A couple of the new Battletech players at my local store found about LAMs recently and asked me about them. As a kid playing Battletech I fell into the "oh cool they're Veritechs!" trap. We played 1 game with them and swore we'd never use them again. I jump 15 hexes, and you can't shoot me. I fire 1 medium laser. Repeat "LAMs are a great way to turn a nice fun game of Battletech into getting punched in the face" You nailed it, they are an artifact from the early anime inspired days of Btech. They don't have a place in modern Battletech and I'm glad they were effectively retcon'd out.

@orionthanathos8861

22 күн бұрын

If you count the lawsuits, you will know why LAM sucks.

@KageRyuu6

22 күн бұрын

Fun fact, LAM's count as Aircraft while using WIGE movement meaning not only do you get the +1 from Cluster LBX but also the +2 from Flak Attacks as well, still a slog but far from invincible, much like Stealth Armor VTOLs, or Dug-In Camo/IR Field Gun Squads, specific tools for exceptionally specialized units.

@WardenWolf

22 күн бұрын

Since almost no one runs with 4/5 pilots anymore, and 2/3 is very common, LAMs aren't that big a deal anymore. The problem was that, canonically, 4/5 was the standard for Inner Sphere pilots and 3/4 was the standard for Clan pilots. This turned games into a slog. Most people don't want a 2v2 to take 2 days, so they bump the pilots up to at 2/3 or at least 3/4. I've killed a few LAMs in my time; had a friend who used to love them. Between modern weapons, piloting skills, and simply everyone focus-firing the damn things, they wound up not being that scary anymore. He sent one through my formation, and promptly lost it; Gauss Rifle needed a 12 to hit, and I rolled a 12. Went through the left rear torso, destroying it and taking the wing off. It then proceeded to crash into the back of my Madcat and kill it. The rest of his LAMs never got close enough to worry me after that. The previous game, my Madcat (represented by the same mini) had met an equally-random fate. It was being dive-bombed by a 95-ton aerospace fighter. My Turkina returned fire. Two critical hits, control surfaces. It did not pull out of its dive. It slammed into the Madcat at full power, and the fighter Stackpoled (we applied the full center torso rule to the fighter since, obviously). We both had a good laugh about that. We just wrote them off, knowing they were both dead, and started rolling damage from the explosion to surrounding mechs. After two games in a row where that mini died from something randomly falling out of the sky onto it, I decided to retire it.

@Elrigger

22 күн бұрын

I'll respect your opinion. But I disagree. I've never had issues with the gameplay of having an LAM in a game.

@MOrab46019

22 күн бұрын

I have the first set of rules. If you use them as bombers that is a perfect time to nail them. The old rules allow you to hit with a -4 to hit for being the target. If you are using them as staffing fighter you could hit again with -4. Been awhile since I looked at the older Aerotech rules. 1985 ones.

Never half-ass two things. Whole ass one thing. -ancient Terran proverb

@BoisegangGaming

22 күн бұрын

Or at least quarter-ass four things.

@MattHopperAster

22 күн бұрын

@@BoisegangGaming those are Protomechs and Quadvees

@R17inator

21 күн бұрын

Shame that those Koprulu Sector hillbillies who dare to call themselves _Terrans_ forgot that memo when they made the Siege "Tank" and the Viking.

Clearly, Big Red is a man of Protoculture.

@BigRed40TECH

22 күн бұрын

I see what you did there. lol

@MalakianM2S

16 күн бұрын

Imagine if they got the flying Marauder in the game... the horror... the horror...

Dire Wolf LAM.

@fix0the0spade

22 күн бұрын

Elemental LAM, strap that Toad to an Arrow IV.

@IRateVideosInTheComments

22 күн бұрын

Atlas LAM

@redasylum

22 күн бұрын

Anni LAM - Oh lawds he commin

@Soulfruit260

22 күн бұрын

Charger LAM

@chuckbuck5002

22 күн бұрын

@@redasylumJust at a zeppelins with ac-2’s lol

You can type as many words as you wish, but I cannot hear you over my Wasp LAM’s jet engines.

@johannesbowers7467

21 күн бұрын

Helllz yeah!

@NodDisciple1

20 күн бұрын

Or my WoBBie Isorla.

"Much beloved company: harmony gold" I died

@rahjar

22 күн бұрын

Going back to my childhood, Robotech was formative(English isn't my first language, and I can be said to have learned English trying to figure out Rick and Lisa), but by the time Battletech came around, even when faced with the RFL-3N, I knew it wasn't a Destroid Defender... I totally support you in saying: these two things are better when appreciated apart, not everything is better "blended together", etc...

@observationsfromthebunker9639

22 күн бұрын

"Ach!! Ssssss!! We hates it, my Precious, we hates it!!"

@GhostBear3067

22 күн бұрын

FUCK HARMONY GOLD!!! Sorry, reflex action.

@coreytaylor3633

21 күн бұрын

the burns were coming thick and fast

@NuclearFalcon146

21 күн бұрын

@@GhostBear3067 FUCK HARMONY GOLD!

"I had a blue control deck" To know evil, you must do evil. I can't judge, I had a warp world deck.

@coreytaylor3633

21 күн бұрын

I had a future sight Linessa bounce deck that my mate LOOOVED 😆 (I'm a bad man...)

@b.s.864

21 күн бұрын

Dream Thrushes & Seasingers. Called it 'MINE'

@stuarttarsey6094

13 күн бұрын

Blue control decks were bad to play against but boring to play. Black/White control was more fun as you forced your opponent to hurt themselves. 😈

Meanwhile me: Prefers the old lore that described battlemechs as nimble beasts that could have the articulation to safely pick up a person and brand them with a hot ppc barrel without killing them (thanks early novels and house kurita) Edit: Still going to like though.

