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Fuji: 👀 🍵

Ochiba's "I compelled fate to look at me so I could scratch out its eyes" is both her admitting that she wasn't leaving the conception of an heir up to fate (she banged someone else) but also a push for Ishido to not wait for due process like the bureaucrat he is. Next scene, he's butchering his rival and blaming it on bandits.

To me, it seemes obvious that the Taiko was shooting blanks and Ochiba found...alternative sources to getting pregnant, and is telling Ishido this as a not-so-subtle, "I'll do whatever I want to save myself. I've done it before. I'm gonna do it again."

@kayabaheathcliff9385

2 ай бұрын

Many of Japanese historical scholar think so. True father is not Taiko(Hideyoshi Toyotomi) but Harunaga Ono perhaps.

Summary of backstory: Ochiba is daughter of Kuroda, a warlord who was trying to unify Japan. Mariko is daughter of Akechi Jinsai. Akechi betrayed Kuroda and killed him. Akechi married Mariko off to Buntaro to save her from a traitors death. Ochiba became a consort of the Taiko (who came after Kuroda), and eventually was the sole consort to produce an heir for him. After the Taiko died, Ochiba is ensuring the Regents care for the heir until he turns 16 and takes over. Ochiba is one of if not the most powerful woman in Japan. She has reason to hate both Mariko and Toranaga.

I thought that was a really powerful scene in the Willow World tea house. Loved it!

Wild theory (1 scenario out of the 8 off the top of my head) Ochiba no Kata wants Ishido dead. Every word she says makes him fill inferior while feeding his admiration for the taiko. All of this to manipulate him into making more and more rash and brutal action which will ultimately turn ALL the other regeants against him. Remember, she left Edo well AFTER Toranaga already left Osaka. Toranaga has a pregnant wife and retainers still in Osaka; if he is as Ochiba says to Ishido, it would have been to Toranaga’s interest to keep her a hostage in Edo. Question time: is the heir Toranaga’s kid? 1. Yes 2. No 3. No, but he knows who is

I like how this episode has not much fight and mostly dialogue , but still as good as other episode!! this is how good the show is and how great the acting are about the pregnancy , during that time, women were always the one being blamed for not having a son or any kids at all. it was always thought it had to do with women given the lack of the science back then, and that was why , women can climb the hiearchy fast with a son that being said, I hope they can shift the spotlight away from John and mariko , I didnt read the book and maybe that is also the focus, but this I love you you love me but we cant say anything and have to pretend is such a trope. beside, we have spent a lot of time with them. lets show the bigger picture :)

My opinion - Toronaga slept with Ochiba. The Heir is his son. Ochiba slept with him under Taikos shadow and when Toronaga was at Taiko’s bedside- he mentioned sleeping with women in a wink wink format.

@sevraonic8656

2 ай бұрын

That was my thought too, they all knew that the taiko was impotent, I bet it was torinaga's plan too to drug Ochiba, since the Daoyun (wife of the Taiko) was also an ally of Torinaga. They were hoping to reinstate Ruri's previous high position as the mother of the heir, and would bring stability back to the realm and Torinaga as the guardian of the heir, but things didn't just go the way they planned it to be, since Ochiba has always have her burning war still very lit up inside of her.

@JerzeyBoyz

2 ай бұрын

It’s just that Toranaga had that line to Mariko wondering why Ochiba is coming at him so hard, you’d figure if he knew he slept with her and it was his kid he wouldn’t be confused, unless he’s playing dumb

@haydenreid7496

2 ай бұрын

I caught onto that too

@alexandermills92

2 ай бұрын

@@sevraonic8656 the Taiko’s wife during the play mentioned to Ochiba that shes siding with the wrong man. I think shes well aware Toronaga slept with Ochiba to produce an heir for the Taiko so the other Daimyos wouldnt rush into war after the 200 year end of constant warfare (taiko ended that warfare) thus allowing the Minowara Blood line to reign as the rulers of Japan. Ochiba would mean nothing to toronaga as hes taken many wives before. Siding with toronaga is a weak move for her as she seeks power only. Siding with the Regents against Toronaga means she can kill Toronaga with the help of the regents and ronin and assume power as the rulers mother and partner of the Taiko and she would control a lot more. She seeks one thing. Power. Great actress but damn she creepy as Lady Ochiba

@sevraonic8656

2 ай бұрын

@@JerzeyBoyz that's just my hint, I'm not really sure if that's going to happen in this adaptation. It's still connecting the dots at this point, Toranaga close to Taiko - sometimes pissing on their feet due to drunkenness, the Daoyun favors Toranaga and compares him to the stick (him) holding up the tree (heir) in an earlier episode. Out of all the consorts why Ochiba? Why not drug other women, or pillow other women after they drugged them (sounds horrible btw) - so why her? I think Toranaga was all about bringing back the balance, but Ochiba didn't want any balance, and it's not possible for them to tell her that they conspired the assassination. And again, goes back to Mariko saying that "women are simply at war", and it may mean all the time during that period - who knows Ochiba may have told Mariko that when they were still young (to stay vigilant all the time, hence why Ochiba would accuse Toranaga and gang), because they were close. If you would watch back on this episode, there's so much parallelism that they kinda add up. Both Mariko and ochiba's war are still unfinished. As for Toranaga, he knows that day would come that his past would haunt him (Ochiba conspiring against him and what they did to her), and that Ochiba will not stop until he's killed. That's why Toranaga was gathering fief because he knows just how Ochiba works.

