The point of the video is to show one of the many problems that musicians have to face when they adopt only the perspective of the single beat use of the metronome. In the case of this movement, Bernstein understands the discrepancy between the traditional tempo of the fast minuetto and the speed resulting from Beethoven's metronome indication read in single beat. Adopting the whole beat perspective resolves this dilemma and makes all the pieces of the puzzle fall into their place, making a direct and coherent connection between the metronome mark and the movement of the minuet. This gives a solution without the need of alternative and non-backed-up theories such the ones that musicians like Bernstein have to literally invent to explain the unexplainable. Bernstein himself almost got to the solution without realizing it, but unfortunately he made the mistake that many musicians still do today, namely to project on history what they think fast/slow should or should not be, assuming that their preconceived idea is necessarily the same for a man and a musical society existed 200 years ago.

@DismasZelenka

12 күн бұрын

An excellent summary of the points made in the video. But I would have welcomed more solid information on the question of minuet vs scherzo, danced minuet vs minuet in symphonies, suites or sonatas, slow vs fast minuets, and Minuets/Scherzos in Haydn's quartets and in Beethoven's early piano sonatas (MMs by Czerny and Moscheles) and quartets (MMs by Beethoven). As often in musical history, there is not a simple 'problem' that is solvable, but a complex and fascinating set of interrelationships.

@olofstroander7745

12 күн бұрын

Whole beat halves all tempi, not just the speed of this Minuet. So the discrepancy between this tempo and other Minuets is still there, everything is just half as fast.

@surgeeo1406

11 күн бұрын

I enjoy your posts... I hear you're working a lot behind the scenes. I can't wait to hear all that you're recording. The symphonies are taking so long to get here...

I can think of a few reasons why Bernstein would favor the "revolutionary Beethoven" narrative over the "genius within a tradition Beethoven" narrative.

Oh Wim Winters, when shall you come to learn that the tempo indication is “Allegro molto e vivace”, when pretty much all minuets were marked with “Allegretto” or “Tempo di minuetto”? Sorry Wim. Bernstein is only one of many people who don’t agree that music sounds better played half as fast. You cannot expect everyone to agree with you. Trust me, Bernstein know’s what he’s doing.

@vladradek

10 күн бұрын

I agree. Wim seems to disregard the “Allegro molto e vivace” marking, as it's counter to his argument. Also, my instincts tell me that movement is intended to be played fast.

@EwicoCylinder

10 күн бұрын

Bernstein had a big talent, but in classical music he totally was a joke. Non or less his musicals are kinda interesting for their century where Bernstein lived.

@SuperTrubadix

6 күн бұрын

This is exactly why I cannot take him seriously. While I totally believe that he is onto something when demonstrating some Cerny tempi which seem ridiculous and that we seem to miss something in regards to early metronome markings, this kind of behaviour always rings the alarm bell to me: blatantly ignoring the counter argument to your own thesis, even when it sits right under your nose! And furthermore, I have found that most of his cases have more reasonable explanations than half beat metronome markings. The lighter action of earlier pianos is often the reason why old tempi do not work well on modern piano actions.

@DismasZelenka

6 күн бұрын

@@SuperTrubadix Agreed. It is not only the lighter action of earlier pianos, it is also the lighter, more delicate sound, which allows speeds to be faster without blurring than on the louder more sonorous instruments of the latter part of the century.

Czerny tells us in his school of composition that Minuets in Mozarts symphonies were performed "rather quicker" than the corresponding dance tempo. Beethoven took this even further. ("Much quicker"). Bernsteins confusion is understandable, but historically uninformed.

