I have a traditional hot rod truck, but can’t afford a 15k paint job, so it’s mismatched patina for now. I’m slowly painting it myself, but not spending more than $500 on the paint job because it’s not important to me. It’s more important to get out and drive it and have fun. I don’t want to worry about it and actually encourage people, especially kids, to touch it. It’s nice to see all the smiles from folks as they get to actually touch the car at car shows unlike everyone else who’s afraid to get a fingerprint on their car. I meet so many nice folks and hear so many wonderful stories from the interactions. The guys that don’t like rat rods in this video seem like they have sticks up their asses and need to relax a bit.

Sounds to me like the same old thing, my grandfather use to have a melt down when he saw someone cut up a stock model A to make a hotrod, so you traditional hot rodders were the rat rods of that era. It don't matter: stock , hotrod , rat rod as long as YOU enjoy what you like to drive. There's room on the roads for everyone !

@siry0ggdstinguishdgent.680

6 жыл бұрын

Glenn Sloggett ...really tho. my bro... im all about automotive... ROLLIN WERKS OF ART... should be respected as a whole!!!!

@firstnamelastnameisallowed7943

6 жыл бұрын

SIR Y0GG D'stinguish'D Gent. Most rat rods are not complete cars from the beginning tho. So are but from what I have seen it's stuff that all the guys that build the "clean" ones don't want. Either way as a car guy myself, i would never dis or talk shit about someones car or truck no matter what they built or have. The experience of the build and the fun u havr doing it or driving it, seeing what others have done with their cars is the hole reason I don't but so many people are caught up in the money value of it. That's not a car guy that's a businessman.

@firstnamelastnameisallowed7943

6 жыл бұрын

Glenn Sloggett could not have said it better myself!

@gotrandy

6 жыл бұрын

You nailed Glenn! Were all of the same family. We love the old cars! Just appreciate each others uniqueness and creativity. Thumbs up to all of you old steel lovers!

@juliocolman9029

6 жыл бұрын

Glenn Sloggett watching some of this traditional builders talk shit makes me a bit mad, they just build something that looks like every other hot rod, rat rods are unique, and to me is building your own car, how you want it, if I build and pay for my shit your opinion don’t matter!!!

This is my first time seeing this video, and I can understand both sides of the story. But, if you go back to the early hot rods, they where really no different than the rat rods are today. In fact some of the old hot rods where worse because they didnt have some of the safety features that most rat rods have. But back when these guys where doing this, there where people who felt the same way towards them as the hot rod guys feel towards the rat rod guys. Im sure some guys said, oh look at what this guy did to that nice car, he chopped it all up and made it unsafe and ugly. They didnt like it because it was new or different or didnt fit in with what their idea of how a car should be. But if it wasnt for those guys, hot rodding would not have evolved into what it is today. Im not that into rat rods, but I respect them for what they are. As long as they are safe and not a threat to other people around them, thats fine. Some of these guys have some real talent and creativity into these cars. Many of them are no different than the shiny, fancy painted hot rods other than the paint job. I have seen some so called street rods or hot rods with fancy paint and all that, that I would not drive across the street because they are put together like crap. Just because they are painted and shine, does not make them a quality vehicle. And just because they have flat black or primer or no paint at all does not make them junk. Its all about being open minded, and the guys who outwardly keep saying they dont like rat rods and they are junk and so on, thats not open minded. So if these guys are so great, they should act the part and give the rat rods their due respect, because they are not going away any time soon. Thats all I got to say about that. lol Have a great day, week month or what ever, God bless.

Building your own parts is a lot more satisfying than buying a bunch of parts and putting them together! Rat Rods Rule!

@chevydyall7619

3 жыл бұрын

Watch your builds mate. You've got it going on. Love your work

Notice the difference in personality too most rat rodders are just like "Yeah whatever dude, it's cool. You do you." Whereas most trads are like "No FUCK YOU, you don't deserve to have a car!" 😂😂

@DriverGuy23

Жыл бұрын

Exactly, those up tight hot rodders need to relax. I’m glad I didn’t spend $15k on paint and body work. They’re the chumps, not me.

My Rat Rod is a Rat Rod, only because it's body is not completely finished. It's painted with spray cans. The interior is bare bones. I used some vintage parts, but, the suspension, brakes, chassis, and driveline are all safe, and dependable. No junk, but, no expensive body, and paint. Just my interpretation.