@DIEGhostfish

22 күн бұрын

@@tommydude6735 Yeah, nechs going prone and climbing was cool.

@observationsfromthebunker9639

22 күн бұрын

A mech can still pick up a small object. It's a Piloting check, after all. But, skill and precision count! 😮

@calebharris292

22 күн бұрын

It could certainly vary, depending on type of mech, pilot skill, neuro helmet compatibility, maintenance, and quality of replacement parts. Like a JLG product (forklift, scissor lift, MEWP) is going to be more finnicky then something from Genie or the sort.

@Xfighter000

22 күн бұрын

They still are that way

@fix0the0spade

22 күн бұрын

I've never liked the Rock'em Sock'em animation style in the games. Even if it's a purely practical/technical consideration it's never looked right in motion. It's always been my head canon that mech's movement is based on their pilot's sense of balance and varies from pilot to pilot. Except for Atlases, they always do the chad walk like BT from Titanfall, stomp stomp stomp.

Ah, Clearly red wanted to be rid of this so much he couldn't wait for saturday.

@BigRed40TECH

22 күн бұрын

Just means it's in the rear-view mirror now.

@guitarhausdoesntknowwhatac3285

22 күн бұрын

@@BigRed40TECH Because you threw it out the window like a trucker bomb?

I never really took a close look at LAMs because as you mentioned, I'd heard they weren't very good. Kinda funny that using them to their full effectiveness essentially requires that the pilot have the piloting skills of an anime protagonist though. Maybe LAMs have a place in the California Nebula lol.

Wow, Red. I can't believe you love LAMs so much. I agree with this video, LAMs should be made again, and in plastic.

@BigRed40TECH

22 күн бұрын

:|

@karl-erikvik3400

22 күн бұрын

​@@BigRed40TECHLAM campaign pwease :3

@ashtiboy

22 күн бұрын

catalest games has a way to do that but mega mek can do that for you so you can laern how the rules form them work. just google mega mek and have fun with it.

@fix0the0spade

22 күн бұрын

Cast them in metal, then they'll at least have utility as throwing stars.

@Jdmitchell308

22 күн бұрын

Iron wind metals ​@@fix0the0spade

You give me no choice but to take all of my glorious stash of protoculture and go home! ☝️🤪👈

From a world-building perspective, I like LAMs because they are a great example of Star League technological spectacle, as well as a in-universe example of story-telling deconstruction of the idea that any and all 'LosTech' is actually practical. Plus I simply like Battletech having the option for these things to be made and exist, even if it is only an opportunity for an Industrialists and wannabe LAM Pilots to perform epic (and fatal) examples of being 'Leeroy Jenkins'. Plus, it is also great world-building for people to want the things as art pieces /+/ playthings as well...

@Real_Iron_Smith

22 күн бұрын

I agree with this. I left a comment noting that the 25 ton (or 20 ton with less hardware) F-35C can transform from VTOL mode to full standard fighter jet mode in a short amount of time and is armed with comprable weaponry to a Stinger or other light mechs from BT, and it exists today. It would take very little technological development to allow an arrogant, spectacle-oriented entity like the Star League to make LAMS.

@ashtiboy

22 күн бұрын

hey for the peaole that wat to stop lam chesse just use tag and semi gided lrm ammo that when fired agest taged targets ingores all target modfiers movment and tereain peltalys and wacth thsoe lams fall out of the sky.

@psychocomytic9778

22 күн бұрын

For world building it is great to remind people that a mech is not the only battlefield unit available. Sure pretty much any ASF of the same weight can outfight a LAM but that isn't the point. Like the array of machineguns or small lasers found on mechs that we can use for crit seeking, but that isn't really the point of those anti infantry weapons.

You brought up starscream in the end. Which I found funny because all throughout the video, I was thinking "people just wanna be starscream from the Bay movies". Also, playing a control deck in a ttcg?! You absolute monster! Let me just flood the board with bears you meany!

@BigRed40TECH

22 күн бұрын

No. You shall not play one card :P

'LAMs are blue control' is not the argument I expected, but a very effective one nonetheless.

I had always thought LAMs were silly fun and we need more fun things in the world. I never knew just how badly unbalanced LAMs were.

Man says he doesn't like making 'negative videos', then drops the hottest diss tracks on Clan Wolf and LAMs 🔥

@BigRed40TECH

22 күн бұрын

Yea, out of 300+ videos, there are like... 2 like this. lol

@ravenbaker155

22 күн бұрын

But they are some of my favorites

@DoubleWhammy

22 күн бұрын

Shitting on clanners is the civic duty of every spheroid.

@ravenbaker155

22 күн бұрын

@@DoubleWhammy preach on

@misterbeeps

22 күн бұрын

@@DoubleWhammy wow. Dezgra.

Holy crap, you weren't kidding. They actually MADE an urbie LAM product... I genuinely never thought I'd see the day...

Clearly we need to go back to when it was "Battledroids". Wait, no, that's even worse. Early Battletech literally try to exist without legal troubles challenge level: impossible. It really is a miracle Battletech survived the 80s.

@gregdomenico1891

22 күн бұрын

80's Battletech really didn't have many problems with HG. HG considered BT to be a niche Table Top game without the mass appeal that they had. When FASA branched out into video games, and they became popular, that's when HG felt threatened, and the Lawsuits started.

