andrewkeen1888 I'm guessing you've never actually programmed a CNC machine before. It is definitely an art, with lots of iterations and learning that goes into how to generate that template. What size bit can you use for the intricacy of the design balanced against the density of the wood? What rotational speed is right so that you cut cleanly, but without risking burning the wood? Do you do shallow passes, but more of them to get a smoother finish, at the risk of blunting the small section of the cutting surface that you're using? Or do you dig deeper on each pass to let more of the tool cutting surface be used, but at a higher risk of tear-out? Do you have the right amount of tightness in your collet so that the bit won't shift in high-density wood, but not so tight that you risk shattering the collet and scattering high-speed shrapnel across your shop? It takes a LOT of time, skill, and effort to learn how to get the CNC set up correctly to get 100% replicable builds, and a lot of time, skill, and effort to maintain that CNC so it will continue to 100% replicate your builds. As the original commenter stated, it's a tool that you use, just as a bandsaw is a tool and a chisel is a tool. We don't call it cheating because a builder uses a chisel to scrape out wood more efficiently than using his fingernails, and it's not cheating for learning an immense skill set so you can use a CNC to get consistent cuts.

@andrewkeen1888

3 жыл бұрын

@@darthzen you kinda missed the point. Of course using/programming a CNC is a highly skilled job, just a totally different skillset to using hand tools. I.e not even close! Sorry to offend 🤣

I've been waiting on MORE of your CNC work! I LOVE mine and can't even think about not using it. It's just a tool. Like your door holding up your vac hose. Classic. I do the same exact thing.

Chris I have viewed many of your videos, you are a master of your craft. Your knowledge, expertise and craftmanship are all that is required to consider your guitars as handmade.

@DriftwoodGuitars

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks so much

As a toolmaker for 50+ years I watched the evolution of machine tools from manual mills and lathes to CNC machining centers and EDM machines. We used the very same skill set to produce parts on the CNC as we did on manual machines and we had to add a new skill of becoming computer (CAD/CAM) literate. The finished product was still dependent on the skill of the craftsman. The use of CNC led to a better product at a lower cost. I consider everything I made as built by me not the machine. The machine is just another tool and we all love tools. All the products we made (molds for plastic injection molding) were one offs highly accurate and ranging from simple to “that’s not possible.” So yes you are a hand builder that makes use of the best tools available to you. Beautiful looking and sounding guitars by the way.

Why people still care about this pointless debate in 2021 is beyond me.

@MrAZed209

3 жыл бұрын

It's potato/potato or tomato/tomato isn't it?

@hahnjackers4151

3 жыл бұрын

@@MrAZed209 I don't understand. Not trying to be mean, I genuinely don't understand.

@MrAZed209

3 жыл бұрын

@@hahnjackers4151 I was making light of "handmade" vs "hand built" as it's like the way people from different parts of the world say "poh-tay-toe" or "poh-tah-toe" and "toe-may-toe" or "toe-mah-toe". When it's written down it's up to the user (speaker) to decide how to say it. With the guitar, it's up to the player to decide if hand made is better or not against hand built.

@CorbinMusso88

3 жыл бұрын

I think because ethics and morality are deeper and more important than we understand or want to believe. To be able to call yourself something as a man, you must actually be that thing, or else you are not credible and don’t deserve respect. Like when people dress up in uniforms to receive the honors of serving in the military without them actually serving in the military. It’s a terrible disgrace to get called out for stolen valor.

Excellent demonstration on the practical use of a CNC machine. I would still consider your product hand made. Also, as many other keyboard experts have pointed out, the word “custom “ has a nice ring to it. In the end, your guitars reflect all the hard work and details that you put into them with your “hands.”

As a guitar maker that does everything by hand, no cnc, I see no difference between having a cnc router do your roughing work or having it done by your apprentice. I do have a problem when automation gets used in finish carving, voicing, and inlay work. Building instruments is an art form. No one would ever complain if famous painter had an assistant stretch there canvas, but you pay a whole lot more for the hand painted originals then the prints. The line is crossed when you start removing the artist from the art.

@chrisosseweijer2798

3 жыл бұрын

Exactly !