@purokbron3310

2 жыл бұрын

And on top of that you are not afraid of putting a dent on it vs a high dollar hot rod

Anyone can bolt brand new repro parts onto a factory hot rod and have a cool looking car but it takes a special guy who has the mechanical knowledge, engineering skills, etc to pull parts from 50 different things only half of which are automotive and be able to make them all work and become one functional car. I don’t think there’s a right or wrong way personally. If you like it when your done then you did it absolutely correct! There will always be folks that like it and folks that don’t regardless of which direction you went with so to me the only right way is the builder/owners way, nothing else matters

People can built what they want.. It's called freedom! As long as they are not bothering us. Uniqueness and artistry comes from within.. We should respect each other.

A Rat rod used to be a hot rod that a person with very limited funds used to build. It had everthing to do with budget. Hot rodders back then used to call them jalopies. They would go to wrecking yards and take parts off of cars that would increase the performance of their cars. Many times they would start with a car they purchased from the wrecking yard, so it was generally rusty or had a Wrecked front end or something like that,. So these kids would just remove the wrecked part, fix the motor, make it safe and just legal enough to drive, and take great pride when they would blow the doors off a "Hot Rod" with shiny new paint ,with chrome everywhere and fancy wheels. These cars are now called rat rods. That being said, the rat rods of today are becoming something completely different. They are more artistic, more personal expressions of what people think a cool car should be. I have no problem with that, as long as they keep saftey in mind when they are fabricating their cars.✌😎

Live and let live. It's called CUSTOM.

I'm just happy to see younger people getting involved with the older cars.

To begin with I have been a hot rodder for longer than most people have been alive. Rat rods are the new controversy. They are just like the original hot rods. They are turning their backs on everything, and building cars that grab your attention because they are so different, just like the original hot rods did years ago. It took me a long time to figure out what they were about. They are today's rebels who stand in the face of tradition. I love them for this reason. There are people who say they aren't built well. This is pure poppycock, or BS if that makes more sense to you. People who say this are comfortable with hot rod tradition. The rat rod is more tradition than they are with all their brand new shiny Tinker Toys sent to them in clean white boxes. In building a traditional hot rod, you can buy everything you need and snap it together with a minimal amount of welding. With that said, I am still a traditional hot rodder. I don't want to leave what brought me into it the first place, but be sure you take a real good look, before you go about badmouthing anything. :-)

Wow. Of all the things to be at odds over... custom cars? Really? Kind of leaves me feeling sick and disappointed in the community.

@mr.nobody68

5 жыл бұрын

where the hell have you been? It's been this way since before the start of Rodding.

Driving a big, ugly, loud van I get all kinds of dirty looks, people roll their windows up, plug their ears, plug their nose, I just smile, it's all part of the experience. It performs well, it's built right and it's safe. I built every bit of it and I love it, that's what it's all about. Build something you can be proud of whatever it may be and just smile at the haters. There are plenty of people out there who will appreciate your vision.

As long as you enjoy building what you're building, leave the haters in the smoke, whether it be from your tires or those broken rings that cost you 2 quarts of oil each gas fillup.😁

its interesting how the term "traditional" keeps getting thrown around. the lineage of hot rodding goes back to salt flats racing. take a look at some of those rigs, and tell me they didn't look a little rough, shabby, or out of place. it was function over form. an expression of who they were, while trying to run better, and drive faster. there's enough division in social circles these days...why do folks insist on the hate? accept it for what it is and move on.

It's called imagination and a love for a one of a kind. a rat rod should should be one of a kind just like the owner...leave your mark !

Really well done. Top quality. I'm surprised you don't have more subs or videos.

@BuilttoLastTheSeries

6 жыл бұрын

Working on episode 2 now. Just takes me a while because I’m a crew of one. Lol. I’ll get it done!

I say to each their own. To me a nice hot rod depends on how much money you have to put into a car. Where a rat rod is or should be for the guy that is building a car out of what he has on hand. Both are pieces of ART !! But I do HATE rat rods that have tons of money into the build.

So many haters just build what one want...

@electricdeckhead3083

6 жыл бұрын

amen, theres no wrong builds just wrong attitudes.

Both to me are different pieces of art. Both are off the junkyard and on the highways they are both different. I personally enjoy rat rods more.

