Harlan was brilliant,he could also be a viper when he wanted to be. I never got to meet him , but wished that I had.

How far Syfy has fallen.

Harlan's assertion that we are becoming ever more illiterate is proven beautifully by the comments. Everyone talking about Babylon five and Star Wars of all things, while no mention of Asimov, or A.E Van Voght, or any real science fiction literature. This is a perfect microcosm reflecting the state of the 21st century.

@paulonius42

8 жыл бұрын

+kyle whitehead While mocking people's comments for being illiterate, you should be more careful to spell Vogt's name correctly.

@larrymiller1370

5 жыл бұрын

Yeah it's 2 years later, but just wanted to say I'm a huge Star Wars fan and Babylon 5 is my favorite tv show of all time. That being said, my favorite authors are James Joyce, Thomas Pynchon, and William Burroughs, and I'm sure you've never read anything by those writers. And that's actually literature and not pulpy scifi stories written for prepubescent boys. I guess I'm more literate than you, huh? I mean you literally started a sentence with "Everyone talking about" but have the nerve to call people illiterate for enjoying science fiction in other mediums.

Note that Ms. Solow is introduced as a professor of Science Fiction AND Literature, as if the two have to be separated in the halls of academe. This is, of course not a knock on her. I had similar discussion about this regarding Jazz with an old professor of mine.

@christopherneelyakagoattmo6078

3 жыл бұрын

Yes. My Jazz ProfesSor was announced as a an expert in Jazz as well as... his Classical Doctorate, etc.. His doctoral thesis was about the presence of jazz- like nuance and themes in Classical Orchestral Music. Ugh.

Thank you for posting this, as I've been looking for a clip of it for a long while. This is all still wholly relevant.

"The Demolished Man," was an awesome book.

@tipoc

8 жыл бұрын

+pytko3 Indeed!

@andrewwilliams9599

3 жыл бұрын

The Stars My Destination is every bit as good.

This is terrific! I'd love to see the rest! Thanks for posting this!

Yeah, Forrest Ackerman was fond of bad puns and he invented the term sci-fi, so it had to be him Ellison referred to.

I believe it was the first book to win the Hugo Award for Best Novel, so yes, I would agree with Harlan's verdict on it. Also, it was the first novel that I've read that challenged the notion that a psychopath can only be dealt with through violent means.

When I met him 24 years ago he acted like a perfect gentleman who admittedly had strong opinions that he allowed anyone to agree or disagree with. He's not a saint but he's by no means an ogre IMHO!

3:08 Ellison didn’t even want to mention Forrest J. Ackerman by name 😂

What a beautiful man.

I echo the thanks that were already posted. It's always a pleasure to hear vintage Harlan on talk shows and seeing how much he could anticipate from society that power-brokers like Herb Solow refused to accept for the sake of the Almighty Dollar! Bring on Part Deux!

I remember this show.

Wonderful

Scifi Channel actually started out strong

@KentAllard The Late Forrest Ackerman was credited for coining the phrase "scifi."

Can't we just get along? I feel both types of books are read by different people - Some even by the same people. They are different. Sometimes, I want to read about the human condition. Other times, Dinocroc in Mars will do for the evening.

that was epic

1:06 if it can be written it can be filmed - stanley kubrick

thanks. part two should be coming up soon.

Harlan does have a legitimate gripe. I too feel that the waters of science fiction have been muddied by people who have no idea what real science fiction is. To me a good science fiction story should be based on a scientific principle and the characters in the tale should be intertwined in unusual ways with that principle. The tale should make the reader sit back and think about that principle. Let real science fiction open your mind.

Good point! Transformers the First at least attempted to tell a story while T the 2nd was all about how many explosions they could cram into a film!

I agree. I look forward to part 2 of this. As crotchety and ornery as people like to accuse Harlan Ellison of being, he is an idealist. He knows that big money will dumb down big concept every time and is pissed off about it. Same too for Straczynski and Herb Solow.

IOW Sturgeon's Law (94% of EVERYTHING is C-R-A-P) still holds. Sadly I agree. The irony of the success of Watchmen was that Moore IN HIS OWN WORDS didn't intend it to revitalize the superhero genre but to destroy it!

Harlan grabbing his left arm makes me nervous. This couldn't have been but a couple years after his heart attack.

"It's redundant and meaningless to say 'But that's the business.'" I would have said "it's self-serving and cynical" but I strongly agree.

