To prevent a ground loop in any plane you must hold full aileron control into the wind, left cross wind left aileron up and full right rudder. .This cross control has the effect of causing the left wing to not rise and the rudder to turn to the right and the most important reaction is to create an excessive amount of drag on the right wing which pulls the aircraft to the right, aileron down. After using this technique during my 3,000 hrs of crop-dusting in Stearmans, some ot it with crappy brakes on very narrow runways, I landed in very high 90* cross winds. In a no wind condition in a Beach T18 taildragger freighter with a cross wind gear while doing a high speed taxi. I held the rudders neutral and by turning the aileron control back and forth to the stops the Beach would weathervane 30* to 40* in the direction of the down aileron instantly. After a heavy rain going into BDL I asked the FO if he wanted to do a cross wind land so we could rollout to the cargo ramp, he said yes. He made a textbook landing in a strong crosswind and then relaxed on the controls, instantly the B727 weather vaned into the crosswind, without hesitation I put in full aileron into the cross wind and opposite rudder and the 727 straightened out instantly.. The co-pilot had no idea what happened. The only thing an airplane understands is relative wind over it's controls.

_"Like all tail-draggers, the landing isn't over until you've parked the plane"_ *_Proceeds to nose-over_

@Middy_37

3 жыл бұрын

Trainer: Remember to apply forward pressure and keep the tail up and the main wheels on the ground Trainee: Sure thing

@ErisAlter

3 жыл бұрын

@@Middy_37 "I'll show you foward pressure sir"

In the interest of taking advantage of a learning opportunity, in my humble opinion, when 3 pointing and the tail wheel is finally firmly planted, the stick should be full back giving the tail wheel some weight and authority. Also when things start to unravel good brakes are the first and last line of defense. The rooster tail of dirt coming off the right main tells me the brake on that side was not applied . I noticed the stick never got back. Red line brakes on a Stearman is mandatory equipment in my opinion. As a long time tailwheel guy I am still trying to come up with a universal 'cure' to ground loops but this has thus far eluded me. Things I know to a certainty is always land into the wind, pick your days and match them to your skill, quick action with rudder and brake is the best defense followed by slight power to get some wind over the rudder , aileron full into the wind, stick back when tail planted. Any comments please feel free. In scrutinizing this video I think he was moving too fast when the tail was lowered, the wind was from his left and the combination of speed and left crosswind before the rudder, brake and aileron correction came in, made the left wing lift and tail push right.

@prophetsnake

Жыл бұрын

If you need brakes, then you are doing it wrong.

@damiandiesel1

Жыл бұрын

@@prophetsnake How much Stearman time do you have?

@prophetsnake

Жыл бұрын

@@damiandiesel1 'Bout 1400 hours. You?

@prophetsnake

Жыл бұрын

@@damiandiesel1 and that's on top of about 4,00 in Twin Beech, 2,000 DC3, fe hundred in Pitts of various description: Bird Dog, Luscombe, T cart, countless hours in pretty much every variety of Cub, All the usual Stinsons, as well as a Tri-motor 6000), T-6, Rearwin Sporster and Cloudster, Waco UPF-7 as well as a bit of time in an UBF-2, Pawnee, all kinds of airknockers and various Citabrias. Can't remember anymore off the top of my head but a bunch of different homebuilts to boot. Oh, and 20,00 plus in half a dozen jet airliner types and another 3,000 or so turboprop. I will say it again- if you are using the brakes in any type of airplane habitually, you have no business being in that airplane.

@damiandiesel1

Жыл бұрын

@@prophetsnake I reiterate, when all aerodynamic controls are futile, all you have left is brakes and I want them to work. With all your supposed experience, tell us all that you don't use differential brakes in a blasting crosswind landing. Blanket statements like you used when you said "if you need brakes you are doing something wrong" should be thought about before imprinting in history.

Stall a few feet above ground. Three points once tail down full stick back to keep tail from flying. Rudder until loss of authority then move up on peddles to gently control individual wheel brakes. Once at taxi speed exit field to allow other aircraft landing space. Always check for clearance of other parked or taxiing aircraft.