Great to have met you at Downtown Showdown. Great first show. Dig the thought of what makes each of us tick in the kulture today... You pose some good debate in a very kool format. Look forward for more episodes. We subscribed for sure...

@BuilttoLastTheSeries

6 жыл бұрын

Thank you for the support brother!

Great channel guys. Keep'em coming!

@BuilttoLastTheSeries

6 жыл бұрын

Thank you for the support! Working on Episode 2 now!

@richhardchoppers7869

6 жыл бұрын

+Built to Last: The Series awaiting it. cool video man

I build mine all new suspension and engine and trans but a little rough on body still primed and painted(not with roller). Save my money on body work and put in in to horse power. Still love them all rat rod hot rod and the street rod. Great video

Nice episode! I love Ratrod and Hotrods, I don't think either is better than the other! Besides if it aint your car then who gives a crap what anyone thinks about it! I build my ride for my tastes!

Car building is an expression of the owner, not everyone likes the same thing so as long as the owner likes what they have built it’s all good. In saying that safety should always be paramount.

Cool vid ... thanks for sharing!

I like and build, rat rods, hot rods and low-riders. It’s all up to the person. I’m currently building what could be known as a rat-truck. It has the original parts but is beat up and rusty, it shows the life it’s had, plus I have no money for nice paint. I put nice welds on but it’s not a pretty truck to most people

@carfreakjim

5 жыл бұрын

That sounds more like an hot rod. It doesn't need to be shiny, as long it is build properly and with old parts.

I've done motorcycles for years, still have one, I also have a hotrod..the big difference for me is seeing how many people in the so called rod scene have their heads up their own ass..it's called a rod for a reason..the only thing I felt from the haters was jelousy..get over it. ratrods are cool too.

@OlofTheBald

5 жыл бұрын

No kidding man. All the hot rodders in this video spent the entire time being salty bitches about rats. Meanwhile the rat rodders are just like "cars are awesome, no matter what you drive". Really shows which crowd I'd rather hang out with.

Paint is just chemistry. So is patina. Patina is nature’s unique paint job. It takes years and years to make it become what it is.

think a lot of people are mistaken, in the late 50's a rat was the best you could afford with the money and parts at hand. It was just as safe as it could be made and had all the love and skill you possessed, just almost no store bought parts as they were rare and expensive. now the Rods have become 1/4 million dollar erector sets and the Rats an expression of inner torment.

Hot Rods & Hand Grenades. Shared to NZHRM forum.

So, what did we learn from this? Traditionalist hot-rodders: Nothing but hate and derision for anything that isn't done their way. Rad-rodders: Hey, we love all cars. Aren't cars cool? Hot rods, rat rods, we love 'em all. Let's go mess with cars, have a good time and make something cool!!

I Love them all. I have a 2001 Viper, a 1950 Chrysler that's nice and a Rat Rod from 1974. Its a 1952 Henry J. Built it in 1974, no frontend, a 32 Ford rad. shell, forklift rad. 440 Mopar engine with a Cross Ram 2-4 intake. Still driving it today, Black primer bare bones interior. I could make it into a shiny Hot Rod but Love it just the way it is.

@mr.nobody68

5 жыл бұрын

I hate how everybody puts a 32 Ford grille on fucking everything. Even seen it on a Harley-Davidson. Let's keep the 32 grille where it belongs: On a 32!

I saw a hot rod at a show that was built in the 50s, it had a Packard V8 in it.

I always thought you build a car that you want and one that you want to drive doesn't matter if its a hot rod or a rat rod as long as you like it thats the main thing i would like a hot rod that i didn't have to worrie about scratching or dinging in a shopping centre, i will build one one day.

well i´m totally(!) on the first-15-minutes-side! Btw Erin´s Shirt is kool! i´m in for one

When I was a teenager in the late 60’s I had a 36 GMC with a Pontiac V8 with a 4brl carb and an auto! Primer paint and a wooden flatbed! It was unfinished , fast, rear brakes and unsafe! LOL what the hell I was 16 and bullet proof ! LOL

I like the apocalyptical look.