Some part i am Harlan ellison the conservaite version

@KentAllard Since "scifi" was the topic of discussion and Harlan had a love/hate relationship with Forry for decades, I think that's a safe bet.

So am I. Good old debates.

I would add 2001 - Drama with Science presented as Art in space

Yes I did. I see you did as well. Your name is member able from one of his videos.

Wow, so that is where JMS got Bester as the psycorp honcho.

no just The Word for World is Forest by Ursula K. Le Guin, go read it.

2001: Definately. Silent Running: Open to debate. The central premise was that "there were no room for trees to grow on Earth, so let's plant them on orbital space stations until they prove to be too expensive to sustain and then destroy the stations!" The fact that a sociopathic forest ranger could see the stupidity of such a premise should have tipped off the filmmakers, as moving as the story was on an emotional level.

Wow, is that Roger Lodge from Blind Date?!

@harleykman Perhaps that was the case at that time, but I have no doubt that he was having difficulty selling a new SF series to other networks before and after TNT's temporary bailout. Also, before TNT bought B5, JMS attempted to sell it to Fox who turned it down in favor of "Space: Above & Beyond."

And Avatar.

Seems that some of these people on the panel are confusing Science Fiction with fantasy space opera like Star Wars. Many of us enjoy explosions, adventure etc in Science Fiction, but we also still know that all that excitement that Science either hard or soft is still the core to all of that.

1:56 MASS EFFECT

Look at Alien again. You have the stressful dynamic of the crew dealing with a crisis situation and how the predatory but intelligent nature of the creature forces them to work together to their limits to deal with it. In Aliens, it's more pyrotechnics and muscle-flexing on the part of the marines with Ripley trying to explain the danger they were facing and being ignored by them while they were dying. Suspense vs. mindless violence.

@DreddPirateRoberts

5 жыл бұрын

Alien is sci-fi/suspense. Aliens sci-fi/action. Mind you, I'm using "sci-fi" as it was originally intended: an abbreviation for "science-fiction."

Gotta disagree with Ellison's take on Aliens. On the surface, it seems like a straight-away action film, but it goes a lot deeper than that if you really pay attention.

@danteshydratshirt2360

6 жыл бұрын

I think you are giving it more credit.I do like the film better than Alien btw

If Harlan hated Star Trek so much back in the good ol' days, I wonder what he'd shave to ay about the new shows (Discovery and Picard) if he were still around to rant about things!

@andrewwilliams9599

3 жыл бұрын

The only thing I know for sure is that he would praise Michael Chabon for his novels, like The Mysteries of Pittsburgh and The Wonder Boys.

Either he had and dismissed them as "noisemakers" and "musical hacks" or he had deeper prejudices that prevented him from enjoying what these geniuses had produced. While I too enjoyed Trek since I was 6, I could understand how literary legends like Ellison could attribute media SF fan-based hooliganism, that he has been a victim of since he first addressed the "scifi vs SF" problem at conventions in Media SF publications, to SFX worship replacing solid speculative storytelling.

Man, Harlen, back of from Herb Solow! lol!

When will part 2 be posted?

Do you happen to have the next part?

@Psydecar I like my entertainment like Star Trek and Battlestar Galactica (though I don't think I'd ever read the tie-in books), and I'll even take it over the dryer hard science fiction out there, but with the attention the stuff gets, the public perception of SF is that of pure entertainment with no serious literary merit which tends to annoy a lot of writers in the field.

@cdreid9999: I can see your point but as far as the term"Sci-Fi" goes Forrest ackerman coined the phrase in the early 1950's. Therefor it doesn't predate Harlan's existence. LOL! While Ackerman may have used the phrase personally years earlier I don't think it was was used in popular culture until late 50's.

The film "Forbidden Planet" challenges the thesis here. It had all of the bells and whistles of a monster and explosions and sex appeal, but delved into the greatest danger to all Life- the substrate of irrationality and bestiality that even the most-advanced and godlike creature must be built upon. So the circle can be squared when the writer of a sci-fi film knows how to use the pyrotechnical tricks of the medium to convey not just whizbang but wisdom. "Id... id... id!" said Morbius.

Ellison complains, "It (sci-fi) keeps people stupid." He's right. It's designed to corral those among us who haven't bought into the whole Sports universe, with its statistics and brackets and bragging.

or properly adapted The Word for World is Forest by Ursula K. Le Guin instead of ripping off only half of it

When exactly did the abbreviation for"science-fiction" become a different genre?

@AdmiralBison

4 жыл бұрын

Exactly this is some nonsense and what it REALLY sounds like is marketing failure by Hollywood execs, as they keep failing trying appeal to the wrong demograph to maximize box office $$$.