@kylewood17

3 ай бұрын

It’s funny how many people don’t seem to understand this. I think the people on the wheel landing fence don’t understand the full stall three point.

Those crosswind landing go a little bit better if you use the ailerons, too.

My father told the story that as a USAAF cadet his instructor being pleased with him told him to show the other cadets how to do a landing correctly but he did a ground loop of his Stearman in front of everyone. Went on to be a B-17 AC though....

My boss has one and ive been up in it 3 times , what great ride.

If you watch in slow motion, there doesn't seem to be any counter-rudder applied as the aircraft begins to yaw left. In fact, there doesn't seem to be very much rudder movement going on at all. Perhaps it's just the angle? Either way, glad the damage wasn't serious and no-one was hurt.

@alexfeatherstone6676

4 жыл бұрын

He was definitely using his rudder. Look carefully.

@itzajdmting

4 жыл бұрын

@@alexfeatherstone6676 I see i wrote this 5 years ago... now by beaming it to a big lcd tv and using slow motion i can see that there was much more rudder input involved, you're correct.

@daveshangar6820

3 жыл бұрын

That's what I was thinking. If he was using his Rudder it obviously wasn't enough. Do all taildraggers have a tail wheel lock?

@benjigault9043

2 жыл бұрын

@@daveshangar6820 no, the stearman flew did not have a tailwheel lock

Glad to see the pilot and passenger weren't hurt! The pilot seemed to be crabbing on short final to counteract the drift, but in the transition for touchdown, I didn't notice any left aileron application to lower the upwind wing, to keep the aircraft from drifting. You can see generous amounts of rudder use as the pilot fights the "weather vane" affect of the crosswind. Not trying to criticize, just my observation. Great video for crosswind landing training!

@nittynorns

9 жыл бұрын

Robert Theflyinhawaiian I agree - the crosswind was coming from the pilot's port side and he should have had a fair chunk of left aileron in but instead, he seemed to be rolling to his right - the wind got under the port wings. He had some right rudder but at the decelerating speed and with no prop-wash, I doubt it was very effective. He had a boot-full of right rudder once the loop had reached the point of no return but this had little effect. Easy to sit here and criticise I know :) Fantastic video though - one of the best I've seen of a ground loop.

@flyinhawaiian5848

9 жыл бұрын

+Michael Gillam Yeah, I think we both agree that the pilot's crosswind landing technique needs a little work. With tall gear struts and a somewhat narrow track, the Stearman is particularly vulnerable to ground looping, if proper technique isn't initiated early on. As you stated, once it starts swapping ends at low speed, your rudder (and ailerons for that matter) are less effective, and you're just "going along for the ride!"

@aviatortrevor

9 жыл бұрын

Robert Theflyinhawaiian Left aileron? It looked like the crosswind was from the pilot's right side. Wouldn't you use right aileron (right stick) after touch down in that crosswind from the right? Correct me if I'm wrong.

@flyinhawaiian5848

9 жыл бұрын

aviatortrevor Without a windsock, or some natural reference indicating the direction of the wind, it appears to me, based on the amount of right rudder deflection the pilot is applying after touchdown, that the aircraft is trying to weathervane to the left, an indication of a left crosswind. The left wing rising is another indicator, unless the pilot is applying right aileron to counteract a right crosswind, as you suggest. I could be wrong as well. Either way, I don't see a whole lot of aileron in either direction, when there should have been, to keep that upwind wing down. Stick into the wind, opposite rudder to keep the aircraft nose pointed down the runway, will keep you out of trouble, most of the time!

@aviatortrevor

9 жыл бұрын

Robert Theflyinhawaiian Ah, I see, we were interpreting the direction of the wind differently, but agree about the ailerons needing to be "into the wind", meaning, a headwind from the right calls for right-stick, and a headwind from the left calls for left-stick. When he is moments from touching down, he's banked to his right, which led me to believe the wind was from his right, but you are correct to say that his right rudder would be an indication of a wind from his left.

