I feed my Tidal into a small Triangle AIO streamer controlled by wifi from an old Sony tablet. The Triangle AIO outputs digital via Toslink to Chord Mojo 2, which in turn outputs via RCA to an Atoll AM100 power amplifier. Speakers are B&W CM8. Since Atoll power amp has no volume control, I use a volume feature in the Triangle AIO streamer along with volume control inside Mojo2. The magic that this setup delivers makes me fulfilled completely.

Thanks for sure Paul great stuff

This video is useful to me as I'm trying to get the best sound out of my computer and do have a USB to ext dac that has the rca and tossing or fiber optic

What ever you use and are happy with is the best. For me that is I2S on short (3" to 4") coax connections inside a streamer/DAC as they originally were intended. I use UFL connectors but SMA would be better. Using a single board computer to eliminate USB was a step in the right direction. It acts as the player while the user interface is elsewhere on the network. Typically my phone or a laptop. To be clear, all these items are very low impact that you struggle to hear. More engaging and toe tapping realism than hearing a problem or a solution.

Data is data and the cable needs to be standard compliant, thus you won’t have data errors, but I prefer a single clock master in the DAC managing the D/A conversion precisely and use asynchronous data transfer from source to DAC. USB C can do that job of the final link between streamer and DAC. I don’t like having multiple oscillators trying to act as clock master for the data flow and PLLs trying to make it sync (e.g. yielding jitter issues). If my music is originating from some Amazon data center stored on some hard disk drive the hard disk containing my music track is read asynchronously and ideally the music data is transferred to the DAC itself all asynchronously where the samples can be buffered. This asynchronous pulling method is the superior way of the future. So one additional concern is that you don’t want to introduce any sample rate conversion and your DAC needs to run in the native format of the track. Methods of pushing the data from the source via TOSLink, SPDIF or I2S aren’t true to the idea of a single clock master (DAC) and running the stream asynchronously. USB C is in itself not galvanic isolating but there are ways to avoid that being a problem.

@dannyfannyfoodle

Ай бұрын

Wow! I think I understood about 20% of what you said and I think, if I understood correctly, that is the reason I’m using the USB output from my streamer to my DAC. I have a Naim DAC V1 that has asynchronous USB which, as I understand it, takes the stream and runs it through the Naim’s own built-in clock which I imagine to be significantly better than the one in my streamer, currently a Bluesound N130 (also have an iFi Zen Stream). Is this correct? Is this the asynchronous transmission you’re referring to or something else altogether? Thanks!

@ThinkingBetter

Ай бұрын

@@dannyfannyfoodle Yes that is what I’m talking about. Asynchronous data transfer for streaming simply means you pull the data from the source and buffer enough data locally to allow the DAC clock to run precisely the timing of the playback. The reason music playback over the internet is even possible is thanks to asynchronous data transfer as there is just no way to reliably tick every sample through the internet exactly when the sample is needed. The buffer size needs to be big enough to ensure it never runs empty if the data flow is momentarily slower, e.g. through the Internet.

@dannyfannyfoodle

Ай бұрын

@@ThinkingBetter Thank you so much! I have to say, the Naim DAC V1 sounds incredible and does seem fairly unique in its asynchronous usb approach. I guess the new version of that is I2S which goes a step further? In any case, I’m a happy camper and in no hurry to replace my DAC - even if it is getting “older” in digital tech terms.

@ThinkingBetter

Ай бұрын

@@dannyfannyfoodle No, I2S is synchronous and lacks any capability protocol like a modern USB C connection. It can only do a tiny subset of what USB C can do. The advantage of I2S is that it’s much simpler and cheaper to implement as it is more of a pure hardware interface. I2S has been widely used internally inside CD players, TVs and mobile phones for decades. I’ve used it in many R&D projects I’ve done through the 90s.

@dannyfannyfoodle

Ай бұрын

@@ThinkingBetter Some would have us believe it’s the audio panacea. Given the uncertainty about compatibility due to lack of a standardized protocol, I just haven’t been very interested to know much more about it. I know John Darko likes to call it “audiophile catnip”, which I find amusing. Thanks for your very thoughtful and helpful replies. I truly appreciate you sharing your knowledge.