So my Rat Rod is a 1936 truck turned pickup. Rusty, altered frame, totally home built. Driven to Bonneville speed week 8 years, 380 miles one way. Drives better than my 2002 Dodge pickup. But I built it to drive and drive well. All leaf springs and original layout added modern shocks. People ask when I'll paint it. I ask would you look at it longer if I did, they usually answer no. You lose all the character and history if ya paint em.

Check out the Red '33 at 14:52. The quintessential traditional hot rod..........fabulous.

There was a guy in Sonoma that sold Model As. $600 for a running decent cabriolet, $300 for a pickup.

Funny thing, the hot rod purists are the only one's hating on other builds. A true hot rod enthusiast appreciates the hard equity anyone has in their car, no matter weather they would build or drive themselves. Cars are art ,if you can't see that then you are doing it wrong.

Hot rods are a status of money while rat rods are a status of skill and engineering

Wow , They get it... "Rat" Rods WERE the First HOT RODS . They Built a Car Motorcycle with the Parts they could Make Work. they have turned into something Completely Differnt. Cool just Different

The old dude at the end of the show said it right!!

My first car cost $800. That was 1965. It was a nice 56 chevy.

Honestly, a lot of the cars being called rat rods aren't really rat rods! In my eyes a rat rod is a rusty old ratty street sign mobile! A primered hot rod isn't a rat rod! It's a 90's style traditional hot rod! ( in my eyes ) :)

@mr.nobody68

5 жыл бұрын

You had it 100% correct until you said 90s. They were doing primer only clear back in the 30s, bro.

@doug595959

2 жыл бұрын

ha ha mr nobody is right in the 70's we fixed the rust shot it with grey primer and drove it till we could afford paint old school is different things to different people

I don't think rat rod was coined in the 90's? I remember an old cartoon about a car family the father and mother were taxi's and the son wanted to be a hot rod. When the father seen his son transformed he called him a rat rod 😁

The guy at 6:30 said it best. A rat rod is an unfinished hot rod........cartoon cars, as long as it get noticed & you've got bragging rights.,anything goes. Build it good or build it good & rough. If your lazy, build a rat rod, pretty simple really!

Minimum wage was $1.25 an hr in 65. I worked at a rental place and in my grandmothers hotel. I earned my money to buy my car. Some kids were just given a car.

Episode 2 around?

The dude in the tight white t shirt cracked me up

I think there's hot rods, rat rods and freek builds. Hot roders are traditional skilled perfectionists, rat roders are broke and do what they can with what they have. Freek builds are mad, different, bold and often dangerous.

@tommys_chopshop9432

5 жыл бұрын

pinsboy just because someone builds a rat rod doesn’t mean they’re broke.. some people just enjoy the bare look.. some of us enjoy just building something in the shed and knowing we’ll be able to drive it and not have to worry about dirt and scratches or minor damage.. they have more character than most of the nice shiny fibreglass trailer queens out there..

@pinsboy

5 жыл бұрын

@@tommys_chopshop9432 cool I didn't think of that. I was just thinking of my own perspective (I didn't have a lot of money but I had a lot of junk). I get it, it's just something you can have a bit more play about with and less worries.

Say hi to that girl. Cool ride tho

Who says a rat rod is built poorly? In my mind a rat rod is engineered well but put together using cheap or refurbished parts, with an all round unpolished and unrefined look, it's a style.

@benitofasces2750

4 жыл бұрын

rat rod is the lack of style

@doug595959

2 жыл бұрын

just because you throw some parts together and it moves under its own power dosen't mean it was engineered that way. or that its safe . but that can be said about any car i've seen some traditional hot rods that were just as dangerous as any rat rod.

Rat rods will never end just getting bigger

If you look at it in the 40 & 50 vetran went to a junk yard and got parts and build there own thing to me that is traditional hot rods it started there my name is Andy I was born in 66 I grew up in a racing car family.

It seems to me like there’s different types of rat rods, there the semi traditional old school kind, then there’s the so heavily chopped and channeled cars that can’t even be driven

Theres's the same discussion in different communities. In the motorcycle scene, the guitars world. I personally love difference.I just dont like what everybody have. I am unique, so are my toys.

Who is Shorty at 26:22?

I thick what get most the people who don't like Rat Rod are the ones who spent a lot of money on there car and go to the show with their car, and the people who are at the show pass by there car and run to see the Rat Rod both are nice i my self like them all so let face it you like what you like cool but hey lets don't knock the other mans ride

@mr.nobody68

5 жыл бұрын

I think it's the guys who pay to have a shop build their dream for hundreds of thousands of dollars, only to find out nobody in his right mind will pay more than say $75k for it. And then they see the Rat guy build his car for $30,000 or less and either break even or make a profit on resale. Built>Bought.

