To prevent the formation of manganese oxide, ammonium salts are introduced into the electrolyte

Try temporarily reversing the current flow right at the start. This might help activate the surface of the Titanium, removing the oxide layer. and kick start the plating.

Okay, where to go from here? I have a few ideas about how to get the plating to work, but I wanted to hear your thoughts: 1) The most obvious solution I thought of here is to stir the catholyte (to prevent OH- ions from building up around the cathode) and to buffer a pH of 5-6. What should I use as the buffer though? A potassium hydrogen phosphate buffer seems like a good option to me (since it’s electrochemically inert), but what do you think? 2) I might be able to set up automatic addition of acid to the cathode compartment. Seems a little beyond my engineering skills but I might be able to set something up. Do you think a syringe pump might be the way to go here? 3) My original video on making manganese metal used a more dilute solution and seemed to get better plating results (though that was on a graphite cathode). Maybe a more dilute solution is all I need? 4) Should I just try a thermite reaction to make big chunks of manganese? I’d have to get some aluminium powder and some manganese dioxide, but the manganese made from thermite would probably work quite well. If you’ve got any other good ideas on making manganese, I’d love to hear them. I’m leaning towards the first option right now, but if people want to see something different, I’d be keen to try anything.

@lucas_lab

3 жыл бұрын

Couldn't you make the metal via thermite from the oxide? then again the thermite uses high temperatures and it might not make big pieces.

@lautaromorales2903

3 жыл бұрын

the manganese can be reduced with carbon like iron? because thermite might vaporize the manganese that forms

@hrajabi7261

3 жыл бұрын

I really think you get better results if you don't use a diaphragm in this cell. Simply put all of the electrodes in the same container. I guess this will allow the neutralization of OH- ion to happen faster. Don't use excess sulfuric acid or use only a little excess sulfuric acid. Spread the anodes horizontally around the container to cover all sides (4 horizontal graphite rods) . I may not be able to watch youtube in near future to see the results. :( The regime in Iran decided to completely block international Internet or heavily limit international Internet access. (not 100% decided yet) With the help from china to make domestic Internet. Even VPN is useless. (Already youtube is filtered in Iran for example) People are silent & some are getting killed in protests. Where are we going really? Sorry, I don't mean to bother with sad stories.

@ScrapScience

3 жыл бұрын

@@hrajabi7261 Really sorry to hear that dude, hope things turn out okay for you. I'm afraid I can't offer much help there. The only reason why I add a diaphragm is to stop the formation of MnO2 on the anode, which depletes the manganese concentration. If I end up trying electrolysis again, I'll probably give it a go without a diaphragm anyway, since you're right on the fact that it will stop OH- ions from building up.

@ScrapScience

3 жыл бұрын

@@lucas_lab Thermite seems to do a very good job of making the metal, so I'm definitely thinking that that's the way to go. Just need some MnO2 and some Al powder and we'll be all set.

12:50 way to turn a synthetic failure into an educational opportunity 👍 earned

Selenium Dioxide is use in the refining process. You mite be able to use it the help the electroplating process.

Hmm. I wonder if the oxide coating needs to be removed from the titanium before trying the manganese plating?

I plated mno2 from kmno4 with copper and I find this cool.

Have you tried using an organic solvent since you made this video? Or ionic liquid?

I’ve heard that if you add a little bit of selenium dioxide it will make less energy intensive.

if u use carbon electrodes, if that diaphram is an "electrolytic" diaphram, and it seems like it, this actually makes a super capacitor, so u get huge farads out of it, but I cant guess how to take advantage of it yet than just using dc and conducting through normally.