@renegadeleader1

21 күн бұрын

​@@gregdomenico1891 That isn't true. When FASA sued Playmates in 1994/95 over the "heavy assault e-frame" that was based on the madcat/timberwolf Harmony Gold was brought in as a material witness and it was revealed that HG had been sending cease and desist letters since pretty much 1984 that FASA had completely ignored confident in their assumption that Twentieth Century Imports had given them exclusive rights to the Macross designs. When pressed on this FASA was unable to provide any evidence the TCI deal was legitimate which it never was to begin with then tried to claim HG had abandoned the Macross property which also had no basis in reality. Long story short FASA screwed itself when it trusted TCI, a company whose only operations consisted of buying unsold backlogs of old model kits from warehouses in Japan then reselling them to specialty shops in the US.

@b.s.864

21 күн бұрын

@@gregdomenico1891 Of course there WAS a reason they had to change the name from Battledroids if you recall.

21 күн бұрын

@@gregdomenico1891 Especially when Robotech died off and the attempted 2000's reboot failed miserably, tends to happen when you just rehash the same BS over and over again. It was ALWAYS "Oh joy another Robotech show, let me guess the last aliens get beaten, new ones show up immediately to be a new enemy, then they get beaten and another alien group show up...." rinse and repeat to absolute lameness and stupidity. Maybe if they spent less on suing people and actually spent it on hiring decent writers they might not of needed to feel threatened.

@zeecassel325

21 күн бұрын

Its what you get when your lawsuits are financed by Sony. HG and Sony are two of the worst companies regarding copyright to ever play the game. Just ridiculously litigious as a strategy of destroying competition.

I still think it was a missed opportunity FASA didn't make a LAM called the shepherd...

Ah, yes. The Squats of Battletech.

@nexusofice9135

11 күн бұрын

I miss my Space Dwarves.....

I find LAMs interesting, and I'm okay with them being more of an older tech that ended up hitting a deadend due to tech constraints and falling out of production.

@Real_Iron_Smith

22 күн бұрын

Same. Star League spectacle mechs that never survived practical warfare.

@miasma19

22 күн бұрын

In the current battletech lore, what if' LAMs were transformed only on the ground. Realism and practical. No quick transformation mid jump-to-flight. Idk just my 2 cents

@Wastelandman7000

21 күн бұрын

And maintenance. Can you imagine having to troubleshoot those bastards? They'd wind up being like the Panther, an interesting design in theory that was in a work bay most of the time.

@Wastelandman7000

21 күн бұрын

@@miasma19 My thinking would be more VTOLs with legs. That is they would be able to walk and do pop up attacks like a heli. But, they wouldn't be able to fly long distances at high speed or hold positions on their own because they would be too lightly armored. They would be more like lite air cushion AFVs designed to hover on the flanks and attack supply dumps. There to harass not overwhelm. That would make game balancing issues better.

@JefferyCuddletrousers

21 күн бұрын

Bimodal LAM were a good opportunity for variant rules, sadly wasted. No Airmech mode, but able to operate without needing a Dropship to land, swapping out the Airmech mode for lighter conversion gear would let the Bi LAM perform better as a Mech or LAM without being broken.

Judging by this video it's clear, we need LAMS to return to Battletech.

@BigRed40TECH

22 күн бұрын

XD

LAM Airmech rules used to be cool, VTOL Movement, 3x Jumping. The Defense to it is an ASF, LAM, or Flak Artillery. So to balance the game your opponent would need one of those.

@Chris_Sizemore

22 күн бұрын

Any ground based unit is at a huge disadvantage against LAMS and Aerospace. The rules for both are just broken and nothing in the last 30 years has really addressed this.

@psychocomytic9778

22 күн бұрын

It's just mixed unit warfare, jeez. Air units are good against ground units unless you employ flak, this has been common knowledge for near 100 years.

@NegTharayas16

22 күн бұрын

Right, but rare units in BT. LAM and aero are battalion or regiment level assets, which would also have respective counters, whereas BT is more commonly fought on the lance or company level, which would not have the appropriate counters.

@MOrab46019

22 күн бұрын

I hate the new rules. Just made it harder. The old rules told you range and what was needed to hit if the fighter was going for a strafing run. Also what a mech outside needed. It also taught the importance in having your own air cover

I've said before how much I enjoy LAMs, so I won't stress that point. I think LAMs are in a good place in the setting. They're like bouillon. There's just a little bit here and there for flavor and in fact, we shouldn't be adding much more as it is. Because as we know, too much bouillon just makes things salty. Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm hungry and I've just decided to name my Shadowhawk SHD-2X "Bouillon".

@guitarhausdoesntknowwhatac3285

22 күн бұрын

They're objectively broken.

I still love LAMs - they are the epitome of what Star League was, and loved the aesthetic :) I had experience with Battletech before Macross / Robotech, so it never felt weird to me. LAMs have had issues with rules with the pendulum swinging both ways over time, but I think there is a way to find a happy medium and do hope to see a resurgence of them when the new Aerotech (eventually) comes out. Long live the LAM !!!