@illugi56

Жыл бұрын

this is a year old comment. So I dont expect a reply. but I have a different take on this discussion. I am a professional machine designer, 3D designs and ultimatly 2D drawings for production of said equipment. cnc milling, cnc lathe, cnc laser cutting, cnc EDM and cnc welding and other intricate work that my job requires to make reliable machines and people that are skilled masters of their craft to make those things. dont get me wrong, I do so much appreciate items made by hand tools... it is just amazing.... but creation comes from the mind, not the tools you use... it takes years to master cnc operations and even more to learn to design for cnc.... It is the artist/mind that makes a creation, not the tools. regardless... I appriciate you and perhaps one day I will create something without my machines.... Learning is the best way forward

Very cool video. Great music, professional and engaging discussion. Subscribed

I have been trained to run a router table and program the files to create such precision shapes. After 20 years of sign making and guitar playing I can say, YOU ARE DOING A FANTASTIC JOB, of course your guitars are handmade.

It doesn't matter what other people think, its up to you and the customer and what they think, I'd have a cnc in a heartbeat if I thought I could work one !! Looks like you have a great product, carry on the good work.

most important is the quality of the end product. really dont care what the building prosess is named. a good responiv nice playing guitar is an achivement regardless.

It's just a tool. Your craftsmanship is mind blowing!

What you are doing is best for you! Mixing new with old is great!! Waste is key... in the world today... the cost of materials is going up daily!! You rock man!!!

Chris , Hands down your guitars are a thing of beauty, Using the CNC machine to make the precision cuts is Genius, I believe that using the CNC machine and your hands does Totally Justify your work as handmade master pieces, Thank you , keep up the Great work..

I'm happy i stayed til the end! The puppy is adorable lol

i am a carpenter by trade. and honestly i would never not call a piece of furniture i build with the help of a cnc handmade (and in furniture building there can be a lot more of that than in an acoustic guitar). and i think it is wrong that so many people connect the word cnc to not as good quality as cnc. a lot of the times the quality improves with the us of such a machine (again, from a furniture builders perspective)

@grooooved

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah, I agree. To me, truly handmade signifies zero use of any type power tool at all.

You are definitely a hand builder and Charlie is definitely adorable! See you in a few weeks.

It seems good to me! Keep up the good work.

You make a VERY high quality, boutique instrument. You are a shit-ton closer to being "hand-made" than 99.9% so keep doing what you are doing. You are a bad-ass!!

I think it is like using your bandsaw great job thanks for your video.

To me, "handmade acoustic instrument" means that all or most of the aesthetic and functional features of the guitar were "shaped" by a human maker *while* they are interacting with the material and the assembly, during the production process. The added value of "handmade" is that the *unique* and/or *distinctive* characteristics of the *that particular* material and the assembly are incorporated to best advantage using the experienced eyes, ears, touch, grip and aesthetic judgement of a master maker.

Hey Chris & Matt, thanks for the excellent video! The consensus is clearly that CNC is 'just another tool', albeit a super-powerful one, and I am convinced. I believe that you mention that you are using an Avid CNC machine in one of your replies. Is that correct? I seem to recall that you also mention that you use V-Carve Pro for acoustic components and Fusion 360 for the electric component. For those of us who would like to add CNC to our workflow, it would be great to have a discussion of how to get started. Yeah, there is a bunch of stuff already out there on KZread, but it would be great to get your advice!

Michelangelo famously said, “The sculpture is already complete within the marble block, before I start my work. It is already there, I just have to chisel away the superfluous material.” In much the same way, that is what you are doing with wood! I'll leave it to the luthiers in the comments to argue the semantics of "handmade" ... I see you as an Artist. Using the tools of the "day" to remove the superfluous material!

Great video, thanks. I just bought a CNC after having a similar internal dialogue and coming to the same conclusion. It's just a tool. There are so many other parts of guitar building, from finishing to electronics and set up that require hands-on work, experience, and patience. I see no reason not to use a CNC instead of double-stick taping a template (which most builders did not design themselves) and routing the outline or pockets of a guitar. If it's good enough for PRS, it's good enough for me. In my case, the biggest selling points of the CNC are repeatability, precision, and safety (too many close calls on a router table). Also, if I ever decide to use a template and go old school I can make my own!

For me it’s not about handmade or machine but the level of quality. If you can use the CNC to deliver superior quality that’s what is important.

Like you said in the solid body build, you get a guitar finished and tuned by hand. Not everyone gets a finished instrument of that calibre. My first guitar sucked but still had that special feeling. Parts like voicing the top and resonance that you value are what makes them unique.