The difference I hear going from my streamer box through my amp is HUGE/UGE depending on whether or not I'm using my rca interconnect (audioquest incidentally!) or a toslink cable, BUT using the toslink also switches the dac to use the amplifier's internal one rather than the streamer's dac. So it's difficult to tell whether or not the dac or the cable is having most influence on my preference of sound, but the toslink route is massively better than the rca route. The sound is so much more transparent and airier, to the extent that when I switch to rca (I can have both cables connected at the same time so its really easy to switch them mid track) it sounds like the speakers are being muffled, the difference is that apparent. I had been listening via the rca for many years, and purely out of curiosity tried the toslink connection as I got a cable with a new TV, and I was truly staggered at the improvement in sound (to my ears). If your amp/dac/streamer can all connect via toslink, try it out, but be aware of which dac is being used in the chain if you have multiples... I'm not sure what dac would be used if for example you have a CD player connected to an amp which has an internal dac.

@michaelwozniak8860

Ай бұрын

When you say RCA is it a red/white analog or single-ended digital? (Like toslink) If you're using the red/white output that means analog which uses the streamers internal DAC. The single-ended toslink or coaxial RCA is passing straight digital signal to the amp/receiver's DAC for conversion.

@obscurazone

Ай бұрын

@@michaelwozniak8860 Yes analogue - not using a splitter with the RCA interconnect cable. And indeed, if I am using the RCA inputs the streamer's internal DAC is used (as I said). Using the toslink directly to the amp utilises the amp's dac - and as I said, it is difficult to test whether or not I get a vast improvement in sound as a consequence of the internal DAC on the amp OR more so from the toslink straight signal (or both). My general point being, try the toslink route if you have the inputs and a similar chain as me re. dacs. You might be very surprised.

@danmarjenka6361

Ай бұрын

You are almost certainly hearing the difference that the (probably) better quality DAC (inside your amplifier) is making. You didn't say what kind of streamer you have, but if your streamer's DAC is just as high of quality as the DAC in your amplifier, then the reason the DAC in your amplifier sounds better is because it is simply a better match for the rest of your system.

@obscurazone

Ай бұрын

@@danmarjenka6361 The Onkyo amp has an integrated Wolfson 192kH/24-bit DAC. I have a Raumfeld connector 2 streamer box plugged into it, which also has a 192kH/24-bit DAC inside it (Cirrus Logic) so both DACs are well matched in terms of price point/capacity. Raumfeld are no longer in production (purchased by Teufel) but they were a well respected German brand who made good quality gear, and that streamer with the cirrus dac is decent for the price - some would say the cirrus is actually a better dac than the wolfson in the amp. I use the amp, plugged into (at various times) a set of Dali Zensor 3 speakers, Tannoy Revolution 2, and Audio Physic Spark 3 - so a good mix of budget and entry level "audiophile" (yawn). I'm a guy in my mid 40s, so my hearing undoubtedly isn't as good as it was 20 years ago, but when I flick between using the RCA connector and using the toslink (as I said, I can have both leads connected on two separate line inputs and just switch between them whilst playing a track) the difference I hear is extraordinarily apparent. The toslink line is far superior in every way, night and day difference over the RCA line. So yeah, as I said....given the similarity in dacs between the two devices, I can only assume the toslink fiber optic cable, with its very unobstructed direct feed to the amp, is enabling a far more detailed and spacious/airier sound.

@obscurazone

28 күн бұрын

@@West3rror Why are you saying this as if I do not understand this? Did you miss the part in my original post where I quite literally state how using the toslink bypasses the internal DAC on the streamer? I'm well aware of how things work thanks. Learn how to read.

Cool, knowledge sharing as usual is great.

Hi Paul. Thanks for these great videos. I agree on using AQ cables. These guys knows how to make cables. I upgraded from thr Forest HDMI cables to the Cinnamon HDMI cables. The improvement in sound and picture quality was HUGE. Which model after Cinnamon (Chocolate, Vodka etc) would you recommend for a good AV system, for a future picture and sound quality upgrade? Thanks Johannes. Cape Town South Africa.

Wow Paul camera looks great today

I2S on alot of DACs requires a sync between tracks that can take 2 seconds. I have a I2S connection option but USB is as good and no sync issues

This is a complex task to answer... If we strictly talk about digital signal from streamer to DAC there are a lot to discuss and Paul was just touching the subject. You may want to pay attention where the clock is located, because that changes depending of format. USB and I2S = clock in DAC. Opt, Coax and AES = clock in streamer? Does this matter and will a higher class DAC handle incoming clock data better even if you have a lower class streamer sending a all-in-all digital data stream, let say by a coax cable?? What about power supply and its potential to lower the noise floor? This can go on and on. Make your own tests and trust your ears?! No, that is to hard - just read compromised "reviews". Cheers!