By "he" I meant Solow, of course. JMS is probably licking his wounds after TNT contributed to the destruction of "Crusade" along with potential future B5 spinoffs, "Lost Episode direct-to-DVD projects" notwithstanding!

I don't think that's the point that Harlan was making. I don't think that he was emphasizing the importance of technology per se, he was emphasizing how technology affects humanity which is completely different. IMHO showing off futuristic gun's effectiveness as a kill-toy would be Scifi while studying how the gun affects the mind of the gunman as well as the people that he attacks AND defends is SF. One example "Terminator/Predator/Aliens vs. Soldier/Demon With a Glass Hand/A Boy and his Dog.

is the host the same guy from blind date?

Yvonne looks so much younger than Herb. Is she his first wife? I know Herb has three daughters, who were already alive when the original Star Trek was made.

Actually, the literacy rate is 86% IN THE us.

So regardless of Clarke's spiritual elements present in his work is he still a Hard Science Fiction author be definition? I would like to think so since not everything has to be perfectly explained in a Science Fiction novel. What is your take on Clarke, is he a Sci-fi author or a Science Fiction author? Granted he is a scientist that gave us Satellites, and the Geosynchronous Orbit which Satellites travel around Earth.

so,if the term 'Sci Fi' diminishes the idea of Science fiction as literature,then what does the acronym 'SF' do?

@Elric33239 yes but is that who he refers to? it sounds like it intended for something else

It's the argument between "hard" and "soft" science fiction as well isn't it?

Forrie Ackerman

@cdreid9999 So...does this mean you disagree with Ellison's argument on the term?

More JMS than Solow. While he could see how low-brow the film industry was becoming, all he did was point to the "pretty money" and said "Live with it, guys!" Fatalism or yielding to a self-fulfiling prophecy? You decide!

No wonder Unholywood can't write a decent story anymore. Naw, just shove more superhero sequels down our throat that are all about effects, not story. Unholywood is purposely dumbing people down, they are not in the business of movie making they're in the business of money making.

Where did you receive this data? If you're referring to a statistic that states that 86% of the US reads at least on a 6th grade level, then I would say that "literacy" and "intelligence" are relative. If you're presenting a higher educational level, then I'd like to read the source. It would be great if this were true but somehow the "6th grade level stat" would probably be closer.

@Nothingisasitseems Not really. Ellison wasn't a "hard sf" writer himself. It's more about writing science fiction with respectable literary merit that should hold true to works of any genre. Much of the more literary science fiction isn't "hard" (and in fact a lot of hard science fiction suffers from good ideas, but poor writing and weak characters. Though their defenders will tell you that the science is the only thing that should matter, which I disagree with).

Yeah, I know....I forgive him though.

@stilanas Who? Harlan Ellison?

HA! HA! HA!

Yes, rather *sips port, adjusts monocle*

@andrewwilliams9599

3 жыл бұрын

I say, old son--topping day, what?

Science Fiction as practiced in most movies and tv shows is little science and mostly broad fiction mixed with laser rifle weapons, spaceships, armies and wars. STAR TREK is actually Space Drama-not pure Science Fiction. STAR WARS is Space Opera. Science Fiction as such exists in novels and short stories. What you get on movie and tv screens is an amalgamation of senationalist elements that have nothing to with science fiction as it really is.

Yvone Fern looks a little like a female version of Eddie Izzard.

It's in the all too cute assonance of the "sci-fi" that makes it fail as a cheap substitute for "science fiction". SF is a definitely more digestible abbreviation, but only AFTER we respectfully spelled it out once. Give SCIENCE FICTION its due! There is no long "i" in fiction. As an adult, I don't want to eat my "veggies" either. Give me a damn vegetable; hold the "gies", please!

1:24 Science Fiction is filmable (you are probably only considering an audience that do not like it and do not understand Science Fiction in general), perhaps its traditional story telling conventions, overuse of tropes and lack of creativity by Hollywood that needs to evolve. Studio execs have a bad track record of misjudging the audience, interfering and screwing up the creativity direction of films by trying to appeal to ALL demographs to make massive profits and don't know how to market it to them. A famous example is Martin Scorcese who HATES comic book films. So what? Are comic book films trying to cater to people like Martin Scorcese or are they more focused on the established lores, characters and stories that fans who for decades enjoy, understand and follow the medium? To people who avoid watching comic book films stopped it's appeal to their core audience and make it "un-filmable"? I personally don't believe Science Fiction and "Sci-Fi" are separate nor is the more cerebral aspects of Science Fiction mutually exclusive to excitement. Science Fiction is a broader in that encompasess many sub-genres like hard Sci-Fi (cerebral), steam punk, cyber punk (The Matrix), apocalyptic, futuristic, contemporary, historic ('The Prestige'), alternative history, comedy (Orville), horror (Alien), social commentary (Star Trek original series)

Alfred Bester's "The Demolished Man" is one of the great books of the 20th century??? Uh... okay.