You may have the option of C réduction of MnO, Mn2O3 or MnO2. Maybe nascent H2 would work on red heated MnO excluded from air or O2? Probably would MnCl2/Al or MnO/Al or MnS/Al work aswel by aluminothermical reactions? For the rest maybe in electrolysis try: 1) MnCl2 or MnSO4 saturated with exces NH4OH... NH3 does complexate Mn(2+) or Mn(3+) and solubilise Mn(OH)2 or Mn(OH)3..so OH(-) build up would be effectless? 2)Use Mn tartrate or citrate with tartric or citric acid...those hydroxyacids ensure a buffering effect but they also do complexate cations and helps cations to remain in solution even in basic media... see the famous case of Fehling solution to identify reducing (aldehydic) sugars... by heating you get sucrate and red Cu2O precipitate... So Cu salt + tartrate salt + NaOH is a blue clear solution... while Cu(OH)2 is a heavy turquoise blue precipitate formed from usual Cu(2+) salts in NaOH solutions...it turns black as CuO above 100°C. I hope this will help you. PHILOU Zrealone from Science Madness forum.

@ScrapScience

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks! It seems like an Al/MnO2 thermite is pretty easy to set up and perform, so that's the option I'm leaning towards at the moment. If we need to try electrolysis again, I'll definitely give your ideas a go. I've been trying to look for a way to solubilise the manganese at higher pH, so this is super helpful :)

Hmm if you plated chrome metal and carbon electrode could you convert Chronum metal into Potassium dichromate or Potassium chromate? If in a basic condition like sodium carbonate? Could it work?

@ScrapScience

3 жыл бұрын

I think it's definitely possible, and I've been planning on giving it a go for a while. There are a couple of references in some very old literature suggesting that the process you've described might work. I'll try it at some point, probably after optimising the permanganate process first.

Did you ever get this to work mate? I'm trying to plate some aluminum with manganese sulfate... However I'm also struggling with the process... Weirdly my manganese sulfate is more of a green color... I made it from mnO2 (with sulfuric acid and oxalic acid) and then made another batch with sulfuric acid, iron and oxalic acid as the reducing agent... However they both turned out green after filtering 🤔

@ScrapScience

Ай бұрын

I'm afraid I haven't looked at this since making the video - all the information and experimentation I've gathered/done is here. In general though, plating aluminium is very difficult. For what reason do you need manganese-plated aluminium?

Hey at least you got sulfuric acid to try sulfate hah! Best I got was a few crumbs of manganese from MnCl2 in ethanol. Not sure if it was 96% or less :/. I kept getting hydroxide with straight water. No diaphragms either... My reasoning was pretty much: less water -> less hydroxide to form. I didn't run it for long though, kinda smells pungently fruity, maybe it's acetaldehyde. I was just banging rocks together basically but hey, I got metal! Sketchy af because flammable solvents and possible sparks!

@ScrapScience

3 жыл бұрын

Wow, thanks for the account of your experiment! I've never even tried an organic solvent, that's definitely not a bad idea for eliminating the production of the hydroxide. Production of acetaldehyde is definitely a likely result though, sounds scary. Definitely worth some future thought, thanks for the info!

Hey ScrapScience, this questions isn’t about your video, I hope you don’t mind. How can I make for example liquid sodium hydroxide into a solid form?

@ScrapScience

2 жыл бұрын

No worries, I'm always happy to try to answer anything (or at least, most things) chemistry related! I'm assuming that by 'liquid sodium hydroxide', you mean sodium hydroxide dissolved in water. Converting this to the solid form is "simple", in that you just need to boil off the water to be left with the solid NaOH. However, doing this is incredibly difficult. To get rid of most of the water, you need to heat the solution to very high temperatures (approaching 300C!). Additionally, this can't be done in glassware because it will dissolve right through your container, and it will give you incredibly severe burns if you get any of the boiling liquid (which splatters a lot!) on your skin. It's definitely something you should only do with a very good setup and a lot of safety precautions. If that's something you can pull off, go for it, but if not, I'd seriously recommend trying something different.

@synax3498

2 жыл бұрын

@@ScrapScience Thanks! I really appreciate it.

Would this be good as a battery system if charged?

@ScrapScience

3 жыл бұрын

It would work as a battery to some degree. It would generate around a volt at very limited current. While it's possible in theory, it would be ridiculous to scale this up for real energy storage. There are much better batteries which can be made much more easily.

@chanheosican6636

3 жыл бұрын

Scrap Science it makes more sense with Vanadium and sulfuric acid the Vanadium flow battery. V3- +2e- >>> V5 charged and discharged V5 >>> V3- + 2e-.