Speaking as a luthier using mostly hand tools, i wish i could afford a cnc machine!. I love what I do and how i do it, but some things a machine does better, and lets not forget consistency and accuracy. And, i really think that the musicians don't care about the tools, they care for your time and dedication to the craft.. aanyways, that´s just my piece. Following your channel from Argentina, great content!

Yes , I say your an excellent hand builder . If i could afford one i would buy one for sure ☮️🎸🎼🎼🎼🎼✨✨✨✨✨

To me it's the quality of the materials and the sound that the instrument makes is the most important. How you get to the end result is up to the craftsman.

When I think of a guitar that is NOT hand made, I think of a production line ~ a factory guitar. You build your guitars just a few at a time and each one is very individual. Using tools such as the CNC or a band saw or any other power tools that allow you to be more productive and get more out of the time you spend creating these works of art are ~ to my mind ~ simply intelligent approaches to achieving your objective. The fact that so much of each one of your builds is done by hand, individually and custom made for that particular client separates you from many builders, both production line as well as one at a time. As far as I know, very few of your guitars have been built on spec... looking for a buyer after the fact. I know that all of the guitars that you have built for me as well as a lot of your other clients have been very custom made with a lot of dialog and input from the customer involved at various times during the process. You do beautiful work and make exceptional, world class instruments. Keep on keeping on!! It also looks like your electrics will be highly sought after! Good for you!

This is the "boutique" vs mass made. All guitars will require some manual work in the manufacturing process. Having the right tool is the right way to make you deliver higher quality with higher consistency. For some it may be that building just that one guitar every month is enough, you may increase capacity without comprise and staying true to yourself and goals using more technology. For what I can tell these instruments are best in class. Keep at it mate. This is amazing to watch and the instruments great to listen to. Can wait to get my hands on a Driftwood guitar and tell how great they feel to play!

I have been seing your videos so becoming a fan. I liked this question about cnc vs hand made because I am making a "cuatro" and first thing I did was design the instrument in CAD. This is my opinion: I think there is no a line thta define hand made vs machine made or computer made. I think there is a very wide gray zone separating the hand made vs the machine made. We all use tool now and in ancient times to make thing, so hand made would be like making a sand castle. But in the context of guitar bulding I thing we start entering in this gray zone when the tool used have some dregree of "inteligence" as the cnc does. When you program and the tool cut without someone touching the work. In hand made or you push/pull the tool or you push/pull the wood. In this video you use a cnc to make a 2D profile cut with depth control. this is like a 2nd degree on this gray zone. 1st would be a 2D with no depth control. If you program the cnc to cut a shape in 3D, like making the contour of the neck combines with its radious then it would be a next level, closer to machine made. But making a guitar (or similar instruments) is a complex process that is very dificult to automate. So I would say that at any level of cnc usage the construction would be "hand made"with cnc assist. note this is different to mass production. This is my humble opinion. Omar

Based on your other videos, you are really hands on during every stage of assembly, glue up, and and voicing the bracing. If you are saving wood and making a better and more accurately fit together guitar, that's all I care about. I think the line is crossed when cheap mass production materials are sloppily slapped together by unskilled (and probably poorly paid) workers on an assembly line, with poor quality control. The reason to have a skilled crafts-person carefully putting together a higher priced item should be to produce a superior instrument that unskilled workers and/or fully automated processes could never make, IMHO.

My friend loves James Taylor's playing and wanted an Olson James Taylor signature. Then you look at the price. WOW! If the CNC or other time saving methods brings the price down to affordability...great. We're all faced with paying up for a very desirable hand-built, or custom built. Chris's guitars look stunning. I would pay to just play one for five minutes. Love how Chris shows us his secrets on his well done videos.

A tool is something used to achieve ones final product. You my fried are an artist wit the CNBC being no more a tool then you hand saw or sandpaper ...... keep it up and be proud of what you do!

Great video. I'm guessing you have spent some time with that wireless keyboard... that is a very nice setup you have.

Hand made quality? What does that mean. Machines are far more accurate than we are, and can do it time in time out. We cannot do that. To be honest carving a neck is no big deal really . The label handmade confers ( supposedly) a "guarantee" of quality, but it doesn't really. Machines should be used to take the grunt work out, and more time can be then where only the manual method applies. To an extent, all guitars require hands on work, including assembly and set up. I suppose you could argue that using machines a lot should reduce the cost of the product. But did it? If you are saving time, should the saving be passed on. That way the customer feels that both are getting a good deal. The whole discussion about how much should someone like you charge for an instrument is an old one. Trust me, as a maker myself, I fully understand that thorny question. Further the whole question of cost and worth , is one that should be discussed. This though is a massive subject.