@DismasZelenka

12 күн бұрын

Not only Czerny. Koch's Musikalische Lexicon (1802) in the entry Menuet, says that "For a long time, the minuet melodies, as well as those of other dances, were also used in the so-called suites and partitas. In parts of southern Germany during the middle of the previous century, they also commonly began to appear in symphonies and three- and four-part sonatas, a habit that has been kept and has spread to almost everywhere. However, because these types of minuets are not intended for accompanying dances, both the rhythm of the minuet was accelerated and tempo considerations differed from the original minuet, and they were not tied to a certain number of measures or a similar rhythm; in addition, these minuets were played at a tempo much faster than they could be danced to. Haydn has contributed to their various types in which the minuet now appears in his symphonies and types of sonatas." (The last sentence in German is "In den mannigfaltigen Formen, in welchen die Menuet anjetzt in den Sinfonien und Sonatenarten erscheint, hat vorzüglich Haydn Gelegenheit gegeben und dazu die Muster geliefert." The translation may be wrong.) Bernstein was a conductor/composer, not a musicologist!

We danced the minuet in school and it is very slow and stately, not fast.

Beethoven's immensely popular Septet op.20 *(1795)* had both a Tempo di Menuetto (third movement) and a 3/4 Scherzo: Allegro molto e vivace (fifth movement). Beethoven's metronome mark for the Tempo di menuetto was quarter = 120 MM (so dotted half = 40). For the Scherzo it was dotted half = 126 (so quarter = 378). Doesn't it make sense that in the first symphony *(1801,* but there are sketches from *1795)* the Menuetto (note: not Tempo di menuetto) marked Allegro molto e vivace, and with Beethoven's MM of dotted half = 108 is a Scherzo in all but name? Remember that the 3rd movement in Beethoven's second symphony *(1802)* is Scherzo: Allegro (only allegro, not molto e vivace), with Beethoven's metronome mark dotted half = 100. Was that the first time the 3/4 3rd movement in a symphony was called Scherzo rather than Minuet? Anybody with an hour and a quarter to spare who wants to hear the Septet, in Beethoven's own arrangement for Trio, in 'wholebeat', can enjoy the AuthenticSound video "Beethoven, Trio Opus 38 - Climbing the Olympus with Joy - Historical Tempo Reconstruction Project". But for somebody with less time on their hands, there are several YT videos of Op.38 ranging between about 40 to about 45 minutes.

For heaven's sake: "Allegro molto e vivace" Not a tedious plod.

@AuthenticSound

13 күн бұрын

that's because the It. tempoword is a tempo description relating the speed of the quarter note - I'll make a video on this aspect, it's a good question but not so difficult to understand once you see the whole picture

@ShaunNgKF

12 күн бұрын

@@AuthenticSoundHave you described the term vivace on your channel? Many 18th century sources indicate that it is a slower tempo than allegro. It is an indication that retains the excitement of the piece without the speed. Because Beethoven is using both terms, it seems molto allegro is used only to mean very ‘lively’ and the vivace to remind us to go a notch under allegro. Truly many fast tempos we do these days are probably really prestos, which are sometimes described as fast but not rushed. After all, there is prestissimo to consider.

@AALavdas

12 күн бұрын

@@ShaunNgKF But it is Allegro MOLTO E Vivace. There is no way that the half-speed version can be described by those two terms. And, also, Beethoven was indeed a revolutionary - and, no doubt, the movement would have become very boring indeed, as Bernstein said.

@ShaunNgKF

12 күн бұрын

@@AALavdas Consider for a moment if the words used were Allegro molto e andante or larghetto or any term that we associate with something slower than allegro. Does that change your point of view? Because that is what historical evidence considers a vivace. You might think it is too slow, but a menuet is a menuet. Even Bernstein acknowledges so.

@AALavdas

12 күн бұрын

@@ShaunNgKF I cannot see how, on this planet, this slow and rather boring movement can be described as lively ("vivace"). It is,most of all, the character of the piece that makes it completely inappropriate as a "real" minuet - and the term "vivace" just confirms this.