@ferriswhitehouse1476

2 жыл бұрын

It works well as a battery with a high surface area carbon cathode and a zinc anode, you get MnO2 plating instead of Mn metal. Acetate salts work better than sulfate salts.

When I tried this experiment I used a lead dioxide anode. In the beggining of the electrolysis the current was very low because I just put water in the anodic compartment, so I pippeted some of the manganese sulphate from the catode compartment and dropped it directly over the anode and the solution there became purple (for the presence of MnO4- ions I think) might this be because of the lead dioxide electrode? I must clarify that I made the manganese sulphate solution from Mn2O3 (H2SO4 + Mn2O3 --> MnSO4 + MnO2) from spent batteries (because the MnO2 is reduced in the usage of the battery) and later I discovered that the solution was acidic, so not all of the sulfuric acid was neutralized in the production of my MnSO4 sorry if my english is bad, i'm not a native speaker

@ScrapScience

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah, lead dioxide will react with manganese(II) to form permanganate (especially in slightly acidic conditions), so that's likely what's happening there.

@lautaromorales2903

3 жыл бұрын

@Scrap Science If I use this for the production of permanganic acid, how can I isolate it from the sulphuric acid?

@ScrapScience

3 жыл бұрын

Permanganic acid is virtually impossible to separate/isolate from solution in any home setup, and is still very difficult to do in professional labs. It is unstable, and so will just decompose on any reasonable attempt to evaporate or separate it from solution. I honestly have no idea where you'd even start if you wanted to isolate the permanganic acid, sorry.

@lautaromorales2903

3 жыл бұрын

@@ScrapScience thanks for answering! the main reason for the isolation of the permanganic acid was that I wanted an oxidant without potassium ions, only for experimental purpouses

@nivekakninblarg8076

2 жыл бұрын

@@lautaromorales2903 If you only wanted to remove the potassium ions, it shouldn't be too difficult to replace it or dilute it with an equivalent ion.

Do you have a way I can dm you with pictures of a problem I have?

@ScrapScience

2 жыл бұрын

My email is always available on my channel page these days. I'm not always quick to respond to questions and enquiries, but I do my best.

@joseheredia9275

2 жыл бұрын

@@ScrapScience I couldnt find it

@ScrapScience

2 жыл бұрын

Hmm, it seems like it wasn't visible on some browsers. I think it's fixed now though. Check here: kzread.infoabout

It failed because of a single ant.

assuming MnSO4 would work as other sulfates

@Jkauppa

2 жыл бұрын

why you plate titanium, select a more suitable target

@Jkauppa

2 жыл бұрын

titanium has the oxide layer too

@Jkauppa

2 жыл бұрын

maybe a two part plating, with the target in non-sulfate ion conductor, like baking soda, swap the electrolytes

@Jkauppa

2 жыл бұрын

ionized electric field sputtering, if the low voltage plating did not succeed

@Jkauppa

2 жыл бұрын

no water based electrolyte

Try Manganese nitrate. It works at high current or by brush plating.

@sonofableep13

Жыл бұрын

Is it strong? Does it flat off the titanium?

@sonofableep13

Жыл бұрын

Is it also black in color once plated?

@johnslugger

Жыл бұрын

@@sonofableep13 More of a super dark purple.

@sonofableep13

Жыл бұрын

@@johnslugger interesting can you dm me a picture?

@johnslugger

9 ай бұрын

@@sonofableep13 *After plating you need to heat both sides by rotating the titanium strip at orange-heat (1600F.) I tack weld it on a 1/4" round Ti rod with a TIG welder and mount it in a drill. Important to spin the plate in the flame so both sides get hot at the same time or you get flaky yellow TiO on the NON-FLAME side. This makes a GOOD anode that out performs platinum coated Ti!*

No "hi guys"? this is a fake channel of scrap sience 😂😂😂 /jokey

@asstronix6657

3 жыл бұрын

@Alexandre Olivier yes, cos it's a sign of this channel and this time it's sounding so different 😂👍