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Great chat! Let's do it again!

@kj9004

3 жыл бұрын

Yay! I'm so happy that you noticed my question and that it built into such a full discussion! I love a lot of your work, especially the process you've shown in creating arcane ugly. It feels like creating the artefacts like wands and the random inspiration generator is a great way to add to the creative process.

@TheDMGinfo

3 жыл бұрын

Dude. I thought you'd been in a huge fight with all the bullet holes in the wall! ;)

@davewilson13

3 жыл бұрын

I had not seen your channel yet, thanks.

@EdensukoV

3 жыл бұрын

Love your channel and your creativity.

I like all the soft, respectful, informed dogging on 5e. That's my brand of dogging.

@alexg6353

3 жыл бұрын

I agree! Dog it, but with respect...from a place of knowledge and care for D&D.

@spudsbuchlaw

3 жыл бұрын

5e: It's great, but certainly not perfect

@artjomkahn7773

3 жыл бұрын

What does dogging mean? i dont get it?

@manlypedro75

3 жыл бұрын

@@artjomkahn7773 criticizing

@artjomkahn7773

3 жыл бұрын

@@manlypedro75 thanks

Ben I can attest to what you said about how easy it is to make rpgs and break into the hobby. I'm a programmer and for years my dream has been making indie video games. Last year I was working on some stuff I was honestly pretty proud of. I think they were well made and interesting. Absolutely nobody gave me a second glance. Even my friends didn't care. And those games took so many hundreds of hours I can't possibly count them. Now just Fall of last year I started getting into RPGs and the OSR scene. Already I've got many new friends, people checking my stuff out, multiple games going, and have even made some money off it. It's extremely rewarding. And it feels less stressful. If it doesn't work out, I at least had fun making it and don't feel like I wasted my time.

@Siofragames

3 жыл бұрын

@@underfire987 And to be clear I'm not disparaging video game development! It is awesome and a lot of fun. But right now rpg dev is more rewarding.

I always like to say that I'm not old school, but I am old-fashioned. I don't like the specifics of old games, but I like the "vibe" of old games. The way of playing them, and the expectations about the roles of players, DMs and the rules with each other, for instance. Applying that paradigm to "better" rules is what I want.

Timestamps for questions 2:14 - How much do you actually try out different systems? Do you settle on one system, or try to get a taste of everything? 8:10 - Which is better for a one-shot: a one page game (like Lasers & Feelings or 2400), or ripping from a module? 12:31 - What do you think of players making their own spells? (leads to a larger discussion on long-term player goals)? 30:04 - Where do you see game design trending towards? 51:46 - Do you often borrow ideas wholesale from other sources for D&D (story, tropes, etc)? Do you feel guilty or less for "unoriginality?" 57:28​ - What videogame is the most OSR? 1:03:51 - What are your feelings about milestone leveling vs conventional XP? 1:06:28 - What is your feeling on dungeon size? What is the sweet spot? Is 5 rooms too small? How many levels do you have? 1:17:40 - How do you pitch OSR to your friends?

@tlink98

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks Ben for adding the timestamps to the bottom of your description!

Huh. I thought Hankerin was a figment of my fever dream

@hondawilky

3 жыл бұрын

His video intros often make me wonder if someone has spiked my coffee.... with absinthe. 😂😂😂

You absolute madman you got Hankerin !

I really like this one. Hank's skateboard metaphors were on point. Also, I agree with Ben on dungeon size. I like at least a dozen rooms per level. I want the PCs to feel like they could get lost in the place, like, "Where the hell are we?"

QB you're slaying the collab game.