At 10:05 on you mention the early 18th century minuet and say it is different from the late 18th century minuet, which is "the faster minuet that became the Scherzo de Waltz, where you have more like one strong beat to the bar". But at 10:14 you just say "The three quarter beat minuet, that's the version we talk about here." Why? Why not talk about the faster, one strong beat to the bar, minuet? 11:24. Sorry, you are misinterpreting Riemann. He is saying that by "Tempo di minuetto" Beethoven means a somewhat more moderate movement, i.e. the old 3 beats in the bar minuet. But in Symphony 1 Beethoven wrote Menuetto: allegro molto e vivace, NOT Tempo di minuetto. So he is taking Haydn's faster more 'humorous' (schnellere, lustigern, launigern) minuet a stage further towards what in his 2nd symphony became Scherzo. ADD: An influential article by William Malloch "Towards a "new" [old] minuet" was published in 1985 in the magazine Opus. It was criticized by Frederick Newman in Historical Performance 1991, and Malloch answered in Early Music 1993 with "The minuets of Mozart and Haydn: Goblins or Elephants". The text of this last article is readable online (in thefreelibrary . com). All this unfortunately came out too late for Bernstein to take note. For anybody really interested in the question, without pre-conceived ideas of what a minuet is, these articles are a useful starting point.

You fail to understand the whole intention: Beethoven the term “minuet” is the nominal title of the 3rd movement in the symphony. His musical idea is clearly pointed in the Italian tempo indication and then later in his added metronome mark. Clearly the intention is of a fast tempo and not a real minuet. When Beethoven wanted a minuet in the 8th symphony, he wrote “tempo di minuetto” as a tempo indication and the metronome mark supports it (quarter = 126), and in a 3/4 can’t count it in a double beat.

@AuthenticSound

13 күн бұрын

that's actually not true, there was a clear distinction between the two , as also Riemann (among others) clearly shows. Btw- the MM in a ternaire time signature is very easily deductible from a full cycle. That is not even an issue.

I doubt that Mr W. can find even one source that says that Allegro molto e vivace is a "moderate" tempo. So whole beat doesn't "solve" anything, because the conflct is between the tempo indication and the title Minuetto. The scherzo of the 9th (Molto vivace) has dotted quarter = 116, so this Minuetto is really - a scherzo. Just like Bernstein says.

@AuthenticSound

13 күн бұрын

O, that is easy to answer, I exactly did explain in the video but left that passage out - it's very easy to explain - you relate the pulse (tempo) to the quarter note - the allegro molto is not a "feeling" nor a "character" (there were attempts to convert this but it didn't succeed) and so when you tap the speed of the quarter notes in the correct tempo they go fast- compared to the normal tempo ordinario. SO there is your answer, Mr. O :-)

@DismasZelenka

13 күн бұрын

Exactly. In dancing, there were both slower minuets and faster minuets (and the speeds varied from place to place). Mozart distinguished between slow and fast minuets. The slower minuets have notes smaller than an eighth; faster ones have eighths, quarters, and dotted halves. There are several eighteenth century sources saying that when a minuet wasn't being danced to - when it was in a symphony or quartet or suite or sonata - it was taken faster than the dance pace. There was an evolution from minuet to scherzo that can be traced in Haydn. This Beethoven 'minuet' is the not so missing link.

@olofstroander7745

13 күн бұрын

Whole beat doesn't change the relation between this tempo and a more moderate Minuetto, or between this metronome mark and that of the 9th symphony scherzo (pretty close). When you halve all tempi, it's stil the same, right? And by the way, it's Mr S. not Mr O :)

"I fixed your Kobyashi Maru test", " That's not how it works"

Hi Wim, you know how much I love the channel and I'll definitely start by saying I think the whole beat interpretation is the correct one for the metronome marks here but, I would actually have to disagree with the idea that the metronome mark represents a minuet tempi. From the statistical analysis I've done on thousands of 19th century metronome marks I've managed to find a few things regarding minuets and scherzi. Minuet allegrettos are typically around minim (note dotted minim) = 80. Hummel gives 88 for the minim in mozart's 41st symphony, philippe lamoury gives 1/4 note = 176 for string quartet 22 (off the top of my head), Moscheles gives 1/4 = 160 for the minuet in piano sonata no.4, and thomas young's tempo table would imply 1/2 note = 82.5. And the from other research the ratio between allegretto and molto allegro is roughly 1.6. So, this would all lead to a molto allegro minuet tempo of about dotted minim = 88. And so 108 is roughly 2 degrees of quickness (as I've currently discovered) faster than it should be and I'm quite a strong believer in that sort of thing. However, the allegretto tempo for a Scherzo is around dotted minim = 76. (For example in the moonlight sonata czerny give the 2nd movement dotted minim = 76 and indeed describes it as a scherzo despite everyone thinking it looks and sounds like a minuet). And then from this position you'd have dotted minim = 126 - 132 for a molto allegro scherzi. For example Czerny's own scherzi marked presto (very similar to a molto allegro) indeed have 120 to 132 for the dotted minim. There are a lot of other parameters I need to work on for this to be more refined cos it's still a bit up in the air but, I would be more inclined to think this metronome mark is actually that of a scherzo and not a minuet. And that still yields true to my mind when the tempo in whole beat is actually the correct one.