@DriftwoodGuitars

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks for the discussion. Good points all around.

@jayballauer8353

3 жыл бұрын

Exactly. The question for me is, why would you care to call them "hand-made" anyway, as if it's a virtue?

I see nothing wrong with a cnc machine as your demand goes up and as you've said it's something else using a power tool as you would but let's consider that an extra set of hands for example and as a time saver that way and multi tasking purposes I see it as a positive as ones business grows. You still very much do much work by hand and over see the entire thing and make all the fine touches needed. It's totally still a handmade product. Love it !

Every craftsman uses the best tools available that he/she can afford or we would still be cutting down trees with flint axes. You design your guitars and make them using the best tools and your experience to produce a quality product. It's the end product that defines it's quality and it's your reputation on the line. You use your hand skills to do the work you choose to be necessary to produce the quality your guitars are renowned for. If it works for you and your customers then it's the right decision.

Had CNC been around in 1833 CF Martin would most assuredly used the tool to build an even better instrument. Templates, fixtures, routers, sanding drums, thickness planers, electronic calipers, table and band saws are just tools, like chisels and block planes. The skill of using them to achieve the desired repeatable result, that’s the mark of a great hand builder. I would absolutely 100% call you a custom “Hand Builder”.

I definitely think that your guitars are hand made. I think that the way you use your cnc is just to get a more consistent and effective result. I like the way you use it to cut out the soundboard. When you do it that way you have a very precise result and then you have more consistency wich is very good. You still glue and shape all the braces by hand. The same with the neck. You do the general shape with the cnc and then the rest by hand. I think that if you would have shaped the neck to its final result so you would just have the final sanding left, then I wouldn't call it hand made. But that is not the case :) thank you very much for your videos. Cheers from Sweden 🇸🇪

For me it’s all about QC throughout the process. Not forcing a builder to make a guitar with a chisel, a piece of sandpaper and a horse hove. The “human aspect” is what I like. You could be putting together kit guitars as long as they had the human element in the voicing, assembly and final finish.

I really enjoy watching someone work with hand tools and I think there is a art to it but for my own projects I use the best power tools I can get my hands on and don’t blame anyone, especially when they’re doing something commercially, for using tools that take the drudge work away. If I was building any wood products for commercial purposes I’d have anything I could buy to shorten the basic shaping work time.

What software do you use for your CNC router to make your necks? I am retiring in a few years, and I would like to learn how to build acoustic guitars, resonator guitars, and mandolins when I retire. What kind of CNC machine do you recommend? Any information you can provide would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

If the product is completely finished when it leaves the cnc, it`s not handmade. But if it still needs craftmanship to put it together and get a great product it`s handmade.

I believe what people are looking for in "Hand Made" is the sense of certainty!..., to think the instrument is being scrutinised in close detail, carefully, and by each step the builder is physically in touch ensuring the quality of every detail. An "investment of time and attention", rather than machinery chugging away in the corner churning stuff out. I think truthfully, if the prospective purchaser is assured that the instrument has that true investment. whether it be a CNC for precision, or chisel it doesn't really matter, as long as "each" instrument has that!.. Personally, I love the idea of an instrument precisely and meticulously honed with CNC incorporated.

I think you summed it up perfectly. Electrics almost totally build on cnc I would not consider handmade. Acoustic guitars I believe are handmade when you thickness the top and voice the braces for each guitar to make that top sound as good as it can. Production line guitars are largely over built to standard sizes/thicknesses to withstand warranty issues.

Hi Chris. So long as you're shaping and carving a lot of your pieces,, gluing things together by hand with clamps etc., I consider that still handmade. Your guitars in my opinion are very handmade. I don't know about your other viewers, but I would absolutely love seeing a video of you creating a drawing in whichever designer software program you use, like AutoCad or whatever, then creating a DXF file (or whatever file you create), then taking that file to your Cam program to write your tool paths, then sending that file to your CNC. I'm curious as to which design and cam programs you're using etc., all the steps? Maybe you could just do one little piece of something and show us all that, so it wouldn't take up too much of your time? I understand if you're too busy.