Regarding the "players create their own spells" question, I think one of the game that tackles that best is Dungeon World with the Ritual move from the Wizard's playbook or the Cast A Spell move from The Mage playbook. The Ritual move read : "When you draw on a place of power to create a magical effect, tell the GM what you’re trying to achieve." and then proceed to list requirements that the GM tells you. I think it's a brilliant way to approach magic that can do pretty much anything you'd like but the GM has some control over it by giving you limits you have to work with. The Mage move does : "When you weave a spell to help solve a problem, describe it and roll +INT. Spells cast this way can never deal damage directly" and the move then goes on with a list of unintended side effects that you have to pick upon casting. Again, same thing, the player has the freedom to come up with something, anything they can think of, but portrays the chaotic nature of magic that never really goes exactly has planned.

@kj9004

3 жыл бұрын

Wow, I love this method. Thank you for sharing it. There's a system that handles it similarly called SPELL by whimsey machine. You declare your intention and what stat you want to cast with. Then, you draw scrabble tiles to make a spell that will apply to your situation. Then, the GM describes how it plays out. Then, the spell disappears, unless you spend XP to memorize it. This kind of representation of the chaos of magic is so cool, and I wish there were more systems incorporated "on the fly" spells. It also helps with the mythos of the wizard as someone who studies magic and understands how certain words, ingredients, and gestures come together to make a spell. Chefs aren't limited to certain recipes that they've memorized. A lot of them come up with things when they want a specific flavor.

@monkeybarsixx6763

3 жыл бұрын

@@kj9004 Whitehack is another game with freeform spells to check out. You can go either way with it, but it gives you a lot of room, if that's your vibe.

@dkbibi

3 жыл бұрын

@@kj9004 really like the analogy that wizards are more like chefs than scientists

I've been playing since 1979 and I agree with most of what Hankerin has said here about where he hopes the hobby is moving towards. When I first started playing we were really using a heavily modified set of rules and I've noticed that this happens less in games I play in today. I do think 5e feels like a big corporate project and I am very reluctant to write in those beautiful books. I think moving towards modular games with lots of room for creative storytelling and rules customization would be my preference. I also remember when you didn't dare say you played DnD; it was like a little secret society. I do feel like there is sort of a rpg bubble going on, but to be honest, I love that I don't have to pray to the Gods anymore to find a game to join. 😉. Thanks for this discussion and keep looking forward!

"Interesting dangerous decisions, where my thinking as a player was what mattered" -Questing Beast 38:12 What a quote.

@borisdevilboon8064

3 жыл бұрын

For real, just distilled the osr ethos as succinctly as I've ever seen, for me at least

Ask Questing Beast really turned into my favorite YT series. Keep it up Ben!

Damn, first you get Seth Skorkowsky for this show, then Runehammer and Miscast at the same time. Who's next, Esper the Bard and Matt Colville? The fine folks at Necrotic Gnome to talk about Dolmenwood? Excellent stuff.

@joshjames582

3 жыл бұрын

He should talk to Jim Murphy aka Game Methusela if he really wants an early D&D perspective. The dude's a legend.

@kellvalar8573

3 жыл бұрын

Man, Jim Murphy and Tim Kask would kick so much ass.

@andrewsouthard9331

2 жыл бұрын

Next up is Gygax himself

The Ultima Online story about opening a bakery was worth its word-count in sheer gold.

"I just want my ratty hoody...and a miller high life" This is exactly how i feel about everything. Great talk guys.

33:10 man, that is a beautiful vision of the future. Strip it down, rough it up, and nail it on the first try, no matter how many tries it takes.

You should get the Complex Games Apologist for one of these. It'd be nice to get some views on stuff from someone who explicitly enjoys more complex games, because the sort of thesis of a lot of OSR designers and players is to keep reducing the game in size. Plus he's got an awesome channel that could use a bump in viewership.

This was fantastic, can this be a regular feature?! You three were so inspiring together. You each brought such a unique POV to the table and it was fun watching you inspire one another. That in turn was inspiring for your viewers!

I have listened to this video about 4 times since it came out and I think it speaks to the power of how well you guys communicate. Thank you for having a video that is critical and clearly opinionated without sounding attacky or vitriolic. Also, what hank says at about 1 hr 20 mins in about wanting to test his mettle and fiber to hang with the older traditions is soo cool and inspiring. Big ups.