@Eserchie

21 күн бұрын

Honestly, the best and simplest fix to stop the brokenness would just be to change MP in Airmech mode to 2x instead of 3x. In ASF mode they already get chewed up by actual ASF, in Mech mode they suck compared to normal mechs, in Airmech mode they... match or outspeed VTOLs and WiGE, while still having Mech durability rather than speedster fragility. Make them slower than these and at the same time cut the TMM due to reduced speed, and the Airmech now gets threatened by them. (I've always found conventional fighters, Flak, Hovercraft and VTOLs a significant threat to a LAM even under rules as written, admittedly only due to relative costs/numbers) Terrain avoidance also becomes harder due to reduced MP making climbing and hovering much more costly. Still does nothing for the complexity problem/number of books, or the problem of it never being worth using mech mode. ASF mode remains useful for arrival, and in theory for strafing/strike attacks once there are no opposing Aero units (but, honestly, if you have complete air superiority, you have already won)

Way back in the 80s, I beg my father to buy the BattleTech box set.I thought it was a RoboTech game.I was not happy when I found out it wasn't but I read the rules and I especially read over and over the border of the rule book and all that cool history and I loved it when I got AroTech I read the rules that had for the lambs and realized they did not need to exist in the game.They were garbage and I still feel much the same today but if I was living in that world, I would definitely want the land air Mac just simply for the halfway mode to use against my enemies.But on the table top I would never want to face that or put that on the table To use against an opponent

They tried to turn a Mech into an aircraft what they should have done is to turn an aircraft into a Mech

@rmcdudmk212

22 күн бұрын

Torso mounted cockpit, partial wings and jump jets. it's an Air-Mech mode LAM on the cheap. 👍

I've no greater gamer moment than finding one in the last cache while playing Crecent Hawk's Inception. Nearly 40 years I've been chasing that high.

My favorite game was escorting my younger brother up the hill in a king of the hill grand melee, to get him in a LAM. We were the youngest players and no one took us seriously until it was way too late. While I started my last turn with no armor and no criticals; my brother went on to take out several damaged units before succumbing to cross-fire.

To the best of my knowledge, you can buy 80 Savannah Masters for the price of one Pheonix Hawk LAM; so, if you're bringing a LAM, well...

Red is the Indiana Jones of Battletech. IT BELONGS IN A MUSEUM!!

I love Macross and Robotech, and with all due respect to Battletech, but when I want to play a game in this style, I"ll play a game that focuses on anime style units, like Mekton Zeta.

@BigRed40TECH

22 күн бұрын

Exactly.

@observationsfromthebunker9639

22 күн бұрын

Mekton Zeta is the way to go for proper mecha anime fun! 👌 Not that it stopped a couple of us from trying to adapt TRO 3025 via Mekton II rules back in the day. 😅

@NuclearFalcon146

21 күн бұрын

Macross and Robotech tabletop games exist.

@rcgunner7086

21 күн бұрын

@@NuclearFalcon146 For all the hate it gets, Robotech RPG Tactics is a great little game. I personally love the thing.

@observationsfromthebunker9639

21 күн бұрын

@@rcgunner7086 That is a good game. It deserved a better fate.

Oh god I thought you were going to play the full song at the end! The horror that caused, and the relief when you didn’t. Good video summarising the issues.

@BigRed40TECH

22 күн бұрын

Thanks Darren! lol

Me at 0:00 😀"Well, I just had an extra hard day at work. I am exhausted but grateful for the opportunity to watch a new Big Red video and maybe relax a little." Me at 1:45 😡"THAT'S ENOUGH INTERNET FOR TODAY"

@BigRed40TECH

22 күн бұрын

BuT i DiD iT fOr U BeEpS!

I get the sneaking feeling they didn't try balancing anything until about the FedCom Civil War. Between how broken the early stuff is (LAMs, hovercraft spam, etc) and the 3050 stuff having no balance at all when it came to Clan tech..

@titanfallgamerwithnotitanf8187

22 күн бұрын

Aren't they balanced by BV and C-bill cost?

@DIEGhostfish

22 күн бұрын

@@gwotkid8314 The rules they have now are already an attempted nerf, the partial wige limit was replacing something way worse.

@asimplenobody7797

22 күн бұрын

Technically yes, practically no. It's a similar idea to Savannah spam, Savannah's are cheap, fast enough that they are hard to hit, and strong enough to break through rear armor eventually. LAM's occupy a similar niche, as outlined by Red, that they can be an absolute pain to deal with. Spending 3-5k BV on a unit that effectively teleports behind people and generates massive hit penalties to the opponent's for doing so can result in a unit the opponent has to deal with, but might not have the tools to do so, and even if you did a +7 to hit means you have your work cut out for you.

@lichlord267

22 күн бұрын

@@gwotkid8314 This. I think this is why i get a little annoyed with vids like this. Now, I tend to agree with Reds takes more often than not. But his talks on stuff like quads and LAMS feel...idk, grognardy? While BT has had relatively fewer overt retcons than other setting (looking at you 40k), but they do occur. Retcons just tend to be more subtle (newer material may just not mention it for instance). and rebalancing is possible, so bemoaning balance, while understandable, feels silly. the immersion part also kinda feels funny to me. Alot of novels show mechs to be pretty dexterous and capable of fluid motions like emoting and handstands (if your a really good pilot). if anything, BT makes a lot of Anime mech feel more plausible. i understand the stance, I just cant agree with it. I like more variety, and it makes sense for a bunch of space nations (who are, mind you, in a state of constant hot and cold war) to be innovating and seeking advantages wherever possible. that said, I'm a huge anime and mecha fan, so that colors my views as well, the more mechs the better I say.

@weinerp0wer

22 күн бұрын

I really like the idea of LAMs. Their place in the SLDF royal units as a technological marvel of military engineering; and becoming 'lostech' during the succession wars was a positive addition to the lore of battletech, imo. But they really do need some good counters to them. Maybe the anti-aircraft targeting quirk on the Rifleman for example gets a big boost to targeting LAMs in airmech mode. Or rules that reflect how difficult they are to operate in airmech mode and/or how a super complex machine is prone to catastrophic failure if one element of it is comprised. If a pilot had to make a PSR for every hit they take to avoid loosing control and crashing... I don't know. The LAMs rule set right now is broken, but I believe completely removing them from the setting is a net loss for the hobby.