Trent Palmer explains ground loops perfectly and scientifically.. He says there are gremlins at every airport ready to jump at a taildragger if they are not at 100% attention. He believes, and he hangs out with a BUNCH of pilots of taildraggers...it is not a question of "IF"...But "when"

@mutlah

2 жыл бұрын

I found out I was applying brake while pushing rudder. Got it going straight again but panicked and locked up both brakes. Flipped on our back in about 2.5 blinks. Don't lock up the brakes. Go lift the tail off the ground and see just how light your tail is. My 120 was eager to flip with a guy like me on both brakes. Took me over a year to figure out why it started ground looping in the first place. I thought I knew to keep off the brakes. Now I really know to stay off the brakes. Take-offs aren't zig-zagged anymore either!

I'd like permission to use part of this video in an upcoming production I am doing about tail wheel flying and explaining the ground loop. Full credit will be given of course. I will also PM you.

@raydenkreps2014

4 жыл бұрын

A little late to the party but I love your work dude.

It looks like there should have been more right rudder, and right brake on the low-wing side, correct?

Both aircraft were wheel landed which is way wrong for a Stearman. When the red one came in and was upset on one wheel he should have powered up and gone around. Both aircraft came in with to much speed . Pull the trim to the 10 o’clock engine rpm at 1300 get about 5 ft over the runway at about 55 mph , kill the power and it sets right down on all 3, stay on the rudders and brakes , stick all back .😀

didn't see the left aileron up at all either, assuming the left crosswind...not to mention rudder right. Oh well.........that's why they call it flying

The first Stearman that landed you saw his Rudder really working the one that ground looped hardly saw any rudder work at all

It can happen quickly.. what I would have liked to see is a roll into the wind, touching down the upwind gear, feeding additional aileron in, keeping the rudder in, and continue adding aileron as the airplane slows down, and keeping the rudder in all the way to the stops as needed.. The stearman has touchy brakes, but as a last resort full aileron into the wind, full rudder, and tap the brake and it will straighten out.. It appears he relaxed when it was on the ground.. even more touchy on pavement.. Glad it turned out not so bad.. there are a lot of lower wings out there being rebuilt.. If you survived the stearman, and the AT-6, you could handle a taildragger fighter.. both those planes try to kill you every time you fly until the light bulb comes on.. To many guys don't align the fuselage early enough..

@goose-F16

8 жыл бұрын

I survived a near miss on my Sedan in a 15 knot xw.. It was an educational experience, and I have a lot of flight time.. Its certainly humbling.. Im very glad she will fly again and no one was hurt..

@hotrodray9884

6 жыл бұрын

If you cant handle a taildragger without using brakes period, and dont fly tie dwn to tie down, you better stick to Cessna 172 or Honda Civic.

SOMEBODY PLEASE teach these guys how to land a Stearman ! Both were TOO fast landing ! On final they should pull the trim back to the first notch get about 4 foot off the ground with no power hold it and it WILL set down at about 50mph in a 3 point stance , pull the stick full back and steer with the rudders an brakes . Both those aircraft landed on the mains with out tail wheel authority. When it started going around he had no tail wheel authority or left brake because the left wheel lifted so the only action left was full left stick , throttle up and go around.

Very, very lucky there was no appreciable damage. I had to replace and recover a wing for a friend on a PA-20 Tri-Pacer. once due to a ground loop. Lots of fun learning how to fabricate and cover a wing...but took the plane out of service for quite some time.

@NorthForkFisherman

Жыл бұрын

@@ggeorge4144 Sorry, it was a PA-20 Pacer. Thank you for catching that.

@NorthForkFisherman

Жыл бұрын

@@ggeorge4144 Well, there's still at least one more flying... it was a long ass time ago (20 years)

He came in wing high the whole way. It's a wonder he didn't flip the plane over. Keep the stick into the wind....the whole way, even taxiing

Wheel landings all. Better to touch down in a three point attitude so that the aircraft is finished flying. Any bounce will be small, and if a ground loop develops it's unlikely to drag a wing tip.

Looks like an intentional ground loop to me? As the ground loop began, there was no attempt to stop it using rudder. What's with that?