@AuthenticSound

13 күн бұрын

You cannot compare "minuets" with "minuets" or scherzi with scherzi, even within those formats you have differences of notation (use of faster/slower note values) and they all affect the tempo choice. And this is definitely a faster menuet seen the notation, hence the allegro molto (but starting from the basic minuet tempo). But I get your point!

How can you do all this discussion and not mention the “Allegro molto e vivace” information?

Wim, the link for the other Bernstein video did not appear….another great one though! 🙂❤🙏🏼⭐🌺

The minuet is marked "Allegro molto e vivace" Does this not descriptively correspond more to the half-beat interpretation than to the whole-beat interpretation? Why not write something like "Allegretto grazioso" if the whole-beat interpretation is correct? I suspect that Bernstein is factoring in the verbal instructions as a piece of evidence for the faster interpretation. Incidentally, what verbal instructions did Beethoven typically use for minuets? Could one do a comparative analysis across all his minuets? Was this minuet unusual?

@AuthenticSound

13 күн бұрын

that's because the It. tempoword is a tempo description relating the speed of the quarter note - I'll make a video on this aspect, it's a good question but not difficult to understand once you see the whole picture

@aidengregg

13 күн бұрын

@@AuthenticSound So. tempo instructions here do not relate to the intended character of the sound, but only to the strict speed of a particular fraction of the measure? Well, that would surprise me--that argument seems to privilege musical syntax over semantics--but I'll be happy to hear the case you make.

Why maintain that the appellation 'minuet' trumps 'Allegro Molto e Vivace?' Also your research can't account for half tempo adagios and largos, which would render them completely static and inert.

Thank you for posting this but I am not convinced by your argument here. As a 21st century listener, I feel the movement works as a Scherzo. What is missing in your discussion is evidence about how the movement was performed in Beethoven's day and subsequently - by Beethoven, by his successors in the 19th, 20th and 21st centuries - as shown in contemporary musical criticism. What is also missing is a review of recordings going back to the earliest ones to see if conductors were generally in agreement as to whether they were playing what seems to be a Scherzo - rather than a stately Minuet - and what was the range of tempi they brought to this movement. I love stately Minuets but I don't think Beethoven did stately minuets as a rule. I would like to see the evidence of how performers of this symphony differed in their presentations of this work in performance.

A list of Haydn's and Mozart's instrumental minuets shows that they were either the slower type, usually tempo di menuetto or just menuetto, or the faster type, usually menuetto allegretto, moderato, or (less often) allegro. The slower type of minuet is felt as 3 in a bar, the faster type as 1 in a bar. Only one before Beethoven is marked allegro molto, in Haydn's Surprise symphony. So Beethoven's Allegro molto e vivace is moving the speed of the faster type of minuet up to a higher level - one that makes it a scherzo in all but name. Bernstein'a slow demonstration, and the performance of the 4-hand Czerny transcription by Winters and Sanna, are at the speed of the slow minuet, 3 in a bar.