What we really need is an Urbie that has helicopter blades pop out of the head, Inspector Gadget style.

I like LAMs but I agree their rules are bad. I have young cousins who I teach to play Battletech (with simplified rules) and we use houseruled LAMs because it is cool for them to have mech that can become airplane.

MMMAAAAACCCUUURRROOOOSSSS

@Blackwolf302

22 күн бұрын

I can hear this, loud and proud.

@energyfitness5116

11 күн бұрын

Lounge singer voice active

I love that Ace Combat 7 gameplay was being for this video.the fact that my head was also playing Liberation of Gracemaira while the video was playing was hilarious.

@mill2712

22 күн бұрын

Imagine being in a mech and you hear someone called (Three Strikes) is up above you.

Well damn. Was just getting by work and didn't expect this. Very nice!

Robotech was my gateway drug to Battletech way back in 1989, and I've never looked back. Their tactical flexibility would make LAMs the apex predator of the setting, even with all their handicaps in the rules...but absolutely agree with you that they suck the fun out of the game. Although that didn't stop me from ordering an Urbie LAM, which may or may not get painted up like Skull 1.

Gonna have to disagree on them not fitting the setting. The ones that fully transform are a bit silly, but all the standard LAMs aren't mechs with wings, they're VTOL jets that can walk.

But Red, what shall we do with all this mint jelly? 😂

@BigRed40TECH

22 күн бұрын

O.O

For a video about hating on LAMs, that U.N.Spacy LAMs illustration are fire tho.

@BigRed40TECH

22 күн бұрын

Macross on its own ain't the problem XD

From a game perspective I agree that they are not a very good fit for modern BT but they're fun anyway, if highly game breaking. However in lore in I absolutely adore them

It's not the LAM, but the rules. I loved BattleTech, wrote for FASA, but the one thing that the game suffers from is rules bloat across the whole setting.

Nice Macross Valkyrie thumbnail!

Back in the day, the main reason we didn't use LAMs wasn't because we didn't like the idea of them (most of us were already Robotech fans) - but because there were NO RULES for them. I've got the original box and the Citytech box. No LAM rules. I've got the original Mechwarrior book. No LAM rules. You had to get your hands on Aerotech (which you had to special order at our "local" game store, because they didn't stock the actual box) to find any LAM rules - and, as you say, they were completely broken - LAMs were impossible to hit. But, I, personally don't like how the video games portray mechs as these stiff things that clomp along with their arms, shoulders, and elbows locked so that they don't even swing their arms to counter balance (because it was too hard to animate that fluid a movement). I thought the whole point to mechs that require NEUROHELMETS to pilot is because it made them nimble and even graceful when they moved - why else would a trippable, 18 meter tall target be able to outmaneuver and out fight smaller (that means harder-to-hit) just as fast and as heavily armed and armored tanks (which, even in the advanced rules, don't automatically get a "low profile" quirk even though they're far lower profile than the lowest profile mechs). You were supposed to be able to recognize the pilot of a mech because the mech's posture and body language mimicked the pilot's. Sure, they're not gundams - vehicles for which "gravity" is a silly, meaningless term - but they're not supposed to be these lumbering land-sloths that take a twenty second movement cycle to draw back a fist and throw a punch, either.

Be safe Red, you have unleashed the cult of the LAM and their dark and strange powers.

Okay,I can see your logic. I still like the lam, but I probably won't run a lam any time soon. We play the game to have fun (not to screw our opponents, usually).

Stinger LAM :) Scout unit.

When Battletech first came out I never used LAM's in my games, because the just did not make sense. I did use the transforming rules to add Transformers into my games, more for laughs than anything else.

Thanks! I needed validation that Catalyst did infact re-print the rules, (in Interstellar Ops Alternate Eras) keeping LAMs alive! I had been using my old 3056 Tac Handbook up to this point.

Ah yes the latest rules for LAMs, yes now they are scary. Have been around long enough to have seen both sides. We used to make two changes, you needed both an aerospace and mech pilot skills, buying both as normal. This pushes BV extremely high. The range band movement modifiers are a pain, but we would alter the movement to hits but dividing the movement per plus by 3 just like the jump change. These help, but the hard counter used to be aerospace fighters. Zoom and boom.

@DonaldWWitt

12 күн бұрын

Honestly if somebody is cheesing a LAM against you, just bring Aerospace Fighters and make them fight with Aerospace rules...

Guilty. Back when I played my Recon lance was 2 Wasp LAM's, a Stinger LAM, and a Phoenix Hawk LAM was lance leader and fire support. The lights carried C3i and Beagle Active Probe. The PHawk was the master. I only used them for the sole purpose of scouting. I exclusively ran them in GERWALK mode.

Robotech lost me when I found out that everything runs on flower power

@michaelbarnard8529

22 күн бұрын

That’s because Robotech is a mashup of three unrelated anime. The flower part comes from the Army of the Sothern Cross part (tanks), but oddly uses the “protoculture” name from Macros (where the LAM and Marauder pictures come from), which was referring to an ancient precursor civilization culture, not horticulture.

21 күн бұрын

It lost me after 3 seasons of "Oh look bad aliens attack, humans win, oh look new aliens show up IMMEDIATELY and repeat the same crap again" Even when they tried to reboot it all it came down to was "Oh flower energy aliens are actually good guys, your new alien friends are the bad guys now" Maybe they should of spent less on lawyers and more on decent writers who were able to think beyond "Aliens bad, now ded, need new aliens to be bad"

@energyfitness5116

11 күн бұрын

Pretty on par for 80s cartoons.