I'd argue that there absolutely is a place for character creation within OSR, it's just, like the rest of OSR, a bit different to how it's typically concieved of in 5e or PF2e. It's not about having a bunch of different stats to juggle or minmaxing your tiefling rogue/warlock multiclass build, so much as it is about rolling your stats to concieve of a character who could believably inhabit the world. Like the rest of OSR, the decreased focus on mechanical complexity gives you a lot more freedom to come up with a character you enjoy playing, and the fact that games are typically deadlier means there are stakes and investment there that can be hard to pull off in the 'bigger' titles.

You have the best collabs! Hankerin Ferinale hisself? Woo buddy!!!

My first D&D experiences were in my teens, with B/X and AD&D. Two years ago I picked up the hobby again, in what would be the only time I have played 5e. I wanted to play a wacky, underoptimised dwarf rogue (sapper/explosives/traps bent). I was quickly discouraged from this by the other players/DM, since the class/race lacked "synergy" and a "rogue" class was considered unnecessary in a party. I settled on a human fighter. After 3 sessions I found myself powergaming and planning the future build, feats and multi-classing. I realised soon after the game petered out that it had robbed me of a lot of the fun I could have been having! Shortly after that I started DMing, back in my preferred OS-style systems, and (re-) discovered the joy of moving away from that "build"-oriented style to something more creative and relaxed. Thanks for the insightful and fun video series, Ben! I felt a little jump of excitement when I noticed the notification of this video pop up during work today. I immediately added it to my watch-later list for the evening. :)

I love rewatching these videos years later. At the 30:00 mark, Hank's 80-90s skateboard metaphor... describes the O5R. Not old for the sake of old. But essentialist... with an emphasis on design and layout. Shadowdark is a perfect example of this.

I really like this conversation. It covers why I think the R in OSR stands for Renaissance and not Revival. Renaissance implies it's looking at what was before and going forwards, not adhering to it strictly.

I seem to have it the jackpot. All the players I play with want to build their own weapons, spells, and artifacts.... They couldn't care if the world fell apart around them lol

I find one-shots liberate people to either role-play with commitment and ferocity or to relax and go along for the ride.

I’m a huge fan of “borrowing” but generally not wholecloth. Ill hack and tweak to fit the campaign setting or situation. I’ve been playing with the same group since 1990 as the DM. We are currently running a 1/2e mildly home brewed campaign because we felt that Pathfinder and 5e were overly engineered and ruled. Mind you those systems have great mechanics but the feel at times can be a table top video game

Runehammer and QB? That's an auto-like already. Not familiar with Miscast, so I'll have to check that channel out now.

@Caulkhead

3 жыл бұрын

Check out his Arcane Ugly series, he's really putting his all into his game it's quite inspiring!

@mandodelorian4668

3 жыл бұрын

@@Caulkhead Alright, cool, thanks for the heads-up! 👍

"...and then all this other crap happened, and I woke up and didn't know why there was a horse in my bed the next day." Reminded me of a book I read as a kid, A Special Trick by Mercer Mayer.

Damn...I think Runehammer is my spirit animal. What great commentary. Thank you.

43:00. This discussion is why Rogue Trader: Warhammer 40k is my favorite frame of reference for pretty much anything I do Tabletop wise. It's so zany, and ragged, and weird. The Beakie Marine is an icon. Also, Space Sharks. Friggin' Space Sharks!

That moment when you realize two of your favorite KZreadrs know each other. Hank + QB = Mind Blown!

Editing spell text reminds me of some of the options from Golden Heroes (1980s Games Workshop super-hero game) for high level Energy Attack abilities: the user could gain the ability to alter the area of effect or duration of their attacks, for instance. (That's how I remember it anyway: it's been about thirty years)

I love this series and the guests. Great to see Runehammer who I've followed for a while, and great to see Miscast, who is a new and pleasant face for me! Chill crew, positive interplay, excellent discussion :) This round table felt the most accessible, welcoming, and humble in terms of the questions and answers. Big thanks all around.