@andrewwilliams9599

3 жыл бұрын

Yes. And so are The Stars My Destination, Rogue Moon, The Space Merchants, Stranger In A Strange Land....

The fuck is roger lodge doing there?!

Science Fiction is a literary form which is supposed to combined a scienftic mindset and rationale in a fictional construct. SF is like any other fiction-no different from so called literary fiction. Scifi is a non-literary form that encompasses such things as Space Opera (Star Wars) and Space Drama (Star Trek) that is found in tv and film. Scifi has been used as an all purpose euphamism which is demeaning and insulting.

@john683011 You find a man or a woman, who wants to make this world better, who is kind and rationale. How do you call him? An idealist! Of course! Because the other people don't want to make themselves better and actually do about the worlds shape. They are realists.

KeeperOfProphecies Because "Alien" is pretty much an adaptation of A. E. van Vogt and "Aliens" is just a monster movie with high production values. The fact that Cameron did "Aliens" isn't exactly a redeeming quality for most self respecting science fiction fans. It sure the hell wouldn't be if I were Ellison, anyways.

If you look at the context of this film, you're right. If you study the subtext, you'll probably notice the connections with Shakespeare's "The Tempest" regarding the isolated experimenter and his beautiful daughter who's ignorant of corporeal love and the intelligent machine that was based on an alien technology that could be viewed as magic that even the experimenter couldn't properly control in the end, causing his tragic death. The pyros were there but that just "filled the seats" IMHO.

I don't get why Harlan goes after Aliens, but, not Alien. They're both, at their core, alien-encounter movies and don't deal with technology like Blade Runner, or even The Fly, do.

@Ruspapa

4 жыл бұрын

Because of "Terminator" dispute.

I've heard that they're finally going to adapt "John Carter: Warlord of Mars!" I can't wait for the reviews from clueless brain drains who are going to accuse them of ripping off "Avatar!"

a bad pun from a bad punster and we both know who he was what and who is Ellison talking about?

@andrewwilliams9599

3 жыл бұрын

Forrest J Ackerman--everyone called him Forry. He was the ultimate SF/horror archivist, although Harlan came a close second. He and Harlan were friends but agreed to disagree about the neologism sci-fi. I'm in Harlan's corner on this one. SF? OK. Science fiction? Better. Speculative fiction? Also works.

Or he was arguing that jazz isn't worthy of critical analysis like CLASSICAL MUSIC which is pure BS IMHO! Between the high-brow snobbery and low-brow anti-intellectualism in the US of A is it any wonder that we as a society are over 50% illiterate and bookstore chains are driving out the more respectable independent stores?!?

This show didnt last nearly long enough

@Hanshot Yeah, I agree....the musical thingy he did with Neil Patrick Harris reversed my opinion of him. He is MASSIVELY overrated though....and honestly....I think BSG is too. I can hear those thumbs downs a comin' already.. It was the best sci fi show of its time, yes...but it didn't have much in terms of competition for that title--that much you have to give me.

science fiction is literature scifi are shitty tv shows like Star Gate and Firefly and bad paperbacks

Everyone is un-necessarily analyzing the term "Sci-Fi." The term "Sci-Fi" is just an abbreviation for "Science Fiction" Harlan Ellison is a more entertaining speaker, playing the out-spoken angry man role than he is a good writer. He wrote one of the worst episodes of Tales From The Darkside (Dijin No Chaser) and has been carrying a chip on his shoulder over Star Trek & other shows who modify his work and make it better.

Starfate And Firefly are...really crappy, agreed. Most of Star Trek is, too, I have to say. My picks for "best" would be either B5 or Farscape. Peronal pick would be Farscape, but B5 is a close second.

So this is why I hate Will Smith......well not the man, just his Science Fiction work.

And on what planet is The Demolished Man any more science based than Star Wars or Alien? Thye Demolished Man is a very poor example. Mind reading? but only when they have permission? It's a bloody murder mystery, not science fiction!