24:08 that's Jake's merc!!!! Voodoo creaps!!!

Here is the problem, when you work for years, spend tons of money, make a car perfect, & put on a $10,000 dollar paint job on the car, most people keep them parked in the garage, under a car cover, and don't drive them much. They trailer them to events. They become "Trailer Queens". They become afraid to drive them because they don't want to mess them up. In my case, I cant afford a $10,000 paint job, and I want to drive my car every day. My cars don't have to be absolutely perfect. For me, It's all about building it myself, driving it and having fun !

Rat rods for the win in my book. I love mine. Its ME..but in vehicle form. Those who disrespect RatRods.....have Zero clue what the life is about. Not to call them down or anything...but....understand they are not crap.

I'm 61 and I know a little about rat rodders they didn't just cut the fenders off every car, those were the most beautiful things on them it takes a lot more to build any kind of hot rod than just cutting the fenders off of it ,I think it has more to do with nobody has any sheet metal skills on the English wheel anymore , it's just so dumb looking like a bird without wings .

I like both

Who is that girl in the shorts?

@mr.nobody68

5 жыл бұрын

My future ex-wife

I think there's room for all these hot rods...

Some of these guys are what me and my father in law call car Natzis . Rat rods are not junk. Just because it’s not shiny and “perfect” doesn’t make it junk. There’s a place for both. I’ve seen some really smooth great looking cars that were junk, barely ran and stopping and steering was not a priority. Then I’ve seen rat rods that were were perfect mechanically, daily driven, never broke down, steered stopped and would blow the back tires off if they wanted to. Show in shine is good, I have one. But I want a rat, too!!!

Every era and object of hobby (or admiration ) has they’re “punk” , and they’re always hated ( and “could “ be admired in secret , by both party’s) , it’ll always be like that and always will ,

Build what you like with your hands make it cool and enjoy it

You can't experience what guys in my generation did. The world ain't the same. Build a car where ALL lowered cars are prone to being stopped and checked. I remember cops having a block about the size of a pack of luckys on a stick. He used it to check the ride height.

There should be NO controversy. Hot rodding IS do whatever you want, to hell with what ever anyone else says about it. ( besides, if EVERYONE likes your car............you're doing it wrong.)

I don't think the name rot rod came from the 90's we used too call rat fink 1/25 model's rat rods in the 60's and 70's

My dad's very into both hot rods and stock classics and I love those too but rat rods are the only thing I'll be able to afford to make. A lot of the rat rodders around here have barbed wire and use old farm trucks because this is a farm community where I live and it's nostalgic. Kinda annoying when these guys at the car shows talk so much trash on the rat rodders. Makes them sound like get off my lawn crotchety old men or like they're better because they spent so much money. I know they're just set in their ways but it just looks bad

THINK EACH IS AN EXPRESSION OF ITS OWNER.....

To each his own! There is no right or wrong way to build a car, everyone has their likes and dislikes. Build how you want it and to hell with the haters. Haters are the losers that can't have what you do so they bitch about it. Build your ride and enjoy it.

There are some really well built rat rods, and some crappy hot rods

When Rat Rod was originally coined years ago they were describing a car that had been built from old Pre 60's parts scrounged in junk yards and fields and assembled into a ratty set of wheels, no ("zero") new parts were allowed, now all you see is bastardized imitations.

@Draftsman_MC1300

4 жыл бұрын

S Wylie not imitation, evolution. Things and rules change with time, when it comes to rat rod, the only rule is that there are no rules. Don’t be a boomer man.

I can see merits to both, but rust is not cool and good craftsmanship never goes out of style.

@mlewin51

6 жыл бұрын

There are rat rods that are built better than “trads “

@firstnamelastnameisallowed7943

6 жыл бұрын

Gerald5000 covering up the work u did with filler and paint is easy but to leave it bare u have to be good at what u do. just because you guys do what everyone does and makes shinny cars doesn't mean what the next guy does is wrong or not as cool. You place dollar amounts on your stuff instead of the actual experience of it and the uniqueness of each car/truck. The two types of cars are not the same at all, making something period specific and all that is a restoration, and that is awesome! But to talk shit about another man's creation or his hard work is not what cars guys do. That's what straight up hating assholes do. Having a car your so worried about getting it scratched or a dent is no fun at all!! To have it sit and rot again and shelter it is the real shame. No right or wrong way to doit as long as the creator or owner likes it. To caught up in what everyone else thinks.