You are just overlooking the fact that Bernstein also said it was 'very boring indeed' when played slower. I actually think he played the movement opening a little fast than is typical. There is no minuet tempo since it is just a dance form being dance music. Beethoven has specific tempo marking outside of that. Menuetto could just mean in a 'dancing' style and nothing more where emphasis is on the first beat in 3/4. If there was anything inventive, it was that Beethoven really wanted people to pick up the dancing pace. lol

@AuthenticSound

13 күн бұрын

Well, that is not what Riemann (and frankly any 19th or 20 or 21st c. author) wrote about the Menuet. How Bernstein labeled the slower movement is not important and seen the fact he wanted to defend his faster tempo not surprisingly.

@AuthenticSound

13 күн бұрын

What you write is factually not correct- a "minuet' doesn't simply indicate "a dance movement", it indicates a minuet. And a 'dancing pace' can still vary a lot....luckily

I think calling early beethoven a revolutionary isnt that hard considering the first few piano sonatas

Good luck playing "Szene am Bach" at half pace.

@AuthenticSound

7 күн бұрын

news; we did (and it was a great experience) - all available now on CD - just finished first shipment to over 30 countries :-)

I am not a musician, but I’m trying to learn after 65 years of age. I think you’re correct, but when did the problems start? There has to have been a critic that started saying that a concert piece was played too fast, and there should be a pattern, n’est-ce pas?

How can you motivate the "allegro molto e vivace" ? thank you (I admire your channel in anyway)

@AuthenticSound

13 күн бұрын

that's because the It. tempoword is a tempo description relating the speed of the quarter note - I'll make a video on this aspect, it's a good question but not so difficult to understand once you see the whole picture

Lenny, Lenny, Lenny: There is none so blind as he who will not see! (rough misquote of the old Proverb) But if the shoe fits, WEAR IT!

But is it not simpler to assume that the indication 'Minuet' refers to the CHARACTER and not to the TEMPO? The tempo then is what Beethoven indicated. It doesn't seem so abstruse...

@AuthenticSound

13 күн бұрын

We can assume what we want but there was a practice as well which says that a minuet is a minuet. It's not harder than this

It would have been much simpler if composers used properly this simple sign: =. = means equal, the same. You can't have more basic math and logic than that. If a quarter note = 100 on the metronome, it should mean that 100 = (equals) a quarter note and something else...

@AuthenticSound

13 күн бұрын

which they in fact did - the issue is not the question mark but the correct understanding of how they viewed the note value - explained in fact in the Maelzel Directions - each tick is part of the intended time (the tempo, the metronome mark)

@scottpilgrim5638

9 күн бұрын

@@AuthenticSound Wim, you have been avoiding to respond to the other description of the metronome that Maelzel gave in It's also in the September 1821 issue of the Allgemeine musikalische Zeitung. Maelzel writes "Achtzig halbe Noten nenne ich geschwind, weil im 4/4 Tackte 40 Takte auf eine Minute fielen." To translate, I call half note 80 fast because in a 4/4 bar, 40 bars fell in one minute. Others have brought up this point yet you haven't responded. In your "Admitting defeat" video, you seem to accept that description is of single beat yet you don't mention that the creator of the metronome himself said that.

@DismasZelenka

8 күн бұрын

@@AuthenticSound If the definition of 'intended time' is "the tempo, the metronome mark", then it cannot also be the note value - say a crotchet (quarter). The tempo is the speed of more than one crotchet (a single crotchet is stationary), and the metronome mark is the formula for the tempo: crotchet = 100 [on the scale of] M[aelzel's] M[etronome], i.e. 100 crotchets each at one tick of the metronome, thus 100 crotchets per minute.

@olofstroander7745

8 күн бұрын

@@DismasZelenka Yes, a "part" of a tempo is a beat of the pulse. Each pulsebeat gets a SINGEL tick, not two. Very simple.

2:57 he didn’t hear anything

@AuthenticSound

13 күн бұрын

at the time of the premiere of the 5th / 6th symphonies his hearing was not ok, but he was far from deaf. Even the 7th and 8th, Beethoven's conducting was still ok.

I have long not been a fan of Bernstein's conducting (or piano playing, for that matter). He was spoiled by fame. He wasn't the worst but some of his performances are incredible examples of self-indulgence. If he were here today I can't see him adopting whole-beat tempos except in many slow movements.