I agree with everything you say in terms of a CNC being equivalent to a router/template. But more to the point, quality is what matters. Large-scale automation can involve cutting corners for the sake of scale, but strategic automation can clearly improve the finished product. If using a CNC at any step of the process makes the guitar look, play, and sound better then you should do it.

I think for a lot of people, "Handmade" denotes a level of attention to detail and fit and finish you don't often get from production line guitars. If you made all the parts with CNC and still hand finished and fit everything together with the attention to the braces and so on I've seen in your other videos I'd still consider it high end and hand made. You're just using the CNC to streamline the process. If you put the wood in and a completed guitar came out and no finishing required that would be different but that's not the case. Nobody goes and mines the metal to then forge screws and tuners. Nobody is drawing out their fret wire from a block of metal. If you can use tools to make a more quality and consistent product then I say that's a good thing. I think what a lot (not all) are wanting from a "handmade" guitar is quality. If I made a hand made guitar from scratch with my experience, it could be truly handmade but it would also be garbage. I'm a player, not a builder. Nobody would look at my "handmade" acoustic guitar and celebrate it as handmade. They'd throw it in the trash. It's your experience building and all the hours messing something up and learning from it and the hand finishing with the attention to detail that you show in your videos that makes it a "handmade" guitar. All that is just my opinion though.

This is a discussion that could happen in just about any area where craft and art come together. If you wanted to be as pedantic as possible about it, any power tool could be said to mean the product is not "hand made". Many areas of art are being impacted by 3D printing in a similar manner. I personally have no issue with calling your acoustic guitars "hand made" although I might suggest "custom made" is a safer term that still denotes an instrument made by a master craftsman. I do also want to say how much I enjoy your approach to what you present to us here on your channel. You strike me as a thoughtful person of integrity who is not afraid to put your approach out there and ask for feedback. That's a hard thing. As a writer and crafter myself, I know how hard it is to present your work to the public and say "make of it what you will." Keep these videos coming. They are a highlight of my day.

@DriftwoodGuitars

3 жыл бұрын

That’s such a kind comment. Thanks so much.

I'll bet that when band saws were first introduced many years ago there were people who maintained that if you used one you couldn't call your guitars "hand made".

Will you use the d tube in your acoustic necks?

I don't think most people understand what's involved with CNC, there is a lot of work and training involved learning how to model and program a part before you even get to the CNC. I think the real art is in the modeling and programing. The only difference is once it's programmed the work is done for that part and you can make it as many times as you want to without doing more programming. It is a more efficient use of time and well all know time is money. I don't understand why you don't use the CNC for the initial carve then take it to the finished shape by hand. As far as I'm concerned, CNC is just another tool like a table saw or bandsaw or any other power tool in the shop.

Its a complex and nuanced discussion and you make a lot of valid points. It does still take human skill to program the CNC, it is another labour saving power tool. But for me the critical difference is betrayed in the name - computerised numerical control. Its autonomous in operation, control by computer, a human hand doesn't need to be in the room. A bandsaw, a pillar drill, a lathe, a router - also labour saving power tools but they still have a human hand and human judgement directly in control of every movement. Still hand made. A CNC (for me) breaks that association - it's operating independently of human hand, judgement, adjustment. It isn't hand made in the sense we all use that term. Its hands free. But does that matter? Are you hand-making tuning keys, or buying them in? Hand making trussrods/D-tubes/strings/strap-buttons/screws? Not everything in the guitar is going to be hand-made, there's a degree of latitude, so to me it's just about where a customer wants to draw the line. If you're upfront and describe what is and isn't hand-made, it's up to the customer to decide what elements are critical to them. A CNC roughcut that you then shape and profile by hand shouldn't put anybody off - you used your human judgement and skill to hand finish the machine built rough part.

I think that until robots can make a complete guitar, that's playable, they're all handmade to some degree. Yours are exquisitely custom designed and crafted by a master luthier, with the most efficient tools and methods he can acquire and use while maintaining a customers, or market of customers, quality concerns at the forefront.

can you share with us what softwear or what files your using for the making of the necks

@DriftwoodGuitars

3 жыл бұрын

I use V-Carve pro for my acoustics and Fusion 360 for my electrics

Here in the UK we appear to have the same disagreements but a number of instrument makers such as Teifi harps and Patrick Eagle guitars are using CNC in the same way for the initial cutting. The CNC is just another tool to use even if it requires different skills to using a chisel.