Just a few seconds in, and we're breaking out Min Mei images. We're going sorched earth nuke the site from orbit! Hell yeah!

I LOVE the idea of LAMs! Back in the day, my buddies and i would play them all the time. Didn't take long to figure out how broken they were. Then the new LAM rules came out and it was beyong my tolerance to play them. All that said, we will still field one now and then, for fun. But we have toned them down a LOT with house rules. So much that they have no real advantage except in campaign type settings... We just like the idea of them. But i have to address that you played Blue Control, back in the day... Yikes! LOL

"I used to play a blue control deck..." You deserve every LAM that happens to you. :P Seriously, though, I like LAMs being in the setting. I love all of the weird and crazy things in the universe that don't often get the spotlight like LAMs, protomechs, and Quads. The gameplay and rules side of things isn't really an issue in my local group because we mostly just run fluff lists and narrative campaigns anyway. At the end of the day, if you really wanted to be That Guy and break the system there are so many other ways to do it already that LAMs are hardly anything new.

From a logistics standpoint, LAMs are the only mechs you need. An Overlord can deliver 42 fighters that become helicopters or mechs as needed to complete a mission. Union? 14. Leopard? 6. You are now dealing with modern warfare cranked to 11, only the carrier needs to sortie only Harriers that are also tanks and infantry fighting vehicles.

Wait, you don't like the LAM? Not even the LAM Urbanmech? I never would have guessed!

Haven't watched the video yet, but I am very curious why Red hates the laser anti missile system. I mean, it generates a lot if heat compared to the ballistic version, but no risk of ammo detonation...

@BigRed40TECH

22 күн бұрын

Laser AMS has always been an enemy of the people!

BLASPHEMY! Urbi-LAMs to the rescue!! but for real: LAMs should be different in rules and only have 2 stages and stem from avoid mechs not humanoids..

@brandonschwertley2723

22 күн бұрын

AMERIIIIIICA, AMERRRIIIIIIICAAAAA........AMERICA F**K YEA

I started playing before LAMs came out. By the time they had rules we were only playing in RPG settings. We also house ruled needing aerospace pilot skill to use them, and they were a huge pain to maintain in-setting. Holding ground made them as vulnerable to attack as any other mech/ground unit. Nobody in our group even wanted to use them at that point.

I think it's genuinely hilarious that the Battlemech is so awful in its own setting that everything around it has to be hobbled into the ground in order for it to be effective. Yes, I made two separate posts. I didn't want to blend the two thoughts together.

Always enjoy your videos Red. I have a Phoenix Hawk mini that is unpainted...I now have the urge to paint it "Control Blue" and put "Water" symbols on it for markings.. :)

Totally agree with you. I was one who played Battltech because there was no Robotech game. You are right, it never fit with the setting or the game play.

I like LAMs as scouts and only as scouts/spotters. I almost NEVER use them for direct fire combat roles,and usually only use them when I'm running a Campaign where the players are fighting a VERY rich merc company,or they manage to salvage one themselves. But we're very strict on them on our table. They're very fast,but extremely fragile,and Riflemen/Blackjack/Jaegermechs love eating them. Most players I know who run LAMs only use them in scouting roles to replace a light mech. And we usually only take the Stinger and Wasp. The only mechs I haven't liked are Quadvees or the Domini. Way too expensive and awful to repair in a campaign sense. Right now I only have an Urbanmech LAM from the salvage boxes but that's because short of printing them myself,Aerospace minis are a bitch to find. I'm bout ready to get a 3D printer and start printing a couple Warriors or something.

I agree about LAMS but then again I am a big fan of protomechs. Some people like battletech for different reason. I even have a regular opponent that only plays battletech with tanks and troops.

@BigRed40TECH

22 күн бұрын

If Protomechs got fixed rules, I'd probably cover them.

You know, this video made me realize something. I am a huge fan of Macross, and the VFs are some of my favorite mecha/spacecraft designs. And yet when I play or think of Battletech, I never even think about LAMs despite the obvious inspiration. I've never played them myself, just heard some stuff about their (broken) rules before and haven't bothered looking into them at all. And it's not that I dislike them in any way or think they aren't plausible in the setting (in a very specific way). Just when I think of Battletech, it's things like the Atlas, the Mad Dog, the Orion, the Catapult, the Zeus, etc. these towering battle-scarred behemoths that shake the ground wherever they walk. That's what screams Battletech to me.

🤩 urbie flying on the wings of angels 🤩

always depends on implementation. i am not against it by default. but if the only way they know to implement it to make it break balance, it is better left out.

I have some appreciation to the old-school approach to game balance which basically boils down to "huh, what's that?" I think games with choices with obvious or sometimes less-obvious strengths and flaws can give the world a degree of verisimilitude which can add a lot to a game that has heavy role-playing elements. LAMs I think are an artifact of this era of game development, and are also one of those things that was so obviously broken they forced developers to actually start paying attention to balance, because there's fun imbalance that can be more-or-less solved with systems like Battle Value, or by having a Game Master who uses flawed units as OPFOR to give the PCs a sneaky leg up, but then there's un-fun imbalance like flying mechs that game the game last 20 turns with little interaction because they skew the rolls of the game so hard and offer such little opportunity for counter-play, and LAMs fall into that second category.

Understandable to be fair, my ONE group that I play LAMs all know how they play, so we can counter and have fun with them, but as a one off that is prepared for, or long campaign reasons. LAMs are not for casual/pick up games or with our newer group members. LAMs to us are at best goofy, like taking a all urbie.