@trevillyan5515

5 жыл бұрын

Rust is cool when the car is still on the road man an old car is an old car

Mechanics be hatin

You know.... at the end of the day... there's only one person that HAS to love a car, be it a hot rod or rat rod. The guy that owns it. Everyone else should lay off.

Its nice to have money and the hook ups and access to parts. But lets face it you cant find them as easy like you could find back in the day. What they all have in common is the love for the cars. Wait 30 year from now. Try to find parts then. If u have the cash youll be fine.

Should see my 60's bronco 4x4 lifted, Chevy 350 motor, 77 montie Carlo. Open front end full roll cage end to end...luv her lots... My hardtail bobber same way...they run good, maybe don't look so good to some,,,but I did it... They are all mine, won't find another like em....those fancy s. They're pretty, maybe one day I'll be rich enough,,,but not on chainsaw paying work...luv ALL HOTROD, RATRODS...gose for my Harley bobber too....

Almost any old car that someone puts his creativity and time is is good. Restorers hate them all, lol. Traditional was born out of the post WWI & WWII. Ford’s, Then T ‘s metal glass. customs, Restorods, Street rods, now rat rods it’s the evolution of individual tastes. But no matter what style they must be safe and portioned gets the thumbs up

I personally like rat rods. Not sure why these people on the video are hating. They are still considered CUSTOM. Slightly disappointed in the community.

Rat Rods ARE traditional hot rods. It started with the rats, then someone got the idea that they had to put $30K into a paint job. Take what you have and run with it, not throw wheelbarrows of money at it. It's not what you buy, it's what you build.

Nothing wrong with anything. I wish people that like cars stay more together! And help each other. No chance in switzerland to drive a hotrod on the streets. Regulations are so extreme now. And it goes worse and worse! Stay all together we have other problems now! Dont let custom work on cars goes away. In america its not that bad i know. But dont let this happen!

I'm not a huge fan of hotrods or ratrods, but I respect them both. I'm more of a muscle car and European import car guy. But I was struck by all the haters in this video. These guys sound like a bunch of old men bitching about young people's music.

There are poorly built hot rods and poorly built rat rods, and well built of both. Build what you want, how you want, so long as it's safe and done right.

Thinkin "rat rods" got more cred after the Mad Max movies came out.

The sad part is part of these cars of the art as they refer to them as was a big part of Ed Ruth.... Edwards was an art car aka the rat

Building a traditionnal, everyone builds a traditionnal, a rat rod has his personnal touch no one is the same. I don't get it why people hate a on them, but I do agree it must be safe firts like they said, after that you can whatever you want.

da wat waad iz dee only kar with the builders feel en eit or itz hiz zelf in metul. watz wool! 😀

I like rat rods and hot rods. but I like rat rods a lot better because they are more artistic and second of all you never have to wash them or worry about scratches in the paint

anybody with money can buy a production whipp ... wheres the fun in having a ride the same as every other vehicle on the road...INDIVIDUALITY IN MOTION is something too be proud of..especially if its uniformed and cleverly engineered.

I put the volume on mute so I could enjoy a video with awesome cars and trucks. I dont care if its a hot rod, a rat rod, a box on 24's, a truck with the Carolina Squat......if you enjoy working and showing your vehicle, it's cool to me. I may not like it, but I can respect it. Make it safe and enjoy it.

Fine, I suggest someone pick a venue divide it in half rat rods on one side shinney rods on the other and see where the most interest is... I know this is an old video but the haters got me irritated. Do your own thing, what other people do is none of your business. Funny though, I didn't see many rat rodders complaining about the show and shine folks. Hey show and shine hot rodders, do you think the restoration folks might have opinions on your destroying restorable cars? They probably consider many of your cars abominations. How would you answer them? I wish everyone could just have fun without judging what others do. Maybe divide that venue into three sections...

My personal opinion....if you can manage to keep it on the road but still keep it tasteful...why not