What CNC machine and program are you using?

AS someone who operates CNC machines for a living, I'm a little biased, but yes, it's just a tool, like a bandsaw, only more precise. To me, it's the finishing that makes the difference. A manufactured guitar has a top made to a set spec, Xmm, for example. You have a spec that is a starting point, and fine tune it, depending on that specific piece of wood. The finishing takes it from a mechanical device to a piece of art. On a side note, you make ukuleles? I'd be interested in hearing how your approach to making a uke differs from making a guitar. Some people build ukuleles like they're just miniature guitars, which they are not.

Which Cnc and software are you using?

I think people look for a product that is "hand made" as a symbol for quality. Curious question why not a carbon D tube in the acoustic guitar as you did in you new electric? I saw a bent D tube which would go into the heal as well.

I think the difference lies in the fact that it’s not mass produced in a factory by multiple if not hundreds of people. You do every single step, not one step then pass it on to the next station. That’s my take, from a small bench luthier to another.

@drbarbare

3 жыл бұрын

That. "Hand made" is a label that oppose "Factory made", or "Mass manufactured". Not because of the tool used. And I am a self proclaimed hand tool snob. Well, I did get a thickness planer recently... So I guess I'm a sellout. ;) I hope this comment makes it to the top!

PRS and Novo are a good example of this philosophy, with electric guitars. Each piece of wood has its own character, and certain components and parts of the building process need to be “crafted” by a “craftsman”. Everything else benefits from the precision of the tools and automation. I personally have no problem knowing that a computer is doing the work, if the guitar is amazing! Design, materials, finish and ultimately, sound and feel are MUCH more important.

Is this method stronger than a scarf joint?

The accuracy of a CNC machine is highly superior to doing it by hand, which is why all the Major Guitar Companies use them.

@gurupmuhtesem9824

3 жыл бұрын

It's about saving money

@TheBigburcie

3 жыл бұрын

The difference between standard models and custom shop $8000 guitars is the amount of expert time and tweaking put into the finish and setup. The bodies and necks still came off a cnc or template cutting rig earlier in the process.

My main worries would be more about the headstock angle running on a short grain due to the one piece contraction, than the "hand made" label... of course it's a hand made neck since the final shaping is done by hand!

what is the model of your cnc?

For me, the "handmade" also means that the master instrument maker supervises the process from start to finish. The CNC machine is just an aid to the master, just like the sawmachine, the drumsander, or the binding cutter. But he is still present and paying attention to the details. To me, this is still "handmade", despite the machines. Don't have to do all the operations with a hand chisel or a saw. The most important thing is expertise and quality. These are present here.

When it's handmade vs factory made, the distinction is more clear. Like most here have already said, the CNC is a tool. Your hands designed the program the machine used to make the parts right?

What defferent hand saw and machine saw y need u use hand saw boss. I asked becouse u start to cut a machine saw ang den u done to use hand saw.

With the quality you produce, CNC is a way of getting the rough materials to a point where you can create an extremely high quality bespoke finish, by hand

What brand is that cnc machine?

It's the small imperfections that make the instrument perfect

For a thing such as the neck, i believe the use of the CNC for consistency and accuracy provides a much higher quality product for your customers. A tool is a tool, just because technology advances, it doesnt change the end result. Im honestly surprised you havent programed your neck profile as well.

what is the difference in the playability of the instrument

Yes all guitars are handmade, but i think “custom” or “boutique” builder is a better word if CNC is used extensively. If a extensive CNC based builder uses the word handmade, it takes away from builders who dont use any automation at all. Not because they dont have money to buy CNC or dont have the skill but for the love of the craft of using manual control and feel to build the instrument. CNC takes away the feel of woodworking but you gain efficiency and accuracy. Doesn’t mean it takes less skill to build this way, but I think “boutique builder” is a better term for your operation. This is nearly the same level of automation like Cortek and Yamaha gakki and even Gibson/Epiphone. All guitars are handmade even those made by Cort and Epiphone and Yamaha but they dont brand them as such.

As it always happens, the BIG difference is in the details. Even if you had made all the neck with the CNC, there would still be small adjustments to the outcome and the decisions regarding this specific outcome and the following steps, and, of course, the finishing. And If you had done all these things automatically, with machines, you'd have a second or third-level instrument. First-class instruments always need special care and attention, lots of, it doesn't matter if you've used machines or not.