I do the "make the character like the mini" thing to this day. I'll roll up a character that says he has a pick axe on the sheet, but the mini is wielding a crossbow so I do the old switcharoo.

Runehammer: "This is Traditional" "Can you hang?" -- I love this, SO MUCH! I've been playing D&D in some form since 1st Ed, so for me, to hear this described as "traditional" is wonderful! Thank you for getting together and having this session! This was awesome!

I track milestones very different than a lot of other people I think. I basically have each level require a combination of 10 different achievements, and obviously the higher the level the more difficult each achievement must be. And said achievements can include getting a lot of gold.

@MrTybex

3 жыл бұрын

Interesting. Can you share a list? I award 1xp each time they advance a plot line or they change the world in some way. XP to level up is = next level (3xp to go from Lv2 to Lv3). When they level up, xp resets to 0. Also, time skip/ downtime is required to level up so you dont become a demigod over 10 days.

Would love to see you chat with Matt Colville!

I *LOVE* tinkering with magic and inventing spells &items. I want an Ars Magica vibe in my D&D.

@alexg6353

3 жыл бұрын

I so agree, my son is begging for a Minecraft style crafting element in our game so I’m going to start adding that in.

This was just so cool. Ben you are hitting it out of the park. This was such a great discussion. Good work guys.

18:20 Hank: "I love that little tidbit by the way, that's a really good version of it. Like, what the hell is this?" Ben: *sweating profusely and overjoyed* "yeah"

I have always liked the idea of PC mages making their own spells or at the very least putting their own spins on pre-existing ones, so I actually developed a system for spell research that takes into account reagent gathering and experimentation success rates. Generally speaking, the time horizon for completion of these things takes years, the higher the level the longer. I'm also a huge fan of Vancian spell titles, so much so that the drab names of 5E spells have mostly been replaced in my homebrew setting.

Regarding the "making your own rpg" bit about osrs, after flipping through books of 5e, 4e, and odnd, i took my sweet time away from entertainment for the past two weeks and have been just day in and out hammering my own rpg into existance. Now it's mostly done(aside of alchemy and demon summoning) and playable with rules that i can cram in 4 A4 pages. I have the three of you to thank for the inspiration.

When everyone was talking about long-term play, I was WAITING for RuneQuest and Pendragon (both created by Greg Stafford) to get mentioned. I'm currently running RQG and playing Pendragon.... and it's really changed me attitude towards pacing. It also encourages investment because you only spend 20% (if that) of your characters' lives adventuring. And it means every adventure can be truly epic because it's THE event of the year.

Oooh, I am so behind! This was a brilliant episode and with two of my other favourites as well; I can't wait to see the other episodes you've put out. I haven't gotten much playing in lately, but I love to hang on the fringe and feel like I might be part of the crowd again soon.

I absolutely love these chat room style video discussions Ben. Thank you!

Love these - maybe my favorite D&D content series right now. Keep it coming!

This put me in a great mood! Great fun and good times. Really damn contagious! Good points overall 💪

Great discussion from great minds in the hobby! I hope this gathering becomes a regular event!

Man, all these guest stars have all been real good. I like the ideas they bounce off each other!

Dude, I've loved getting to hear you guys talking. I know my favourite comments probably come from Virginia McKender (f**k can I remember what he's calling himself, but… yeah) it just adds so much with the Ben and the new guy (sorry, I'm really not drunk) having some incredible input.

Man this was so damn fun and inspiring.

Questing Beast. The thing about large number of players seeing "character creation" as their favorite part of the game really opened my eyes. Now I completely understand why large number of my group does not want to try any other system. Instead they are just coming out with these crazy overpowered combos like: Sea Elf Warlock Artificer Sorcerer, or Druid cleric of life... etc

Love what Isabella Rossozombie said (I know, but who can remember all the aliases!) about people bringing their best when they know it's the end of the world. It's what happens with Fiasco when it's really working well.