What about a toslink with multiple glass fiber optic strands?

Tube dac are best with coaxial

Question for Paul. Will an I-squared-S out work into a normal HDMI in? I don’t know much of anything about I-squared-S.

@Sunshine_Superman

Ай бұрын

The short answer is no. It has to be I2S to I2S. The cable is HDMI. If you aren't connecting between 2 boxes of the same manufacturer then you may also need to configure the pins on the receiving device.

Is there a specific audioquest XLR cable with best price to performance ratio?

@daiblaze1396

29 күн бұрын

If you want to break the bank yes. If not, this brand is overrated : cheap parts, cable are weak. But that is the case for any brand with a cable below 250 $ (my experience). Decided to build mine, pair is 25 $ (Mogami/Canare cable with ), best sound I have experience on my system : the veil was gone. Then I cut the Audioquest cable (King cobra RCA) to see for myself how crappy this was. I was amazed about how poor the connector was built : only 2 metal plate bind together. Copper seemed ok though. These brands ask for way too much for the quality they offer. No wonder the snake oil rant goes still wild. Paul should have insist on it.

Yes have audioquest cables all dragon. Dragon is all silver. The difference is shielding internally and how they cables are made with the strands. Lower lines are copper, then go up to copper/silver, then all silver. For DAC streamer I use WEL signature cables. You are talking 100k in wiring just about even at a discount. The Dragons took awhile to break in. They start a little bright being all silver but then rolled off nicely. For most the all copper to copper/silver will give a noticeable improvement. When people ask a question they need to first look at their budget for their system as there are different remedies available at various levels. Some audiophiles upgrade over 30 to 40 years of time to build their ultimate system.

@chungang7037

Ай бұрын

I ...guess...you caught the dragon?

Neglecting to mention USB seems a big oversight, as it's a cable type a great many of us use to connect our streamer to our DAC?

@tamstutz921

Ай бұрын

Since you’re asking a question, the answer is, no, it wasn’t an oversight. Paul has mentioned in previous videos that USB is a very noisy cable.

@ThinkingBetter

Ай бұрын

@@tamstutz921 Actually USB is superior as it allows asynchronous data transfer for optimum digital audio architecture using the DAC’s clock as single clock master for jitter free playback. SPDIF, TOSLink and I2S are all synchronous interfaces where the data flow can yield jitter issues involving PLL. The claim that USB is noisy is not about USB itself but about how older PCs had noisy ground and 5V power rail, potentially ending up in the analog output of the DAC. This has absolutely nothing to do with how USB can perform in a modern well-designed system. Key is that USB can operate with asynchronous audio and that’s better than synchronous.

@tamstutz921

Ай бұрын

@@ThinkingBetter Your argument is with Paul. Write to him.

@bobnot24

Ай бұрын

USB has lots of transfer modes. Synchronous mode is usually used for audio. Still probably good but there is lots of assumptions here. PLL is cool but cannot fix if the jitter is baked in. I would day it depends of DAC implementation.

@ThinkingBetter

Ай бұрын

​@@bobnot24 USB audio has only three audio transfer modes: Synchronous (worst: old-style strict from source to DAC clocking, sample rate is derived from USB clock), adaptive (better: DAC or source adapts to varying sample rate), asynchronous (best: DAC can control timing precisely as single clock master and buffers the audio data adequately).Synchronous is terrible concerning jitter. Asynchronous transfer is much better because it allows optimum single clock mastering running the DAC. SPDIF, TOSLink or I2C all run synchronous potentially yielding jitter issues with PLL. For digital audio you want asynchronous with a single clock master in the DAC. Unfortunately, transports or CD players are designed to be their own clock master yielding the "multi clock master" issue and jitter concern. It's a bit sad, but many streamers are designed to run as clock master and not allow asynchronous USB connection to an external DAC. It involves some complexity to equip a streamer with the ability to be an asynchronous source of a DAC via USB. Also check this video "USB Audio Part 3: What is Asynchronous Audio?".

What does an I2S output plug into? The connector is an HDMI-style connector. I see that. But what's at the other end? I just looked at PS Audio preamps on the website, and I don't see where they have an HDMI-style input. Am I just not seeing it?

@mikerichards324

Ай бұрын

I have the very same question and I’d love to know the answer. I don’t see it either. Hmmmm.

@seandang

Ай бұрын

My experience I usually find i2s output from a source usually a streamer, usually a higher cost streamer. The streamer i2s output to a DAC i2s input.