Still hand made. The same can be said for bespoke shoe making. Some cobblers literally hand stitch the soles and uppers together, others use 100+ year-old machines to do it. Both are considered hand made and made by artisans like yourself. Keep up the great work!

you are a handmade guitar builder absolutely. i built chapman sticks and the jig that cut the frets into the wood would be considered automated, but the tool cuts them way more perfect than if one cut each by hand, so ignore all the haters.

Shout out to pita chips. The appeal of "handmade" to me is the Idea of "one of one" there may be thousands of guitars like mine out there. But THIS one is mine. That being said, all my guitars are budget guitars. So none are handmade.

In factories they build guitars by hand too. You are making extremely high quality guitars. That's the difference. They make it faster and cheaper.

CNC machines are the best thing that happened to guitar making!

@ThornWithin

3 жыл бұрын

@@gavinw5469 absolutely it is!

@ThornWithin

3 жыл бұрын

@@gavinw5469 There is some truth to what ypou are saying but generally if you simply forgret about "mojo" and stop romanticizing guitars, you'll be fine! ;) This is not hand mande VS mass produced it's human accuracy VS machine accuracy and i don't think that anyone can disagree that accuracy is one of the main keys to a great guitar!

@ThornWithin

3 жыл бұрын

@@gavinw5469 i simply do not take it as a fact that these old guitars are so damn good, because of what i wrote earlier. people love to romanticise gear which leads to extreme bias. most of these old guitars do not even intonate correctly because how inaccurate the frets were placed just as an example.

@ThornWithin

3 жыл бұрын

@@gavinw5469that's due to the natural behaviour of stringed, fretted instruments, not because the frets are not in the correct position, two very different things! The problem is that "hand made" has some magical effect on people and that in most cases it's not justified! I absolutely agree that a hand made guitar, built by a master is superb, also a CNC guitar build by a master will be superb! However, a hand built guitar by a wannabe master will not be as good a a CNC built guitar by a CNC operator simply because of the tighter tolerances and precision. Just take a look around youtube and all the thousands of "luthiers"! You will rarely see some clean work.

@gavinw5469

3 жыл бұрын

@@ThornWithin how about we both just delete all are comments. No use arguing about something we both won't change our thinking on.

I built my one and only guitar over 15 years ago. All i have to say is i wish i had a CNC machine back them.

Well, as someone who has done Woodworking not just for guitars, but construction, definitely this feeling of fundamentalism in building things and calling it handmade clearly is coming from people who dont have the pressure of making a great product repeatedly for a long time. so yeah, using a CNC to streamline the work flow and guarantee a better product is not detrimental do the hand made aspect of it, it actually maked the hand made part more fun to do, since you dont have to focus on the dimensions being just right so you can start the fun process that is shaping a guitar neck.

I think it's cool that you use the tech to save some time. The more time you spend, the higher the cost of the instrument. Some might call it cheating. I think it's using tech to save time. Even if you would CNC the profile and then use a hand scraper, you couldn't get such accuracy with the CNC.

The CNC provides consistency between necks. It is another tool, like a saw or chisel. Did you program the CNC? Or provided the specs to another craftsman that codes? It's hand made anyway you slice it.

@DriftwoodGuitars

3 жыл бұрын

I create all of my programs from scratch.

what cnc machine is that.?

Tools... we craftsman use them to make our product, our art. CNC is just another tool in our arsenal.

If it sounds good, it is good. If it plays well, it's a good instrument. The how really isn't important. Do what you need to to create the best instrument possible.

I think it doesnt matter what you call it. The cnc is a tool used to get the best quality product. Would you want a handbuilt car? My opinion is that you're using your cnc because its as close as you can get to perfection in yor product, and perfection is what you strive for. It's why your guitars are a notch or two above the norm when it comes to custom guitars.

Rough cutting the neck and finishing by hand, why not, a lot of builders are using power tools for this any way. For cutting fret slots, from a buyer's perspective this removes the chance of human error which guarantees good intonation. It's also better for the luthiers health as you can cut down on a lot of unnecessary dust exposure. I'm all for it and would use one if i had the space

The CNC to me is just another tool ,What you do and others that sets you apart from the Big Corporate Companys is your meticulous attention to details and quality in each guitar you build and thats what people really want is quality and a well built awesome sounding guitar