Thanks guys! That's such a good idea of a series! And it made me discover miscast! (I was already a huge fan of Hankerin...) Plz keep them coming if when you can, cheers!

This format is really great, keep 'em coming!

yes yes yes! thats what i love most about osr - lo-fi, minimalist, accessible

Hank !!! Didn’t know he got the COVID ! Glad to see he’s well !

Thanks Hankerin for bringing up my question. Although I've been making one-page dungeon/adventures for my group lately, I can see how a condensed mod could grant more substance in a single session. I might give that a try in the future. In fact, I was thinking that the AD&D adventure would be better as a one-shot rather than having to craft a whole town for the players to get a hook and then promptly leave. However, that would be quite the task to boil down an adventure each week for my group.

hankerin nailing the lofi and lowtech insights - awesome

@trellis1027

3 жыл бұрын

This is what I love about Whitehack

If the person is like Miscast, then they only think D&D = RPGs. So it doesn't matter what game you play with them. They could want to play a "D&D" game and then you run them Runequest. It at point, the type of game you run doesn't matter. To me it feels like introducing someone to rpgs for the first time by running D&D is like introducing a person to board games by playing Monopoly. Like, sure you can do that - but why not something more fun. I would say that the most recent editions of D&D have taken the Deck-building you got in MTG and added it to RPGs. I think that's why you see that fourth pillar. Its more about how to find those killer builds and basic minmaxing.

wow I didn't know you guys knew eachother. Awesome group

Hey Ben! Talks about game design are super interesting! I hope you do more of this in the future! Nice video! Thank you for doing great content!

As far as the “Players making spells” - Savage Worlds seems almost perfect for this.

Really enjoying these, Ben. Plus you're introducing me to new ppl to follow on here. Thanks!

The nano business. Super interesting, and mad humbled to hear Seans name and Relicblade during this amazing discussion.

Loving this series! Please continue with them!

Loving these vids and I marked out seeing Runehammer on here, great job all

Two of my absolute favorites!

It would be cool to have a book that is just a collection of rules from different systems maybe with a shortened explanation from the writer. I don't play DnD but I still love watching these for ideas.

Interesting listening to this conversation from several years ago the week after a Hasbro exec talked enthusiastically about having AI mine decades of published material for "new" D&D content. 😮

Hank, you are the best! I love you too Ben. This video is super relevant right now. Thank you for the inspiration!

Love to see some collabs. Originally a fan of Hank and thats how i found this channel

;) My first session that I ran, like trent here, was also inspired by Hanks "You start in a cage", and May I say, trent here, has a great name

Another awesome Colman. 15:52 - I feel like this is the reason that west marches campaigns rarely happen. They get talked about a lot these days, but I've never actually met someone that runs one.

@tlink98

3 жыл бұрын

I'm currently running the Mothership module Gradient Descent as an asynchronous game (not quite West Marches, but close), and it's going fairly well. I think to get that type of game to work requires three things: 1. Default action/goal - Justin Alexander talks about this in his series on the open table, but basically it's the idea that if nobody can agree/think of anything to do this session, they can always do the default action. In a hexcrawl, it's walk in a random direction. In a dungeon crawl, it's usually go into a dungeon looking for an artifact they've heard about. In an investigation/urbancrawl, it's investigate. In a crime game, it's plan/execute a heist. So on and so on. 2. Make all the things you want players to do part of the game NOW - this one is obvious, and Miscast already discussed it, but if you want players to do something BIG (like invent a new spell), you either need to make it part of the normal session activities OR you need to give them a taste of the big goal. Maybe they can't build a whole-new spell, but they can modify an existing spell using the same systems as they would to make a new spell. Maybe they can't build a castle, but they CAN fortify their home town/keep and play around with those systems. Maybe the players can't own an entire starfleet, but they CAN have their own little spaceship. 3. Tailor the game to what the players want to do - When planning the game, ask each player what their main goal is, with the understanding that they can change the goal anytime. This gets players thinking about what they want for their endgame, and what "fantasy" they ultimately want to build towards. For Gradient Descent, I asked each player what space artifact they wanted from THE DEEP (the space dungeon in Gradient Descent), which provided them both a reason to go into THE DEEP and has informed the both of us what they want out of this game.