Glad this didn't happen to me as I was stood ON TOP of the Stearman when my man landed it as can be seen on my KZread channel! I'm going back again for more aerobatic manoeuvres in the summer time.

You can see the pilot fighting a cross wind and the crabbing on final. Definitely needs work on his cross wind landings. Furthermore pilot forced the landing a bit when he force the tail down which escalated the ground loop when not applying enough aileron to keep the wing down and not enough breaks.

Too fast at touchdown, I though the plot was making a low pass. An application of right brake could have prevented the ground loop. I read below a suggestion that “adding power to get air flowing over the rudder to regain directional control” is a good remedy to a pending ground loop. This is an old saw that worked back in the days when young army air corps pilots landed in large square fields with nothing in any direction to hit, and always into the wind. This method can work in an old, slow landing airknocker but not in an aircraft with high wing loading like this Stearman. The last thing a tailwind pilot should do is stuff a bunch of power in when the nose of the airplane is pointed off the edge of a narrow runway. I’ve never once used this technique in 50 yrs of flying taildraggers. The same commenter however also recommended that good brakes are the answer here. Ding, Ding…..he wins the prize, all taildraggers need good brakes. Don’t let anyone tell you that a good tail wheel pilot doesn’t need to use brakes, that’s such BS. Try landing a Pitts on a short narrow RWY without good brakes.

Wanted to see what a ground loop was... now I know

I always imagine that must be like driving a forklift at 100 km/h carrying a long load crossways. That unstable.

A little annoying that rudder action is not shown at all in the 'correct example' footage.

Similar thing happened to me in a c120 landing short field and my right brake went soft fortunately for me the wing did not make contact just a few donuts down the runway😳

I was very fortunate to have started my flying lessons in a tail dragger, and to have soloed in one. In fact, most of my flight hours leading up to my Private license was in tail draggers. Had a few hours in tricycle gear planes. It is little problem for one who starts out in tail draggers to transition to a nose wheel. But I have watched, cringing, as those that initially learned with a nose wheel transition to a tail dragger. Seldom pretty! There is an old saying! There are those that have ground looped a tail dragger, and those that haven't! Yet!

@EamonnSeoigh

5 жыл бұрын

I did my training in a trike. My instructor was the school tailwheel guy. He taught me to land like it was a tailwheel rig. "Land on yer bum". As a game, I owed him at beer call if I put the nose down without the yoke in my lap. My transitions to other tailwheel a/c were seamless as a result. Wheel landings were easier, too...because I learned what to expect in and out of the power as attitude changed. Good memories....

@Valor_73737

5 жыл бұрын

@@EamonnSeoigh You had a great instructor!

So I’m new to this concept as I’ve just been pondering tail dragged ultralights for my tiny yard. I know I know bad idea. Anyways, if you feel the loop coming is it possible to just accelerate and start flyin out of it? Or is it way too late and you risk ripping gear off with a side load

@saltydecimator

Жыл бұрын

@@My_Fair_Lady I see. Thank you!! Still haven’t. Committed to tw training. Maybe one day

@saltydecimator

Жыл бұрын

@@My_Fair_Lady well that’s refreshing to hear! I kinda was wondering if that was the way of it. Flying in general : It’s one of those experiences that’s real hard to describe/book learn but if you just stick someone in the seat they will get it figured out. If they have the skill and desire. I’m swapping spars in a citabria right now! Doubt they will Let me fly it when it’s done lolz

1:52 neutral rudder, 1:54 tail moving right but still not full right rudder... sleepy feet? Stopped flying before tiedown (essential to fly until tied down) ?

@Bartonovich52

7 жыл бұрын

Same with ailerons. Obviously a left crosswind on approach.. should have been left wing low and full left aileron for the whole ground roll... not just as the left wing lifted.

@hotrodray9884

6 жыл бұрын

He lost it at 6 ft, watch him again.

It's much more difficult to ground loop on grass than it is on pavement but you better check inside the wing to make sure the spar is in tact.

@mustangtonto5862

2 жыл бұрын

Absolutely!

First time I ever went up in an airplane, ground looped into a ditch on landing in a J-3! Got my ticket yrs later so didn't scare me TOO much!