Crimson Sky: 1. Actual Plan 2. Red Herring 3. Trap

Yeah, the cannons will ultimately make them win this war. Four episodes left so I suspect it won't happen immediately. I think Taiko was impotent and Ochiba slept with somebody. IDK if it even matters really because history tells us that filial relations doesn't matter as long as power remains within the family. So the heir could literally be picked up from the streets as long as he is recognized as the king's child/heir.

I'll just up and say it: Young Mariko was a delusional Disney Princess who wishes to be married into a family of a much higher station than what she got. She held contempt for Hidekatsu Toda-sama even then, and i didn't know this until this episode, she views him as beneath her station, or beneath her in ranking, as evidenced by her comment in the flashback about how her father is discarding him; also telling Ruri-hime (Ochiba sama) what a joke and worth less alliance it was to marry her off to the Toda family;and also by his comment to Toranaga about how his father should have married her better. This puts Hidekatsu Toda-sama in a more sympathetic light, though of course, we still disapprove of the Domestic violence. Put yourself in the man's shoes. Mariko looked down on her and that marriage even before they were married; Hated him for sparing her life, which, it turns out, is apparently her father's plan for marrying her off to him in the first place; and have been ice cold towards here for the length of their marriage, he probably only ever got the occasional pillowing because of obligation. That would drive any man bitter and resentful. which brings into question whether or not the physical abuse is a more recent occurrence or not (still not a good look and not something to be condoned either way); and if he had always acted harshly towards her in turn from the start or not, or if that was his defence mechanism towards mariko's cold treatment towards her. And so, when Toranaga revealed truth bombs to her, clearing up her misunderstanding, i was literally shouting at the screan “YES! THANK YOU!” So much so that the next door neighbour knocked on my door to check if i was OK. Lol Afterthought: though her words were subtitled “i have failed my father”, it could have also been translated as “I have betrayed my father’s trust” as in she betrayed him for wishing for death instead of noticing the great plans and hopes she placed on her when he married her off to a lesser house.

@MrSmokinDragon

Ай бұрын

while all that is true, Bunjiro should have divorced her instead of beating her...

@Anantinfinit

16 күн бұрын

She didn't know about her father's plan. In normal circumstances her reaction towards her marriage with buntaro would have justified it. Marrying ur favourite daughter to a man lower beneath her station is a great dishonour to her status.

kiku is best girl too, kiku and fuji. And maybe ochiba too..and mariko..? Oh no, the female characters are too good in this show

Many of the military commanders of the Warring States period had male partners. For example, Shingen Takeda, the strongest military commander of the Warring States period, even left a love letter to his male lover. Takeda Shingen was Toranaga's rival. Tranaga was not a sodomy, but why is sodomy not discussed in this drama?

@sevraonic8656

2 ай бұрын

It's shown but in a subtle way, if you'd watch back the shudos are always beside their samurais or in the background, especially in Toranaga and yabushige's scene.

@ryo-lf6vd

2 ай бұрын

Tokugawa Ieyasu, who was the model for Toranaga, had a young man called "koshou" who looked after him. His name was "Ii Naomasa" and he was also Ieyasu's night partner.He was known as a handsome man. And he was a favorite of Ieyasu. He was highly capable and later achieved great success.

@user-yv8qu1tm4j

2 ай бұрын

@@ryo-lf6vd Thanks for the information. It is true that Ii Naomasa is well known. But I heard that Ieyasu was not so interested in male sexuality. Pederasty was comparatively tolerated in Japan historically speaking. For example, there is a very famous 19th century novel in Japan called "Tokaido Chu Hizakurige," in which one of the main characters was a male prostitute. It would be more interesting if this drama could reflect the history of Japan's tolerance of LGBT people.

@sevraonic8656

2 ай бұрын

@@ryo-lf6vd I think I saw him with Nagakado in the earthquake scene when they ran to Toranaga after he fell into the landslide.

@ryo-lf6vd

2 ай бұрын

⁠@@user-yv8qu1tm4j It's interesting to imagine that. I've never read the original novel that Shogun is based on, but I wonder if there's a "lover" in it?