@steveodian6008

Ай бұрын

The I2S plugs into thier DACs

@curtiscroulet8715

Ай бұрын

@@mikerichards324 It was late at night when I read McGowan's post. I wasn't thinking clearly. OF COURSE -- the streamer feeds to a DAC with I2S input.

What about control signals? What about Ethernet?

USB ??! How come is RCA and AES mentioned but not USB ?

@BuddyGorey

Ай бұрын

Looking for the best signal flow might not include USB. Just spitballin

@Shruko

Ай бұрын

@@BuddyGorey what do you mean ? Since when can you listen to DSD on Coax or AES ? You kidding me ? Chord DAC only use USB as the best implementation

@BuddyGorey

Ай бұрын

@@Shruko I have no idea man. This guy knows a lot more than me, and seems to have some experience. I was suggesting the omission was more likely because it isn’t “the best way to connect a streamer”, re: title, than it was an oversight. You just happen to leave a common comment type, the gripe. I don’t even stream to hifi 😂. Apologies for the stray bullet - I know how serious audiophiles are about the particulars of audio and I did it anyway. Careless Tl;dr You’re probably right!!

@Shruko

Ай бұрын

@@BuddyGoreyyeah its fine but coax and aes are not even close to being best since none can run DSD. Only I2S and USB can play DSD and also high rees files so this clip is dog

@ThinkingBetter

Ай бұрын

@@BuddyGoreyActually USB is superior because it supports asynchronous audio data allowing your DAC to fully control the timing precisely. USB C is the modern superior data interface also for audio. Synchronous interfaces like SPDIF, TOSLink and I2S aren’t ideal because they can potentially yield jitter issues.

And The Guy who Buys Gold Plated Speaker 🔈 Wire Has Got To Have His Head Examined

@alekhidell3644

Ай бұрын

William Carlos Williams?

Man, there is some serious money to be made in this market...

We Can Wire a Entire House without Running Any Cable Anymore From Signal to Power Source To All The Switches No Cable for All Your Entertainment Needs No Cable is Necessary The Technology is Here We Have Got To Move Forward Not Backwards

What is the format that PCM/DSD data is sent over a normal HDMI link? -I know that HDMI will carry an encrypted Dolby True-HD or DTS Master Audio signal in up to 8-channels at 24-bit 192KKHz for a DAC to decode. -As well as the same bitrate in uncompressed PCM -Also 6-Channel SACD DSD-128 Pretty sure it doesn't use the SPDIF back end, but can't confirm... Not that it 'really' matters (other than to know.) No-one is complaining about the audio quality from SACD or BluRay Pure audio over HDMI. If you're concerned about ground loops use a $30 AUD optical fibre HDMI 2.1 cable.

FIRST! Paul, this is a great video!

Let’s See I Need a Low Impedance XLR To a Female RCA To a BNC To a Male Y-Splitter To a Pin Flipper To a C/USB To a 1/4” Mono To A High Definition Video Cable With Phantom Power….This Is All Nonsense We Don’t Need Cable Anymore That Sounds Funny Yet We Don’t Even Need Cable To Get The Ultimate NFL Sports Package The Technology Is Here Yet As Long As We Continue To Buy All This Cabling It Gives The Answer Man a Job

Bluetooth Audio Streaming is Better Than any Balanced or Unbalanced Cable It’s Very Simple Bluetooth Puts Out Over One Million Base-2 Binary Numbers Per.Second….With That Information Who Needs a Cable Balanced or Unbalanced

@davidspendlove5900

Ай бұрын

You’re trolling right ?

I think balanced connection is so overrated. I never heard a difference.

Ladies and Gentlemen Am Getting Lots of Hate On My Comments For Some Strange Reason Yet The Truth Is We Do 😂Not Need To Patch Anything Anymore We Have Moved On I Know Analog To Digital Yes We Are Not Completely There Yet This is My Prognostication It’s Only Tongue In Cheek Insincere Way of Why Are We Asking These Questions Because The Technology Is Here Embrace It I Mean Who Are These Audio Experts Saying We Got To Wash our Vinyl in Pristine Water From a Ice Berg From The Swiss Alps These Guys Are Completely Nuts Let’s All Get Real Stop 🛑 With This Nonsense

just bull s... digital is digital only 1 & 0

We Can Wire a Entire House without Running Any Cable Anymore From Signal to Power Source To All The Switches No Cable for All Your Entertainment Needs No Cable is Necessary The Technology is Here We Have Got To Move Forward Not Backwards