It’s always sad to hear you venom for LAMs, as I’ll always have a soft spot for them in concept and perhaps the best part of your content is your genuine enthusiasm. Even “liking” them, though, I don’t have any real desire to see them brought back to the fore and seeing the Urbanmech version revealed was disappointing (I’d rather have seen almost any other force pack). For the effort of the video, the least I can do is feed the algorithm and look forward to brighter topics to come!

@Big Red-40Tech - while I do like the occasional use of LAMs, you make excellent points. You did mis the absolute hard counter to them - fighters. WiGE vehicles, like VTOLs, are practically immobile targets to conventional and aerospace fighters, and are very easily hit. Move max cruise across the map? To a fighter at altitude, it has the same TMM as if you hovered. Also, LAMs don't have bomb hard points like fighters. You have to give up internal tonnage - armor or weapons - for a bomb bay. Not a great trade, honestly. Regardless, great points, and another excellent video.

"...much beloved company, Harmony Gold" LOL Riiiiiiiiiight

Now we need a quad-vee video!

@BigRed40TECH

21 күн бұрын

Not anytime soon you don't. lol

Although I like LAM's, I deeply appreciate a different point of view. particularly when it is well researched and supported. The art of civil discourse ia a dying art. I don't share your visceral reaction but I appreciate the fact that it's based on respect for a setting/

If you don't like LAMs because it seems impractical from an engineer or physics point of view then you should hate jump jets that make even less sense. If you can vertical lift a 40+ ton vehicle with jump jets then you can fly it with wings. If the Highlander can jump then it can fly. Which is my way of saying that jump jets are dumb.

@Eserchie

21 күн бұрын

This is part of why I like LAMs. In a world where you can have 45 ton mechs that have jets mounted on them that can lift the thing 180m straight up, surely someone is going to mount some wings and keep the thing flying in a triumph of thrust over aerodynamics. The transforming makes less sense. Jump Jets are kind of absurdly non linear. lifting a 20 ton Locust 30m takes 500kg of JJ, 2.5% of its mass. Lifting a 100ton Atlas the same height takes 2 ton, 2% of it's mass. Square cube eat your heart out! Making the JJ worth using instead of running typically takes even more % of weight the lighter your mech is. A Highlander devotes less than 7% to the jumpjets. A Spider uses over 13%. Somehow, the heavier the mech is, the more mass % you need to devote to achieve a given land speed, but the less you need to make it fly.

We had a guy running a long-term BattleTech campaign for our group. He literally forced me to play a LAM pilot. I skimmed over the rules, and I explained that he was making a huge mistake. He agreed with me after I cored out every big-bad he had in every major battle. Lose initiative? Fly to the far end of the map and behind cover. Win initiative? Rear arc the biggest threat. I only got hit once. ONCE! So stupid.

Interesting, I finally had a chance to use a couple in our massive AS Misery Team Gsme and while they're fast they're pretty low threat Next, campaign up will be WD with a lance of LAMs. We shall see how it goes.

@claytonhollowell4488

22 күн бұрын

Alpha Strike is a totally different beast.

Would you be okay with a seaplane that transforms from a boat into a flying fish? If it starts its turn above water it can choose between air movement or naval movement with the only difference between that anti-air units dont get their bonus against naval units

IMO, the transforming LAM is overcomplicated, but the concept of a flying mech should be completely doable with BT engineering withOUT complex transformation sequences. Consider: 1) BT's mech scale fusion engines can push a mech sized object (ie, an aerospace fighter) at multiple Gs. You only need 1G to neutralize the pull of gravity and more will let you gain altitude, leave atmosphere if you keep it up long enough (which aerospace fighters can do). 2) Many mechs already look like an aerospace fighter on legs. 3) Partial wings have been introduced into the setting. Put it all together and you SHOULD BE able to make a mech that can fly withOUT a complicated tranformation sequence. Especially if you can turn Jump Jets into constant thrust thrusters.

@guitarhausdoesntknowwhatac3285

19 күн бұрын

The issue is that to maintain sustained flight based on our understanding of the tech and main method of "flight" (IE jump jets) the heat load would be absurd; Like for a Spider to move it's full range with JJ is nominally 8 heat and that's assuming it lands at the end of the 240 meters. So the results of this would be that you have a mech that can "fly" but it would be so hot that it couldn't realistically do anything since either A: It has energy weapons that cause it to overheat and fall out of the sky or B: it has munitions that will explode in short order as they're cooked.

I made a homebrew rule for Battletech that add components based off the show Votoms I call "Voots", they allow a mech to slide on smooth ground, so you can't go through trees or over rough terrain, on the same height level at 1.5x the speed of walking ending with any facing the player chooses (like with jump jets), the heat cost is 3, and +1 when shooting. I forget what would happen if one of the Voots were destroyed and you attempted using it again, I didn't write it down. It's mostly helpful for light and medium mechs, but I haven't done it much with heavier mech, so who knows. I only play Voots by myself cause I think their slightly overpowered and not fully thought through. But after learning about LAMs, now I feel Voots are subtle by comparison.

Wow… Dropped LAMs in the 90s. It is so long ago, I couldn’t even remember what year. But now I remember why.

@ZacharyChristy-Aronson-wg5ki

22 күн бұрын

Still grabbing any LAMs that come up, because my daughter is nine and loves them.

Ah yes I love Light Horse Archers that have the resilience of heavy infantry

LAMs don't get to go until the Urbanmech LAM is canon!

The fun thing is their gameplay strengths are dunked on outside the succession wars. Pulse, precision ammo, targeting computers, you can pretty easily put something together that really hurts a LAM. Problem is the LAMs are all extinct by then.