Rapidly becoming my favorite series! Props to Hank's chaos tattoo! Ink for the ink throne! Rhythm for the algorithm!

RPGs as Calvinball may be my new favorite metaphor.

Well this a fun group! Cheers for organizing this!

a lot of roguelikes like nethack are pretty dependent on being clever. like using a scroll of earthquak to cut off an entrance or poring a potion on your knife and stab someone with it to see what its effect is.

Really fantastic conversation. Especially enjoyed the variety of thoughts on dungeon size. I have to wonder about the pillar of players who enjoy character creation the most. I have a feeling that a lot of those players aren't at a table a lot. Character builds are analogous to DM world building -- it's something to do when you're not playing. And for those of us that haven't had the opportunity to play for awhile that's all we know.

How about making your own spells requires a bit of experimentation in the field - you make an educated guess on how to perform the spell and the correct components, then roll to see if it does what you think it does. The DM interprets the roll, and decides the outcome and from then onwards, doing those same actions to perform a spell with those same components always does that spell. So if the roll is bad, perhaps the range is not what was expected, or it has a slightly different effect.

Hi Ben, as said before, those collabs are awesome, keep doing them. It's the best RPG content in youtube right now. I know you can't read every comment, but, since PC games came into conversation, one of the designers of Darkest Dungeon (can't remember the name) talked, in some interviews about OldSchool D&D. Maybe that would be an interesting interview to make, about game design in general and the influence that D&D had in developing DD.

would love to hear a chat about solo rpging

@Sanguivore

3 жыл бұрын

Seconding this!

Literally my 3 favorite DND KZreadrs.

I thought the reduction in the campaign length and how the general people see it is also reflected in how the designers and publishers push it. Not to pick on them but rather use a specific example, look at how Paizo does their Adventure paths. Levels 1-20 in is monthly books. then their expectation is you start another level 1 character and another Adventure Path. The "long term goal" is the end of the Adventure Path.

Ben, please keep doing these. This was very cool

Must say again, these are great. Love the advice and varying opinions. I also hope we see a shift from the mega corporation. I love buying from individuals, like those on Etsy. Last year, I bought a handmade pen from an Etsy seller. I chose the wood, the metal and whether it was fountain or ballpoint. The seller kindly answered all my questions, and included a handwritten letter of instruction and care. It was such a personal, fun and satisfying way of buying something.

I enjoyed all the skateboarding analogies. I also got super stoked on the reference to Sean Sutter. For those wondering, Google Relicblade or Metal King Studio to check out Sean's stuff.

The Ultima story reminds me of a time where me and my friends were playing Rust and we painted a roulette sort of thing onto a spinning wheel and put it in a hut outside our base and ran a casino out of it. We even had one guy get so addicted he built a base near by so he could just spend all day playing it.

Dang, getting all the heavy hitters in here 👌

In a 4 year gamma world game now which is actually a continuation of a Star Frontiers game from the 90's...

This series is just incredible

People need to actually PLAY more games. I have run hundreds of different games over the years, and have learned so much.

Runehammer and Questing Beast!!! My dream came true!

The first thing I ran was Dragon of Icespire Peak, which I think is the best (or worst) example of a campaign that players level up very quickly. In my homebrew campaign the characters have leveled very slowly, and time passes in between most sessions, and always when they level up. They've gone from levels 1 - 4 in about 6 months of game time.

Really great ideas and conversation.

Love the skateboard analogy

Re: campaign length: The Old Masters group that I fell into in the 90s for over a decade started up in the 70s, and is currently playing online with me in 2021- sometimes, the group just *clicks*.