Unless the P-47 & P-51, the AT-6 Harvard and the Boeing PT-17 has a narrow main landing gear, resulting in various ground loops!

Too little and late left & no back stick. All these ground loop videos show the same problems. You need to “drive your elbows back through the side of the airplane” whenever the tail wheel is on the ground, even taxiing. Never give it an inch.

@pilot6764

6 жыл бұрын

Amen.

Sadly, 15,000 were killed in training accidents in WW2

Fer heaven's sake! He did an okay job, touching down--rollout was going jus' fine--Had it Made, or so it appeared! Things got Rude rather late in the rollout. Maybe he relaxed a little too early.

Too hot? Not enough counter-rudder? Hard to tell.

Seems like he was using the "crabbing" before touchdown technique instead of a side slip with the upwind wing down and touching the upwind main before the others...I prefer the latter. I've found that using the crab technique makes for a really awkward transition into the flare. Much easier to land in a crosswind when you are already configured with the wing down into the wind and using the rudder to keep it on centerline. Just my opinion.

@benjigault9043

2 жыл бұрын

Most tailwheel guys prefer the crab for visibility and then transition to the slip. Agree that the big issue here is he didnt have enough left aileron in and let some wind get under that wing.. that was the start, and then maybe relaxed the feet thinking that was the worst of it.. cant stop flying em till they are in the hangar or tied down...

Wind blowing or not: Ailerons PROPORTIONALY & OPPOSITE the needed rudder. Ailerons ARE ; 2 to 4 times larger in area, & 2 to 4 times the leverage of the wee rudder & horizontal to the relative wind, so unstalled after landing, compared to the VERTICAL wee rudder. CFI 1507987 since early 1960's.

asleep at the rudder completely

Too fast and seems like no control inputs at all until the wing hit the ground. I would never have assumed that airplane was safe to fly until all the left wing spars had been checked for compression failures.Those wings are wooden structure.

It sure rolled the tire bead off the rim with all that sideloading..

Always something with a pt17

I went up in a Stearman, such a squirrely bird

@bensonmilam6022

4 жыл бұрын

not a bad as a PITTS!

Too little too late on the right rudder.

What you didn't see was the pilot "fanning" the rudder.

0:10 "we built this city" played and i thought it was in the video... timing...

You have to steer man to avoid ground loops.

Budd Davidson once voted the Boeing Stearman the best plane to do a groundloop in...so if you're eve caught in one, hope that's its a Stearman. =D

On dirt or grass the Stearman wheel landings are NEVER a good choice. A wheel landing is the number one indicator that your attempting to land with to much speed . Max 80 in the pattern on final 65 pull back one notch trim get about 5 feet over the runway , hold it and it will land it’s self. On touch down pull the stick full back and stay on the rudder pedals , use brake if you need .

I can relate. I threw my phone from the roof, and it broke. I guess airplane mode wasn’t working. What do you expect on a 7 year old video?

been there, done that

There is this thing called a rudder..use it..

Looked to me to be completely avoidable. What a shame.

Crosswind caught him??? What??? Asleep at the stick.... I have never groundlooped. Especially a Stearman. You cant fly with your head in the cockpit or up your arse either.

@loddude5706

5 жыл бұрын

Thankfully for the rest of us, there's no space at all in Ray's arse, it's cram-bang full of pomp . . .

Okay, so there's this Stearman coming in and then there's this group of ol' buddies, backs to the action, pointing to grazing cows or somethig ...

@stranraerwal

5 жыл бұрын

Siren851: those "old buddies" were trying out their hearings aids.

Been there, done that....once

R U D D E R !!!! DAH!

Learn what your feet are for.

Sexy red plane !

fella needs to stick to flying kites

As it goes......... real pilots fly taildraggers....and real taildraggers fly pilots

With my very limited tail dragged experience, I would plant all three wheels, and hope for the best.

Always happens to me in flight simulators.

TOO FAST TOO TOO FAST, always bring it just above runway and let it slow down as you easily pull nose up…never wheel land a Stearman unless you want to chance it..

A result of landing............TOO FAST!!