Sure they are goofy but, I wish they were neither gimped nor broken by their rules. Anyways, my fave is the Screamer (sadly only prototype lost during op liberation).

you say lams are op, I say lam-only campaign

I find it very telling that just about any of the mechs that have the partial wing quirk by far fill the role that I would want these things to, doubly so for the big expensive ones because they feel like less a light tank that can punch and more a truck that makes you question that if gravity is still a thing as it jumps at least as fast as a medium can run

Could have been worse: There is so much music from Macross DELTA that comes to mind *Blank AF* you could have used...

@warlok363

22 күн бұрын

The music in Delta was at least better than anything that has every came out of Basara's mouth.

@tehpw7574

22 күн бұрын

@@warlok363 You fail simply by even thinking one is better than the other :D (but I see your point because I tried to not even think about M7)

@coreytaylor3633

21 күн бұрын

@@warlok363 you bite that nasty tongue!!!

This video is incredibly insightful. The experiences with LAM's have been that they were very underpowered and pathetic, only winning non-narrative edge cases in the succession wars. As all I have heard from them had been in the Aerospace or 'Mech modes. Hearing how they are in the hybrid mode in skilled hands is baffling. I can see your distaste in them from the streams now. Though I am of the opinion that the rules sides of things can very well be overhauled to make it fit better (similar to the new Aerospace rules coming up for CAS). They always did stick out as awkward looking and feeling in BattleTech for me. Though I do think 'mechs are far more nimbler and flexible than the video game depictions show as we can see in literature they aren't to the degree of the Mecha of anime. Though IMO some fit the BattleTech aesthetic more than others though ironically enough often are illegal designs such as the Scorpion LAM which is basically an aerospace fighter with leg landing gear. I always did find LAM's a bit weird, albeit some other things like QuadVee's (at least all the canonical depictions of them and rules) out-weirded LAM's for me. Though it isn't something I would've ever put in the franchise myself (Perhaps more emphasis on Aerospace/ Conventional aircraft/ VTOL's carrying them. The logistical and mobilization side of things make sense to me) I did always have a tinge of wishing to see them fleshed out more, redrawn, rules changed, etc. To have a more grounded and western take on these compared to the eastern counterparts, however far that would be. I think this video, however, essentially marks the end of that. Maybe if we have some VTOL's like the Tonbo intending to carry and drop 'mechs around could fill that weird special interest hole LAM's vaguely touched on...

Great video as always Big Red! A couple thoughts: - I’ve been reading through all the novels because I have chosen to not have a life, and recently finished Robert Thurston’s novel Freebirth which features some LAMs. I thought it was an interesting approach to LAMs: essentially, Clan scientists were trying to mess around with LAMs to see if there was any use for them. But they found that they were too mechanically complex and all-but-completely unreliable. Horse and friends won a battle on Huntress against some Smoke Jags using a LAM, which (spoilers) they ultimately used as a guided cruise missile because all other uses failed. I kind of like this approach to the lore and wish the rules reflected this: a weird and terrible Star League invention that simply does not work except as a guided cruise missile that may not even work because every minute risks mechanical failure. - In my previous career, I was a very, very, very minor military historian. I did a bit of a deep dive into American attempts at close air support in the European Theater of Operations. The conclusion was that virtually all close air support was all-but-ineffective as the air jocks were going too fast to be able to accurately identify friendly vs enemy forces which led to unacceptable friendly fire casualties (in particular, before OP Cobra, where the US Air Force killed well over 100 US infantrymen and even a general). Post-battle analysis also found that a lot of the “kills” against tanks/armored vehicles airmen claimed were either just temporary mobility kills or just scratched the armor and that they’d been destroyed by infantry with bazookas, anti-tank guns, mines, or other armored vehicles. I think this could be the other way I could get behind LAMs-they go so fast that you have to roll to see who you hit, and you might end up doing damage to your own forces and any damage they do end up doing is greatly reduced. Anyway, keep up the great work! It’s always a joy to watch your holovids!

Nice video Red. I properly got into Battle Tech around the turn of the millennium thanks to the Mech Warrior titles. I’ve never encountered a LAM on the tabletop and I can’t say I’ve even encountered them in the fiction I’ve experienced, essentially their absence from my BT experience has done nothing to detract from it. I fully agree I don’t think they fit narratively and I didn’t even know how bad their gameplay was until this video and so likewise share your opinion about not wanting to see any sort of LAM revival in the future. Sadly the cynic in me believes that many people would be down for them being added, even if many have like me never actually experienced LAMs in reality purely down to the “screw your narrative immersion, do it for the memes” crowd. Which I’m sure makes of the majority of the vocal minority who are talking about wanting more LAMs in BT.

I started this hobby back in the early 2000s because of Robotech. The guys I played with bullied me so hard that I dropped my LAMs quickly. Moved away, have a new group, still no LAMs.

@BigRed40TECH

22 күн бұрын

I think you'll find LAMs aren't really welcome given how they operate. I'm sorry you had a negative experience though.

@Kevin-us4gj

21 күн бұрын

@@BigRed40TECH Don’t be sorry. It was a learning experience that I appreciate after the fact. Communities have standards and expectations. I’m glad they taught me. This isn’t anime, this isn’t Robotech. And learning how grand strategy this setting was elevated this setting to a whole new level for me. And I think it’s cool you took the time to respond to my comment.

I was blessed in the 80s while playing Battletech that I never saw the _Macross Saga._

TRANSFORMERS MORE THAN MEETS THE EYE

@BigRed40TECH

22 күн бұрын

ROBOTS IN DISGUISE!